Bhaiya, Malhar Sunao

A trip from Lucknow to Gujarat for a concert !! hmmm

``He was very proud of being a Hindustani, and even introduced his music at
concerts as Hindustani classical``

What would he rather introduce the music as ?

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Revisiting the pains of riots

Manto`s Khol Do said all in two words what the author was trying to achieve in his graphic description of the rape:
``The Hindus disregarded this and kept practicing KamaSutra, on a poor helpless, innocent Muslim girl......
What does this graphic description of the horrors of riots and pain on the riot victims achieve? The victims could very well be caught in some Shia Sunni anti Ahmediya riots in some other country. This brings us back to the question- Does the rioting goons have any religion? No, they are just criminals who loot and riot and rape and justify in the name of religion.
So who wants to emphasise that they have a religion? Only two type of persons emphasize that these acts were done in the name of religion
- Firstly, the rioters themselves and
-Those who control or incite the rioters!

The second type of persons would like to create memorials for a muslim riot victim or a hindu riot victims so that the coulderin of hate keeps on burning. Riot stories like above are frequently cited by the rioters in order to justify their acts of `revenge` - I am sure those who have experienced these communal riots can testify how such stories which EMPHASIZE the religion of the rioter keep the riots and counter riots occuring. Revisiting the pains of riots and then inciting the people is what the perpetrators of riot (and their collaborators) would like to achieve. And this piece does exactly the same - It unwittingly becomes a piece of the rioter`s propoganda. And this is exactly the ``moral`` support that the Pakistani muslims try to provide - citing riot stories to incite and make IM spite their fate at being a hindustani!!!
This riot story does not make us hate the riots - it tries to make us hate the religion and the national identity of the rioters. It also attempts to spite the IM`s identity precisely in the manner Rais Khan, the sitarist, does nowadays after having migrated to Pakistan :

``That day he had sat on a Jai-Namaz and cried. Cried to his Allah, and implored that He should call him instead of Piyari. That was the first time he had looked up with tearful eyes and asked Him why He had created him as a Muslim in Hindustan? He was very proud of being a Hindustani, and even introduced his music at concerts as Hindustani classical. But that day he felt helpless, frustrated and angry at his Allah for making him a Hindustani.``

P.S- Rais Khan had been trying hard to get his Indian nationality back desperately- but to no avail. Nowadays he sings Qawali and Gazals for the Paki audiences.

Hi. To all the Indians reading this. It is a fact that Muslims are killed, humiliated and disgraced in India. So please accept it. No reason to say that in India everybody co-exists fine. They do not. And that is why Muslims are burned, killed and raped whenever there is a riot. Accept the fact that even thought people think India is the world`s largest democracy, it is burdened with the blood of hundreds of Muslims. And Ballu Khan Sahib, for you I have just one thing to say. Ravi Shankar got the Bharat Ratna, but Vilayat Khan never did, even though you and I both know he was superior in every way. And don`t even say anything against Rais Khan. The day you come near him in playing the sitar, I will do a nazar of $1000 to you. Rais khan is un-surpassable. He sings Ghazals, because he knows that even if he does so, his respect in Pakistan will not go down. He is brilliant, and will remain
un-surpassable. No question about that. If you think so low, pick up the sitar, and make a recording which is his equivalent. I bet you fingers will be sore before you can even play even one of his ``choot Taans`` in sur.
H
H

#4 by hamid_81 on August 6, 2004 11:40pm PT

regarding this small challenge of yours- Firstly, I do not seek to emulate Rais Khan Saheb in his taans because at times he loses control over the `chand` which makes his taan look disjointed pieces when he reaches the mukhda. I love the roundness and completeness of Nikhil Banerjee`s taans which I try to emulate. However, I can assure you that I can play all sorts of tans real fast.

Ofcourse not- No democracy can be blamed for the riots. Flogging democracy in India because of communal riots is a favourite past time of some Pakis. As regards Ustad Rais Khan Saheb singing Ghazals in birthday parties- the poor guy has to do this in order to survive. Let us face the fact that Ustad Rais Khan has been desperately trying to get back his Indian citizen ship because he DOES NOT HAVE ANY APPRECIATIVE AUDIENCES IN PAKISTAN. That was contrary to whatever he thought when the Paki officials incited him to migrate and then to communally bad mouth the entire country. Infact, he was univocally condemned by musicians from Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, Amjad Ali, Hafiz Ali to Asad Ali.
As regards the Ustad Vilayat Khan and Ravi Shankar thing- I know the details very well. Let us not forget that getting awards has less to do with the talent or musical capabilities of a musician- it is more of a reflection of the PR abilities of the musician- and Ustad scored poorly on this account due to his arrogant aloofness- the same holds for Ustad Rais Khan as well.
Ofcourse, awards are tainted every where in the world by nepotism, regionalism, pecuniary considerations, casteism or religious consideration- but to singularly turn it into a communal issue is incorrect. However, I do hope that Ustad Rais khan gets back his Indian citizenship.

But suddenly after some time Piyari’s condition had started worsening. She had started loosing weight, constantly had a fever, and lost her appetite as well. A doctor’s examination revealed that she had AIDS. Very severe and it was consuming her rapidly.

Hmm, must be the world record for the fastest time from HIV infection to full blown AIDS, in general its known to take around 8-11 years ... why mess around with things you don`t understand, stuff like AIDS, Democracy, condition of muslims in India, Riots, the process of award of Bharat Ratna etc. etc. ... better to stick to the Sitar, and concentrate on that IT career

hamid_81,
There are certain facts about Pakistan too...
This could have happened anywhere.
And the AIDS virus takes its toll in six months?

Hamid #4,

Let me put this gently - next time, write about something that you know; and you
don`t know much about being an Indian Muslim.

Secondly, Rais Khan unsurpassable ? You`ve got to be seriously kidding !!

``The day you come near him in playing the sitar, I will do a nazar of $1000 to
you.`` - what does Ballukhan`s sitar talent or lack thereof have anything to do
with Rais singing Ghazals ? By the way, Vilayat`s khandaan specialzes on playing
fast taans - that includes Rais. There are several others (including Ravi Shankar) who
emphasize other aspects of playing the sitar. Just asserting that ``Vilayat was
better than Ravi Shankar in every way`` doesn`t make it correct.

First of all this was one of the most horribly written, manipulative stories I have ever read. No character development, cliched, and clearly written with and for an agenda.

Secondly, yes, India has riots in which Muslims and yes, even Hindus die but only someone who has not lived in India could write this simplistic piece of trash that is devoid of complexity or sensitivity.

I am an Indian Muslim and I, along with, the majority of Indians believe in the dream of India. Gujarats happen, which is a sad fact. But India is still a pluralist democracy and proud of being one. Yes, riots happen in India, terrible, awful events, but that is part and parcel of life and the experiment of a large democracy. You have to be an Indian to understand that Muslims in India are less obsessed about this stuff than are Muslims outside India. My young niece is visiting from Mumbai these days and while she understands the problems of being a minority that is not the uppermost thought in her mind. She lives in a pluralisitic, multicultural society and feels richer for it. Despite other cultural and age gaps, she feels the same way as I do and as her 82 year old grandfather, my dad, does. This is a ghar ki baat for us. We will solve these issues as Indians, together.

Has the author ever gone to India? Experienced being an Indian Muslim? I have and am. So are my family and a network of friends. We live as Indians not just as Indian Muslims. Riots are an awful tragedy but it is our collective, national tragedy that we want to and will solve them ourselves. Riots should not be tools for propoganda by others outside India.

If this had been a sensitively written portrayal of one rape victim in the Gujarat riots that would have been fine. But this agenda-driven, predictable and simplistic piece did not deserve to be published at chowk. Chowk editors I am disappointed.

Jawahara can be an apologist as much as she likes; here is another Indian Muslim.
The Article was written before Gujarat was turned into the killing Fields.

INDIAN MUSLIMS - AN OPPRESSED MINORITY
By Abdul Haq
India has a unique experience of Muslim minority. A dominant minority in the medieval period became a dominated minority, all of a sudden with the advent of British rule in India. This sudden change resulted into complex problems. Partition of sub-continent in Aug 47 converted the Muslim community of India into ‘Pakistani Muslims’ and ‘Indian Muslims’. This was a great shock as far as Indian Muslims are concerned. The rulers of Yesterday, now had to live under the ‘Hindu rule’. Fifty years having passed, the Muslims who opted to stay in India are still getting a raw deal in every sphere of life. They are still drowned in the scourge of poverty and backwardness. They continue fighting the ever-hunting spectra of communal riots and threats to their religious and cultural identity. The sense of insecurity experienced by the Indian Muslims in the post partition period has been compounded in recent years by the state repression and terrorism under the ‘draconian’, Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevension) Act (TADA). Under this act 7,9332 people, mostly Muslims were detained and tortured during 1990-95 across the country. Though the Act has been repealed, yet about 5000 persons, mostly Muslims, are still in jails.
Birth of Hindu Revivalism. The Hindu reformers of the 19th century were the pioneers of Hindu renaissance. foremost among them was Raja Rammohan Roy (1772-1833) the founder of Brahmo Samaj, which represented the first throb of modernism in Hinduism. A great admirer of Muslim thought, he had been deeply influenced by his study of Islamic works (including Quran) and by Sufism. Yet at heart he was a staunch Hindu. His deepest yearnings were to turn the Hindus back to the Vedas. He was thus one of the founders of modern Hindu nationalism. The message of Rammohan Roy was carried further by Dayananda-Saraswati, a Gujrati Brahman (1824-1883), who openly raised the slogan ‘India for the Hindus.’ According to him, Hinduism was to be the sole religion of the sub-continent, and the Hindus its sole masters. The Muslims were foreigners and must be pushed out. He devised a new weapon to fight the Muslims. It was the weapon of ‘Shuddhi’ or individual conversion of Muslims to Hindu faith. After the partition of India in Aug 47, thousands of Muslims were butchered cold blooded and forced to leave India. Since then, Hindu militant Bal Thackeray of Shiv Sena and other militant Hindu organiztions are of the opinion that Muslims have their own homeland in the shape of Pakistan (though they do not accept it from their hearts), therefore they have no right to live in India.
Alienation of Muslims. In terms of numbers, the Muslims are only next to the Hindus, totalling 95.2 million (1991 census) and constituting about 12 percent of the population, yet they are considered by the Hindus even less important than the Jains and Buddhists who are only 0.43 and 0.41 percent of the population respectively (1991 census). A prominant Hindu writer S. Harrison admits that the dominant note in the Hindu attitude towards Muslim today is that, ``Hindus have a natural right to rule in modern India as a form of long overdue retribution for the sins of the Mughal overlords. It is not enough that unified state with a Hindu majority, clearly dominant over a Muslim minority now reduced to 12 percent, has been established at long last in the Indian sub-continent. The fulfilment of Indian nationalism requires an assertion of Hindu hegemony over the Muslims of the subcontinent in one form or the other.`` The cumulative outcome of all this is that according to Jai Prakash Narayan, ``The Muslim population has been so much cowed and demoralized that they are not acting according to their convictions. They are afraid that if they expressed their real feelings, their loyalty will be suspected.``
Interference in Muslim Religion. Apart from being made to suffer a host of disabilities, political, cultural and economic; the Indian Muslims have often been subjected to a campaign of interference with their religion as well. It usually takes the form of slanderous attacks on Islam made in school text books, or in the press, desecration of mosques and shrines, or deliberate incitement of feelings of religious hatered against the Muslims. In most of the Hindu dominated Indian states, Hindu religious beliefs, philosophy and methodology have been introduced into the text books in the name of Indian culture. This is to an extent that a glance through the officially prescribed school text books leaves an impression that those responsible for them regard India (a multi religious country) as the home of Brahmans and attach value only to their deities, temples, religious customs and practices.
Desecration of Mosques and Shrines. Countless incidents can be cited of the desecration of mosques by the Hindu communalists during the last few decades. In 1961, the Indian Rehabilitation Minister made the claim that all the mosques and graveyards had been resorted to the Muslims. Refuting this statement, Maulana Hifzur Rahman produced a long list of mosques and graveyards not restored to the Muslims but had been auctioned by the Rehabilitation department. Some of the names of mosques and shrines mentioned in the list are Masjid Qazi Serai (near Thana Mehrauli), Masjid Begampur Khurd (near Kalu Serai), Masjid Chuna Mandi, Masjid Mantola Pahrargang (Delhi), Masjid Qabrastan Golebazar, (Thana Reading road, Delhi), Masjid Thana Civil Lines Delhi.Qabrastan village Ladha Serai, Mehrauli, Qabrastan near Dargah Hazrat Khwaja Qutbuddin), Qabrastan behind Thana corporation office, (Mehrauli), Qabrastan East of Eidgah, (Mehrauli), Qabrastan Gurgaon road, Qabrastan Gole Market, Thana Reading Road, (Delhi), and Qabrastan Motia Khan, Pahargang (Delhi).
Tragedy of Babri Mosque. The 16th century historic Babri mosque was razed to ground by thousands of Hindu fanatics in Ayodhya, (UP) on 16th Dec 92. According to Indian media reports, the Hindu Zealosts and India’s one of the largest Hindu fundamentalist political party BJP are again threatening to build a grand temple on the rubble of this mosque. Hindu fundamentalists openly announce that they would, ``Purify India of Muslim remnants.`` It was during 1949 when Babri Masjid was first raided. A group of vandals entered the mosque and placed the idol of Ramlallah. The successive Indian governments patronized the Hindu fundamentalists under different garbs, which ultimately turned into an uncontrollable demon.
Responsibility of the tragedy It is an established fact that the government of India did not take any action to disperse the mob despite the fact that it was aware of the heinous designs of the unholy gathering. Instead of saving the mosque from destruction a number of government officials were reported to have watched the scene gleefully, inciting the mob to deliver a final blow to bring down the structure. The reluctance of government to either call in the army or Central Reserve Police to protect the mosque, spoke of understanding between Shiv Sena and the Union government of the Congress. Reports indicated that the assault on the mosque was effectively abetted by the guards. An Indian journalist Yuvraj Mohite, while recording his statement in the court of Mumbai said, ``Bal Thackeray, founder of Shiva Sena ordered the massacre in Dec 1992 after the demolition of Babri Mosque. The double-dealing Congress Ministry of the then Prime Minister Narasimha Rao at the centre did almost nothing to Prevent the distruction of 450 years old Babri Mosque by the BJP-VHP and other anti Muslim elements``. ‘The Statesman’ of new Delhi (2 Dec 92) reported, ``The VHP and Bajrang dal cadres were taught demolition methods by a retired Brig of the Indian Army in a month long training camp in a Hindu village in Gujrat State and that the State government had full Knowledge of it``. Some Indian Newspapers reported that India’s intelligence agencies had informed Narasimha Rao government’s Home Ministry about the specially trained squads raised by the BJP and VHP cohorts to destroy the mosque but the then Home Minister, Chavan, showed utter indifference and hypocracy.
BJP vs Indian Muslims. The Upsurge of Hindu fundamentalism in the states under the BJP’s rule, Rajisthan, Haryana, East Punjab and Delhi has been a source of serious concern to the Muslim minority there. But the resurrection of the BJP’s rule over Utter Pradesh, India’s most populous state with a sizable Muslim community, since late Sep this year has sent a shiver of apprehensions among the Muslim minority. As the top ranking BJP leader and the man behind the tragedy of Babri Mosque, Kalyan Singh is now again in power in this state. The hard line Chief Minister of Maharashtra, Manohar Joshi, a member of the BJP’s ruling echelon, punished the state government secretary for cultural affairs, Govind Swaroop, a broadminded civil servant, for including Mr. Jinnah (Quaid-e-Azam) in a list of India’s freedom fighters for a TV documentary film and for ranking him with Mr.Gandhi and Nehru in the fight against the British. Shiv Sena, is a Nazi style communal outfit so intense in its hatred towards Muslims that its fascist guru, Bal Thackeray, forbade the Pakistani cricket team from playing in its power base city of Mumbai a few years ago. In order to promote the Hindutva brand of militant Hindu fundamentalism, the BJP led state government of Rajisthan organized a massive celebration on 18 Jun 97 of the 421st anniversary of the ‘Battle of Haldighat’ to honour Maharana pratab as a Hindu hero for his war against Akbar, the Mughal emperor. An Indian Hindu journalist, C.P Bhambhri, in New Delhi’s ‘Hindustan Times’ of 31 Jul 97 comments, ``The BJP, RSS, VHP and other allied organisations, without any shadow of doubts are using the culture and history of India to Promote the concept of a Hindu nation which was a victim of Muslim rulers and their purpose is to consolidate Hinduism around a specific religious ethos selectively chosen by political leaders`` .He further writes that ``The BJP hate list of Muslims continues to unify the Hindus against their religious enemy as revealed by Indian history, the BJP will like to re-write the constitution for establishing a strong Hindu state``.
Replacement of Muslim names by Hindus’. The Maharashtra government’s hostility to Muslims under the BJP- Shiv Sena ministry has been so blatant in recent years that the old towns bearing Muslim names are being systematically given Hindu colour. The historic city of Aurangabad, once ruled by Muslims has been named as ‘Sambhajinagar’ to honour the family of the anti Mughal Shivaji. Similarly a very old city of Osmanabad is being given a Hindu name. Eliminating the Muslim names of many other towns is on the Shiv Sena’s agenda.
Anti-Muslim roits. Anti-Muslim roits are a common feature in India. Some of the recent ones are as follows:-
1. In the state of Gjurat, which the BJP ruled till Sep 96, the Muslim minority has been incessantly terrorized and victimized. Mumbai’s ‘Economic and political weekly’ of 26 Jul 97, published horrifying accounts of the murder of many Muslims in the village of Kukas in Mahesana district last June. On 29 Jun, truckloads of armed Hindu ‘chaudharies’ attacked the Muslims in kukas, hurling filthy abuses on them, burnt their houses and hacked to death with knives many of them.
2. In many districts of Gujrat, there are pockets of 25 to 30 Muslim families who are subjected to periodic terrorization and arson. Teenage Muslim girls from poverty-stricken peasant families are either forcibly bought or kidnapped for prostitution in Bombay or Smuggled to oil rich gulf states for slavery.
3. Deploring the plight of Muslims in Gujrat, an Indian journalist Satyakam Joshi, wrote in Mumbai’s ‘Economic and political weekly’ (26 Jul 97), ``The rise of the BJP and its front organizations in Gujrat after 1980 has come as a blow to Muslims who are being reduced relentlessly to a second class citizenship. Their legitimate demands are not on the state agenda. Their harassment by the Hindu fundamentalist forces, remains unmitigated. To considerable extent, the fundamentalist forces have been able to channelise the middle class Hindu psyche against them``.
4. In the anti-Muslim riots in Maharashtra, specially Mumbai, armed marauders of the ‘Army of Shiva’ had inflicted death and destruction on terror striken Muslims while the police was looking on indifferently or even conniving with the Hindu extremists in killing Muslims of Mumbai.
Discrimination against Muslim community in services: According to 1991 nationwide census., Muslims constitute 12.60 percent of the total Indian population. However, the representation of Muslims in the parliament, state legislatures, administrative services, armed forces, police and para military forces, educational institutions and the private and public sectors is far below their proportion. The percentage of the Muslims in the civil and foreign services is less than a quarter of their population. According to a white paper, prepared by All India Milli council (AIMC) and presented to Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral, on the performance of Indian Union during last 50 years, there were only 116 Muslims out of a total of 3883 administrative officers (2.98%), 45 out of 1433 police service officers (3.14%) and 57 out of 2159 foreign service officers (2.64%). In central government, Muslims constitute 1.6% of all class I officers, 3.9% of all class II officers and 4.4% of the technical supervisory staff. According to an official report prepared by Dr. Gopal Singh Committee, there is a marked disparity between Hindus and Muslims in economic, social and educational field. The committee’s report based on a sample survey of 80 districts across the country, found that there were only 92 Muslims out of 2698 students in Engineering colleges. The number of Muslim students in the MBBS course in 8 universities of eight states was only 98 out of 2895.
The Muslims of India are in a state of dilemma, whether to accept humality in the form of Indian nationalism (based on secular ideas) or to preserve their Muslim identity. They have to rationalise whether by accepting the secular nationalism they will be given equal status like Hindus or will they remain aliens as they are. The Hindu desire to absorb the Muslims into Hinduism through Indian nationalism still persists. They have already done this with Jainism and Budhism and they are working on other communities living in India as well.

Hi Indian Muslims.
I am really really happy that I have made all Indians upset. Must have touched a nerve. LOL. Well, seriously, Sikhs got the message in 1983. That is why they left and now you see more of them in new Jersey than in Punjab. How long will it take for the Indian Muslims to figure that one out? Well, if you don`t then I guess the next Holucaust would be in India, and we will happily watch it on TV. I guess then you will realize what the word ``Hindustan`` means. (Hint, Hint: Look at the first 5 letters of the word).

``She used to sit in front of it and spend ours doing makeup, and putting on jewelry and other ornaments.``

I got a little stuck on this line. Other than that I dont know what to say. I guess the author thought a lot about this riot, perhaps (hoepfully) empathising with the moments felt by its victims and then used this for practicing creative writing. I guess we use whatever we can.

To all the Indians. Accept the facts. India is no place for Muslims. They are treated like dogs. Period. They are killed, humiliated and raped. It is a fact of life. They live in fear. So please don`t get all excited. Accept the facts and you will be better off. I enjoy seeing all these Indians, squirming. LOL. Guess I have touched a nerve after all. Hindu vs. Muslim. LOL. I should write more about it. I am going to.
And Ballu Khan Saheb. I have heard Nikhil Bannerjee and Ravi Shankar and Anoushka Shankar, and all the rest of the Hindus. All I have to say, is `` Inko Daandh bhi Pakarni nahi Aati``. So what are the going to play. One taan of mine and Ravi Shankar would probably be
`` Baghlain Jhaankain Gay``. Him and his ``Tentray wala sitar``. Rais Khan is far beyond them. And Ballukhan Saheb. I have not heard of you and never came up with any of your recordings or your profile. But Rais Khan is world renowned. Even the people who loathe him go to his concerts to listen and see if they can learn something. You guys seem like non-existent in front of him.

And plats8#9:
How much do you know about Classical Music to be passing any judgement or telling me what to do? You are a nobody meddling in things that you know nothing about. My Advice is : Shut up before you say something more stupid. Go do some research about gharanas and their styles. Don`t just sit there and say meaningless stuff.

But anyways, this can go on. I love it when I touch a nerve. Muslims in India live the lives of traitors and terrorists. If people like BalluKhan are happy, well, then I guess they have learnt how to live under the control of Hindus. At least I can land on Karachi Airport where I am greeted with a Salam, and recite my Kalma loud and clear and not be afraid. BalluKhan by the way how many times a year do you eat beef? And where do you get it from? LOL

Hamid: So, how many times have you been to India? I bet I could produce a few heart-wrenching accounts by Pakistani Hindus talking about atrocities committed against them and living in fear. Anecdotal accounts are powerful but they are not the whole story and not the only story. Dalit, the accounts in the newspaper might be true but again they are not the only truth. Perhaps you have to live in a secular democracy to understand the plurality of views and that awful, heinous viewpoints and coexist with hopeful and inclusive ones. India is not one or the other, it is both and all in between. *That* is the truth.

At *least* if you want to write about another country and another people please do some research and at least *attempt* to not be so blatantly transparent about your agenda. And try and write a story with something compelling about it, the characters, the story, the development, the writing...something that redeems it from being the puerile trash that this one is.

Thanks Dalit for sharing that informed article with us. Thanks Hamid for hitting our nerves with this beautiful, yet sad and horrific story. It was just a story, but it depicted a true picture of the current state of Indian Muslims. Most of them live in fear and under oppression of those who claim India for Hindus. We should not be jumping up to criticize something if it goes against our beliefs.

Let’s be practical. It was not necessary for anyone to be in India to see the horrific crimes committed against humanity during the Gujarat genocide of Indian Muslims. I, for one, lived here in the states while I felt for the innocent lives taken in the name of religion. My Muslim friend flew back to India when he heard of this massacre. He had come to states for education leaving his parents in India. After a whole month, we came to know that he was brutally murdered with sticks on the streets of Gujrat by so called reformers of modern India when he was trying to chase the authorities for justice as his family had been burnt in their own house before his plane even landed in India. Neighbors had tried calling the police when they saw Hindus ripping my friend’s house in India, but police only showed up hours later to inspect the ashes of those burnt and colored India that day among other thousands who met the same fate only because they went to a mosque instead of a temple for their daily prayers.

What do you call this? I did not see any of my hindu gujrati friends even sweating as to what was happening in India could possibly impact their families there. Everyone kept saying that the part the violence has broken is not near their houses. Should I intellectually infer that the massacre was only targeted for Muslim communities? Did they somehow were assured that this unfortunate event would leave out their families? Why were there only the Muslims squirming every time when they heard that more have been killed in Gujarat due to vicious attacks in the name of religion? Why were they the only one trying to reach their beloved ones back home? Why? Hindus were also killed but their numbers were like a drop in the huge Atlantic. Irony is that it should have had been other way around since Hindus are a majority in India. But, it shows that who the targeted party was.

To all those who think Hindus in Pakistan meet a similar fate. I can only laugh at the ignorance of such individuals as I hope no one thinks that in this modern time of open press, BBC or CNN would be hiding out such details because they are happening in Pakistan? Or maybe they are doing it to protect Pakistan’s image since it’s helping out the world in fighting the terrorism, awwww!. ***note the sarcasm about protecting Pakistan’s image.

Yes, you can not have AIDs in six months, but does it matter? Maybe the girl died because she could not survive the images when she was violated and her brother watched and couldn’t do anything. Maybe she lived, but her soul ate her alive by reminding her of those moments every day and every second of her remaining live. What a shame that we try to divert our attentions to an off-matter subject when the point was clearly to demonstrate the painful series of events. Pity!!!

It is sad what happened and has been happening to Muslims in India. But it would be sadder if we don’t accept what’s true and try to improve ourselves so we could live in peace and harmony and not worry about whether we are Hindus or Muslims.

#11 by hamid_81 on August 7, 2004 5:28pm PT

`` I guess then you will realize what the word ``Hindustan`` means. (Hint, Hint: Look at the first 5 letters of the word...``

Kid, you know nothing about India or Bharat- You do not even know that it is a secular republic and is not a counterpart of Pakistan for the Hindus!!

Hamid-
``One taan of mine and Ravi Shankar would probably be `` Baghlain Jhaankain Gay``. ``

Sorry Kid, this arrogance is not good for you! I also had this stupid obsession about ``speed`` and fast taans during my childhood days- that was till I tried to play some of the taans of Nikhil Banerjee. Try this and let me know if you can play an 8 matras fast sapat with this mizrabs-

``Da- rDA dirDa DaDa rDA DaRa rDA rDA``

I bet you would be going ``Dir Dir Dir Dir`` and moving your fingers on the pardas like some monkey.

Infact Ustad Mohiuddin Dagar used to tell us to play alaaps as slow as possible in order to touch the correct srutis. Unfortunately the Pakistani singers have a singular obsession with ``fast taans`` and are always ready to jump in the wrestling pit .

This is the most stupid article which I have read !!!! It seems that the author is a dim witted narrow minded hate fanatic. I am not a Hindu or a Muslim, but I am sure that both these religions propogate peace and tolerance, which are qualities glaringly missing from the author. His love of classical music is yet to lift his soul. I would suggest that he sticks to that, and concentrates on developing himself as a person.

Please we dont want such hate trash !!!!

``LOL. ....... I guess the next Holucaust would be in India, and we will happily watch it on TV.

Hamid81 alias Barachota- You have shown your true character by scoffing and viling the IM. By your LOL-s you have shown your vileness before all the Indians. You are perverted enough to laugh at the miseries of riot victims and want the IM to suffer in more riots. I bet next time you would be sending a contingent of jehadis to incite more people through your propoganda and arm them for more `retaliations` so that you can watch the fun of more riots on the TV?
Shame on you!!


P.S- Regarding Rasi Khan Saheb- at times his taans sound as if an ``intoxicated mouse is jumping on the strings of Santoor`` - (If I may quote a very respectable Ustad.). And this obsession with fast taans is an aberration- go and listen to his alaaps carefully which are absolutely dud- come to India and learn some more from various other masters than trying to live in your hole!!

Fortunately, I have found the URL to support my claim in the last interact. Jawahara tell me what you make of this:
http://paknews.com/PrintPage.php?id=1&date1=2002-03-01&news2=letters1

Dread the day when one of your family member will be standing on your rooftop and asking your beloved Hindus to not burn you and your family.

Jawahara. Just one question. How does it feel to be the citizen of a country which is part of the only three countries in the world working against Muslims? How does it feel to be a citizen of a country which supports Israel, against Muslims? You must feel very happy going to bed thinking that your tax money to your government goes to Israel so it can slay Muslims. Muslims like you should be ashamed of your nationality. Muslims like you should go and visit Palestine and then decide whether to go back to India and be proud to call yourself Hindustani. Thoo!
And again, Pakistan is no place for Hindus. If they want to they can go to India. We haven`t stopped them. And secondly they are NOT a opressed minority the way Muslims are in India. Sikhs come to Pakistan for Yatra every year and we provide for their saftey and not even one incident happens. In India, Muslims are killed more than the stray dogs. So please, stop yapping about Indian Muslims. And yes I have been to India and seen the condition of the Indian Muslims. I have been to Ajmer Sharif, to pay my respects, to Khawaja Moinuddin Chhishti, and been to Delhi, to pay my respects to Khawaja Nizamuddin Auliya. I have seen the fear the Indian Muslims live in. The fear of death. The fear that they will be killed and slaughtered. During the last riots, I almost cried, after seeing a picture of a Muslim man standing on the roof of his house, his hands clasped in front of him, begging the Hindus standing down to not burn his house and family. But they did. So probably that poor Muslims is dead somewhere buried (hopefully) if they found his charred remains. And I bet one day, that will be the fate of all the Muslims in India, thanks to Mr. Baal Thakray, without whose support no government in India can survive. So please, don`t tell me how good the life is in India. I know.
One more thing, all the human rights violation in Kashmir, done by your army, what about that? Are they ever going to be held accountable for that. You must be very proud, to be a part of a nation whose soldiers rape 8years-80years old Muslim Women in Kashmir. Well, a 25 year old might carry a gun, can be a terrorist, so I understand that they rape her. They are Indians, logically to them it is correct. But and 80year old? Does that make sense? Well, probably to Indians it might.

Stay away from this one, folks. Nothing to be gained by debating a hate filled person..

This is the page I was loking for:

Ustad Allauddin Khan

http://music.calarts.edu/~bansuri/pages/allaudin.html

One man who`s life`s story has really touched me:

Ustad Allauddin Khan, Ravi Shankar`s Guru

http://www.indianmelody.com/allauddinarticle1.htm

Hamidm_81,
For your kind information,

Damn it.. I am too tired to degnify this with a response...

Anyway, I hope you are happy now that your article has been published. Cheers !

okay if we really want to get into what is a place and is not place for someone, then pakistan is no place for non-muslims. as a non-muslim, i know that only too well.

quite a few christians are treated like dogs. they are given the label chooRa and karanta. they are killed. period. what makes pakistan a place for us? more importantly, who decides? should we have our christian neighbors from india telling us that pakistan is no place for us? or any other christians for that matter? i don`t think so.

that the writer`s feelings towards hindus have already been expressed before is clear. that this story is not about music is also clear. and the writer`s responses back that up. it is not anyone`s place really to tell someone where they belong and where they don`t. and people living in sheeshay ke ghar really should not throw stones. . .

oh and by the way hamid, you really do need to learn more about india if you so care to. . .the sikh massacres took place in 1984 following the assassination of indira gandhi, not 1983 as you point out. and there are many sikhs who still live in india. there are hundreds of pakistani christians living all over the world. . particularly in inglistan and amreeka. why is that? more importantly, why are all your muslim brothers and sisters leaving?

your LOL`s by the way are way too loud and not even funny.

and jawahara, just in case you weren`t aware. . .the person with the moniker `dalit` is actually a pakistani who is well on the way to becoming the new 12-head. you remember that character(s) don`t you? i wouldn`t pay much attention to anything he says.

oh and chowk editors. . .how good does this make us pakistanis look? (one of the editors will hopefully understand the reference :) ).

India is nothing but a squalid hellhole for Muslims - the ninth circle of hell. Hindus are remorseless and amoral murderers and lack self-respect and do not know how to respect another human being. The burden of responsibility for the protection of Indian Muslims lies on the shoulders of none other but Pakistani Muslims. We have shirked our responsibility and today hindu has found courage to look into our eyes. The natrural border of Pakistan goes to the West bank of River Ganges. Hindus will have to go to nepal or thailand if they want to live in peace. It is us who have to dig a peaceful dwelling for the Muslims of Hindustan with our swords.

Hamid Bhai

That was a painful read but I must commend you for bringing out the animal that lives inside these people as it is also evident from their responses. One has to be an animal to kill and be remorseless at the same time.

Chowk Editors,
What exactly were you thinking while publishing this article ? I am really curious.

Urstruly #28,
``It is us who have to dig a peaceful dwelling for the Muslims of Hindustan
with our swords.``

You still plan to fight with swords ? Then what are all the Ghaznis and Hatf`s
for ? I realise that puny Hindus would shudder just looking at you; why
waste all the money on them missiles ?

``That was a painful read``...you bet. One of the worst in recent times.

Ana #27,
1983/1984/Indira Gandhi...let it go. Our dear author is a little creative with
facts. Several others bloopers have been pointed out, but he marches on
un-inhibited.

Ballukhan #20,
Nikhil Banerjee`s alaaps are perhaps the best I have heard on sitar. He inherited
Ali Akbar`s creativity, after all.

Hamid_81,
Reappearing as gearhead, I see. Well, well...

urstruly, and this is the tolerance you profess?
chowk editors, i can`t blame the author, who obviously knows no better. can you please tell me on what crieria you chose to publish this article? even the description of rape is ridiculous, intended to tiltillate. the kama sutra is all about seduction, not brute force.

#27 by ana

“quite a few christians are treated like dogs. they are given the label chooRa and karanta.”

Like they are called anything different in India!

Here is how Christian Dalits are treated in India:
Despite the fact that ``untouchability`` was abolished under India`s constitution in 1950, the practice of ``untouchability``—the imposition of social disabilities on persons by reason of their birth in certain castes— remains very much a part of rural India. ``Untouchables`` may not cross the line dividing their part of the village from that occupied by higher castes. They may not use the same wells, visit the same temples, drink from the same cups in tea stalls, or lay claim to land that is legally theirs. Dalit children are frequently made to sit in the back of classrooms, and communities as a whole are made to perform degrading rituals in the name of caste.
Most Dalits continue to live in extreme poverty, without land or opportunities for better employment or education. With the exception of a minority who have benefited from India’s policy of quotas in education and government jobs, Dalits are relegated to the most menial of tasks, as manual scavengers, removers of human waste and dead animals, leather workers, street sweepers, and cobblers. Dalit children make up the majority of those sold into bondage to pay off debts to upper-caste creditors. Dalit men, women, and children numbering in the tens of millions work as agricultural laborers for a few kilograms of rice or Rs. 15 to Rs. 35 (US$0.38 to $0.88) a day.
Even in these modern times, all over India the Dalits are still treated as Untouchables in the eyes of the elite and even of the ordinary people. Having undergone three thousand years of slavery and discrimination, the Dalits find it nearly impossible to get out of this terrible trauma. The general situation of Untouchables is miserable but it is all the more wretched in the case of those Untouchables who have become Christians because they now suffer severe discrimination in two ways - in society and in the Church. We identify them as the Dalit Christians. They bear the stigma of untouchability, a nightmare in every-day life.
SOCIAL & POLITICAL CONDITION
The Dalit community is a deeply wounded one, a community that, with the sanction of the prevailing religion, has for centuries been systematically robbed and reduced to a state of empty powerlessness. The caste people on the other hand have risen to power at the cost of the Dalits. The conversion of some Dalits to Christianity has served as a motive for the Government of India to deprive them of those constitutional rights and privileges which are enjoyed by Dalits who are Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist. The Dalit Christians have actually become refugees in their own homeland and in their home church. Dalit Christians represent the victimized masses, completely denied social justice. Against social and economic exploiters, they have no protection. Dalit Christians are the most exploited and oppressed community in India.
PSYCHOLOGICAL CONDITION
Centuries of oppression have inflicted on the Dalit people deep psychological wounds, the trauma of low self-esteem.
The Dalit Christians are still carrying the cross of humiliation, exploitation, oppression and subjugation. For example, the Dalit cannot go to the village pump or well to draw water as the other villagers do. A Dalit cannot send his boy or girl to the village school where the other boys and girls of the village go. The Dalit cannot set foot in the temple. Dalit men and women or children may not walk in a street where caste people live. In a village restuarant, a Dalit cannot use the same cup as the caste people. Such constant inhuman treatment has a devastating impact on the psyche. This psychic wound has been inflicted on the Dalits by others.
The cruelty of the caste system is that one is born into that caste - or non-caste, in the case of the Dalit, - and from this there is no escape, ever, no matter what one does or achieves.
In the eyes of the majority people of India, a Dalit, by the fact of birth alone, is forever condemned as an agent of pollution.

UrsTruly-
``..The burden of responsibility for the protection of Indian Muslims lies on the shoulders of none other but Pakistani Muslims. We have shirked our responsibility and today hindu has found courage to look into our eyes..........``
``One has to be an animal to kill and be remorseless at the same time. .....``

You are not even powerful enough to determine your own political destiny in your country- So buzz off!
And who has given you this right to self arrogate this responsibility to resolve our issues ? As regards war mongers and riot inciters like you I can only say that I hope the Americans get you before you can raise more jehadis for ``liberating`` India.

Deny this Hindu Apologist! The inveterate liars!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1154479,00.html

Two years on, Gujarat`s wounds are still raw

Once peaceful Muslim and Hindu community ruined by resentment over 1,000 violent deaths as police fail to bring most culprits to trial

Tuesday February 24, 2004
The Guardian

For the last two years, Salimbhai Jamumiya Sindhi has lived in a plastic tent with no running water and only intermittent electricity.
``This is what the Hindus have left us with,`` he says, pointing to homes made of little more than tarpaulins and plastic sheets. ``We did nothing to deserve this and we cannot live with the Hindus now.``
The relief camp on the outskirts of the Gujarati town of Modasa is all that remains of the Muslims of Kidiyad, a sleepy hamlet 100 miles from the state capital Gandhinagar. Islam and Hinduism had coexisted here for centuries until a deadly wave of religious violence swept through Gujarat two years ago this week.
Salimbhai, who had been elected the village sarpanch or headman, lost his wife in the carnage - she was beaten to death - and 70 other Muslims from the village were burnt alive by armed Hindu mobs.
In Kidiyad, all that stands of 50 Muslims` homes are their red brick and mud walls. Left untouched are the Hindu houses and cowsheds. In a sign of the divide, Hindus in Kidiyad made it clear that they regarded Muslims partly as the source, not the victim, of the troubles.
``As long as the Muslims can convince us that there will be no problems then we would welcome them back,`` said Nadubhai Ujambhai, a local salesman. The Gujarat violence broke out in February 2002 when a Muslim mob set alight a train carrying Hindu pilgrims on their way back from the site of the destroyed mosque in Ayodhya. The incident, which claimed the lives of 60 worshippers, sparked three weeks of murderous reprisals by Hindu mobs that left more than 1,000 people dead, most of them Muslims.
Many claim the government of the Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata party in Gujarat looked on as Hindu mobs rampaged through the state.
Despite the attacks the BJP, led by Narendra Modi, a hardline preacher turned politician, won a landslide election in the state at the end of 2002. ``The government have not done anything to help us here. The police did not stop anybody. We have had to sell the land we have always lived on and were forced to move to Modasa because it is a Muslim area. We are safe here,`` says Salimbhai.
Distrust
The deep reservoir of distrust and fear among Muslims has led many to live apart from their fellow Gujaratis. Salimbhai says that Muslim children, who used to go to government schools, will now attend a local madrassa to get an ``Islamic`` education. ``Nobody wants to work for a Hindu here. But neither are Hindus willing to give a Muslim a job.``
Human rights groups say the failure of the Gujarat state authorities to hold those responsible for the deaths to account has made it difficult to reconcile the communities. More than 4,250 cases relating to the riots have been registered with the police. Yet in the 24 months since the riots, only 15 Hindus have been convicted. ``We have no faith in the government of Gujarat,`` says Shakeel Ahamad, president of the Islamic relief committee, which is trying to resettle displaced Muslims. ``They are making every effort to hinder the legal process.``
Many trials of Hindus accused of taking part have resulted in acquittals and the Gujarat courts have been criticised by the country`s supreme court. India`s most important judges will this week decide whether to hand over inquiries to central government investigators.
The police deny they are dragging their feet. They insist the difficulty lies in getting people to turn in their neighbours.
Ahmedabad`s Naroda Patia district was the scene of some of the worst atrocities in 2002. Women were raped, others set on fire. Men were clubbed to death. Even today menace hangs in the air. There are 88 police officers on permanent duty to protect the 80 witnesses to events.
Although the state government lodged its ``first information report`` days after the attack in Naroda Patia, legal activists say little has been done to bring the case to court. ``The state is in control of this process ... but the authorities have simply sat on it,`` said Jiteesh Odedra, a researcher for Delhi-based Human Rights Monitor. ``They have joined this case with another 28. Until they arrest all those accused in all the cases, nothing can move forward in Naroda Patia.``
K Nityanandam, spokesman for the Gujarat government`s home affairs ministry, refuted any suggestion that the government is responsible for the delay. ``A few Muslims still do feel alienated but there was no question of the state being involved in what happened. We have to wait for the judicial processes to end.``

baRachota:

rather than justifying the ill-treatment of pakistani christians by matching it up with the dalits, why don`t you address the issue of what is happening in your own backyard? no one has ever said that india is a perfect democracy, but guess what? it IS a democracy. and it has age-old issues that it will continue to grapple with, and consciences that are, as someone described, either careless, or those which spearhead movements towards change.

i know how some christians are treated in india. i know of the struggle of the dalits. and i KNOW how christians are treated in pakistan. obviously you aren`t interested in all of that. you are interested in your agenda of maligning hindus and other groups in india, which is what you have been doing ever since you first appeared on chowk. so please spare us all your chootiaapa and your so-called concern for what is happening to the dalits in india.

plats8,

gearhead is yet another reincarnation of baRachota. his various changes in name do not change the stupidity and the insecurities that lie deep within him. bechaara.

and why are the chowk editors being asked what possessed them to publish this article? they`ve published drivel before haven`t they? what possesses them to publish an article by a. shiraz for example? obviously they feel that what they`re sharing with us are ``opinions`` or ``artistic attempts`` that are not intended to be taken personally. forgive me as i try not to choke while laughing.

oh, and nb. . .urstruly ka tolerance ka elastic aTak jata hai, if you know what i mean. when it snaps back after being aTka hua, it hurts him really. no one else.

Does anybody even care to read what Dalit keeps posting? Those are geniune articles most appearing in newspapers. How hard is it for one to accept anything against their country? Maybe hard enough for one to deny anything remotely possibly linking his/her country to human ill-treatment. Its pity that we think more about our culture or country and less about humanity. I wish we could improve ourselves and instead of finding objections to such articles, we try to seek the truth and accept it bravely. Change starts small, lets hope it does start...

plats8 #34:
Don’t act like a child. How about this, there is Bal Thakray writing from all those accounts denying these true horrific accounts. And, there is one Hamid writing from all those accounts in defense...hilarious.

Grow up and accept the fact that people may see the truth to it. And there can be people who would rather not be plain stupid objective, but actually want to accept the mistakes and try to improve their selves.

We Americans accept that what happened in Vietnam was our mistake. But there are still some knuckleheads who still think that we were just in doing so. You fall in the later category my friend. My advice, please care to reform yourself so you could be a contributor to this humanity.

chowk editors, when you publish an article of this quality, you invite trolling-this board is awash with trolls.

really makes me wonder what are the vehicles of such misinformation? if one does not know abt india one can look around chowk. mostly indian muslims are interacting here to let the truth be known and those who are termed as paki bashers and hindutva fanatics such as arjun,sadna etc. are the ones who most vociferously ask for Modi`s blood when discussion is on Gujarat on some of the Indian boards.
ana..i know this is a 20 something guy and no ..this should not be used in labelling pakis.everybody knows ..probably in their first month on chowk that urstrulys and gujjus and nikkis are irrelevant ..i have always wondered why such negative people provoke the strongest emotions from us ..
for the author..i would suggest a strong dose of good literature..like i think i have already done before..read Manto,Ghulam Abbas,Krishan Chander,Bedi,Rahi Masoom Raza and then you will realize that what you are writing is not literature..
but honestly i think it is what you write is really your problem so i am not too worried about it..

#38 by nb
“chowk editors, when you publish an article of this quality”

“can you please tell me on what crieria you chose to publish this article? even the description of rape is ridiculous, intended to tiltillate. the kama sutra is all about seduction, not brute force.”

#34 by plats8
“Chowk Editors,
What exactly were you thinking while publishing this article ? I am really curious.”

#27 by ana
“oh and chowk editors. . .how good does this make us pakistanis look? (one of the editors will hopefully understand the reference :) ).”

All this article did was referred to incidents that actually happened in Gujarat!

India is the most pious country in the world. Nothing bad happens there, if it does, it is somebody else’s fault. The woman presented herself for rape. Those knife wielding guys were just hanging out there. It was the woman’s fault. (Author should have made it clear.)

Compare this to a well documented event where a pregnant woman’s womb was slit open, baby was pulled out, dangled by the mob before it was a sharp object was used to kill the baby.( Hate to even bring this up- instead of condemning horrible acts our friends are asking CHOWK admin to delete the article.)

Present facts about India= Malign India

#38 by nb

“even the description of rape is ridiculous”

How would you write the description of rape? Need more graphic and less human?

#15 by Jawahara
” So, how many times have you been to India?”

Now, you have to go to India to write about India? We have plenty of wise guys from India here who have never visited Pakistan, never even read a paper other than in English and they write about Pakistan in as authentic way as they are the personal advisors to the Govt. of Pakistan. Their hatred for Pakistan is evident from every single post on this site.
India is so sacrosanct that if somebody just mentions any thing bad about it, it hurts our pious friends’ sensibilities.

Chowk Admin, please delete this article forthwith. It is annoying our friends.
I guess if the background of the article was Pakistan, we would have had a long line of pious Indians gloating over the poor quality of life in Pakistan and the murderous nature of all muslims….

Chowk admin, please delete my post too, if it hurts some pious and sensitive people from across the border.

rahul #39

negative people provoke the strongest emotions from us because:

a) they bring out our own insecurities which we would not rather face OR
b) they speak from such depths of ignorance that it makes it difficult for the listener to remain silent OR
c) they don`t follow that adage of pointing out the speck in someone`s eye before realizing the log in one`s own (i`m sure this adage isn`t just used in the new testament). . . .

and i`m sure there are other reasons. but these are some of the more prevalent ones at chowk.

another reason is that some of us take a little more seriously than others the fact that chowk is a place for people to read, write and think. when you have people turn up who either don`t want to think, or have a deliberate agenda to be malicious because they really don`t give a rat`s ass about anyone or anything that is being discussed here, it does tend to make the thinking people go off. perhaps ignoring them will make them go away, i don`t know. silence isn`t always the answer.

forgive me for intruding on your wonderings. . . :)

Hamid writes :

Quote

How does it feel to be the citizen of a country which is part of the only three countries in the world working against Muslims? How does it feel to be a citizen of a country which supports Israel, against Muslims? You must feel very happy going to bed thinking that your tax money to your government goes to Israel so it can slay Muslims.

Unquote

What is Hamid doing studying IT in USA and planning to live there as he says in his profile. Does he realise that his college fees and taxes later on is going to support Israel !!!! Or is he planning to be unemployed and claim benefits. What a peice of hypocrite. I hope that he doesnt apply to an Indian IT company.

for the author..i would suggest a strong dose of good literature
er, I suppose it would leave the author even more confused ... all that he needs I suppose is a daily dose of a strong laxative ... and while our author here cries hoarse over the condition of muslims in India his fellow countryman is baffled by his silence on the what muslims are doing to each other, even in Islamic countries

Hi everyone. Well, whatever I have writtewn in my previous responses, nobody I see hav e really come up with facts to say that it is incorrect. Just letting me know that my story is bad; no dice. And ana, about making us Pakistani look bad. Us Pakistanis, or us Muslims are already bad in the eyes of everyone. If we help Muslims in Kashmir, then we are termed as terrorists. If the same happens in Palestine, then again we are termed as terrorists. I thank God everyday that at least my country of ethenic origin doesn`t have a military pact with Israel. Like India.At least Pakistan does not take party in violence in Palestine. Now back to India. What about the violence in Kashmir? Well, enough because I have already said this. Has anyone checked the URL I posted earlier? has anyone seen the anguish and pain on the face of the man? No.
But why is everyone telling me I should be happy with my story getting published? LOL. This has been published in many local newspapers and even in Temple Times. I have been told that it is a great story and I have been also been applauded alot. So really I do not need any sort appreciation from stuck-up Indians.
Bottom line, Muslims live like dogs in India, and whenever there numbers get to critical point, ethinic cleansing is started. They have been killed, and will be killed. They need to re-alize that.
I know a lot about India. Because my family, belongs to a certain part of India, where we ruled. But we left it. We left our money and our estates, because, we believed that there should be a seperate homeland for Muslims. That is why none of my family members were killed in the riots. We made the right choice.
There is hatred stemming out of every corner in India for Muslims. Every Villian in recent Indian movies, has to be an Indian-Muslim except for Khaki (which I think was a good movie).
And ahy should`t I write about these sort of rapes? I will. If agression happens against Muslims in any form, I will write about it. Whether it is in India or anywhere else. I will write about it. And I don`t care if lousy Indians don`t like it. I don`t give a rat`s behind if they don`t. They are hiding away from the worst reality. I have no reason to. Insh-Allah, I will write more about such atrocities.
But anyways, this piece was not intended, as a rascist piece. If I would have written the same thing in Pakistani context, all the Indians would have commended me. But, anyways, it was meant to be read for it`s other things.
But, one thing is for sure. I am writing more about this sort of thing. Again and Again I will write. And not just on chowk, but on every website and newspaper I can find.
Reason: I feel for my Muslim brothers and sisters. if there is anything happening to them, I will write about it and make people realize that Muslims are in pain and angiush.
Regards
H

#39 by rahul_capri

To consider this author(and people of his ilk) as irrelevant would be a huge mistake. A mistake that India and the world has been making for a long time. A mistake which has brought us all to where we are today - unable to control/neutralize a monster that has grown big right under our noses.

I think chowk editors are right - this article should be published. Let me explain...

Of course, this article full of bare-faced lies and twisted facts, raw in emotions and presentation .... and that itself tells the story. The real story is not about riots in India or elsewhere - the story is about how such events are processed and internalized by a section of people - its a reflection of their pathologies, their incessant attempt to validate a weakening ideology.

It represents a vast section of paki populace who believe in the ``theories`` and ideas presented in here.

The theme is very simple really. Like the author says - ``Pakistan is not for Hindus``, or other minorities for that matter. In this, the author states a fact which is accepted by vast majority of pakis - Pakistan is for muslims and muslims only.

Which implicates that India must be for Hindus only. It has to be - how can it be anything else? And yet - there are millions muslims living in there. It`s an huge anomaly that pakis are not simply able to process and understand. It just doesn`t fit in their scheme of things. (I remember reading an article in chowk where author narrated an incident where a paki child was confused after knowing that Salman Khan is a muslim and still living in India.)

So you see - it leaves pakis confused and invalidates their very dearly cultivated ``ideology`` ..... which in turn makes them resentful towards indian muslims ..... and hindus of course.

So when things go wrong over there, it gives pakis a huge sense of elation - things then fall into place - everything make sense - life is sweeter. That`s why the author is so very elated at the thought of coming holocaust that will wipe out indian mulsims. Because that would be the ultimate salvation for pakis. That will teach the ``traitors`` (as they view indian muslims) a lesson.

So this article makes a powerful presentation of the pathology of a people so hung up on ``Two Nation Theory``. This is reminder of what is really out there - this being the season of people-to-people contact and peace and what not. This should help calibrating your responses while you make a valiant attempt to make peace with a people full of resentment and paranoia.

Thanks chowk editor for publishing this article.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

so let me get this straight.

In my nearly a 8 months of interacting on Chowk, I have seen dozens of articles condemning Pakistan, Pakistanis, Islam, Muslims etc. I have seen indians and hindus jumping with joy at such articles and using these to further demean Pakistan and Islam.

Now, Chowk staff has done something out of the ordinary and published an article which supposedly bashes something OTHER than Islam. And everyone is up in arms and demanding that Chowk delete it !!!!!

Amazing hypocrisy!!!

HP:

considering that your post calling sadna a whore didn`t get deleted right away, your current one won`t be deleted either.

my note to the specific chowk editor was tongue-in-cheek, if the editors read this, they will know what i mean. it was a reference to something private which will not be understood here. it was not to question why this story was published here.

i have no problem with the young hamid writing a story about gujarat. but only an ignorant person would write something about kama sutra being practiced on someone in the act of rape. kama is love, and regardless of our sensibilities when it comes to sex or the kama sutra, the equating of kama to rape is frankly ridiculous. hamid had already expressed his disgust for hindus long before this story was published. and quite frankly it shows in this piece. it shows without even having that prior knowledge.

india is not the most pious country in the world, and there are hindus who decried what happened in gujarat, plenty of them. are we going to dismiss those people as ones who don`t matter? as ones who don`t know where the fault lies? what narrow-minded opinions do people of your ilk have of ALL hindus anyway? even i don`t blame the entire muslim population of pakistan for the rapes of christian women perpetrated by muslims, or christians murdered during church services, or practically an entire christian village being destroyed because i know that not to be true. for me to think otherwise is the height of ignorance and blame-gaming. for you, it seems to have become a part of your repertoire and life.

and here`s another fact. . .this whole conversation may not have even taken place and i would have just ignored this article and moved on, if hamid had not said that india is no place for muslims. more than a few of us christians have been told in not so subtle ways that pakistan is no place for us by muslims. again, it is not for the writer to decide what is a place for indian muslims, or that hindus who live in pakistan don`t belong there. his story may have been badly written (a sensitive subject deserves better treatment), but his defensive and offensive remarks have overshadowed even that.

and it seems rather pointless for me to indulge in this conversation any further, so i will just shake the dust from my feet and walk away. . .

HP #46,

Please, spare us the sermon. It would`ve been quite different if this were an
interact, and not an article. Of course we all indulge in ``mine is better than yours``
at chowk, but I would feel ashamed if the chowk editors decided to publish a
random rant of mine as a front page article. This is a collective responsiblity that
we all need to be aware of.

This article is wrong on facts and fails on every single count of literary criterion,
hence it shouldn`t have appeared. At best it is a third rate propaganda piece.
It would, however, be a perfectly acceptable interact or ilog entry, in my opinion.

Hamid_81 #42,

``Like India.At least Pakistan does not take party in violence in Palestine``

As several people have said, educate yourself more on issues before talking
about them. On second thought, forget it.

By the way, the picture you keep pointing out (for deeply humane reasons, I am
certain) is that of Qutbuddin Ansari. He is alive and well, and has relocated to Calcutta
(which I really hope he didn`t have to). You may want to look up these url`s. His case
was actually followed widely across the Indian press.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/525354.cms
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021212/nation.htm

It really is a good idea to read up a little on Lucknow-Gujarat distances, HIV/AIDS
and other assorted things before writing about them. The fact that Temple-wallas
liked it isn`t a credible defence.

Well, India is a country where Muslims are a pest and treated such. There will be Ethinic Cleansing done all the time. it is just a matter of time when you become the next target.
And yes. Indians beware. You have somebody over here, who is going to write everyting that happens to Muslims in India. And again, if this would have been about Pakistan,you would have congratulated me. But now, this will always be about India. I don`t want a good rating, from Chootia Indians. I am happy if I piss them off enough. LOL
Seeing them Squirm like this makes me feel great. Keep up the SQUIRMING and I promise to keep writing things that will keep you Squirming more.
H

Well, I think Ana should stop with her Chootiyapa. She is pissing me off. As they say, if you can`t stop a girl from yapping then you should give her something to keep her mouth busy.
LOL

``To all the Indians. Accept the facts. India is no place for Muslims.``

I find this line to be more interesting then the article. A Non Indian Muslim telling Indian Muslims to to ``face facts``. LOL!!

I would be the first to Admit that Indian Muslims get a Raw Deal in India. They are economically backward and deserve affirmative action. I also know that communalism exists. But the situation is nowhere as simplistic as this idiot is portraying it to be.

Consitutionally Indian Muslims get more protection then any other Muslim in Muslim countries. No less a persona then Urstruly said it. :) As Human Beings and as Hindus, we should accept the fact that the communal monster does occaisionally rise amongst us. Rather then blanket denial one must face up to that scourge and defeat it. Our shared prosperity is the ultimate goal.

``LOL. ....... I guess the next Holucaust would be in India, and we will happily watch it on TV.
``

The true face of Pakistan towards Indian Muslims. They will cry crocodile tears for Indian Muslims but will secretly enjoy any horror visited upon the Indian Muslim because it will reinforce their nationhood.

O Lord, please spare me the love showed by Pakistani Muslims to their fellow Muslims in India and Afghanistan.

#51

This Bastard has the audacity to write a story about a rape?

#51

Yeah, Hamid Mian - You sure know how to treat a girl right - don`t ya!!! you are a real red-blooded paki .... Only a paki could have come up with a statement like that.

Keep it up bro - you are the kind of person pakistan needs. With an attitude like this, you will go places in the land of pure. You are jsut 21 and possibilites are endless.

Who knows..... someday you could be the President General of Pakistan.

++++

[ Snigger - what a jacka$$!! ]

Stuka. You Madar Chood. Just shut up and go F..ck yourself. S.O.B Fu..king Indian.

......... the only reason i feel compelled to throw in my nickle is because somone named hamid wrote it ........... i haven`t read the story (and have no intention of reading it either) but judging by the interacts, this hamid must have said something that has irritated a lot of our unconverted friends who still dwell in the darkness of the jahaliya ........... ergo, it must be good ..........

........... even i am getting tired of all the paki-bashing by both the cicumscised and the unclean,...... therfore, even without reading what all the fuss is about, i fully endorse the views of my namesake ...............excelsior!

stuka,

thank you for putting so succinctly what i couldn`t express myself. he is a boy, i keep telling myself. but his age cannot be an excuse for his immaturity. i find it highly interesting that a boy should write a story about a horrific act such as rape, and then post such filth as #51.

women don`t need immature boys who have no idea what it is like to be raped to exploit them for no other purpose than to promote an agenda of hate. it is disrespecting to women who actually went through this, to read this as this was written.

51
chowk staff, your high standards are impressive. well done

hp, it is well documented that this baby-dangling did not happen.been through all this already.
descriptions of rape should not be tiltillating. this was meant to be just that.

#52 by hamid_81 on August 8, 2004 3:14pm PT
``.......I don`t want a good rating, from Chootia Indians. I am happy if I piss them off enough. LOL
..... I promise to keep writing things that will keep you Squirming more.``

Chowk editors you need to kick this man out now.

#51 by hamid_81 on August 8, 2004 3:14pm PT
``Well, I think Ana should stop with her Chootiyapa. She is pissing me off. As they say, if you can`t stop a girl from yapping then you should give her something to keep her mouth busy.
LOL ``
(Chowk can`t you delete such posts!)

I am sure you do the same with your Mother and Sisters! And wipe off that stupid grin on your face!

#57 by nb on August 8, 2004 8:36pm PT
”hp, it is well documented that this baby-dangling did not happen.been through all this already.”

Yeah right! It did not happen in Indian papers.

So when are you going to start on the Prophet and his six years old wife, your favorite line of arguments. I would like to have something to deny.

#59 by ana
That was uncalled for and I hope Hamid apologizes to you for that.
Sometime in the heat of the moment things happen. I know as I have seen your cuss laden posts and you have a number of rejected posts also.

If you cuss people out sometime they would forget that you are a woman. You live here and not in Pakistan where woman often get deferential treatment.
I am sorry for what Hamid wrote but I think instead of crying on other people’s shoulder you should go ahead and cuss Hamid out to your heart`s content.
That’s what a woman, who has lived here for almost 20 years, should have done in the first place. It is not that cussing is alien to you and there is no harm in using that to reassert yourself.
If I were you, I will have a good gulp of whatever I am drinking and write out what I think of Hamid and his comments.
So go right ahead, I think that will help you and I hope Chowk staff for once would have the common sense to not delete your post.

HP #63,

``You live here and not in Pakistan where woman often get deferential treatment.``

They do ? In India they`re pretty much treated like crap, on an average.

About the baby dangling incident - horrific as it is, there is a vague chance that
it may be untrue. I do not wish to deny any of the gruesome violence during the
riots, but this particular claim has been brought under question. Even Rakesh
Sharma`s long and rather definitive documentary on the riots do not talk about this,
as far as I could tell.

As you can imagine, urban legends do get created in such extraordinarily violent
times.

#60 by hamidm2 on August 8, 2004 8:36pm PT
......... even i am getting tired of all the paki-bashing by both the cicumscised and the unclean,...... therfore, even without reading what all the fuss is about, i fully endorse the views of my namesake ...............excelsior! ``

Miyan, for once you are turning `sober` - your name sake must have switched your brand. I am sure the himalyan weeds would bring you back to your former ``Lahut``.

< <<

This is no excuse. Ana, from her posts, is an intelligent, thoughtful woman. Hamid is a low life jerk and a jacka$$.

HP #63

you`re right about one thing. cussing is as unalien to me as it is to you. but i think farzana said it best when she said men resort to name-calling when they are afraid or feeling insecure. and i think that doesn`t apply to men alone. unlike you, who has been known to call a woman who expresses her point of view a baby-killer and a whore, i don`t necessarily feel the need to give men ma behen ki gaaliyan to make myself feel better. not that i haven`t used those words before because i have but here`s the thing: they don`t make me feel better. so i am not afraid to tell men what i think in language free of gaalis in order to reassert myself whatever the heck that means. nor do i need a man`s shoulder to cry on. your high opinion of women here at chowk has always been noted.

chowk has not rejected or deleted any of my posts as ana, and you really don`t know why my posts have been rejected or dele