A Matter of Destiny

Mantolives - you write ``I am quite prepared to accept your logic that religious schools should have no science etc in them... in that case logic will require you to say that Islam is not a code of life... ``

Sigh!!!! please don`t play with logic. This is definitely not your strongest point.

Back to topic. So I am not sure what your educational background is. But it does not appear to me that you had good schooling. Or at least you were not a good student. But let me teach you a few things:

The old times that you refer to when maths and science was taught in religious madrassas was not the time of specialization. That was an era of people like al-Kindi - who was a philosopher, an astronomer, an Islamic scholar, and an ophthalmologist at the SAME time. Now, you would not find a single professional astronomer who is also a doctor today. The sciences, as they matured, became further divided into Physics, Chemistry, Biology, maths etc. Chemistry became further divided into Organic vs in-organic. Math divided into other specialties - logic, algebra, calculus, differential equations etc.

As knowledge became more specialized, so did schooling. Today if a student says that he/she wants to go to school to learn ``science`` - my first question would be ``what kind of science? Maths, medical, or engineering?`` The schools themselves divided along specialty schools. That is why you have separate engineering, medical and arts schools. So now, if I want to be doctor, i will go to a medical school. Similarly, if I want to learn about Islam, i will go to a religious school. Or, at least I would take classes from a person whose SPECIALIZATION is in religion.

Islam is indeed a complete way of life. And you don`t need to have engineering and medical taught in a religious school to make that point. You don`t need a muslim doctor to know mechanical engineering to ``complete`` his islam.

but again, Sigh!!!!

Mantolives:23
Agreed. Just hope and pray that muslims do not get used by such thuGGs and terrorists.
A simple nod in agreement would do. I am confident you do not think or act in accordance with the policy of these thhUGGs.


Muslims make sure you do not become a pawn of these thuGGs & terrorists.

Also Keep an eye on those who are following the agenda of these avowed enemies of muslims so to not let them getaway when the time comes The westernised NGOs are now do-gooding the same job which the evil missionary-mafias of bible/flag varieties did/still do. Musharraf & Shaukat Aziz type of westoxicated scum are in cahoots with such social-engineering projects. Fail them every step of the way. Expose them. Ridicule them.
Make every minute of their move difficult for them.


what these thuGGs know not is that the Fundamentalist, die-hard, staunch muslims know no fear of anyone but Allah. Such thhuGGs & their minions will be made to see their errant ways by their own off-spring right inside their own houses. It is happening everywhere and the colonised Haramee generation is trembling in their westernboots.

The U.S blueprint against muslims

Atif2,

I pity your condition.... but still...

.... But about that article... I will say this... the author has very justifiably referred to Islamic History and said that an ``Islamic educational establishment`` in the classical age of Islam taught Aristotlean Philosophy, Physical Sciences, Math, along side Law and its understanding e.g. fiqh.

Now ... either Islam is a way of life or it is not... and if you claim that Islam is a complete code of life... a way of life... then a school founded in the name of Islam in the silicon valley should not be teaching just ``Islamic Sciences`` e.g exposition of Islamic law, Hadith and collection hadith ... what a phrase by the way... no one amongst the classical scholars Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi or Imam Hanbal ever used the word ``science`` for fiqh... but our great scholars of Islam are hell bent on describing fiqh as a `science` instead of `law` ... I don`t want to get into this debate.


The article is accurate... for it is based on history and facts. I am quite prepared to accept your logic that religious schools should have no science etc in them... in that case logic will require you to say that Islam is not a code of life... and that will mean ofcourse that if there are schools that are dedicated to religion, then there could be schools only dedicated to secular education.... I don`t have any qualms with this view ... I will even welcome it... but it is historically untrue... if indeed this is where Zaytuna is coming from then why wouldn`t Hamza Yusuf clarify his position, renounce any claims of Islam being the way of life, and accepted the separation of Islam from Public affairs especially education....


Ofcourse such logic will have no appeal for someone who is on this site to merely insult others, and make their inherent bigotry evident to everyone else.

-YLH

Mantolives - with all due respect, you could use some mouth plug as well :) Speaking before you think (as evident by your recent post on unplugged where you seemed to back the article lamenting the absence of science and technology teachings in a religious school) and using selective ``quranic injunctions`` will not help you, especially given your stance in regards to Qadiyanis.

Dear Malik99...

You speak too much and without any real sense or basis... I am sick of your lies, and as per the injunction of the Quran.... I will turn a blind eye from people like you from now on.




Tahmed...

Thankyou for your response and correction .... that is what I wanted to hear... we need people like you there....

Please join Naseeb Vibes.



Sameerjb,

My dear brother... I have always respected you for being an honest pork eating and alcohol imbibing Pakistani .... Your definition of a Muslim is one of ``believer``.... but whether you like it or not, you are a cultural Muslim.... and Naseeb aims at all sorts of Muslims ... cultural or believing... Do me a favor.... and atleast sign up on it... then fill the compatibility quiz and religious preferences... Waisay... there are more than 700 Hindus on Naseeb last I checked... more than a 1000 christians.... and people of many other faiths.... and also people who don`t have any faith ...

Please read my exchange on unplugged with Tahmed.... this website is not for dating purposes... I am talking specifically about Naseeb Vibes now.


Here is our very own Rozaiba writing for Naseeb ... Please read the article and see if you fit any of the characteristics that the great Al Razi exhibited:


The Greatest Freethinker in Islam

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/prose-detail.php?aid=1845


This is for you ....


Echoboom...

I don`t know.... I have been trying to explain to you for a while that liberal and modernist thinking is not necessarily the `londi` of the west.... but you never did quite get that.


-YLH

I think it is best for a society, especially a Muslim society to encourage the marriage of males by age 18 and that of women by 16 or 17. But instead we have created societies where men are made to chase their phanton careers well into their mid 30s and women to chase those phantom males into their 30s. And the parents of both are stuck with their offspring for the best years of their lives. I think if a man is married at 18, by the time he is in his late 30s, his offspring will be to stand on their feet as well. The 40s and 50s are the best age for man when he is the most productive. At that time he will not have financial burden to support his offsprings which guarantees an early retirement with financial freedom. Similarly, women can start a career when they are in their mid to late twenties when their kids are in senior school and by the time women are in their mid 30s, they will be free of their responsibilities as well.

But since white man is currently not doing it so we wont do it either. The common sense however, suggests that in our society probably zina and fornication will never be accepted as a social norm; then common sense also suggest that we should also block all the ways that lead to zina anyway. One of the best way is to marry men and women when they are in the prime of their hormonal youth. That is how our bodies are designed, isn`t it. Even in western societies where health care and food quality is better, the frigidity for women and erectile dysfunction in men starts by mid 30s, so adopting a way of life that white man has can only lead to social dysfunction in our societies - even if zina does not remain a social taboo any more.

Bina...you`re right...Monis` page was unique with all the funny-little-mug-shots. I must say I am proud of my classmates and friends Bina and Monis who have found novel (pun very much intended Bina) and stimulating ways to engage this world we live in...

Mantolives #12 Based on our discussion on unplugged, I take back the criticism of the article on warraq with apologies to the editor. As I noted on unplugged, I re-read the article more closely, and see that it is in fact a well thought out and balanced article on an issue that should be important to every muslim in the world today. I had been too hasty in reading the article and criticising it for what it is not.

One very interesting thing about Naseeb is that they are trying to build online ``trust`` networks by associating people with other people they know in real life. As the Internet matures, I think establishing identity on the net will take on more importance. Currently, as exhibited on Chowk, there is a huge divergence between online and offline persona of a given individual. Establishing offline accountability in online social interactions will take the web to a new level in my opinion. This is part of what makes the Naseeb community concept revolutionary.

Yasser:

I have always maintained a non-Muslim status at chowk. In life, I am alcohol imbibing and pork-eating non-religious non-Muslim. My interest in religions is nothing more than knowing the history of this branch of social constructs. Whether all Muslims remain obsessed with fundamentalism or miraculously all become liberal-secular would not change my preference for a non-religious or non-Muslim status. The site is clearly taregeted to Muslims. Bina Shah writes very clearly and very well. I have not misunderstood anything she has written in this article. In my previous post, I specifically expressed my disinclination towards metting people on the basis of religion. Frankly speaking, all my needs to meet people are easily met at yahoo alone. I have talked to wonderful people from around th world while enjoying playing chess and other games. For the sake of dating and bed-partners, I believe that face-to-face interaction locally is much more rewarding. Dont anybody dare tell me that people at naseeb.com are better than people living in my neighborhood; they might not be heaven bound but I am interested in their life here and now.

I am not for it but it does not mean that I am against it like an enemy. Those who enjoy it should not fear any suicide bombing or jihad or even verbal attacks from me.

tintingem...

Naseeb predates Orkut... just so that you know :)

As for Turks, Indonesians, and Arabs.... and ``morons`` who are not of Pakistani origin... There are several thousand turks, more than few hundred Indonesians and atleast 30 000 Arabs... Also... there are close to 1000 Hindus.... and 2000 Christians registered on Naseeb....

Here is the article that Tahmed was referring to... I will like to know what he found objectionable in it?? Is it too Islamist? or too Liberal?? or do some people just suffer from chronic negativity? Does the Muslim community not need to be more tolerant of dissent? What is so moronic about it? Or is it that some people just read the title and think they know everything about the article:


``Ibn-e-Warraq`s attack on Islam``

Our failure as the Muslim community to tolerate, let alone accept, dissent is one of the many reasons why we find ourselves in the quagmire that we are in today. As a result those refuseniks that ought to have led the ‘opposition’ so to speak with in the world of Islam, politically and socially have fled our ranks and have taken refuge in the west. A deafening silence prevails over the intellectuals of the Islamic world. This is the true measure of the fear that the orthodoxy has created.

One such refusenik is the unnamed ex-Muslim who has assumed the identity of ‘Ibn-e-Warraq’, and is the founder of Institute for Secularization of Islamic Society. He is an outspoken critic of Islam challenging the very basics of the faith itself. Over the past few years he has become famous with his book ‘Why I am not a Muslim’ that outlines the reasons why he left the faith of Islam. In doing so, however, he has alienated a large mass of Muslim audience who were otherwise willing to listen to him.

While he is right that Islam itself means three different things a) Islam of the Quran and the Prophet b) Islam of the Ulema, and c) the Islamic civilization, but it is his unsparing criticism of the first one that has alienated the silent majority. Instead of approaching the issue of human rights, equality and democracy on a case-by-case basis, he has chosen to attack the faith of Islam itself.

It is his right to do so, no doubt, and we should accept his right whether or not we agree, but it is an exercise in futility. Faith is matter of belief. The problems he outlines with Islam are not unique to Islam, but that Islam, as a civilization, has now reached the point of intellectual and political development that Christianity had five centuries earlier. It was in 16th century that the idea of a universal Christendom was replaced by the idea of nation-state.

In Islam this started to happen in the early 20th century. The answer to the issues and ailments of the Muslim world is not to attack its basis recklessly, hiding behind an assumed identity, but to become an instrument of change within the Muslim world, by helping channel those energies that will make the Islamic world more democratic, more progressive, more liberal and more modern. It is high time for Ibn-e-Warraq to end this counter-productive confrontation with the Muslims of the world, and join in the great dialogue of our civilization. Surely his place is within the Islamic civilization as a leader of dissent

This is actually a very addictive site. Naseeb has developed a cult following amoung Muslims of all ages. It`s actually a very low pressure site, not what it might seem. Surprisingly it has a *very* large number of Arabs, Turks, African Americans, and Persians on the site in addition to the normal desi crowd you find on Chowk.

I read some comment on here alluding that its a Pakistani site and I`m not sure where that came from. It is by far the most diverse and intelligent group of online Muslims I`ve seen on the net. 130,000 members in nine months is no joke -- Chowk has about 10,000 members over about eight years. I find it very different than other sites like Friendster and Orkut in that it has an identity focus. They have started using collaborative filtering to predict what individual users might like in terms of writings and people.

You must try this out if just out of curiosity. I think there is a ``Naseeboholic`` sitting inside each one of us!

Binashah:
Thanks a million writing this. I am envious of you that you personally knew Monis Rehman.
If possible could you please forward this post to him. His email seems to be, as I`ve read there, is always clogged up.

Mantolives:10

You and I have had many many discussion , debates and arguments on this forum. If you can recall I`ve admired your zeal , enthusiasm, and passion unabashedly and to no end. There were occasions when I wanted to revise this assessment ``.. but your heart is in the right place`` but I`m glad you never gave me that opportunity.

You see Yasser, there is the boat, the oar, and the keel ( rudder). As long as we are in the same boat and have a destination then If you have the oar and the other operate the keel or vice-versa or the best way; to switch for variety and comfort. There lies our destiny.

And yes I`ve been made that on some other fora, a while back, you have been generous to quote me in support of your contention.

After reading your comments about Naseeb.com, I had to check it out. By expressing your support to this network I feel really comfortable in saying that no matter which route or phraseology you and I choose to employ, our destination is, jointly and severally, the same.

In fact naseeb.com has done a very SAWAB kaa kaam by providing an eHomeland to the first generation muslims. If like a Nobel an award could be given to an instituition, I am very tempted to call this instituition a MOMIN. ( It brings solace & comfort to an overwhelming humanity in its direst need today)

And a comment about Olympics....

Have you wondered why the entire ``former British India`` has scored only 1 medal on the medals table ... even though today is home to several independent nations, which technically should have increased the chances for this reason?

The third world... especially our region ... still is facing adversity... our interest in sports is marginal and limited.... even in Cricket if you think about it... A good crowd in Qaddafi stadium is 30 000 .... and that too when Pakistan plays India... in India it is a bit more because Calcutta stadium and other stadiums are huge... At my alma mater in the US... an American College football game between my university and another university from the Big East Conference could fetch crowds of 60 000 people.. How many people do you think watch Punjab University take on LUMS in Cricket?

Sports and other such positive activities come with political and economic stability... to fault our young for being politically aware is rather sad... if any thing they are not aware enough... first we must become first rate nations ... be it Pakistan, Bangladesh or the regional heavy weight India... and then we will act like first rate nations...

-YLH

Mantollives # 10 writes ``And the only person who has so far spoken out for Naseeb.com before my post, is someone who will probably be most disappointed by the liberal, progressive, and anti-Mullah views of Naseeb. ``

I know a person who claims to be ``liberal``, yet he promotes religion based hatred. He claims to be ``liberal`` yet supports a dictatorship - as for him dictatorship is ``progressive``. He claims to be ``liberal``, yet he supports the repressive policies of Ataturk`s Turkey. When we encounter such a ``liberal`` person, we say that he is a confused person.

Being `liberal` does not necessarily equate to being `progressive`. Being `liberal` also does not equate to playing slave to the world.

Naseeb Vibes is just another medium of exchange of ideas. I have just skimmed through a few articles in the last few days. there are some articles I agree with, and some I don`t. Unlike the self-proclaimed ``liberals``, i have not boxed myself into being a life long ``liberal`` and supporting every liberal cause - whether or not it makes sense to me.

As for Irshad Manji, I had an unfortunate chance of meeting her in person. In fact, I had known of her well before she wrote the book. She is a regular columnist for National Post in Canada. This a newspaper which is owned by a jewish family. But there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is that this newspaper and this family is at the forefront of stiffling opinion. It created policies that caused many of its reporters to go on strike or leave the paper altogether. If Manji wants to put the money where her mouth is, she should have spoken up against the fascist policies of her paper`s owners. Instead, she has the nerve to write a book teaching us about ``tolerance`` !!!

What a nerve!