Lahore ka Jughraphiah

On your following comment:

[there is also the importance a particular breed of Indians still continue to give to Lahore.]

Who are they? What are you trying to imply by a ``particular breed``? And, what kind of importance that is? Why cannot you be straightforward? Please spell it out for the thick heads!

By the way, from my childhood days, I know that Sikhs are and were very touchy about Lahore. We always used to hear the rumors and gossips about Lahore`s existance on the Khalistan map. I am not qualified to validate the truth behind that.

Dear Interactors:

The ongoing debate reminds me of another intellectual vendetta waged between the Punjabis (and pro-Punjabis) and ahl-e-zuban in the 1950s. The flag of ahl-e-zuban was upheld by Niaz Fatehpuri (of Nigar) and his supporters while the Punjabi attack was led by Pitrus aided by Faiz, Imtiaz Ali Taj and others. Ahl-e-zuban accused Niaz Mandan-e-Lahore (Pitrus` group) of contaminating the purity of the Urdu language with admixtures from Punjabi language. Pitrus launched his attack on the relative illiteracy of the ahl-e-zuban group, in English literature, which they were passionately fond of quoting quite often in their writings. They made factual errors in translating proper English names and text from English into Urdu.

This vendetta lasted for quite a while and then fizzled out. In the process while it continued, some good pieces of Urdu literature were produced. Pitrus thoroughly enjoyed this vendetta and made the best of it. Regards

Mohammad Gill

And one more thing:- from here in India, when there is a one-to-one kind of interaction, then Karachi aligns with Bombay, Pindi-I`Bad aligns with Delhi.

Lahore, IMHO, is just another largish town on the banks of another river along the GT Road. Like Kanpur.

OK, it got prominence because the Indian tricolour was first unfurled in Lahore during the winter session of the Congress there in 1929, and then again in the winter of 1971, so from that point of view, it is a city with a place in history?

This simple fact is visible to all except those from Lahore, it would seem?

OK, Yasser, since you know Lahore better, I grant it to you that it is a great city. I agree that the denizens therein are very friendly, the food is tasty, the motorway is world class, the rest-stops are state of the art, and most real down to earth people from Lahore non-burger class don`t seem to mind sharing notes on realities, but never mind, never mind. So where does a comparision with Delhi come into the picture, anyway? Have you seen Ludhiana lately, or Karnal? I think Lahore should be proud that it is being compared to these cities.

However, these facts which are not palatable are also true of Lahore:-

a) The atmospheric pollution and fine dust that gets into your lung.

b) The largely visible male pre-dominance.

c) A truly terrible ``International Train`` with corrupt customs/immigrations/cops to boot.

d) Lack of cultural avenues and opportunities except for the elite upper class.

e) And the latest - an Indian chopper just ups and flies from Amritsar to Lahore, hovers around over Lahore, and flies right back without being challenged. They must have got an idea of the geography of Lahore, too? Can`t wait to see the tapes . . .

+++

And why is it that Yasser of Lahore has always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis Delhi, since times immemorial? I don`t see anybody else objecting.

romair,

.... i think it is not fair to compare islamabad with lahore since islamabad is not a south asian city - it is about twenty minutes from south asia ............i only wish it was twenty minutes from lahore - that way we could have had the best of both worlds ..............

............ with all this hoopla about delhi i am tempted to go and see for myself what vereesh is talking about ........... is there a time of the year when there are no indians in delhi?

PS: Cities with uncertain futures don`t expand on daily basis, add office space on daily basis, make new roads/underpasses/city junctures/flyover on daily basis, don`t have investment pouring on daily basis, don`t have private schools popping up daily, don`t have outsourcing firms set up daily from the US... don`t have ministers of western countries like Germany coming and talking about the suitable invesment climate... Lahore is a city like no other.... and only an arrogant and pompous Dehli wallah, frustrated by his own city`s intertia, can say something as ignorant and idiotic as this.... or call Lahore a city of 8 million plus people a `little city` for that matter.

And if someone tells the truth and bursts this dude`s bubble ... instead of refuting any of the arguments... this WOG from Dehli simply declares that person to be `erudite argumentative` and with `egoist`...

This is so typical of people who can`t move forward an argument on a factual basis.

Veeresh...

That was typical word twisting.... all I said was your arrogant analysis and analogy of the West Germany and East Germany was wrong ....

Now you are a simple man.... few months ago you were boasting about Dehli`s Cash Class and cars.... wonderful.

You were wrong about the trains... and now you are wrong about the airport... a trip through Allama Iqbal International will remind you, much like the motorway, that modern luxury is not exclusive possession of the west alone.... honestly Allama Iqbal International is better than any Airport I have visited in the west.... and I have been to all the major ones....

So you say Lahore`s airport is empty... this never actually having been there.. a better argument would have been ... it is brand new.... but then again Karachi`s Jinnah International Airport has been used extensively for more than a decade.... and it is still as clean and pleasant .... if not as pretty as the Allama Iqbal International...


So Nation and Ausaf are to you the best newspapers of Pakistan? Did you even bother picking up a copy of the Dawn, Daily Times, or The News? Did you bother reading through Friday times... or checking up on Sunday Times? Amazing ....


Ignoring the Karakoram trains that have been inducted, and looking at some train you saw in Lahore (which I am sure was still better than the trains we see in Indian Movies : Please refer to ``Kuch Kuch Hota hai`` ... a movie that tried to present India as a modern commercialized hip hop haven.... as an example)... to put down Lahore is a novel approach...

so you went to the train station... big deal.... a large portion of Baratis went to Karachi for my wedding last december through the same train station.... and I am afraid that while it is not top notch... it is a station equipped... why there are multiple McDonalds and KFC outlets right there on the station who have added a touch of `globalization` you crave... generally it just isn`t as bad as you want to portray it...

Please do us a favor... read Zahraj`s post... and hamidm`s post...

As for comparing Lahore and Dehli... please rest assure... there is no comparison... Lahore stands out head and shoulders above that city of yours... which is nothing by an extended ghetto and scum in liveability.... this ofcourse is the view of atleast one Indian who was amused to learn of your pompous arrogance... let me remind you what Aakar Patel (of Times of India, and Midday I believe) wrote: ``Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.``http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1



And while we are on the topic of the ``Colonial WOGs`` ... WOG = Western Oriented Gentleman... for those of us who are not aware... Dude... only 2 months ago you claimed:

Most people in Dehli speak in English, People in Lahore don`t speak English

Now that was a statement that spoke a thousand words about your `anti-colonial` `anti-Wog` orientation...


-YLH

Dude... you have some nerve talking about factual basis... facts, truth etc are terms that are alien to people like you. Refer to my previous post... I have been to the train station many times... and you simply lying out of your teeth... and what is worse is that you know it too...

Comparing an urban slum like Dehli to a cultured city like Lahore is a crime against humanity... As for Salman Ahmed of Junoon... I followed his trip to Patiala, and you have just made up that story about him... Please do quote him from a source .... oh but that you can`t do...


You have evaded everyone`s questions... you have simply thrown up your own biases which are rooted in an unfounded superiority complex and nothing else...

-YLH

echoboom:

Majaz wrote another tart regarding Punjab, taking a shot at Hafeez:

Wahaan ka husn tau sub kuchh haiy maana
Magr khuud Ishq tau Jalandhri haiy

khamkhwa:

I like your Punjabi light-heartedness.

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

ZahraJ/30 - thank you for your observations.

Apart from the fact that my parents studied there, hailed from Punjab, there is also the importance a particular breed of Indians still continue to give to Lahore. That is what I wanted to see, and that is where I am coming from, when you rightly sense the disappointment which some others mistake for arrogance and comparatives.

a) Lahore was at one time, no doubt, very important in the nature of things of what was, then, undivided India and environs. As was, probably, Rawalpindi, Colombo, Aden, Djibouti, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Saigon/Cochin-China, Rangoon, Kakinada, Surat, Shimla, Moradabad, Chauri-Chaura, Gwalior, Darbhanga, Mysore, Hyderabad_Deccan, Travancore, Hong Kong, etc.etc.etc.

b) Post 2nd World War, post end of colonial powers, post partition, with the exit of the British, new centres of importance emerged at different places in different ways. In India, over 57 years of Independence later, there is a certain amount of federal structure and lateral movement of ``importance`` to many other cities.

c) I was told that it was similar in Pakistan, that colonialism had been trounced, that the people reigned supreme. Lahore`s position was always held out as an equivalent to Delhi. Till I got there myself.

In that context, Lahore is closer in my analysis to cities in India like Ludhiana, Jullundur, Mandi Gobidngarh, Sirhind, Ambala, Karnal . . . also because they are, also, on the same GT Road. Delhi is an absolutely different kettle of fish. To start with, demographics of Delhi are hardly Punjabi majority anymore.

d) Now, in the context of Ind-Pak relations, I think Lahore, wannabe Lahorians, and its noble residents need to benchmark themselves against similar habitats along the GT Road. Not Delhi. And if they don`t understand that, then I am not here to compare malls and Food Streets and airport terminals.

I am here to say that I think poor old Lahore has been glorified for far too long. IMHO, it is just a sad little city with a great past and a doubtful future.

And it seems to be full of a large number or erudite argumentative people who will not go out in the morning to see a ramshackle train to take an argument forward on factual basis.

I think even Patiala compares well with Lahore. That`s what the group Junoon said, anyways.

...there was this stampede in mecca a few years ago and many people died. majha was also there, had performed hajj and was safe and sound. he phoned home to his loved ones and told them not to worry as he was perfectly alright...and then asked his eldest son...to chaRhao a degh at data darbar for shukrana...lahore lahore ay...;)

Mr. Gill, another nugget.

A veeresh type observation about Lahore:

When Majaz visited Lahore and the returned to his hometown Lucknow someone asked him;

So I heard you went to Lahore. How did you find it?

and Majaz said:

Well the place is ok; but yaar too many Panjabis!

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#21: Freethinker: I am not sure if i would consider satire equivalent to wit.

Thank you for highlighting who`s who and who`s from where. Unfortunately, Indian movies, singers and actors have never been my cup of tea. I certainly have appreciation for the poets and writers(at times), but that`s it. I think Rudyard Kipling`s birth-town was also Lahore. I have never come across his family harping on that attachment. I mean it`s fine to have an attachment but it`s rididulous to dwell on it for the rest of your life. My 5 cents.

#29: Whether Lahore is full of mitti, dhooan, highways, overheads, river Ravi, Bareezae, Auriga, Fortress, Horse and Cattle Show....whatever ... The city is 100,000 times better than the den of taez taez bolnae walae loag who cause immediate headache (KHI) as well as the ghost town which is full of chill and fog as the season changes (ISLBD).

#28: Can you be succinct in your arguments around Lahore? I am having some issues in figuring out your exact dilemma. What is that you are exactly trying to point towards? The bad infrastructure? Poor facilities? What? First of all, if that was your 1st trip to Lahore then I have to say that for you to expect something spectacular was unreasonable to begin with. Many of us who have ties with the city do get a pleasant surprise when we compare the old infrastructure to the new one. One of my khalas just got back over the last weekend and had her share of positve experiences, visting the city after 3 years or so. She used to teach at Aitchison in 70s. Since most of her siblings and old friends still live in Lahore therefore it was a definite break for her from her academic routine in NY. In my case, none of my close friends who pursued a career are in Lahore therefore it`s a different scenario for me. I have family there and I only land there to visit them and come back. I have no desire to explore the culture. I have simply grown out of it.

I am interested in knowing the point that disappointed you. And, before I even go there, why were you even expecting anything? I am not sure if your ancestry is from Lahore or its vicinity and that`s what took you back??? Still, I am kind of clueless on your detailed analysis. I guess I have to accept that I have only skimmed through your posts therefore i could not find the point of your displeasure.

Well, there is definite hypocrisy in the culture and its traditions, but Lahore cannot be made responsible for all of it. There is frustration in the masses and no value for time. Again, you cannot blame the city for that upside down life-style. There is little or no independance and privacy when it comes to an individual`s life and decisions. Again, that is not the hallmark of Lahore only. I have come across some Karachiites where the adult guys` mothers would tell them stories every night before they go to sleep. One of the said kind was a prospective suitor that I ran into in NY City. After hearing about his mental situation and emotional dependency, I decided to let his mother be his coach and guide for the rest of his life. I hope I have covered everything.

Translations are very hard to do. I think they should be encouraged. If one is to be critical of them, then one should be able to provide a better translation, of one`s own.

Asiaweek, the magazine, does quite detailed analyses of asian cities. They look at a lot of statistics, e.g.

average life expectancy
• hospital beds per 1,000 people
• per-capita state spending on education
• average class size in primary school
• university-educated people as a % of the total population
• sulfur dioxide in the air (ppm)
• nitrogen dioxide in the air (ppm)
• dust/suspended particles in the air ‹ micrograms per cubic meter (µg/m3)

etc. etc.

It is the only such scientific analyses I know of about South Asian cities. The last one they did was in 2000. That was the year when Pakistan was close to becoming a failed stated. It has improved significantly, economically and culturally, since then. I am not sure where India was in 2000 i.e. better or worse than where it is today?

Based on their analysis, the best city to live in South Asia, in 2000, was Islamabad. It came in at 24 in Asia. The second best in South Asia was Banglore, which was 27th in Asia. The others that were mentioned were:

Islamabad (24)
Banglore (27)
Colombo (29)
Delhi (31)
Bombay (33)
Karachi (38)
Dhaka (39)

These rankings were about the same in 1998 also. Though Colombo was one place ahead of Islamabad, as the best city in South Asia.

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/asiacities2000/cities.intro.html


Lahore, apparently did not get ranked. But people can get a good idea of where it would rank by figuring out where it would rank amongst Pakistani cities that are ranked. During my days, it ranked between Islamabad and Karachi, according to my opinion. Karachi is still in as bad shape as it was before. And Islamabad has gotten more crowded, and worse, than during my days. I haven`t visited Lahore in 10 years. However, everyone of my friends who visits it now says (thanks to Shahbaz Sharif and Kamran Lashari) Lahore now ranks higher than Islamabad, by quite a margin.