A Matter of Destiny

I clicked on naseeb.com and realized that perhaps it is nothing new when i saw a picture of saddam and rumsfeld shaking hands (we all know that, for Gods sake. What would have been new would have been a picture of BENAZIR shaking hands with saddam - yes, she went to baghdad to meet with the rat, and after saddam had made it clear that he couldnt care less about kashmir).

I then saw an article titled ``warraq`s attack on islam`` - and came to the conclusion that this was another web sites of the morons, by the morons and for the morons. Get a life you whining, miserable little fools. Young people from the US, China, Russia, africa, australia, carribean, latin america compete in olympics.

PS: As for this being a pan-Islamic website - forget it. It is a web site by pakistani morons, for pakistani morons. You wont find any arabs and turks and indonesians and iranians and nigerians joining in. Rest assured. And just replacing the aol ``youve got mail`` with a panjabi accented guy saying the same thing would be funny if it was intended to be funny - it is merely pathetic (and do you seriously think that non-pakistanis will identify with a guy with a panjabi accent - half the muslim morons around the world dont even know what a panjabi is).

re: this article
Though i do not belong here, i have something interesting to say. Go to the Url below:

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/prose-detail.php?aid=1856&pg=1
There is an article by Yaseer Latif Hamdani. Ring a bell?
Sridhar

tahmed,

............ you are right .... just goes to prove that there is something terribly wrong with the ummah when they cannot even go about the simple task of trying to find a bed-partner without dragging in god, saddam and rumsfield ............ they even have an islamic tv commercial for viagra that starts off with ominous koranic verses extolling the virtues of sex fee-sabeehlillah and shows a happy momin with four beaming fat women in death-shrouds!....... go figure

Orkut is no longer the sole abode of the frivolous.

I am a paid member of naseeb.com. I occasionally go to the website and I have made some online friends through it, as well as having reconnected with old friends. This is a very good website :)

hamidm - you write ``just goes to prove that there is something terribly wrong with the ummah when they cannot even go about the simple task of trying to find a bed-partner without dragging in god, saddam and rumsfield``

sounds like you have some better ideas and suggestions for the ``ummah`` in its quest to find bed partners. Lets hear them. If you don`t have any better ideas, then please let the ``ummah`` talk about god, saddam and rumsfeld. We already have too many commentators like yourself, and very few doers like Monis Rehman.

BTW - how did you find your bed partner? I bet when your parents arranged your marriage, they must have mentioned how ``god fearing`` you were. You probably even recited some verses of Quran with a maulvi on the day of nikah. So even you could not get a bed-partner without bringing in god.

I was introduced to this site way back. I have even forgotten when. I do not remember if I ever signed up for it or just browsed through it. It seemed pretty technical and kind of functional. A friend of mine constantly kept on sending me email invites to look into the site and join his network of friends. There was a time when I could stand the mailing lists, the email invites and the back and forth email communication, but I have no tolerance left for it anymore. Also, both email communication and chat groups are not the best way of knowing anyone; face-to-face communication reveals a lot more about a person. I detest chat groups and consider msn messenger a curse of nature!

One of my friends has looked into some other Muslim networks and online groups. Interestingly, the most weird people she came across on those sites were the ones who claimed to be either the most religious or looking for a god fearing woman (mostly of the Pakistani Origin). They were indeed very romantic in the beginning (sweet talk and stuff) but ended up being complete perverts. Since this friend had grown up in North America therefore she was quite interested in looking into a Muslim male of Pakistani origin to preserve the culture (a fallacy). So far she has come across all kinds - liars, losers, good for nothing and perverts. Now, she is even hesitant to share any of her experiences since she knows my take. By the way, last time we talked she had a friend over and they were reviewing and dissecting Naseeb.Com. We all laughed at it.

I agree that people have their own way of meeting a person and evaluating how suitable he/she may be when it comes to a long-term partnership. It can be a scary deal. Not many people like to put all their cards on the table. Some (both men and women) love to stay elusive.

People must have exceptional requirements or suffering from some deficiency syndrome to search for friends on obscure websites like naseeb.com in the presence of similar services provided for free with database many fold larger from across the world at yahoo, msn and aol to name few sites. All one needs is to be noticed by another person and then moving to one-on-one interaction modes, provided by all major sites in a variety of ways. Chowk is actually better than naseeb.com because it also offers noticing through interaction without the undue pressure to extend noticing to be fruitful through multiplication. At least 2 couples and many friendships have been developed among chowkies.

There is no better place to meet people than yahoo. But one has to be smart to be successful in developing friendship or relationship without using religion to click fellings between two individuals. Actually gupistan.com is better than naseeb.com for providing pressure-free interacting environment for Pakistanis and letting people notice the ones they like.

Desi Orkut...
balay!balay!

tahmed, hamidm, Sameerjb

The people who I would have expected to be all support for a website like Naseebvibes and both of you are the most critical. Maybe had you read the article ``Warraq`s attack on Islam`` instead of just looking at the title you would have another opinion... it is a website that is trying to build bridges, not burns them. NaseebVibes is a progressive and forward looking website dedicated to reform ... and is highly critical of the narrowminded Islamists and fundamentalist Islamism that is on the loose... look at the kind of people who are writing for or speaking at Naseeb... Chomsky... Asra Nomani... Judaea Pearl.... Irshad Manji... Bina Shah... Feroz Khan.. As for calling it obscure... it already has 130 000 strong membership... not all of whom are Muslims by the way... Soon enough you will see an interfaith project starting on Naseeb ... which deals with Islam`s interaction with the Modern world... I am surprised at how every thing is always the opposite of reality on Chowk... people who should be supporting Naseeb for finally coming out... as a Progressive and liberal website ... are denouncing it like narrowminded fanatics...

And the only person who has so far spoken out for Naseeb.com before my post, is someone who will probably be most disappointed by the liberal, progressive, and anti-Mullah views of Naseeb.


Please give something a chance before you condemn it...

-YLH

Naseeb is a great site! You all who`re dissing it should re-evaluate your opinions. Even if everyone on that site was a fundo, the articles Vibes presents are quite extra-ordinary. And those ideas will eventually seep into and change views.

Cheers!

Mantollives # 10 writes ``And the only person who has so far spoken out for Naseeb.com before my post, is someone who will probably be most disappointed by the liberal, progressive, and anti-Mullah views of Naseeb. ``

I know a person who claims to be ``liberal``, yet he promotes religion based hatred. He claims to be ``liberal`` yet supports a dictatorship - as for him dictatorship is ``progressive``. He claims to be ``liberal``, yet he supports the repressive policies of Ataturk`s Turkey. When we encounter such a ``liberal`` person, we say that he is a confused person.

Being `liberal` does not necessarily equate to being `progressive`. Being `liberal` also does not equate to playing slave to the world.

Naseeb Vibes is just another medium of exchange of ideas. I have just skimmed through a few articles in the last few days. there are some articles I agree with, and some I don`t. Unlike the self-proclaimed ``liberals``, i have not boxed myself into being a life long ``liberal`` and supporting every liberal cause - whether or not it makes sense to me.

As for Irshad Manji, I had an unfortunate chance of meeting her in person. In fact, I had known of her well before she wrote the book. She is a regular columnist for National Post in Canada. This a newspaper which is owned by a jewish family. But there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is that this newspaper and this family is at the forefront of stiffling opinion. It created policies that caused many of its reporters to go on strike or leave the paper altogether. If Manji wants to put the money where her mouth is, she should have spoken up against the fascist policies of her paper`s owners. Instead, she has the nerve to write a book teaching us about ``tolerance`` !!!

What a nerve!

And a comment about Olympics....

Have you wondered why the entire ``former British India`` has scored only 1 medal on the medals table ... even though today is home to several independent nations, which technically should have increased the chances for this reason?

The third world... especially our region ... still is facing adversity... our interest in sports is marginal and limited.... even in Cricket if you think about it... A good crowd in Qaddafi stadium is 30 000 .... and that too when Pakistan plays India... in India it is a bit more because Calcutta stadium and other stadiums are huge... At my alma mater in the US... an American College football game between my university and another university from the Big East Conference could fetch crowds of 60 000 people.. How many people do you think watch Punjab University take on LUMS in Cricket?

Sports and other such positive activities come with political and economic stability... to fault our young for being politically aware is rather sad... if any thing they are not aware enough... first we must become first rate nations ... be it Pakistan, Bangladesh or the regional heavy weight India... and then we will act like first rate nations...

-YLH

Binashah:
Thanks a million writing this. I am envious of you that you personally knew Monis Rehman.
If possible could you please forward this post to him. His email seems to be, as I`ve read there, is always clogged up.

Mantolives:10

You and I have had many many discussion , debates and arguments on this forum. If you can recall I`ve admired your zeal , enthusiasm, and passion unabashedly and to no end. There were occasions when I wanted to revise this assessment ``.. but your heart is in the right place`` but I`m glad you never gave me that opportunity.

You see Yasser, there is the boat, the oar, and the keel ( rudder). As long as we are in the same boat and have a destination then If you have the oar and the other operate the keel or vice-versa or the best way; to switch for variety and comfort. There lies our destiny.

And yes I`ve been made that on some other fora, a while back, you have been generous to quote me in support of your contention.

After reading your comments about Naseeb.com, I had to check it out. By expressing your support to this network I feel really comfortable in saying that no matter which route or phraseology you and I choose to employ, our destination is, jointly and severally, the same.

In fact naseeb.com has done a very SAWAB kaa kaam by providing an eHomeland to the first generation muslims. If like a Nobel an award could be given to an instituition, I am very tempted to call this instituition a MOMIN. ( It brings solace & comfort to an overwhelming humanity in its direst need today)

This is actually a very addictive site. Naseeb has developed a cult following amoung Muslims of all ages. It`s actually a very low pressure site, not what it might seem. Surprisingly it has a *very* large number of Arabs, Turks, African Americans, and Persians on the site in addition to the normal desi crowd you find on Chowk.

I read some comment on here alluding that its a Pakistani site and I`m not sure where that came from. It is by far the most diverse and intelligent group of online Muslims I`ve seen on the net. 130,000 members in nine months is no joke -- Chowk has about 10,000 members over about eight years. I find it very different than other sites like Friendster and Orkut in that it has an identity focus. They have started using collaborative filtering to predict what individual users might like in terms of writings and people.

You must try this out if just out of curiosity. I think there is a ``Naseeboholic`` sitting inside each one of us!

Here is the article that Tahmed was referring to... I will like to know what he found objectionable in it?? Is it too Islamist? or too Liberal?? or do some people just suffer from chronic negativity? Does the Muslim community not need to be more tolerant of dissent? What is so moronic about it? Or is it that some people just read the title and think they know everything about the article:


``Ibn-e-Warraq`s attack on Islam``

Our failure as the Muslim community to tolerate, let alone accept, dissent is one of the many reasons why we find ourselves in the quagmire that we are in today. As a result those refuseniks that ought to have led the ‘opposition’ so to speak with in the world of Islam, politically and socially have fled our ranks and have taken refuge in the west. A deafening silence prevails over the intellectuals of the Islamic world. This is the true measure of the fear that the orthodoxy has created.

One such refusenik is the unnamed ex-Muslim who has assumed the identity of ‘Ibn-e-Warraq’, and is the founder of Institute for Secularization of Islamic Society. He is an outspoken critic of Islam challenging the very basics of the faith itself. Over the past few years he has become famous with his book ‘Why I am not a Muslim’ that outlines the reasons why he left the faith of Islam. In doing so, however, he has alienated a large mass of Muslim audience who were otherwise willing to listen to him.

While he is right that Islam itself means three different things a) Islam of the Quran and the Prophet b) Islam of the Ulema, and c) the Islamic civilization, but it is his unsparing criticism of the first one that has alienated the silent majority. Instead of approaching the issue of human rights, equality and democracy on a case-by-case basis, he has chosen to attack the faith of Islam itself.

It is his right to do so, no doubt, and we should accept his right whether or not we agree, but it is an exercise in futility. Faith is matter of belief. The problems he outlines with Islam are not unique to Islam, but that Islam, as a civilization, has now reached the point of intellectual and political development that Christianity had five centuries earlier. It was in 16th century that the idea of a universal Christendom was replaced by the idea of nation-state.

In Islam this started to happen in the early 20th century. The answer to the issues and ailments of the Muslim world is not to attack its basis recklessly, hiding behind an assumed identity, but to become an instrument of change within the Muslim world, by helping channel those energies that will make the Islamic world more democratic, more progressive, more liberal and more modern. It is high time for Ibn-e-Warraq to end this counter-productive confrontation with the Muslims of the world, and join in the great dialogue of our civilization. Surely his place is within the Islamic civilization as a leader of dissent

tintingem...

Naseeb predates Orkut... just so that you know :)

As for Turks, Indonesians, and Arabs.... and ``morons`` who are not of Pakistani origin... There are several thousand turks, more than few hundred Indonesians and atleast 30 000 Arabs... Also... there are close to 1000 Hindus.... and 2000 Christians registered on Naseeb....

Yasser:

I have always maintained a non-Muslim status at chowk. In life, I am alcohol imbibing and pork-eating non-religious non-Muslim. My interest in religions is nothing more than knowing the history of this branch of social constructs. Whether all Muslims remain obsessed with fundamentalism or miraculously all become liberal-secular would not change my preference for a non-religious or non-Muslim status. The site is clearly taregeted to Muslims. Bina Shah writes very clearly and very well. I have not misunderstood anything she has written in this article. In my previous post, I specifically expressed my disinclination towards metting people on the basis of religion. Frankly speaking, all my needs to meet people are easily met at yahoo alone. I have talked to wonderful people from around th world while enjoying playing chess and other games. For the sake of dating and bed-partners, I believe that face-to-face interaction locally is much more rewarding. Dont anybody dare tell me that people at naseeb.com are better than people living in my neighborhood; they might not be heaven bound but I am interested in their life here and now.

I am not for it but it does not mean that I am against it like an enemy. Those who enjoy it should not fear any suicide bombing or jihad or even verbal attacks from me.

One very interesting thing about Naseeb is that they are trying to build online ``trust`` networks by associating people with other people they know in real life. As the Internet matures, I think establishing identity on the net will take on more importance. Currently, as exhibited on Chowk, there is a huge divergence between online and offline persona of a given individual. Establishing offline accountability in online social interactions will take the web to a new level in my opinion. This is part of what makes the Naseeb community concept revolutionary.

Mantolives #12 Based on our discussion on unplugged, I take back the criticism of the article on warraq with apologies to the editor. As I noted on unplugged, I re-read the article more closely, and see that it is in fact a well thought out and balanced article on an issue that should be important to every muslim in the world today. I had been too hasty in reading the article and criticising it for what it is not.

Bina...you`re right...Monis` page was unique with all the funny-little-mug-shots. I must say I am proud of my classmates and friends Bina and Monis who have found novel (pun very much intended Bina) and stimulating ways to engage this world we live in...

I think it is best for a society, especially a Muslim society to encourage the marriage of males by age 18 and that of women by 16 or 17. But instead we have created societies where men are made to chase their phanton careers well into their mid 30s and women to chase those phantom males into their 30s. And the parents of both are stuck with their offspring for the best years of their lives. I think if a man is married at 18, by the time he is in his late 30s, his offspring will be to stand on their feet as well. The 40s and 50s are the best age for man when he is the most productive. At that time he will not have financial burden to support his offsprings which guarantees an early retirement with financial freedom. Similarly, women can start a career when they are in their mid to late twenties when their kids are in senior school and by the time women are in their mid 30s, they will be free of their responsibilities as well.

But since white man is currently not doing it so we wont do it either. The common sense however, suggests that in our society probably zina and fornication will never be accepted as a social norm; then common sense also suggest that we should also block all the ways that lead to zina anyway. One of the best way is to marry men and women when they are in the prime of their hormonal youth. That is how our bodies are designed, isn`t it. Even in western societies where health care and food quality is better, the frigidity for women and erectile dysfunction in men starts by mid 30s, so adopting a way of life that white man has can only lead to social dysfunction in our societies - even if zina does not remain a social taboo any more.

Dear Malik99...

You speak too much and without any real sense or basis... I am sick of your lies, and as per the injunction of the Quran.... I will turn a blind eye from people like you from now on.




Tahmed...

Thankyou for your response and correction .... that is what I wanted to hear... we need people like you there....

Please join Naseeb Vibes.



Sameerjb,

My dear brother... I have always respected you for being an honest pork eating and alcohol imbibing Pakistani .... Your definition of a Muslim is one of ``believer``.... but whether you like it or not, you are a cultural Muslim.... and Naseeb aims at all sorts of Muslims ... cultural or believing... Do me a favor.... and atleast sign up on it... then fill the compatibility quiz and religious preferences... Waisay... there are more than 700 Hindus on Naseeb last I checked... more than a 1000 christians.... and people of many other faiths.... and also people who don`t have any faith ...

Please read my exchange on unplugged with Tahmed.... this website is not for dating purposes... I am talking specifically about Naseeb Vibes now.


Here is our very own Rozaiba writing for Naseeb ... Please read the article and see if you fit any of the characteristics that the great Al Razi exhibited:


The Greatest Freethinker in Islam

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/prose-detail.php?aid=1845


This is for you ....


Echoboom...

I don`t know.... I have been trying to explain to you for a while that liberal and modernist thinking is not necessarily the `londi` of the west.... but you never did quite get that.


-YLH

Mantolives - with all due respect, you could use some mouth plug as well :) Speaking before you think (as evident by your recent post on unplugged where you seemed to back the article lamenting the absence of science and technology teachings in a religious school) and using selective ``quranic injunctions`` will not help you, especially given your stance in regards to Qadiyanis.

Atif2,

I pity your condition.... but still...

.... But about that article... I will say this... the author has very justifiably referred to Islamic History and said that an ``Islamic educational establishment`` in the classical age of Islam taught Aristotlean Philosophy, Physical Sciences, Math, along side Law and its understanding e.g. fiqh.

Now ... either Islam is a way of life or it is not... and if you claim that Islam is a complete code of life... a way of life... then a school founded in the name of Islam in the silicon valley should not be teaching just ``Islamic Sciences`` e.g exposition of Islamic law, Hadith and collection hadith ... what a phrase by the way... no one amongst the classical scholars Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi or Imam Hanbal ever used the word ``science`` for fiqh... but our great scholars of Islam are hell bent on describing fiqh as a `science` instead of `law` ... I don`t want to get into this debate.


The article is accurate... for it is based on history and facts. I am quite prepared to accept your logic that religious schools should have no science etc in them... in that case logic will require you to say that Islam is not a code of life... and that will mean ofcourse that if there are schools that are dedicated to religion, then there could be schools only dedicated to secular education.... I don`t have any qualms with this view ... I will even welcome it... but it is historically untrue... if indeed this is where Zaytuna is coming from then why wouldn`t Hamza Yusuf clarify his position, renounce any claims of Islam being the way of life, and accepted the separation of Islam from Public affairs especially education....


Ofcourse such logic will have no appeal for someone who is on this site to merely insult others, and make their inherent bigotry evident to everyone else.

-YLH

Mantolives:23
Agreed. Just hope and pray that muslims do not get used by such thuGGs and terrorists.
A simple nod in agreement would do. I am confident you do not think or act in accordance with the policy of these thhUGGs.


Muslims make sure you do not become a pawn of these thuGGs & terrorists.

Also Keep an eye on those who are following the agenda of these avowed enemies of muslims so to not let them getaway when the time comes The westernised NGOs are now do-gooding the same job which the evil missionary-mafias of bible/flag varieties did/still do. Musharraf & Shaukat Aziz type of westoxicated scum are in cahoots with such social-engineering projects. Fail them every step of the way. Expose them. Ridicule them.
Make every minute of their move difficult for them.


what these thuGGs know not is that the Fundamentalist, die-hard, staunch muslims know no fear of anyone but Allah. Such thhuGGs & their minions will be made to see their errant ways by their own off-spring right inside their own houses. It is happening everywhere and the colonised Haramee generation is trembling in their westernboots.

The U.S blueprint against muslims

Mantolives - you write ``I am quite prepared to accept your logic that religious schools should have no science etc in them... in that case logic will require you to say that Islam is not a code of life... ``

Sigh!!!! please don`t play with logic. This is definitely not your strongest point.

Back to topic. So I am not sure what your educational background is. But it does not appear to me that you had good schooling. Or at least you were not a good student. But let me teach you a few things:

The old times that you refer to when maths and science was taught in religious madrassas was not the time of specialization. That was an era of people like al-Kindi - who was a philosopher, an astronomer, an Islamic scholar, and an ophthalmologist at the SAME time. Now, you would not find a single professional astronomer who is also a doctor today. The sciences, as they matured, became further divided into Physics, Chemistry, Biology, maths etc. Chemistry became further divided into Organic vs in-organic. Math divided into other specialties - logic, algebra, calculus, differential equations etc.

As knowledge became more specialized, so did schooling. Today if a student says that he/she wants to go to school to learn ``science`` - my first question would be ``what kind of science? Maths, medical, or engineering?`` The schools themselves divided along specialty schools. That is why you have separate engineering, medical and arts schools. So now, if I want to be doctor, i will go to a medical school. Similarly, if I want to learn about Islam, i will go to a religious school. Or, at least I would take classes from a person whose SPECIALIZATION is in religion.

Islam is indeed a complete way of life. And you don`t need to have engineering and medical taught in a religious school to make that point. You don`t need a muslim doctor to know mechanical engineering to ``complete`` his islam.

but again, Sigh!!!!

mantolives - Don`t pity me. Keep some pity for yourself. I am done with you.

malik99 - well said. but here is a piece of advice for you. Don`t indulge in debate with mantolives. You can`t do that with a man who walks on one foot (his other foot is permanently etched in his mouth). He speaks a silly thing then makes all sorts of noise defending it.

#25 and #27: Why do not you guys get together and determine if it`s to do with your fate or your destiny that you ran into each other on Chowk ? :)

manto #25, OR why don`t you determine on your own that it is neither your fate, nor your destiny to continue with #27 and #28. aap ke taqdeer maiN kuch aur hai ji. aur bhi gham haiN. . .etcetera etcetera etcetera.

and congratulations on the exams. from what i read on nvibes, you did quite well? :)

i think malik makes a good point when he says that ``Islam is indeed a complete way of life. And you don`t need to have engineering and medical taught in a religious school to make that point. ``

However, one of the most misunderstood things in pakistan is this concept of a ``complete way of life``. This term has been used by mullahs to make absurd claims of ``muslim science`` vs ``western science``, and by mullah ``scientists`` to claim they have deduced the ``speed of heaven`` from islamic lore; or to recomend harnessing the power of jinns as an alternative source of energy. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would realize that religion can be a ``complete way of life`` only in terms of the VALUES that it promotes. Thus, the Quran calls for being honest - and surely an individual who values honesty will apply this to all aspects of ones conduct (professional life, personal life, business dealings, intellectual activity).

Of course, if you start focussing on religion as a source of values (rather than as a diktat driven by the sharia or as a pseudo-science as mentioned above), then the maulvi is out of a job. Instead of aspiring to rule Pakistan, the maulvi has to find an honest living commensurate with socially useful skills (which, in case of most mullahs, are slightly less than those required to become shoeshine boys).

re:#15 by Mantolives
It is a little more complicated than that.
India is politically and economically stable but still performs abysmally in sports (especially international sporting events like Olympics). Why?
In India, Sports is not considered a profession. In a status conscious society, rich kids are not going to play sports for a living, so they will never be good at it. Middle class kids are the only ones who look at sports with any amount of interest. Since it is not financially remunerative to be a gymnast or a track athlete, most kids in this category do not take up sports as a profession. Most boys from middle class want to be cricket players because of the money and glamor involved.
So, if that part of the world is to have any success in Sports, Sports should be made financially rewarding. Perhaps it will happen someday, with increasing globalization and economic growth.
Sridhar

Lest there be any doubt or misgivings among those who want to dumbdown the muslim or Islam aspect of Naseebvibes.

A Great Man indeed; this Monis Rehman.

This is what his profile comments are:

I`m a Pakistani American that grew up in Saudi Arabia. I`ve spent most of my professional career in Silicon Valley building computer chips and starting dotcoms. After recent events, I felt that we need to build a stronger Muslim community. Naseeb.com is a social networking site with the aim of bringing together fragmented pockets of Muslims and creating meaningful personal relationships for a greater good. I hope you have as much fun on this site as we had building it. And I hope that together we can make it a valuable resource for the entire community.

---

This turbulence & churning in the Umma Ocean will seed many an oyster.

``Daikhiyay iss behr kee teh sey uchhaltaa hai kyaa
GuNmbad-e neelof`ree rUnG badaltaa hai kyaa``

rsidhar...

India might be politically stable and economically stable , a debate I certainly don`t want to get into ... but it is definitely not a country where the needs of the poor people have been met... compared to life in the west... life continues to be tough in India just like the rest of ``not so stable`` countries in the third world. Sportsmen in the western countries don`t come from the upper echelons of the society... most of them are from Middle class .... but in countries like India amongst others the middle class is too caught up in its own travails to actually care about sports.

If you think about it ... even in cricket... the interest amongst South Asians is nothing compared to say the interest of Americans say in Basketball , Football or Baseball... look at the stadiums and the number of people who watch those sports... eventhough they are merely regional and city clubs playing sports... their numbers are in excess of what our numbers are... even in an India vs Pakistan game...

That should give you an idea of what I am talking about...

-YLH

Ana,

I did quite well on my Law finals thankyou :) Good to know that you are checking Naseeb
on a regular basis.

I should have taken your fine advice... but some of this is actually a lot of fun you see...


Malik99,

Instead of the usual personal attacks... Please tell me if in the classical age of Islam the universities and schools had this dichotomy. I don`t care if you create this dichotomy now, but if an article points to this blatant contradiction, I will support it.

Your response as usual was illogical and wrong... despite your exclusive claim to logic. By accepting this dichotomy ... you can do one of two things logically:

1) Denounce all secular knowledge.... science etc and accept an Islamic angle to everything ... which means that you will be the biggest supporter of Nuclear scientists harnessing the energy of the Jinns.

2) Accept that religion and secular knowledge are two parallel lines that never meet. In that case you have made the case for secularism.

Logically there is no third option.... but knowing your responses in the past... and your double standards i.e. your support of the Mullahs in Pakistan but your condemnation of Aschcroft in the US... I am sure you will invent a third option, but that doesn`t mean that will be logical.


Atif2...

Your obsession with me is getting sillier by the day... even Ali1, who is a great detractor of mine, spurned you the other day. Learn a lesson yaar... leave me da hell alone.




tahmed...

Brilliant response... every Muslim should be his own priest... as I had suggested a few months back in my article ``Hotel Mohenjodaro``.... These Mullahs are responsible for the corruption that has seeped into the Islamic doctrine ... it is these Mullahs that we have to counter.


Hope you are on Naseeb now....

-YLH

It is these kind of news which the Secularist Musharrafs & Shaukat Aziz type of illiterates supress in Pakistan.

They know not as yet, that they are an endangering species, soon to be endangered.

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Click here
these voice interviews are worth listening to.
Why has there been a surge of interest since September 11?

Sunday 4 July (2004) was American Independence Day, and a 20 ton block of granite was lowered into place at Ground Zero in New York. It`s inscribed with a tribute to the people who died on September 11 2001 and will be the cornerstone of the building that will replace the World Trade Centre.

Since the destruction of the twin towers there`s been a keen interest in America in the study of Islam, copies of the Koran are said to be flying out of book shops and significant numbers of Americans, particularly women, are said to be converting to the faith.

Sam Hardie met a group of converts in San Francisco to find out more.

Echoboom..

No one is dumbing down its `Muslim` aspect.... but the word has a very broad meaning on Naseeb... it includes ``Cultural`` as well ``Believing`` muslims... ``Liberal`` as well ``traditional`` Muslims...

BTW... amongst the many sects Muslims can choose on Naseeb, there is an ``Ahmadi`` option as well... Kudos to Monis who apparently stood against a tide of abuse and hate mail to keep the `Ahmadi` option as an Islamic sect on there...

As for Naseeb Vibes.. that is an Ezine run by Naseeb networks... and my wife is its founding editor so I think a know a little bit more about that as well... but thanks anyway for defending Naseeb so vociferously... Maybe you can tell this to those ignorant fanatics who are condemning Naseeb as the greatest haram website and fitna in the history of digital Islam.


-YLH

Mantolives asks: ``Please tell me if in the classical age of Islam the universities and schools had this dichotomy.``

well, I will answer that in a minute, but could you please tell me if in the classical age of islam the state and religion had any dichotomy?

The answer, as you very well know it, religion was one with state. Since your whole existance at chowk is built around ``secualrism``, i wonder what would you do now?!!

See Mantolives, you can`t play it both ways. You can`t bring the ``classical age`` of islam to your defense, when the same ``classical age`` goes against the essence of your being. But then again, logic is a cruel thing. Either you get it, or you don`t. And you don`t.

As for your question about the dichotomy in religion and science in ``classical age`` Islamic schools - no there was no dichotomy (for the reasons i explained in my previous ilog).

An encore, if this was missed: underlined and emphasised.

#26 by echoboom on August 31, 2004 1:16pm PT
Mantolives:23
Agreed.
Just hope and pray that muslims do not get used by such thuGGs and terrorists.
A simple nod in agreement would do.I am confident you do not think or act in accordance with the policy of these thhUGGs.



Muslims make sure you do not become a pawn of these thuGGs & terrorists.

Also Keep an eye on those who are following the agenda of these avowed enemies of muslims so to not let them getaway when the time comes The westernised NGOs are now do-gooding the same job which the evil missionary-mafias of bible/flag varieties did/still do. Musharraf & Shaukat Aziz type of westoxicated scum are in cahoots with such social-engineering projects. Fail them every step of the way. Expose them. Ridicule them.
Make every minute of their move difficult for them.


what these thuGGs know not is that the Fundamentalist, die-hard, staunch muslims know no fear of anyone but Allah. Such thhuGGs & their minions will be made to see their errant ways by their own off-spring right inside their own houses. It is happening everywhere and the colonised Haramee generation is trembling in their westernboots.

The U.S blueprint against muslims