Lahore ka Jughraphiah

ZahraJ/21 - your response brings out a point I am trying to make - alive traditions show reality more than dead histories. And that`s what I am doing when I point out what I think about Lahore.

Yasser/various - I salute your loyalty to your city. Just understand where I am coming from - I am fed up to here with tales of Lahore by wannabe colonial feudal WOGs who came to India in 1947 and screwed up the system. We`ve finally managed to make many of them irrelevant, wth great effort. You want to hang on to your lot, that`s fine by us. Just don`t compare Lahore to Delhi, the equation changed decades ago, both cities went in different directions. Good or bad, who am I to decide?

Now, for all of us, I request you to:

a) Please visit Lahore station early in the morning when the Lahore-Wagah-Attari special rolls out. As a Pakistani citizen, you can also buy the simple 50/- ticket and ride in the train till Wagah/Pakistan, pay another few hundred rupees to mingle and observe, and then ride back to Lahore in a share-taxi/micro-bus or have your car/bike pick you up. And then tell me, without any emotion, whether this rattletrap train and all the goes with it should be permitted to project Pakistn`s image? If I were a true Lahori, i would be picketing the office of the Chairman of the Pakistan Railways, never mind the free Chinese built rakes that EVERY Pakistani reminds me about lately.

I don`t know which trains you saw in which Indian movies. Maybe you can get hold of a copy of The Burning Train, an old Vinod Khanna/Dharmendra movie. Or you can visit http://www.raildwar.com for a broader perspective. Or you can wait for the RCF-Kapurthala coaches being made for PR to roll into Pakistan. Or when you travel to India next, take the PR train from Lahore to Attari, then hop on to a taxi for the Attari-Amritsar stretch, and use the connecting LHB-Shatabdi for the Amritsar-Delhi leg after a shower at Amritsar Station. There, I gave away most of the next episode!

b) Food Street is fine, and anything triple fried in animal fat is even better. Good on you. Gastronome delight, fine. And I agree, I am just a simple person, so your Lahore high-life evades me. Glad to hear that there is no poverty in Lahore.

c) On airports, let me hazard a guess, are they squeaky clean due to lack of usage?

d) On Western Plays, I did meet up with the ``in crowd`` from Lahore when I went to see Phantom of the Opera in Islamabad. The home truths I got are mainly from them. So chill. And I stand by what I had said, whether it was The Nation, Daily Times, Dawn or Daily Khabrain, Jang or Daily Ausaf, or the Express brought out by the journos I met in the train, the cultural scene advertised and/or reported is and was zilch.

e) Point on Daewoo buses is simple - they are lovely, state of the art. Nothing else. Be happy.

+++

Pitrus was not being funny. I think he was being very sad and truthful.

I would like to think that Pakistan should try to be more like the interchange on the M2 than some colonial relic going on and and on and on about past history.

Will the inertia bound Lahoris permit that?

Jiye Pakistan, sure, but get rid of the baggage first.

And some of you should get a sense of humour too, while you are at it.

khamkhwa:

Thank you for lightening up the discussion and capturing the essence of Pitrus` ``Lahore ka Jughrafia.`` Why can`t the people understand that ``Lahore is Lahore.`` Is it so difiicult?

Mohammad Gill

...majha and gama having performd umra, met in the haram one afternoon... after small talk...majha asked gama...yaar gamay tuannu makka changa lagya ?....replied gama... aaho jee vadda sohna shahr ay per lahore lahore ay...;)

ylh,

.... can`t you see that verlock, in the manner of all banias, is trying to trick you into funding his next trip to lahore ?...........

.......... all i can say is that when i visited lahore recently after about ten years, i was pleasently surprised and, to be honest, a little envious .............. it is a great city by any measure except, maybe, air pollution ............ this vereesh guy might have a point there ...........

ZahraJ:

Since you do not seem interested in answering the questions at the end of the essay, I suggest that YLH write on Q.1: Why do you like Lahore? Write in detail. The answer should be humorous and witty without attacking any living persons.

Since Veeresh seems to know so much about Lahore, I suggest that he should answer Q.2: Who discovered Lahore and Why? The composition should be witty and humorous without negative reflections on Pakistanis.

I wish I had not been away from Lahore so long otherwise I would have tried writing the answers to these questions myself. Wishing all of you well,

Mohammad Gill

Veeresh...

Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me despite its antique quality... it is nothing new ofcourse... we have experienced this from you for a long time ( I don`t want to revisit your IAF boasts and embarrass you... unlike you I do have some respect for your chita sar).... you come up with `facts` which are just not true. I don`t know what English or Urdu newspapers you read... but cultural events are advertised all over... it is not about introspection.... Introspection doesn`t mean you lie and I accept your lie. What is wrong is wrong...


Introspection ?

My introspection is not unknown... what is wrong with Pakistan is wrong with Pakistan... and I think I have pointed out what is wrong with Pakistan as much as anyone else on this board.... but when an arrogant Dehli wallah decides to lie about Lahore and make East Germany vs West Germany comparisons.... I am afraid I don`t agree... My question : Are Ambala, Pathankot, Jallundur, Amritsar etc 8 million strong and area as big as Lahore? The answer is No.... As for egos.... We don`t want to be compared to a city like Dehli... as the Indian friend said ...Dehli doesn`t even come close... now your ignorance is palpable even in the claims you make ... for example...


Trains

Pakistani trains don`t run beyond Amritsar is not because of the reason you have cited but because such a link has never been planned for security reasons. Pakistan has employed the new state of the art Karakarom trains only a few years ago... they go at greater speeds than you claim, between Lahore and Karachi.... going between Lahore and Karachi within 13 hours... Karakoram trains are actually at par with most trains in the west... but ofcourse you just missed the Karakoram trains right? Since we in Pakistan have been watching Indian Movies for a long time.... I am yet to see a Modern train ... or do Indian film makers only use antique models from the railway stations... But lets say you are right (though you are clearly not).... so you are saying that Lahore is bad because the trains in Lahore are hand painted... very nice. Amazing how you twist and turn your words ....But do you see the latent bigotry in your own words? Were we even talking about trains... yet you chose to talk about something you don`t know much about, as you have done in the past about the superior capability and skills of mighty IAF pilots simply because your brother is a pilot....

It is amazing .... just amazing.... you know don`t come to Pakistan.... people like you can`t change their minds.... you are incapable of it.



Elitist Parties ? and Food Street??? Hain???

So going to ``Food Street`` is elitist? Have you been to a food street ever? It is in Old Inarkali... and in Gwalmandi... the food is extremely cheap ... and the place attracts people from all walks of life ... not the elite... this very statement of yours shows me how utterly and totally wrong you are. Food street is for everyone.... and it is amazing... amazing what the joint venture of culture, food and commercialization can do...

Dude I am not asking you to go to the Parties at Gulberg... or hang out in Y Block Defence... or hang out with yuppie Model crowd or the Burger families... or listen to the elite radio stations like FM 89.09.... though do so by all means.... they will show you a High living you probably can`t imagine where you are from... By all means go down Main Boulevard... and look at how fast those mini-sky scrapers are coming up.... and all that jazz... check out the new residential projects ... check out the houses.... I am sure it will too much for a pretend capitalist like yourself.... by all means....

But what I am asking you instead to mingle with the common man.... go to Heera Mandi and FazalDin`s Paye... eat at Coccoo`s Cafe, where everyone from the common man to Jinnah sahab`s daughter has had something to eat.... go to Food street eat there.... go to Laxmi Chowk at 1 am and have Kashmiri Chai.... get Baba ji`s Kulfi at Wahdat Road ... eat out at Beadon road... eat Nihari at 4 a.m in the old city.... Listen to F M 100...

And while you are at it... instead of looking for `cultural events` in newspapers, though you find plenty in them.... look for cultural events in the city itself... go to Al Hamra Arts Council on mall for cheap public entertainment.... contact the in crowd for the Western plays... go to Al Hamra Open Air near Qaddafi for other entertainment...

And if you still can`t get a decent view of the city.... call me 300 848 5200 and I will show you around...


Buses

So Daewoo is now owned by Tata... how is that relevant to the discussion.... does that mean that the Daewoo transportation in Lahore is suddenly not there? or is Tata thinking of dismantling deliberately the Pakistani operations? Ah well... thankfuly enough new companies are coming up.. till I don`t understand your point...

-YLH

PS:

About Lahore`s Allama Iqbal international Airport.... it is not merely clean... it is one of the prettiest in the world.... but you will not use it... because you are scared that it will burst your bubble of superiority irreparably ....

Ah well... some people just don`t learn... or unlearn anything... you are like another resident of Dehli... quite the Peter Pan...

ZahraJ:

Pitrus Bukhari wrote eleven witty and humorous essays and published them in his book ``Pitrus kay Mazameen.`` Lahore ka Jughrafia is the last essay in the book. They are written in a light vein and one can enjoy them if one doesn`t take them seriously. Some readers have taken ``Lahore kaa Jugraphia`` quite seriously. What Pitrus wrote in his essay is not the literal truth; literal truth is seldom humorous.

I took a brief break from my serious writing and thought I should share Pitrus` wit with the readers here on Chowk. Now Mr. Veeresh is trying his best to prove that Lahore is not as attractive as YLH and some other interactors are suggesting. They are not commenting on Pitrus` composition but have brought in the extraneous and perpetual India versus Pakistan vendetta. People never get tired of this futile engagement.

I had tried diverting them away from this boring discussion by suggesting that Lahore does hav interesteing features in which even the foreigners are interested. Think of the historical people who were linked to Lahore. Iqbal, Faiz, Manto, Pitrus, Abdus Salam, Chandrasekhar, an Indian Nobel Laureate in Physics, wh was born in Lahore, Mohammad Rafi, the late and great Bollywood singer, lived in Lahore, Nur Jahan, and there are so many others. My attention was drawn to the fact that even the Nobel Laureate Dr. Khoranna was connected to Lahre.

Ismat Chughtai was in Lahore with Manto for a law suit, Ismat for her Lihaf and Manto for his Thanda Ghosht. Delhi will not become any grander by putting Lahore down; Delhi is a great city in its own right. I don`t remember the name of the person (perhaps Shaukat Thanvi) who quipped, ``The only bad thing about Delhi is that it is situated in a wrong country.`` Guys, enjoy the wit and take leave for a change from the boring war of words highlighting the merits and demerits of two great cities. In this discussion, both of them get soiled. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Freethinker: It seems to me that this feature was part of some Urdu Text Book at one point and time. Why would anyone would like to ponder on the above questions in detail in today`s day and age? If he/she is writing a thesis on Lahore that is something completely different. I just find it absurd for writers or interactors to concentrate so much on one major city of Pakistan. This is obsession regardless of the association or attachment or ties.

On the same note, I equally despise the constant tussle between Lahore and Karachi on Chowk. It`s simply repulsive. Those sentiments have also been repeated so many times on Chowk that I feel the writers need to be sent to a mental asylum to get over their infatuation or frustrations.

This whole India is better than Pakistan or vice versa, Lahore is bigger than Delhi, Muslims are cuter than non-Muslims, and Bombay rocks is completely stupid. I guess you need this kind of stupidity to satisfy the male ego on both sides of the border.

Whatever Veeresh`s intentions are or have been, some of his points are applicable to the article under discussion.

[A city`s cultural barometer is not simply some elitist option behind closed doors. ]

This is a very true assessment. This assessment was incomplete since it forgot to highlight the conservativeness of those who celebrate Basant with full fervor.

Yasser/various - I can understand your angst. Introspection does not come easily to the best of us. Believe me, I go walkabout in the seamier parts of Delhi often enough to realise the truths. Find one inter-action where I have objected to anybody`s reportage on Delhi. Delhi, or for that matter any other large city, is such a vast canvas that everything is a truth.

But Lahore, this is not a large city. Lahore is, and there is no comparision involved, just another city in the dusty plains of The Punjab. It happens to be across a political border for us Indians, but that`s about it.

So:-

a) I have never denied the truth about Delhi, whatever it is, whether by long stay residents or transitory observations. If you feel a bullock cart is representative, well so be it, why should I object to your truths?

On Lahore, my visit was much more than a cursory transit.

All I am objecting to is this mythical comparison of Lahore with Delhi. These two habitats are qualitatively and quantitatively different, not comparable. Lahore is better measured against a smaller canttonment town in India, like Ambala or Pathankot or Jullundur or Faridkot or Kapurthala. Maybe Amritsar. Yes, egos for people from Lahore seem to be much bigger, and thus easily punctured.

b) On atmospheric pollution, please take a closer look at SPM and other measured parameters lately, for Delhi, available open domain. Unfortunately, such data is not available for Lahore. However, during my stay there, I was subjected to this amazing fine dust in the International Train between Lahore and Attari, and atmospheric pollution of a sort that reminded me of the worst of Delhi circa 1996/97. And I have more than once mentioned here that Delhi`s atmospheric pollution was the worst in the world, at one time. What`s wrong in the truth? Lahore is ringed by habitation where open fires and wierd fuels seem to be the rule, and that is a fact.

c) I still have copies of the English and Urdu newspapers and magazines on the stalls during my visit. There is not a SINGLE cultural event advertised in them. That is a simple fact. A city`s cultural barometer is not simply some elitist option behind closed doors. As for ``hordes during Basant``, well, good for them. Pakistan has been a closed country for Indians for some time now, and there is simple curiosity.

d) Yes, Pakistan`s airports are reputed to be very clean. I did not use them, so I did not comment. But I did specifically mention that the one public toilet I went to on the Islamabad - Lahore Motorway was up to Changi standards. If you don`t read that, what can I do? Damned if you do, damned if you don`t. On the other hand, the area around Lahore station, on and around the tracks, is full of early morning squatters doing what comes naturally to them. So be it. What else is new?

e) If I talk about public transport by Daewoo, now owned by Tata, your sort pillory me. If I don`t talk about it, and mention Hino now controlled by Hinduja Ahok Leyland, again I am taken apart. If I go only to the Motorway, I am called elitist. If I head for Yadgar or Skyways or Niazi, then I am called names. But I have not seen a hand-painted train with tack welds for window bars in India for the last 30 years now. I suggest you nip across to Platform 1 or 2 and take a closer look at the Pride of Pakistan Railways, the ``International Train`` from Lahore/Pakistan to Attari/India before you give me gyaan on public transport.

And since I am getting it in the neck anyway, shall I tell you why the Pakistan Railway rake can not operate to Delhi anymore, not beyond Amritsar? Because it is not fit for speeds over 80 kmph, that`s why, and on the Amritsar-Delhi track, the existing ``path`` is at 120 kmph. It is another truth that this ``path`` got terribly impacted recently due to the floods!!

The newer rakes being ordered by PR, from the ICF at Kapurthala, if I am not mistaken, shall be designed for 120 kmph. Good for all of us, and don`t bother denying it, please?

f) As for human rights, sodomy, cops . . . I agree, things are bad all over. But at least in an ``International Train``, your uniformed cops and immigration guys and customs dudes should have SOME restraint? I know for a fact that nobody on this chowk, maybe nobody in the Pakistani media, has ever taken the trouble to wake up early and spend all of 50/- rupees to report on the morning train from Lahore to Wagah. Why don`t you, Yasser, it will be a bit of an early morning drag, but you will then agree, I hope, that I am not making things up.

g) Yasser, I am due into Lahore as a guest in a few weeks and this time around, I plan to do it First Class all the way. I have some of the elite from Pakistan disagreeing on my reportage, and they want me to review my opinion. Fair enough, I have no doubt that viewed from that angle, Lahore will be the best experience I have had, as an individual. But will that be the truth?

I viewed my trip as an introspection of sorts, by somebody who, but for a decision made a generation ago, would have probably been a Pakistani. Can you try to understand the pain I have when I place these observations, and my i request you (never mind some of the immature others) to re-read my reports on how I have tried to be more than fair as well as positive. But then, am I supposed to shut my eyes to the truth and be sycophantic? Is Pakistan all about Blue Areas and parties and Food Street and Gulberg and GOR only?

Malik99...

Finally we do agree on something...

As a fellow Lahori you will be happy to know that Lahore is getting even better...

When the unbiased history of Lahore is written, 4 names will loom large than others ... Ranjit Singh, Shahbaz Sharif, Kamran Lashari and Mian Amir Mahmood...

I am sure when you come to Lahore next you will find it completely transformed... why the underpasses on the Canal alone , 4 built in the last 6 months alone, have revolutionized travelling in Lahore... the way Old Lahore has been renovated... the food streets... even the old red light district.... amazing... Every year during Basant time, hordes of Indians descend on the city ... wonder why if they think Lahore is so mediocre ... apparently most of them consider Lahori parties to be better than what they have back home...


I think Aakar Patel`s view definitely is closer to the truth than Veeresh Malik`s which is based on his overflight, his expertise in geographical demarcation through naked eye while flying 30 000 feet in the sky, his visit to the railway station of Lahore and his rather smug assumption that Lahore hasn`t changed since 1971.... (apparently our friend Veeresh Malik didn`t even bother to pay 250 Rupees fare on the Daewoo Express to travel to Islamabad.... instead he chose the worst bus possible from the Yadgar so as to prove a point about Pakistan.... On a side note: I swear if I go to India, I will travel on bullock cart and claim that this is the inter-city coach used by the Indian masses)

-YLH

Zahraj:

Yes, the questions at the end of the essay are part of the original Pitrus` ``Lahore ka Jughrafia.`` I was hoping someone will care to write answers to those questions. But Mr. Veeresh has diverted the flow entirely in another direction.

Why can`t we agree on ``Lahore is Lahore`` and ``Delhi Is What It Is.`` Both are unique in their own ways.

``Kaun jaiye Zauq per Delhi kee galiyan chhor kar``

Meer said:

``Delhi jo ikk shahr thaa alam mein intikhab
Rahtay thhay muntikhab hee jahan rozgaar kay
......................................................................
Uss ko falak ney loot kar weeraan kar diya
Hum rahnay waalay hain ussi ujaray diyar kay``

That is old story; Delhi is no longer `ujara diyar.` The first part may still be correct.

Be well,

Mohammad Gill

[Male-female interaction: Muslims generally are more conservative...... ]

To correct your above assertion: Muslims generally are hypocrites but they like to wear a facade of being conservative. That`s much more closer to reality. Let`s accept it.

Freethinker: Out of curiosity, are the questions at the end of this article part of the feature on Lahore?

Veeresh: Some of your expectations are unrealistic, but your argument on the cultural scenario is right on the money. There is way too much focus on supporting Kashmiris and Afghanis. If a tourist visits the country then it will make them wonder. On the other hand, even the expats get concerned on the prevalent mania.

Aakar Patel`s View vs Veeresh Malik`s arrogance:


Sources of Aakar Patel`s views: Residence in Lahore for a few weeks as a Journalist, Following the cricket series between Pakistan and India, an Open mind, no hang ups jealousy, not being born in 1971.

Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1




Sources of our friend Veeresh Malik`s expertise on Lahore: ``Railway Station``, ``Overflight``, and ``friends who have visited Pakistan in 1971``

Despite Veeresh Malik`s provocative misrepresentation about my city, so far I have refrained from making comments about Dehli as I have never visited Dehli myself (nor do I wish to after knowing that some of its most eloquent representatives are turning out to be quite twisters of facts), but the kind of outright inaccuracies that are being put by a Dehli Wallah (who has no regard for his own chita sar) of all people about Lahore... I am going to have to recollect some of the things I have heard from people who have visited both Lahore and Dehli....

I am sad that it has to come to this.... but when a Dehliwallah (of the city once hailed as the most polluted in Asia) starts talking about air pollution, it can cause fits of laughter. Let us not compare Lahore and Dehli in this respect... a valid argument would be that Dehli has roughly 4 to 5 million more people than Lahore has... but puh-lease... from very neutral and even Indian sources, what I have heard about Dehli and the comparison with Lahore... The air is supposed to be significantly better in Lahore...


Facts about Size: Lahore has 8 million people. It is spread from Ravi, right down to Multan Road... and spreading some 42 Km towards Kasur.... that means Lahore is extremely spread out... perhaps more so than Dehli.

Atmospheric Pollution : I have already pointed out that coming from a Dehli wallah such an assertion is laughable... Every environmentalist knows the truth about this statement... so Ha Ha...

Cultural Scene: Lahore`s cultural scene is world famous... We have a wide range of plays, and theatre which is rather extensive.... infact you will find almost all kind of theatre in Pakistan, from the fancy English Plays, to the vulgar Punjabi ones for the consumption of the populace.... There is no cultural scene like Lahore especially between November and March .... the whole city is nothing but a huge cultural festival...

Human Rights: Your tale is so incredible that there isn`t even a chance of it being true... However the tales I`ve heard about Dehli`s cops beating up and sodomizing young men are even worse.... maybe they are untrue as well...

Public Transport: Public Transport in the last few years has become at par with New Jersey atleast... there are multiple Bus companies, the best one being Daewoo which runs both in city and out city buses... again there are several kinds of buses... I am willing to bet that there is not one city in the entire subcontinent that has the efficient Bus transport system like the Daewoo inter city and Lahore City Buses, and the Double Decker Buses that were recently acquired.... Infact I am willing to bet that the Daewoo Buses that run to other cities, with in-bus service, bus hostesses, comfortable seats will be a notch higher than Veeresh Malik`s country`s national air carrier.


Male-female interaction: Muslims generally are more conservative... but step into a Shopping Mall ... any shopping Mall in Lahore these days... and you will find women extremely active in economic life... this is true of Lahore... not necessarily of other cities in Pakistan... for example even in Karachi, I don`t see women working in the malls in such large numbers.


You are a funny guy Veeresh.... you desperately want to make that comparison don`t you ... between East Germany and West Germany.... well that analogy doesn`t work for several reasons.... but also because India is not some capitalist haven free of poverty... infact quite the contrary, the general impression that most Indians leave is that Lahore is remarkably less poorer, remarkably brighter, and happier.... Next time please refrain from making comments which have no roots in reality.


Sorry to burst your little superiority bubble yet again... but some how you always seem to live in this huge bubble that needs to be burst... this bubble of ignorance, arrogance and blind eye...

-YLH