Indira Gandhi Bunaam Bush!

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#211 Humsab

i have been in there and perhaps escaped getting killed in a bus-stoppage incident.

#219 Aleph

i knew that the green revolution had something to do with it, but did not figure out the tractor-beard connection.

Overall, GOI and India are both still fairly insecure to threats of armed rebellions, and will more often use brutal techincs, be it against separatist or the maoist. Only madrasi fugitives in karnatak jungles seem to escape the heavy hand of GOI.

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#213 by kaurasach on August 19, 2004 6:10am PT

Whether it is Bhindrawale killing the innocent people or Congress/BJP goons killing the innocent minority members- both have commited un pardonable crimes- and only the innocent citizens were the victims of these political rivalries. But to call Bhindrawale a ``simpleton`` is to glorify a criminal mind. It is like calling Osama a mild mannered gentleman. Also, to equate India with Indira Gandhi is like equating Germany with Hitler.

Tell me - Was Bhindrawale a Sikh martyr in your eyes??

stuka #179

{{Why June 30th? Why Gurpurab?}}

The date was 5th-6th June, 1984 (presumably Gurpurab for that year).

#178

{{basis of the problem}}

I would be grateful if you would read and comment on this article (please don’t be put off by the rather lurid-sounding title).

It is always tempting (and may be natural for some mentalities or cultures) to lay the ultimate responsibility for major events on the proximate actions of allegedly pivotal human actors, so-called ‘heroes’ or ‘villains’ – thus ‘Jinnah and his typewriter’, ‘Indira Gandhi the dain’, ‘Zia and his generals’, etc. In my opinion it makes more sense to look at broad trends or waves, which individual politicians may try to ride or channel for their own generally myopically perceived advantage, but which they cannot really control beyond a point. I suspect that Athale’s article linked above is a better explanation of genesis of the Punjab troubles than the ones which make Indira the villain of the piece.

urstruely

should you not be attending noor mohameds funeral?

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Hindu People

I have been following this discussion intently. One thing that everyone seems to agree on is that it is government in India that kills minorities - whether they are sikhs, Mulsims in general, Muslims in Gujrat, or Muslism is Kashmir. Whose government then it is any way. If your country is a democracy then it should be your government but then how counld it kill you. Well in Pakistan when government kills its population it makes sense because it is a government of a puppet despot and a rogue military but what is wrong with you people.

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Good amusing discussion going on among those who most probably were not there when Punjab was burning except dullabhatti ji who may have seen some part of action. And none among the crowd here has seen Punjab from within Punjab for a long time now. One unanimous conclusion that Indira was responsible seems to be the only absolute truth. Rest of the arguements from both sides are coming from prejudiced mind.

Regards all.

#179 by stuka

[That is the whole point. Why did Black Thunder succeed? Why did the siege on Hazratbal succeed?]

Black Thunder was conducted by NSG commandos, specially trained for counter-terrorist operations, and the number of terrorists then was nowhere near the number at the time of Blue Star. The Hazratbal siege succeeded because there were only a handful of terrorists holed inside the shrine with limited access to food and water. The Golden Temple had more than 500 terrorists holed in and an unlimited supply of food and water. A siege would have lasted for months on, in which time the already grim situation in Punjab would have deteriorated further.

[No one is denying that action was needed. But was a full scale assault required?]

Perhaps the Army overestimated the number and strength of the terrorists holed inside the temple, but in view of the limited intelligence they had, they probably decided to err on the side of caution. In retrospect, the number of casualties they took (238 dead, twice as many injured) justified the overwhelming force that was used.

[That immediacy can only be conjured up by bringing the Pakistan factor in. The whole argument of Blue Star hinges on immediacy.]

Pakistan’s attempts at exploiting trouble inside India are not new. The 1948 and ‘65 wars are testimony to that. Operation Gibraltar (‘65) was envisaged with a view to occupying Kashmir by first sending raiders into Indian Kashmir for conducting guerrilla activities and to help the locals in organizing a movement to start an uprising against India. Once the uprising gained momentum, the Pakistan Army would invade J&K and annex it. The situation in Punjab in ‘84 was a mirror copy of J&K in ’65. So in that, the Indian Army was not mistaken.

[I cannot cooraborate a negative.]

Well, can you at least cite a source that denies Pakistan mobilized its Army at that time?

[Why June 30th? Why Gurpurab? Would Iindian Army attack a temple on Diwali if the situation required it?]

I agree the timing was wrong. They could have done that a day earlier or later. But again, you and I can only speculate. My opinion is that if it could have been avoided, the GoI would definitely have done that. Mind you, the Sikhs are not a miniscule minority and IG would have been conscious of the repercussions.

And if there is a threat to India’s integrity, I’m all for attacking even a temple on Diwali, and I’m sure the Indian Army would do so too.

[I believe that Indira Gandhi`s game plan was not just to cleanse the Golden Ttemple. Her real intention was to launch an attack on the Sikh faith and to give the message that she was all powerful.]

That’s stretching things a bit too far. What is the basis for your belief may I ask? A baseless statement if there ever was one.

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pmishra2 # 183

“Sikh community allowed itself to be hijacked by extremist elements, and did not act forcefully against these elements even after mass murders were committed in their name”.

You are absolutely right. Shame on Sikhs, and Sikhs paid price as they got clobbered by army later.

”Indira Gandhi used this extremism for her own ends, supporting it when convenient, successfully selling the bogeyman of ``sikh extremism`` to other indians when convenient”

You are right again. Shame on Indira, and Indian masses who bought the arguments from her. Indira paid the price, but her name does not live in infamy and majority of the folks still think that she was the best thing that ever happened to India.

“And at the end of all of this came the horror of the mob violence against innocent sikhs in Delhi”.

Wrong. It was not mob violence my friend. It was unadulterated Federal government sponsored, funded, and managed massacre of a loyal minority. It was the second punch of the proverbial 1-2 punch.

And after the massacre –
1. Indian “street smart voters” rewarded Rajeev with a record parliamentary mandate
2. The “democratic/judicial system” never allowed the inquiry.

This is India’s shame. Now, do you blame overseas or Indian sikhs’ alienation and anger at India?

Please remember, I am not even touching the topic of attack on Golden temple.