Bhaiya, Malhar Sunao
Hamid Mahmood August 6, 2004
#129 Posted by HP on August 9, 2004 9:59:55 pm
dost-mittar Sahib,
I admire you for realizing that Pakistan and India are two different countries and nobody should use one criterion to judge both countries. That is what I have been trying to say for sometime but people just won’t give up their preconceived notions of pride and accept that born out of one, both countries have taken different paths of development, sibling rivalry notwithstanding, both will continue to traverse a different path. With the passage of time differences would overwhelm similarities.
Pakistan’s problems and issues are entirely different than Indian problems. Most Pakistanis have not grown up with neighbors of different religions and different cultures attempting to survive in tough economic environments that are common to both countries. Fortunately, I grow up in an area where Hindus were my buddies. I learned to understand that it is not a major issue, if my Hindu friends support Indian cricket team.
With that in mind, I also know that barring some Mullah shouting in the mosques in cities in Sindh, Hindus are a vibrant community. I also know with mullah, bigotry is on the rise in Pakistan and I am not as in touch with the daily life as I used to be in my younger days.
However, your stats don’t match the logical test. Your 20-22% looks good if you take former East Pakistan into the picture.
With a huge population shift between 1947 and 51, the numbers changed more drastically then you can even think of.
Hindus were about 20% of Sindh Population in 1947. Sindh accepted about 2 to 3 million refugees in 1947 and that changed the population numbers as now Hindu percentages were reduced by incoming Muslims. A good portion of Hindu left Sindh (what a tragedy!) from 1948 to 1951. So the base numbers to compare Hindu population should be 1951 census and not 1947 numbers as they were too fluid statistically.
I think if you look at numbers from 1951 onwards there is no significant change of Hindu Population in Sindh or in the current Pakistan, percentage wise. Again you also need to consider population growth rate that is much higher in Muslims families than in Hindu families.
I will try to get all the numbers for you but if you look at the whole situation and research it yourself you will get to the bottom of it.
I am not going to bring in Punjab as both Punjabs pretty much were cleared out of competing religions within a few months of partition.
Balochistan never had 20% Hindu population. Most of the Hindus were in areas near Sindh around Jacobabad. Hindus still own significant number of retail stores and businesses in that area.
I admire you for realizing that Pakistan and India are two different countries and nobody should use one criterion to judge both countries. That is what I have been trying to say for sometime but people just won’t give up their preconceived notions of pride and accept that born out of one, both countries have taken different paths of development, sibling rivalry notwithstanding, both will continue to traverse a different path. With the passage of time differences would overwhelm similarities.
Pakistan’s problems and issues are entirely different than Indian problems. Most Pakistanis have not grown up with neighbors of different religions and different cultures attempting to survive in tough economic environments that are common to both countries. Fortunately, I grow up in an area where Hindus were my buddies. I learned to understand that it is not a major issue, if my Hindu friends support Indian cricket team.
With that in mind, I also know that barring some Mullah shouting in the mosques in cities in Sindh, Hindus are a vibrant community. I also know with mullah, bigotry is on the rise in Pakistan and I am not as in touch with the daily life as I used to be in my younger days.
However, your stats don’t match the logical test. Your 20-22% looks good if you take former East Pakistan into the picture.
With a huge population shift between 1947 and 51, the numbers changed more drastically then you can even think of.
Hindus were about 20% of Sindh Population in 1947. Sindh accepted about 2 to 3 million refugees in 1947 and that changed the population numbers as now Hindu percentages were reduced by incoming Muslims. A good portion of Hindu left Sindh (what a tragedy!) from 1948 to 1951. So the base numbers to compare Hindu population should be 1951 census and not 1947 numbers as they were too fluid statistically.
I think if you look at numbers from 1951 onwards there is no significant change of Hindu Population in Sindh or in the current Pakistan, percentage wise. Again you also need to consider population growth rate that is much higher in Muslims families than in Hindu families.
I will try to get all the numbers for you but if you look at the whole situation and research it yourself you will get to the bottom of it.
I am not going to bring in Punjab as both Punjabs pretty much were cleared out of competing religions within a few months of partition.
Balochistan never had 20% Hindu population. Most of the Hindus were in areas near Sindh around Jacobabad. Hindus still own significant number of retail stores and businesses in that area.
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#130 Posted by chulbuliimli on August 9, 2004 10:34:55 pm
Hamid_81,
I am tempted to call you an idiot as well since you believe in equality but I’ll let it go this time.
But dear boy, lame excuses/explanations do not make an effective argument.
You haven’t answered yet as to what you are doing abroad if your country is such a secure haven.
Nobody is denying Gujarat. It happened and might happen again.
The point is you are not expressing your pain and anger and sympathy at your hapless prosecuted Muslim brethren here; you are being vitriolic.
Believe me Indian Muslims prefer to be prosecuted here in India than in Pakistan by their own on being muhajirs, Shias, Qadiyanis, non-Muslims etc., etc.
A writer’s responsibility is not just to write about facts but also offer solutions. His work should function as a soothing balm.
Your story brings back painful memories, yes but it also evokes repulsion.
That’s not what you are supposed to do. Next time try to assuage hurt feelings and not stoke them.
You are forgiven this time for you are still a kid, after all.
Perhaps you have some personal grievances to settle having lost a dear one in communal riots here; that would explain your extreme feelings.
Its not to say, Indian Muslims, whether or not they have suffered a loss, lack spine.
The feelings of anger, frustration, rebellion, and revenge do overcome them too; but they are only exercising restrain. That by no means should be misconstrued as cowardice for remember, God is with those who are patient.
Take care.
I am tempted to call you an idiot as well since you believe in equality but I’ll let it go this time.
But dear boy, lame excuses/explanations do not make an effective argument.
You haven’t answered yet as to what you are doing abroad if your country is such a secure haven.
Nobody is denying Gujarat. It happened and might happen again.
The point is you are not expressing your pain and anger and sympathy at your hapless prosecuted Muslim brethren here; you are being vitriolic.
Believe me Indian Muslims prefer to be prosecuted here in India than in Pakistan by their own on being muhajirs, Shias, Qadiyanis, non-Muslims etc., etc.
A writer’s responsibility is not just to write about facts but also offer solutions. His work should function as a soothing balm.
Your story brings back painful memories, yes but it also evokes repulsion.
That’s not what you are supposed to do. Next time try to assuage hurt feelings and not stoke them.
You are forgiven this time for you are still a kid, after all.
Perhaps you have some personal grievances to settle having lost a dear one in communal riots here; that would explain your extreme feelings.
Its not to say, Indian Muslims, whether or not they have suffered a loss, lack spine.
The feelings of anger, frustration, rebellion, and revenge do overcome them too; but they are only exercising restrain. That by no means should be misconstrued as cowardice for remember, God is with those who are patient.
Take care.
#131 Posted by Urstruly on August 10, 2004 5:27:54 am
It took 25 years for Indian government to start processing (not actually paying compensation) the claims of unfortunate victims of Bhopal industrial disaster. Thousands perished meanwhile hoping to see a better day in their life coughing blood and vomiting their inards out. The interesting thing is that Union Carbide paid the agreed compensation of 450+ million dollars to Indian government some 20 odd years ago. Where is the interest on that 440 million dollars accumulated over 20 years - nobody knows, nobody asks. And we are supposed to beleive that this government is compassionate towards a hated minority? Is this government supposed to protect its minority? One has to live in cukkooland to have such a supposition. Is there a wonder, 80,000+ Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood and copuntless women and children raped by its army and no one in the country dares ask, why? Should Muslim minority trust this government? If Babri Masjid Massacre and Gujrat Genocide are not enough to open their eyes then what is? Therefore, it makes more of a compelling case, for Indian Muslims to arm themselves for the coming armagadon - the next mahabharat - the next ram lila that is bound to be written with Muslim blood. I would appeal to the good conscience of all compassionate Hindus (if such an animal exists) to help their Muslim fellow human beings to arm themselves. The writ of Indian government to protect Muslims has failed not once but it has failed every day of every year for the past 57 years. It is in Indian government`s own interest to have a safe and protected minority. A well armed, well trained Muslim citizen who is confident of the safety of his family is the best protection India will have to save itself from disintegration. The only thing that is keeping India intact is the inherent politics of anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan hatered. Keep in mind that negetive politics can go only so far only for so long.
#132 Posted by dost_mittar on August 10, 2004 5:36:00 am
stuka#126:
``I completely disagree Dost Mittar.``
I wonder if you understood me. Stating a reality does not mean agreement or support of it; if I say that Bush`s attack on Iraq had a widespread support, it does not mean that I supported it either.
``I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.``
I think that you have known my views long enough to know that so do I. But denying that this is increasingly the reality of India today (it wasn`t always so!) is burying one`s head in the sand, as anyone glancing through sulekha.com`s newshopper would know.
HP#129:
This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.
My guess is that the buddies you grew up with were middle class hindus. A sindhi friend of mine from Bombay married off his sister to one such Pakistani back in the 70s. The hindus that suffer the most are the bheels, kolis and other low-caste sindhis. They suffer from the triple whammy of discrimination by upper-caste hindus, opression of rapacious vaderas and the police suspicious of them because of their close proximity to the Indian border.
I too had the same impression about Balochistan until I read a report in The Friday Times of March 23-29. The following is an excerpt:
``In Balochistan, Hindus were 22 percent of the population in 1941; today they are only 1.6 percent, according to the 1998 census report, which may be 27,000 Hindus in all. After 1947, their exodus from the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan was considerable while they tended to stay in the Baloch areas. The exodus was the characteristic of the entire population of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan. There was a tendency among the lower caste Hindus not to migrate. The pattern of settlement today is such that Sindhi-speaking Hindus live in the Baloch areas bordering Sindh while further West near Quetta and the region called Jhalawan the Seraiki-speaking Hindus call themselves Punjabi.
Hindus in Balochistan: The latest facts about the Hindu community in Balochistan have come to light in a report by Minority Rights Commission of Pakistan titled Religious Tolerance in Balochistan: Myth and Reality (2003) by Akram Mirani. The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas.``
``I completely disagree Dost Mittar.``
I wonder if you understood me. Stating a reality does not mean agreement or support of it; if I say that Bush`s attack on Iraq had a widespread support, it does not mean that I supported it either.
``I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.``
I think that you have known my views long enough to know that so do I. But denying that this is increasingly the reality of India today (it wasn`t always so!) is burying one`s head in the sand, as anyone glancing through sulekha.com`s newshopper would know.
HP#129:
This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.
My guess is that the buddies you grew up with were middle class hindus. A sindhi friend of mine from Bombay married off his sister to one such Pakistani back in the 70s. The hindus that suffer the most are the bheels, kolis and other low-caste sindhis. They suffer from the triple whammy of discrimination by upper-caste hindus, opression of rapacious vaderas and the police suspicious of them because of their close proximity to the Indian border.
I too had the same impression about Balochistan until I read a report in The Friday Times of March 23-29. The following is an excerpt:
``In Balochistan, Hindus were 22 percent of the population in 1941; today they are only 1.6 percent, according to the 1998 census report, which may be 27,000 Hindus in all. After 1947, their exodus from the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan was considerable while they tended to stay in the Baloch areas. The exodus was the characteristic of the entire population of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan. There was a tendency among the lower caste Hindus not to migrate. The pattern of settlement today is such that Sindhi-speaking Hindus live in the Baloch areas bordering Sindh while further West near Quetta and the region called Jhalawan the Seraiki-speaking Hindus call themselves Punjabi.
Hindus in Balochistan: The latest facts about the Hindu community in Balochistan have come to light in a report by Minority Rights Commission of Pakistan titled Religious Tolerance in Balochistan: Myth and Reality (2003) by Akram Mirani. The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas.``
#133 Posted by Foad_Shah on August 10, 2004 6:39:11 am
THE ONLY WAY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF PERSECUTION OF MINORITIES IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN IS TO START WITH OUR SELVES. WE, SHOULD, FIRSTLY, GIVE THE MINORITIES THE RESPECT THE DESERVE AND GO AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTALIST PARTIES WHO SPREAD MALICE AGAINST THE MINORITIES. iF THE MAJORITY IN THE RESPECTED COUNTRIES, DO NOT LEARN TO RESPECT AND GIVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES TO MINORITIES IN ALL SECTORS OF LIFE, THE PROBLEM WILL REMAIN UNSOLVED.
HERE ARE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE STATE GOVERNMENT OF GUJRATBY WORKERS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:
Improve security in violence-affected areas and relief camps by increasing the number of police officers-including officers from minority communities-and the number of outposts where needed. Where necessary, army units should continue to be deployed to keep the peace.
· Suspend all police officers implicated in the attacks, pending investigation.
· The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:
. The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.
. · The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.
. · The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.
. · Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks. The investigations should also focus on:
· Instances in which government documents noting the religious affiliation of persons were given to groups responsible for inciting violence or conducting abuses.
· Malfeasance in investigating and arresting leaders involved in attacks.
· Excessive use of police force, including executions of Muslims.
· The arbitrary detention and filing of false charges against Muslims.
· Ensure that state police register and investigate all cases of communal violence regardless of the religious background of the victim. Police posts should be set up in relief camps expressly for this purpose. The national government and government of Gujarat should establish civilian review boards or civilian ombudsman committees composed of judges and lawyers to examine whether cases are being adequately investigated. Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.
· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.
· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force. The U.N. Basic Principles on the Use of Force or Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials emphasize that the use of force and firearms should be in consonance with respect for human rights and that deadly force should not be used against persons unless ``strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.``
· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. This campaign should reaffirm legal provisions, explain what recourses are available to minorities, and publicize the procedures for filing a First Information Report (FIR). This campaign should also include public service announcements aimed at educating the population through efforts to raise awareness of minority rights and condemnation of religious violence and extremism.
· Implement state and federal relief packages for victims of communal violence-including disbursement of compensation for family members of victims killed in the violence, the reconstruction of homes and places of business, and the provision of food rations and other relief supplies for all persons displaced or dispossessed by the communal violence in a nondiscriminatory manner and in accordance with international human rights law and the U.N. Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement.
· Restore without delay all documents necessary for the enjoyment and exercise of legal rights that were lost or destroyed in the course of the communal violence. These include passports, personal identification documents, and birth, marriage, and education certificates.
HERE ARE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE STATE GOVERNMENT OF GUJRATBY WORKERS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:
Improve security in violence-affected areas and relief camps by increasing the number of police officers-including officers from minority communities-and the number of outposts where needed. Where necessary, army units should continue to be deployed to keep the peace.
· Suspend all police officers implicated in the attacks, pending investigation.
· The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:
. The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.
. · The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.
. · The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.
. · Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks. The investigations should also focus on:
· Instances in which government documents noting the religious affiliation of persons were given to groups responsible for inciting violence or conducting abuses.
· Malfeasance in investigating and arresting leaders involved in attacks.
· Excessive use of police force, including executions of Muslims.
· The arbitrary detention and filing of false charges against Muslims.
· Ensure that state police register and investigate all cases of communal violence regardless of the religious background of the victim. Police posts should be set up in relief camps expressly for this purpose. The national government and government of Gujarat should establish civilian review boards or civilian ombudsman committees composed of judges and lawyers to examine whether cases are being adequately investigated. Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.
· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.
· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force. The U.N. Basic Principles on the Use of Force or Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials emphasize that the use of force and firearms should be in consonance with respect for human rights and that deadly force should not be used against persons unless ``strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.``
· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. This campaign should reaffirm legal provisions, explain what recourses are available to minorities, and publicize the procedures for filing a First Information Report (FIR). This campaign should also include public service announcements aimed at educating the population through efforts to raise awareness of minority rights and condemnation of religious violence and extremism.
· Implement state and federal relief packages for victims of communal violence-including disbursement of compensation for family members of victims killed in the violence, the reconstruction of homes and places of business, and the provision of food rations and other relief supplies for all persons displaced or dispossessed by the communal violence in a nondiscriminatory manner and in accordance with international human rights law and the U.N. Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement.
· Restore without delay all documents necessary for the enjoyment and exercise of legal rights that were lost or destroyed in the course of the communal violence. These include passports, personal identification documents, and birth, marriage, and education certificates.
#134 Posted by kaurasach on August 10, 2004 6:39:11 am
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#135 Posted by ELUSIVE on August 10, 2004 6:39:12 am
Asalamoalaiqum,
It is a pity that instead of finding solutions and providing recommendations to solve the crisis of minorities being persecuted in both countries, interactors have indulged in filth and hate speeches.
No one is saying that non-Muslims are better off in India or Muslims are better off in Pakistan. But, this can not make one negate the atrocites. the pics and quite revealing articles posted by Foad_Shah are quite eye opening and so is the pic provided by Kaurasuch . So, now we know that unfortunately such injustices are being undoubtly carried out. The question is what to do about it?
I , as a resident of Karachi, Pakistan, from my own experience has seen a Hindu Head Girl in my college days, ( she was elected by the majority Muslim students). She wasa n intelligent girl and is currently doing her M.B.B.S in Pakistan only.
In Law school, we had a few other Hindu`s in our university all of whom were popular, intelligent and respected by teachers.
Some of the top models in Pakistan are also Hindu for eg. Sunita Marshall and Mohini.
In the Club i go to, there are various Hindu members and who are quite at ease with interacting with Muslims and vice versa. And , most of them are quite successful business men.
Atleast in Karachi, furthermore, i know that Christians hold a lot of respect. Majority of Karachite`s describe Christians as sweet and down to earth people. A few of my own teachers were Christians and Parsees and highly respected too.
But this does not mean that atrocites against non-Muslims have not been carried out in Pakistan. I , as a Pakistani Muslim admit this and it pains me that some Muslims are so blind to not realise what they have been doing.
This goes on to indicate that if atrocites have been carried out against non-Muslims, then it has taken place in poor , undeveloped areas , where a majority of illiterate people reside who rely on fatwas from hypocrite Mullahs solely.
These people have not given the correct knowledge regarding the treatment of non-Muslims in Islam. They have not been told that the injunctions of the Qur`an enjoin affection and kindness to the good and peace-loving peoples of every religion, as well as the verses which permit marriage to the women of the People of the Book, with all that Allah says concerning marriage—``and He has put love and mercy between you`` (30:21)—and the verse concerning the Christians: ...And thou wilt find those who say, `Surely we are Christians.` to be nearest to them (the Muslims) in affection....(5:85 (82))
It has not been explained to them by their elders and scholors that the Arabic word for peace is salaam—a word included in the Arabic/Muslim greetings. Islam is Arabic for surrender or submission. Muslim means one who submits. For many non-Muslims, the word Muslim is synonymous with angry mobs and suicidal bombers. Such stereotyping of Muslims is patently wrong. Most Muslims are ordinary, peace-loving people with their own set of dreams and problems and should be treated with the same respect we give to any other fellow human being.
According to a famous religios scholor:
``For the record, let me say that Jesus Christ taught his followers to ``love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.`` (Injil, Matthew 5:44 NKJV). Notwithstanding Jesus’s clear teaching and example, over the centuries, much violence and evil has been committed by those who call themselves ``Christians``. Just as there are many who call themselves Muslims who do not live according to the teachings of Muhammad, it is safe to say that many who call themselves ``Christians`` do not live according to the teachings of Christ``.
So, the Muslims who do not treat others, kindly and justly can not also be truly classifies as ``MUSLIMS>``
They have not been told that Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. A Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says, ``O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya`) your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.`` (al-Tawbah 9:23) In a similar way the Qur`an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from the oppression of the so-called Muslims. The Prophet -peace be upon him- said that he himself will be the plaintiff of a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non- Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah says, ``Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers… (Al `Imran 3:28) ``O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?`` (al-Nisa` 4:144)
They have not been told Non-Muslims in an Islamic state do posses special rights irrespective of the fact that they are minorities or majorities. Under any circumstances it is not permissible to burn holy places of non-Muslims or books or to abuse them, by Muslim individuals, groups or government agencies. However, non-Muslims are not allowed to abuse any Prophet, to be little or insult Islamic laws. In case a non-Muslim insults Prophet Muhammad, he shall be tried in the court under blasphemy laws.
The Pakistani government, though still has a long way to go is gradually implementing more and more laws for the protection of non-Muslims.In January, Pakistan`s government ended an electoral system that discriminated against religious minorities by compelling them to vote for just 10 non-Muslim seats in the overwhelmingly Muslim Parliament. Experts believe that the decision to scrap the old system could pave the way towards establishing a secular political culture in the country.
Even though despite the introduction of the new joint electorate system, recent attacks against non-Muslims in Islamabad, may explain why not a single non-Muslim is contesting some 272 general seats of the national legislature. However, some 50 Hindu and Christian candidates were running for office on general seats in the provincial legislatures of the southern Sindh and eastern Punjab province.
In conclusion i just want to point out that the author, should not indulge in foul language or name calling and try to prove his points with research and analysis. And lastly, and most importantly , let us set an example on chowk. Let all non-Muslims and Muslims ensue open dialogue and try to find solutions and try to be friends and not enemies. Let us for once be sincere.
Kind regards.
It is a pity that instead of finding solutions and providing recommendations to solve the crisis of minorities being persecuted in both countries, interactors have indulged in filth and hate speeches.
No one is saying that non-Muslims are better off in India or Muslims are better off in Pakistan. But, this can not make one negate the atrocites. the pics and quite revealing articles posted by Foad_Shah are quite eye opening and so is the pic provided by Kaurasuch . So, now we know that unfortunately such injustices are being undoubtly carried out. The question is what to do about it?
I , as a resident of Karachi, Pakistan, from my own experience has seen a Hindu Head Girl in my college days, ( she was elected by the majority Muslim students). She wasa n intelligent girl and is currently doing her M.B.B.S in Pakistan only.
In Law school, we had a few other Hindu`s in our university all of whom were popular, intelligent and respected by teachers.
Some of the top models in Pakistan are also Hindu for eg. Sunita Marshall and Mohini.
In the Club i go to, there are various Hindu members and who are quite at ease with interacting with Muslims and vice versa. And , most of them are quite successful business men.
Atleast in Karachi, furthermore, i know that Christians hold a lot of respect. Majority of Karachite`s describe Christians as sweet and down to earth people. A few of my own teachers were Christians and Parsees and highly respected too.
But this does not mean that atrocites against non-Muslims have not been carried out in Pakistan. I , as a Pakistani Muslim admit this and it pains me that some Muslims are so blind to not realise what they have been doing.
This goes on to indicate that if atrocites have been carried out against non-Muslims, then it has taken place in poor , undeveloped areas , where a majority of illiterate people reside who rely on fatwas from hypocrite Mullahs solely.
These people have not given the correct knowledge regarding the treatment of non-Muslims in Islam. They have not been told that the injunctions of the Qur`an enjoin affection and kindness to the good and peace-loving peoples of every religion, as well as the verses which permit marriage to the women of the People of the Book, with all that Allah says concerning marriage—``and He has put love and mercy between you`` (30:21)—and the verse concerning the Christians: ...And thou wilt find those who say, `Surely we are Christians.` to be nearest to them (the Muslims) in affection....(5:85 (82))
It has not been explained to them by their elders and scholors that the Arabic word for peace is salaam—a word included in the Arabic/Muslim greetings. Islam is Arabic for surrender or submission. Muslim means one who submits. For many non-Muslims, the word Muslim is synonymous with angry mobs and suicidal bombers. Such stereotyping of Muslims is patently wrong. Most Muslims are ordinary, peace-loving people with their own set of dreams and problems and should be treated with the same respect we give to any other fellow human being.
According to a famous religios scholor:
``For the record, let me say that Jesus Christ taught his followers to ``love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.`` (Injil, Matthew 5:44 NKJV). Notwithstanding Jesus’s clear teaching and example, over the centuries, much violence and evil has been committed by those who call themselves ``Christians``. Just as there are many who call themselves Muslims who do not live according to the teachings of Muhammad, it is safe to say that many who call themselves ``Christians`` do not live according to the teachings of Christ``.
So, the Muslims who do not treat others, kindly and justly can not also be truly classifies as ``MUSLIMS>``
They have not been told that Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. A Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says, ``O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya`) your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.`` (al-Tawbah 9:23) In a similar way the Qur`an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from the oppression of the so-called Muslims. The Prophet -peace be upon him- said that he himself will be the plaintiff of a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non- Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah says, ``Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers… (Al `Imran 3:28) ``O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?`` (al-Nisa` 4:144)
They have not been told Non-Muslims in an Islamic state do posses special rights irrespective of the fact that they are minorities or majorities. Under any circumstances it is not permissible to burn holy places of non-Muslims or books or to abuse them, by Muslim individuals, groups or government agencies. However, non-Muslims are not allowed to abuse any Prophet, to be little or insult Islamic laws. In case a non-Muslim insults Prophet Muhammad, he shall be tried in the court under blasphemy laws.
The Pakistani government, though still has a long way to go is gradually implementing more and more laws for the protection of non-Muslims.In January, Pakistan`s government ended an electoral system that discriminated against religious minorities by compelling them to vote for just 10 non-Muslim seats in the overwhelmingly Muslim Parliament. Experts believe that the decision to scrap the old system could pave the way towards establishing a secular political culture in the country.
Even though despite the introduction of the new joint electorate system, recent attacks against non-Muslims in Islamabad, may explain why not a single non-Muslim is contesting some 272 general seats of the national legislature. However, some 50 Hindu and Christian candidates were running for office on general seats in the provincial legislatures of the southern Sindh and eastern Punjab province.
In conclusion i just want to point out that the author, should not indulge in foul language or name calling and try to prove his points with research and analysis. And lastly, and most importantly , let us set an example on chowk. Let all non-Muslims and Muslims ensue open dialogue and try to find solutions and try to be friends and not enemies. Let us for once be sincere.
Kind regards.
#136 Posted by ballukhan on August 10, 2004 6:39:28 am
``Now balluKhan. I think you are an insecure failure......``
It is time for me to do some LOL-s kid! I pity Rais Khan for being reduced to a gali ka K in Pakistan. He deserves much more- but he did not have the patience to hold on to his arrogance. He despised everyone including Vilayat Khan and you are learning just the wrong things from him including his Khushti with the Daand. You deny the fact as to why he sings Ghazals in Pakistan whereas he palys Sitar in India or USA. LEt us face the reality that it is now even more difficult to practice Classical Music which does not have sanction from the Paki Ulemas. So Rais Khan has to run to USA to play Sitar and all those lovely Hindustani Raags ( What is the meaning of ``Hindustani Raag``? Hint- Read the first 5 letters!)
You are a kid before me because I have learnt Dhrupad and Khayal even before you were born ???????? So let me know whether you have figured out how to play the mizrab bols in sapat taans in the first lesson I taught you.
And I am an expert in an instrument which Rais Khan`s father used to play mainly?? (try to figure out)
It is time for me to do some LOL-s kid! I pity Rais Khan for being reduced to a gali ka K in Pakistan. He deserves much more- but he did not have the patience to hold on to his arrogance. He despised everyone including Vilayat Khan and you are learning just the wrong things from him including his Khushti with the Daand. You deny the fact as to why he sings Ghazals in Pakistan whereas he palys Sitar in India or USA. LEt us face the reality that it is now even more difficult to practice Classical Music which does not have sanction from the Paki Ulemas. So Rais Khan has to run to USA to play Sitar and all those lovely Hindustani Raags ( What is the meaning of ``Hindustani Raag``? Hint- Read the first 5 letters!)
You are a kid before me because I have learnt Dhrupad and Khayal even before you were born ???????? So let me know whether you have figured out how to play the mizrab bols in sapat taans in the first lesson I taught you.
And I am an expert in an instrument which Rais Khan`s father used to play mainly?? (try to figure out)
#137 Posted by bongdongs on August 10, 2004 7:31:05 am
foad_shah,
This is not to say all that can be done is being done, but though the efforts of people like Teesta Seetalvad of ``Communalism Combat`` and the supreme court of India some of these things have taken place. Just to keep you up to date:
- The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:
- The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.
Response:
NHRC recommendation of handing cases over to CBI has been implemented, several high profile cases such as the Bilkis Bano, Best Bakery and Naroda Patiya are being investigated by CBI.
· The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.
Response:
Unfortunately Gujarat judiciary seems to have no interest in doing justice. Under supreme court orders the Bilkis Bano and Best Bakery cases have been shifted to Maharashtra. A further 20 odd riot related cases are pending before the Gujarat high court, lets see what happens with them.
· The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.
Response:
This was done at the refugee camps.
· Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks...Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.
Response:
6 policemen are being prosecuted in the Bilkis Bano case. In Naroda Patia case a prominent Bajrang Dal leader has been charge sheeted, but as always in these cases I am no too optimistic about politicians being convicted.
· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.
Response:
CBI has carried out substantial forensic investigations to generate supporting evidence in the cases it is investigating.
· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Response:
I am not aware of any efforts in this direction. Some news reports indicate that ``Gujarat Samachar`` should be the prime target for such investigation. I dont know if it is possible under current laws.
· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force...
Response:
This is a issue bigger than just Gujarat. Note the recent Manipur incident involving the Assam Rifles.
· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. ..
Response:
These are issues bigger than just the riots, I dont know what we can do. Polarization of Gujarati society seems to be total and irreversable in the near future.
On other issues anybody who knows better please add.
This is not to say all that can be done is being done, but though the efforts of people like Teesta Seetalvad of ``Communalism Combat`` and the supreme court of India some of these things have taken place. Just to keep you up to date:
- The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:
- The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.
Response:
NHRC recommendation of handing cases over to CBI has been implemented, several high profile cases such as the Bilkis Bano, Best Bakery and Naroda Patiya are being investigated by CBI.
· The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.
Response:
Unfortunately Gujarat judiciary seems to have no interest in doing justice. Under supreme court orders the Bilkis Bano and Best Bakery cases have been shifted to Maharashtra. A further 20 odd riot related cases are pending before the Gujarat high court, lets see what happens with them.
· The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.
Response:
This was done at the refugee camps.
· Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks...Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.
Response:
6 policemen are being prosecuted in the Bilkis Bano case. In Naroda Patia case a prominent Bajrang Dal leader has been charge sheeted, but as always in these cases I am no too optimistic about politicians being convicted.
· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.
Response:
CBI has carried out substantial forensic investigations to generate supporting evidence in the cases it is investigating.
· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Response:
I am not aware of any efforts in this direction. Some news reports indicate that ``Gujarat Samachar`` should be the prime target for such investigation. I dont know if it is possible under current laws.
· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force...
Response:
This is a issue bigger than just Gujarat. Note the recent Manipur incident involving the Assam Rifles.
· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. ..
Response:
These are issues bigger than just the riots, I dont know what we can do. Polarization of Gujarati society seems to be total and irreversable in the near future.
On other issues anybody who knows better please add.
#138 Posted by HP on August 10, 2004 8:38:17 am
#132 by dost-mittar
“This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.”
I respect that.
I read that dailytimes article and could only laugh at the writer. Balochistan is a tribal society and if there were 20% Hindu in 1947, then that had to be the largest tribe in Balochistan. One of the biggest tribe in Balochistan, Bugti; is not 20% of the Balochistan population. Going by Balochistan population in 1947, we are talking about a million people and I doubt that they disappeared within a few years without any trace. Further, if you research this little bit you will find that there never were many Hindu in India or in Pakistan of Baloch ancestry. Hindus in Balochistan were all of Sindhi origin.
Almost all Baloch trace their ancestry from Kurds in Iran and Iraq.
However, I don’t know much of that is true. If there were any conversions, they must have happened couple of hundred years ago.
“This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.”
I respect that.
I read that dailytimes article and could only laugh at the writer. Balochistan is a tribal society and if there were 20% Hindu in 1947, then that had to be the largest tribe in Balochistan. One of the biggest tribe in Balochistan, Bugti; is not 20% of the Balochistan population. Going by Balochistan population in 1947, we are talking about a million people and I doubt that they disappeared within a few years without any trace. Further, if you research this little bit you will find that there never were many Hindu in India or in Pakistan of Baloch ancestry. Hindus in Balochistan were all of Sindhi origin.
Almost all Baloch trace their ancestry from Kurds in Iran and Iraq.
However, I don’t know much of that is true. If there were any conversions, they must have happened couple of hundred years ago.
#139 Posted by Foad_Shah on August 10, 2004 8:38:18 am
Thanks Bong Dongs! It cetainly increased my knowledge. Well, atleast now we know that steps have been carried to prevent and counter such trajedies.
#140 Posted by Foad_Shah on August 10, 2004 8:38:18 am
HERE ARE FURTHER RECOMENDATIONS TO THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA WITH REGARDS TO THE TRAJEDY IN GUJRAT. THESE RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE BEEN COMPILED BY THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANISTAION OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:
To the Government of India:
The government of India should ensure that the government of Gujarat investigates and prosecutes perpetrators of violence and where necessary, cooperates with external agencies such as the CBI in doing so. The government should also take appropriate measures to ensure the security and safety of all citizens of Gujarat, including assistance to those who have been displaced or dispossessed by the violence. In addition, Human Rights Watch recommends that:
Repeal the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), which stands in violation of international due process norms. The Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance (POTO), that preceded POTA, has been discriminatorily applied against Muslims in the state of Gujarat and elsewhere.
· Establish state branches of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the National Commission for Minorities (NCM), and the National Commission for Women (NCW) in Gujarat, with adequate financial resources and powers to initiate prosecution where appropriate. The 1993 Protection of Human Rights Act should also be amended so that the NHRC is not excluded from inquiring into matters already pending before state commissions.
· Implement recommendations on police reform made by the National Police Commission in 1980.
· End impunity for past campaigns of violence against minorities. That is, prosecute and punish those found responsible for serious offenses during the anti-Sikh violence in Delhi in 1984 and the post-Ayodhya violence of December 1992 and January 1993. The recommendations of the Srikrishna Commission on the post-Ayodhya violence in Bombay should be implemented without delay. Police responsible for excessive use of force should be prosecuted; those who having the power and duty to stop the violence but did not intervene should be punished accordingly.
· Request and encourage United Nations relief agencies, including the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF), the World Food Programme (WFP), the World Health Organization (WHO), and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), as well as international humanitarian organizations to provide relief and rehabilitation assistance to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence, without discrimination.
· Provide U.N., international humanitarian organizations, and local nongovernmental relief agencies full, free, and unimpeded access to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence.
· United Nations human rights bodies and experts should be invited and encouraged to visit India:
· The Working Group on Arbitrary Detention.
· The special rapporteur on torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
· The special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions.
· The special rapporteur on violence against women.
· The special rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
· The Special Representative of the United Nations secretary-general on internally displaced persons.
· Include information on the recent communal violence in India`s future periodic reports to human rights treaty bodies established for the:
· International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (submission due August 8, 2002)
· International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (overdue as of December 31, 2001).
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-01.htm#P195_30463
To the Government of India:
The government of India should ensure that the government of Gujarat investigates and prosecutes perpetrators of violence and where necessary, cooperates with external agencies such as the CBI in doing so. The government should also take appropriate measures to ensure the security and safety of all citizens of Gujarat, including assistance to those who have been displaced or dispossessed by the violence. In addition, Human Rights Watch recommends that:
Repeal the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), which stands in violation of international due process norms. The Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance (POTO), that preceded POTA, has been discriminatorily applied against Muslims in the state of Gujarat and elsewhere.
· Establish state branches of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the National Commission for Minorities (NCM), and the National Commission for Women (NCW) in Gujarat, with adequate financial resources and powers to initiate prosecution where appropriate. The 1993 Protection of Human Rights Act should also be amended so that the NHRC is not excluded from inquiring into matters already pending before state commissions.
· Implement recommendations on police reform made by the National Police Commission in 1980.
· End impunity for past campaigns of violence against minorities. That is, prosecute and punish those found responsible for serious offenses during the anti-Sikh violence in Delhi in 1984 and the post-Ayodhya violence of December 1992 and January 1993. The recommendations of the Srikrishna Commission on the post-Ayodhya violence in Bombay should be implemented without delay. Police responsible for excessive use of force should be prosecuted; those who having the power and duty to stop the violence but did not intervene should be punished accordingly.
· Request and encourage United Nations relief agencies, including the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF), the World Food Programme (WFP), the World Health Organization (WHO), and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), as well as international humanitarian organizations to provide relief and rehabilitation assistance to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence, without discrimination.
· Provide U.N., international humanitarian organizations, and local nongovernmental relief agencies full, free, and unimpeded access to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence.
· United Nations human rights bodies and experts should be invited and encouraged to visit India:
· The Working Group on Arbitrary Detention.
· The special rapporteur on torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
· The special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions.
· The special rapporteur on violence against women.
· The special rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
· The Special Representative of the United Nations secretary-general on internally displaced persons.
· Include information on the recent communal violence in India`s future periodic reports to human rights treaty bodies established for the:
· International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (submission due August 8, 2002)
· International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (overdue as of December 31, 2001).
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-01.htm#P195_30463
#141 Posted by hamid_81 on August 10, 2004 9:17:17 am
Thanks Chulbuliimli. Well, for starters you have mentioned all these problems in Pakistan and I agree with these problems. I have written about these problems. But the thing is I also realize that being a muslim I am part of a Global nation of people called Muslims and their plight is my plight. Now, the whole intention of this story, was just that I felt like writing about something and I wrote about it. As a writer I don`t have to offer solutions. I can very well be a mullah if I have to. And I can offer solutions like, do Jihad against Hindus, destroy India. But these are childish and absurd. Now, I took a different approach. I just wrote what I felt and thought about. You don`t like it you have every right to say so, but in a civil manner. When people start cursing and saying things like ``Thoo``, please don`t expect me to sit tight and not loose my cool. However my upbringing has been in a good Muslims family so I had the guts to apologize for my usage of language. Other just show what there background is. But back to the main topic of my discussion. As, a writer I will write about what I feel. Nobody can deny what I have written about. It happens. Now, if I would have given a solution that would be meddling into Indian affairs, and that is not my territory. As it is not any Indian`s territory to tell us what to do. Simple.
If I would have would written about the same thing in Pakistan, everybody would be happy. But I wrote about Human Rights violation in India, whey did people get mad? Because I touched a sore issue, which hurts because it is true? Well, too bad. Because people world-wide will talk about this. It is open for discussion for everyone. So I don`t understand what the problem, is. There is rascism in India against Muslims, just like there is rascism in Pakistan against non-Muslims. So I am not denying it. But, rest assured I will write more in such touchy issues. If feel like it, there is no stopping me. I am free to write and think what I feel like.
Well, now to your question as to what I am doing in USA. Well, right now working. Just graduated. I never said that Pakistan is a safe Haven for everyone. If you read my first article, The RiverBank, you will understand why I came here. I don`t have anything more to say about this. But, look at my story for content and structure. What I have written is true. It happens. End of it. I don`t go further to say what should be done to curb it or what is the Indian policy. Not my job. So, hey, don`t take it and distort it.
H
If I would have would written about the same thing in Pakistan, everybody would be happy. But I wrote about Human Rights violation in India, whey did people get mad? Because I touched a sore issue, which hurts because it is true? Well, too bad. Because people world-wide will talk about this. It is open for discussion for everyone. So I don`t understand what the problem, is. There is rascism in India against Muslims, just like there is rascism in Pakistan against non-Muslims. So I am not denying it. But, rest assured I will write more in such touchy issues. If feel like it, there is no stopping me. I am free to write and think what I feel like.
Well, now to your question as to what I am doing in USA. Well, right now working. Just graduated. I never said that Pakistan is a safe Haven for everyone. If you read my first article, The RiverBank, you will understand why I came here. I don`t have anything more to say about this. But, look at my story for content and structure. What I have written is true. It happens. End of it. I don`t go further to say what should be done to curb it or what is the Indian policy. Not my job. So, hey, don`t take it and distort it.
H
#142 Posted by malik99 on August 10, 2004 9:17:17 am
stuka # 112 - here is your reasoning why I should not talk about the plight of muslims in India - ``You are Pakistani.``
actually, that is all the more reason for me to talk about it. Pakistan, by a stroke of fortune or misfortune, shares a border with India. Whatever happens on the eastern border has an impact on our senses and sensitivities. Treatment of Indian Muslims is not an ``internal affair``. Besides the brotherly love we feel for them, there is also these international human rights treaties that India is subject to (as selectively as they are enforced). The ``secular`` India cannot hide the blood on its hand of 100,000 muslim kashmiris, several thousand sikhs, Asaamese, and other minorities.
These are FACTS. And the only way Indians seem to deal with these facts is by mud slinging or by doing cut / paste of lengthy articles bashing Pakistan.
Stuka, its time that people like you accept that this evil exists in India. It needs to be exorcized.
Now before you get into the diatribe of ``what about minorities in Pakistan``, I just want to remind you again that this board is in regards to the treatment of Muslims in India. There can be another board to talk about the injustices in pakistan.
actually, that is all the more reason for me to talk about it. Pakistan, by a stroke of fortune or misfortune, shares a border with India. Whatever happens on the eastern border has an impact on our senses and sensitivities. Treatment of Indian Muslims is not an ``internal affair``. Besides the brotherly love we feel for them, there is also these international human rights treaties that India is subject to (as selectively as they are enforced). The ``secular`` India cannot hide the blood on its hand of 100,000 muslim kashmiris, several thousand sikhs, Asaamese, and other minorities.
These are FACTS. And the only way Indians seem to deal with these facts is by mud slinging or by doing cut / paste of lengthy articles bashing Pakistan.
Stuka, its time that people like you accept that this evil exists in India. It needs to be exorcized.
Now before you get into the diatribe of ``what about minorities in Pakistan``, I just want to remind you again that this board is in regards to the treatment of Muslims in India. There can be another board to talk about the injustices in pakistan.
#143 Posted by friend on August 10, 2004 5:31:08 pm
Stuka,
You may be able give me a small help for one of my friends. Are you prem vohra of Sulekha?
You may be able give me a small help for one of my friends. Are you prem vohra of Sulekha?
#144 Posted by plats8 on August 10, 2004 5:31:09 pm
Hamid_81,
``Millinos of people, even spies of Ravi Shankar and other stupid people, come and
listen to him. His techniques and baaj is beayond everybody.``
Now that requires a good LOL. Just curious how many spies Ravi Shankar has in his
payroll. Perhaps he is outsourcing the espionage to other disgruntled sitar players....
man, this is beyond juvenile.
Ballukhan #136,
What did Mohammad Khan play ? Veena ? I always thought he was a sitar player as
well, and of the Imdad-khani gharana to boot.
By the way, can someone please tell me how many innocent Kashmiri civilians
the Indian government has killed ? I keep seeing all sorts of numbers - it used to
hover around 70,000 for a while; now Urstruly claims 80,000 and malik99 100,000 on
the same day. Clearly, both cannot be true, and some bean-counter must be keeping
tabs. Before we start acting virtuous, let us get the numbers right.
``Millinos of people, even spies of Ravi Shankar and other stupid people, come and
listen to him. His techniques and baaj is beayond everybody.``
Now that requires a good LOL. Just curious how many spies Ravi Shankar has in his
payroll. Perhaps he is outsourcing the espionage to other disgruntled sitar players....
man, this is beyond juvenile.
Ballukhan #136,
What did Mohammad Khan play ? Veena ? I always thought he was a sitar player as
well, and of the Imdad-khani gharana to boot.
By the way, can someone please tell me how many innocent Kashmiri civilians
the Indian government has killed ? I keep seeing all sorts of numbers - it used to
hover around 70,000 for a while; now Urstruly claims 80,000 and malik99 100,000 on
the same day. Clearly, both cannot be true, and some bean-counter must be keeping
tabs. Before we start acting virtuous, let us get the numbers right.
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