A Matter of Destiny

tintingem...

Naseeb predates Orkut... just so that you know :)

As for Turks, Indonesians, and Arabs.... and ``morons`` who are not of Pakistani origin... There are several thousand turks, more than few hundred Indonesians and atleast 30 000 Arabs... Also... there are close to 1000 Hindus.... and 2000 Christians registered on Naseeb....

Yasser:

I have always maintained a non-Muslim status at chowk. In life, I am alcohol imbibing and pork-eating non-religious non-Muslim. My interest in religions is nothing more than knowing the history of this branch of social constructs. Whether all Muslims remain obsessed with fundamentalism or miraculously all become liberal-secular would not change my preference for a non-religious or non-Muslim status. The site is clearly taregeted to Muslims. Bina Shah writes very clearly and very well. I have not misunderstood anything she has written in this article. In my previous post, I specifically expressed my disinclination towards metting people on the basis of religion. Frankly speaking, all my needs to meet people are easily met at yahoo alone. I have talked to wonderful people from around th world while enjoying playing chess and other games. For the sake of dating and bed-partners, I believe that face-to-face interaction locally is much more rewarding. Dont anybody dare tell me that people at naseeb.com are better than people living in my neighborhood; they might not be heaven bound but I am interested in their life here and now.

I am not for it but it does not mean that I am against it like an enemy. Those who enjoy it should not fear any suicide bombing or jihad or even verbal attacks from me.

One very interesting thing about Naseeb is that they are trying to build online ``trust`` networks by associating people with other people they know in real life. As the Internet matures, I think establishing identity on the net will take on more importance. Currently, as exhibited on Chowk, there is a huge divergence between online and offline persona of a given individual. Establishing offline accountability in online social interactions will take the web to a new level in my opinion. This is part of what makes the Naseeb community concept revolutionary.

Mantolives #12 Based on our discussion on unplugged, I take back the criticism of the article on warraq with apologies to the editor. As I noted on unplugged, I re-read the article more closely, and see that it is in fact a well thought out and balanced article on an issue that should be important to every muslim in the world today. I had been too hasty in reading the article and criticising it for what it is not.

Bina...you`re right...Monis` page was unique with all the funny-little-mug-shots. I must say I am proud of my classmates and friends Bina and Monis who have found novel (pun very much intended Bina) and stimulating ways to engage this world we live in...

I think it is best for a society, especially a Muslim society to encourage the marriage of males by age 18 and that of women by 16 or 17. But instead we have created societies where men are made to chase their phanton careers well into their mid 30s and women to chase those phantom males into their 30s. And the parents of both are stuck with their offspring for the best years of their lives. I think if a man is married at 18, by the time he is in his late 30s, his offspring will be to stand on their feet as well. The 40s and 50s are the best age for man when he is the most productive. At that time he will not have financial burden to support his offsprings which guarantees an early retirement with financial freedom. Similarly, women can start a career when they are in their mid to late twenties when their kids are in senior school and by the time women are in their mid 30s, they will be free of their responsibilities as well.

But since white man is currently not doing it so we wont do it either. The common sense however, suggests that in our society probably zina and fornication will never be accepted as a social norm; then common sense also suggest that we should also block all the ways that lead to zina anyway. One of the best way is to marry men and women when they are in the prime of their hormonal youth. That is how our bodies are designed, isn`t it. Even in western societies where health care and food quality is better, the frigidity for women and erectile dysfunction in men starts by mid 30s, so adopting a way of life that white man has can only lead to social dysfunction in our societies - even if zina does not remain a social taboo any more.

Dear Malik99...

You speak too much and without any real sense or basis... I am sick of your lies, and as per the injunction of the Quran.... I will turn a blind eye from people like you from now on.




Tahmed...

Thankyou for your response and correction .... that is what I wanted to hear... we need people like you there....

Please join Naseeb Vibes.



Sameerjb,

My dear brother... I have always respected you for being an honest pork eating and alcohol imbibing Pakistani .... Your definition of a Muslim is one of ``believer``.... but whether you like it or not, you are a cultural Muslim.... and Naseeb aims at all sorts of Muslims ... cultural or believing... Do me a favor.... and atleast sign up on it... then fill the compatibility quiz and religious preferences... Waisay... there are more than 700 Hindus on Naseeb last I checked... more than a 1000 christians.... and people of many other faiths.... and also people who don`t have any faith ...

Please read my exchange on unplugged with Tahmed.... this website is not for dating purposes... I am talking specifically about Naseeb Vibes now.


Here is our very own Rozaiba writing for Naseeb ... Please read the article and see if you fit any of the characteristics that the great Al Razi exhibited:


The Greatest Freethinker in Islam

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/prose-detail.php?aid=1845


This is for you ....


Echoboom...

I don`t know.... I have been trying to explain to you for a while that liberal and modernist thinking is not necessarily the `londi` of the west.... but you never did quite get that.


-YLH

Mantolives - with all due respect, you could use some mouth plug as well :) Speaking before you think (as evident by your recent post on unplugged where you seemed to back the article lamenting the absence of science and technology teachings in a religious school) and using selective ``quranic injunctions`` will not help you, especially given your stance in regards to Qadiyanis.

Atif2,

I pity your condition.... but still...

.... But about that article... I will say this... the author has very justifiably referred to Islamic History and said that an ``Islamic educational establishment`` in the classical age of Islam taught Aristotlean Philosophy, Physical Sciences, Math, along side Law and its understanding e.g. fiqh.

Now ... either Islam is a way of life or it is not... and if you claim that Islam is a complete code of life... a way of life... then a school founded in the name of Islam in the silicon valley should not be teaching just ``Islamic Sciences`` e.g exposition of Islamic law, Hadith and collection hadith ... what a phrase by the way... no one amongst the classical scholars Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi or Imam Hanbal ever used the word ``science`` for fiqh... but our great scholars of Islam are hell bent on describing fiqh as a `science` instead of `law` ... I don`t want to get into this debate.


The article is accurate... for it is based on history and facts. I am quite prepared to accept your logic that religious schools should have no science etc in them... in that case logic will require you to say that Islam is not a code of life... and that will mean ofcourse that if there are schools that are dedicated to religion, then there could be schools only dedicated to secular education.... I don`t have any qualms with this view ... I will even welcome it... but it is historically untrue... if indeed this is where Zaytuna is coming from then why wouldn`t Hamza Yusuf clarify his position, renounce any claims of Islam being the way of life, and accepted the separation of Islam from Public affairs especially education....


Ofcourse such logic will have no appeal for someone who is on this site to merely insult others, and make their inherent bigotry evident to everyone else.

-YLH

Mantolives:23
Agreed. Just hope and pray that muslims do not get used by such thuGGs and terrorists.
A simple nod in agreement would do. I am confident you do not think or act in accordance with the policy of these thhUGGs.


Muslims make sure you do not become a pawn of these thuGGs & terrorists.

Also Keep an eye on those who are following the agenda of these avowed enemies of muslims so to not let them getaway when the time comes The westernised NGOs are now do-gooding the same job which the evil missionary-mafias of bible/flag varieties did/still do. Musharraf & Shaukat Aziz type of westoxicated scum are in cahoots with such social-engineering projects. Fail them every step of the way. Expose them. Ridicule them.
Make every minute of their move difficult for them.


what these thuGGs know not is that the Fundamentalist, die-hard, staunch muslims know no fear of anyone but Allah. Such thhuGGs & their minions will be made to see their errant ways by their own off-spring right inside their own houses. It is happening everywhere and the colonised Haramee generation is trembling in their westernboots.

The U.S blueprint against muslims

Mantolives - you write ``I am quite prepared to accept your logic that religious schools should have no science etc in them... in that case logic will require you to say that Islam is not a code of life... ``

Sigh!!!! please don`t play with logic. This is definitely not your strongest point.

Back to topic. So I am not sure what your educational background is. But it does not appear to me that you had good schooling. Or at least you were not a good student. But let me teach you a few things:

The old times that you refer to when maths and science was taught in religious madrassas was not the time of specialization. That was an era of people like al-Kindi - who was a philosopher, an astronomer, an Islamic scholar, and an ophthalmologist at the SAME time. Now, you would not find a single professional astronomer who is also a doctor today. The sciences, as they matured, became further divided into Physics, Chemistry, Biology, maths etc. Chemistry became further divided into Organic vs in-organic. Math divided into other specialties - logic, algebra, calculus, differential equations etc.

As knowledge became more specialized, so did schooling. Today if a student says that he/she wants to go to school to learn ``science`` - my first question would be ``what kind of science? Maths, medical, or engineering?`` The schools themselves divided along specialty schools. That is why you have separate engineering, medical and arts schools. So now, if I want to be doctor, i will go to a medical school. Similarly, if I want to learn about Islam, i will go to a religious school. Or, at least I would take classes from a person whose SPECIALIZATION is in religion.

Islam is indeed a complete way of life. And you don`t need to have engineering and medical taught in a religious school to make that point. You don`t need a muslim doctor to know mechanical engineering to ``complete`` his islam.

but again, Sigh!!!!

mantolives - Don`t pity me. Keep some pity for yourself. I am done with you.

malik99 - well said. but here is a piece of advice for you. Don`t indulge in debate with mantolives. You can`t do that with a man who walks on one foot (his other foot is permanently etched in his mouth). He speaks a silly thing then makes all sorts of noise defending it.

#25 and #27: Why do not you guys get together and determine if it`s to do with your fate or your destiny that you ran into each other on Chowk ? :)

manto #25, OR why don`t you determine on your own that it is neither your fate, nor your destiny to continue with #27 and #28. aap ke taqdeer maiN kuch aur hai ji. aur bhi gham haiN. . .etcetera etcetera etcetera.

and congratulations on the exams. from what i read on nvibes, you did quite well? :)

i think malik makes a good point when he says that ``Islam is indeed a complete way of life. And you don`t need to have engineering and medical taught in a religious school to make that point. ``

However, one of the most misunderstood things in pakistan is this concept of a ``complete way of life``. This term has been used by mullahs to make absurd claims of ``muslim science`` vs ``western science``, and by mullah ``scientists`` to claim they have deduced the ``speed of heaven`` from islamic lore; or to recomend harnessing the power of jinns as an alternative source of energy. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would realize that religion can be a ``complete way of life`` only in terms of the VALUES that it promotes. Thus, the Quran calls for being honest - and surely an individual who values honesty will apply this to all aspects of ones conduct (professional life, personal life, business dealings, intellectual activity).

Of course, if you start focussing on religion as a source of values (rather than as a diktat driven by the sharia or as a pseudo-science as mentioned above), then the maulvi is out of a job. Instead of aspiring to rule Pakistan, the maulvi has to find an honest living commensurate with socially useful skills (which, in case of most mullahs, are slightly less than those required to become shoeshine boys).

re:#15 by Mantolives
It is a little more complicated than that.
India is politically and economically stable but still performs abysmally in sports (especially international sporting events like Olympics). Why?
In India, Sports is not considered a profession. In a status conscious society, rich kids are not going to play sports for a living, so they will never be good at it. Middle class kids are the only ones who look at sports with any amount of interest. Since it is not financially remunerative to be a gymnast or a track athlete, most kids in this category do not take up sports as a profession. Most boys from middle class want to be cricket players because of the money and glamor involved.
So, if that part of the world is to have any success in Sports, Sports should be made financially rewarding. Perhaps it will happen someday, with increasing globalization and economic growth.
Sridhar