Lahore ka Jughraphiah

malik99/75 and Romair/71 - thank you for Romair`s inputs on the Pakistan Gvernment Census, but would either of you like to review the credibility of that first? Please note, in one of my episodes, I did mention that while in Islamabad and `Pindi I did try to acquire maps and census data. And subsequently, I did try to analyse the credibility of this dat. The PHRC has some interestng things to say about the data and statistics. For example, just how many Buddhists are there in Pakistan today? What is the female-male birth ratio even in urban centres like Karachi?

Local culture of holding hands? In Lahore? And Yasser has not yet endorsed it. Where is the location of the world famous al Kukad Fry Lahore Centre for Holding Hands and is it gender biased or what?

Omar/74 - ah, the intrepid follow me here too, how sweet! Monday morning, no time for a cut and paste at the Department for Propaganda, Karachi? And so now you too jump on to the sweet Romair`s little red herring? Great, are we all to assume that it is official policy at ``The Dawn`` to take all Government statistics and data and press releases and accept them as absolute truth? Is there any back-up investigative or article at The Dawn on the data gathered by the 1998 Pak Govt census?

No, Omar, I stayed at a middle-level hotel in Islamabad, and similar in Lahore, next episode due soon, and moved around on my own. Sigh. I did not step into one official vehicle. Even more sigh. I never took advantage of any protocol at any border. Sigh Sigh SIGH.

veeresh: ``Pakistan is as much the land of my fore-fathers as it is for others who live here today.``

wonder if he will ever stop this humbug --



veeresh: ``... And I have right to a validated viewpoint.`` - correction oh wise one -- it should right to a ``warped/twisted/insidious viewpoint

yasser posts 55, 54, 53 -- very well said regarding the insidious paki basher aka the wise sage of chowk --


ylh: ``Veeresh has never hidden his contempt for anything he considers anti-Indian... and he is often wrong ... he is a patriot and an ultra-nationalist Indian who knows as a journalist how to conceal the truth... still back when Arundhati Roy was visiting Lahore... he couldn`t contain his contempt and hatred for all she stands for... no tolerance for an opposing point of view... he is the man of the establishment... a true measure of his character is the posts he puts up here... ``

you have hit the nail on the head - i actually surmised that given the kind of treatment he says he received in pakistan he would have stayed with either the high commissioner himself or raghavan sahib the deputy HC -- obviously he is going to be an ultra nationalist and his anti-pakistan views are so virulent that he cant disguise them as much as he would like

---

he is laughable and one should laugh at him and not take him too seriously -- but the regrettable thing is that some pakistani interactors actually see good/redeeming qualities in him -- led by the lady of the lahore airport sanitary napkin fiasco fame

and by the way ylh sahib, he isnt really a journalist in the sense he is a freelancer and is apparently into writing more about motorcars and `travel journeys` --

i think kkkandk`s analogy of the bear was excellent -- for whatever reason, senility, hate or blindness (probably a bit of all three) he seems to do this deliberately and probably savours the `feedback` he gets from all of us --

veeresh - you wrote ``And most of all, Lahore has the absolute world record in terms of men walking around holding each others hands, so chill. ``

For a man who is the self proclaimed ``citizen of the world``, this is a shockingly narrow minded view where you can`t even respect a local culture of men holding hands. Who the hell would give you a ``citizenship`` when you don`t even show respect to their culture?

So now, thanks to Romair`s research, it turns out that despite your repeated statements, Pakistan DID in fact had a census done in 1998. AND it is on the web. So where else are you wrong!! If you could continue insisting on something that is factually wrong, I am now convinced that debating with you is an utter waste of time.

#71 by Romair on September 5, 2004 8:10pm PT
vereesh #68: Vereesh, I don`t want to jump into an interesting catfight between you and Mantolives, but I am doing this for your own good. You may want to quit while you are ahead. It is hard to debate things about places which one is barely familiar with.....

``As for the population levels in Lahore, let us address the simple fact that there has not been a cencus in Pakistan for almost quarter of a century.``


well well shri veeresh jee -- seems me tahmed, dion, hp and kkkandk arent the only ones who dont buy your BS and see through your `travelogues` and `expertise` on pakistan -- glad you caught that romair -- the raving lunatic has been caught with his pants down -- and he`s not wearing anything ! haha -- the last census wasnt held over a quarter of a century ago you fool, the simple fact is that the last census was held in 1998 -- dont they tell you that in south block before they send you to pakiland ?


zahraJ stop defending raving paki haters who love to twist facts lest your own worth falls in the eyes of all us -- and by the way, the suitor or would be suitor whose mom, according to you, would read stories to him is not a karachi or even a pakistan thing -- he was just a nutcase and you can get pretty worse nutcases regardless of geographical origin --

ylh sahib -- the sage will go and on with his drivel -- do you have the time and energy to deal with the bear each time resurfaces?

and where is kkkandk when one needs him ? where??

veeresh: ``Pakistan is as much the land of my fore-fathers as it is for others who live here today.``

wonder if he will ever stop this humbug --



veeresh: ``... And I have right to a validated viewpoint.`` - correction oh wise one -- it should right to a ``warped/twisted/insidious viewpoint

yasser posts 55, 54, 53 -- very well said regarding the insidious paki basher aka the wise sage of chowk --


ylh: ``Veeresh has never hidden his contempt for anything he considers anti-Indian... and he is often wrong ... he is a patriot and an ultra-nationalist Indian who knows as a journalist how to conceal the truth... still back when Arundhati Roy was visiting Lahore... he couldn`t contain his contempt and hatred for all she stands for... no tolerance for an opposing point of view... he is the man of the establishment... a true measure of his character is the posts he puts up here... ``

you have hit the nail on the head - i actually surmised that given the kind of treatment he says he received in pakistan he would have stayed with either the high commissioner himself or raghavan sahib the deputy HC -- obviously he is going to be an ultra nationalist and his anti-pakistan views are so virulent that he cant disguise them as much as he would like

---

he is laughable and one should laugh at him but the regrettable thing is that some pakistani interactors actually see good/redeeming qualities in him -- led by the lady of the lahore airport sanitary napkin fiasco fame

vereesh #68: Vereesh, I don`t want to jump into an interesting catfight between you and Mantolives, but I am doing this for your own good. You may want to quit while you are ahead. It is hard to debate things about places which one is barely familiar with.....

``As for the population levels in Lahore, let us address the simple fact that there has not been a cencus in Pakistan for almost quarter of a century.``

Pakistan is in bad shape, but not as bad as some people think. You need to give it some credit. The last census was apparently in 1998. And it is all on the web (Pakisan is picking up on things that other hi-tech people like Indians and Americans use on a daily basis).

The website is http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/index.html

They really went nuts this time, and printed over 300 different types of census reports on Pakistan. Apparently, the census statistics for each tiny city have been published and can even be purchased. So a guy in FATA can go online and get all the info about FATA for Rs. 60. The guy in Malakand for 145, and the one for Dera Bugti are available for Rs. 150.......

It is available on CD also (and maybe even available in a pirated version). It can be obtained at:

``All Data contained in Districts, Provincial and National Reports of 1998-Census is also available on electronic device i.e. CDs which can be obtained from Population Census Organization Headquarters Islamabad, Ph. # 9214738``

There is even statistics on how many latrines are shared each family in each area...........

Both of you should get the CD and compare notes..............

Speaking of cities, the best city in South Asia, is not going to be Lahore, nor Delhi. Nor even Pindi!

Around twenty years ago, for some strange reason, I ended up in a remote city of Pakistan. Backward as hell. Interestingly it had some sort of a wierd international airport, with one flight to just one Arab country. Legend had it that the city had a chance to become a part of this oil-rich Arab ranch, but somehow or the other, the people ended up in Pakistan. I felt sorry for them.

But the location, with its virgin beaches was incredible. I said to myself, why the hell doesn`t anyone develop this place. Then three four years ago, I mentioned on Chowk that I am seriously looking into buying land there, and everyone laughed.

Well, lo and behold, Gwadar is now being mentioned in Time magazine. And going by all the Hashwanis and their grandfathers who are planning housing colonies there that will put the Toronto waterfront and San Francisco bay line to shame, it may just turn out to be another UAE.

I even thought all this was a scam and too good to be true, since nothing has actually been built there, yet, other than the port. However, in my recent surveys of Pakistan`s IT market for business, I have discovered that all these seths are paying phenomenol amounts for IT contracts in Gwadar. More than twice as much, in straight dollar terms, than I can even get for contracts in the USA. These Pakistani seths must be more loaded than anyone realizes. I had always felt that Memons are even more business-savvy than Jews. Apparently, it is true. So if I can land a big one with the resident Seth Sahib, it will be good bye Chase Manhattan and Royal Bank IT depts., and hello Gwadar.

Someone told me that Bhutto laid out the business plan for Dubai for the Shiekhs. And that 1/3rd of the money that is currently expanding UAE is coming from Pakistanis. Maybe if these guys can get there act together, Gwadar will break into the top 10 best cities in Asia. After all, just in 1996, Islamabad was no. 14.............

Na Delhi, na Lahore, na Mumbai, na Peshawar
Hum to chaley hain Gwadar, Gwadar............. (Ghalib)

[No matter what Mr. Veresh says, Lahore has bewitched the hearts of countless people all over the world. Too bad, he doesn`t see anything attractive in Lahore. It`s his loss. Lahore wil survive and thrive in spite of him and his pointless criticism. See, I had promised to myself that I wouldn`t enter this fray. Love of Lahore is such that I was forced to give my two cents for it.]

Your alias does not comply with your thought process. It`s completely misleading. Just an observation!

Yasser/53 & counting, please stop for a moment with the tirade and consider:- I am not basing my report on Lahore on a visit only to the Railway Station. There are multiple aspects to this whole thing, including reportage and footage from recent helicpter sight-seeing trips over Lahore. (BTW, did you see the chopper yourself, or were you too busy at the best art and music shows in the world? I am told that traffic stopped, children stopped playing ludo and waved at the chopper, toilets overflowed, old retired soldiers waved tricolours and memories of Ichogil/1971 were revived?)

As for the rest, ``my city`` is not restricted to Delhi alone. I am a citizen of the world.

If you want to know about ``my city`` from the point of view of ancestry, then it is Jhung, from where have emerged the largest number of Nobel Prize winners on the complete sub-Continent. Jhung was also famous in the old days for sending smart intelligent women & men to colleges where they would pull the chain on other young women and men from Lahore, a tradition which continues to this date, you shall be glad to note.

As for the population levels in Lahore, let us address the simple fact that there has not been a cencus in Pakistan for almost quarter of a century. So where are you getting your numbers from, perception, right? Well, on population perceptions, I would state that Lahore has a 10-1 male-to-female ratio, that Lahore has about 33% ``Jat Sikh Muslims``, and I would be as correct as you. And most of all, Lahore has the absolute world record in terms of men walking around holding each others hands, so chill.

As for pollution levels in Lahore, may I suggest you connect with friends in the camera business. There are digital cameras which can analyse colours and sit out numbers which can then be set off against shade cards. Get hold of one such camera and point it at the grey-brown-yellow Lahore sky.

And one more thing - just take a train ride on the Lahore-Wagah-Attari international train? Open to all travellers on the Lahore - Wagah leg for all of 50/- rupees, departures 7 through 8 in the morning. You can come back by the minibus number 12 because you will be ill after swallowing all that fine crap in the air, instead of waiting at Wagah International, pride of the Sub-Continent, Bagh-e-Sitara-ooh-Pakistan Railway.

Comparing Delhi to Lahore? No way, only similarity is that we have a ``Naveen Shahdara`` here across the river which alone is closer to your Lahore.

Dear Interactors:

Bored by the ongoing discussion, I started surfing on the internet. I came upon a web page posted by one Qaiser Waheed Ahmad Lahori. The name showed that the man was Lahore`s victim of love. His page is titled Lahore is Lahore with subtitle Lahore Lahore Ae. The footnote says ``Jinay Lahore nai wekhya, o janyae nai.`` There are some beautiful and informative links in the web page. Then I moved on.

I came to an article by Bapsi Sidhwa. She is a renowned author. It appears she has also lost her heart to Lahore. According to her, ``Lahore is an intensely romantic city,`` and also, ``Just to exist in Lahore is a sort of inspiration.``

Then I came upon another article by some anonymous writer who has titled his article ``Lahore Lahore Hai.`` He quoted from Prince Salim`s (Jahangir`s) inscription on the tombstone of Anarkali`s tomb as follows:

``Ah, if I could behold the face of my beloved again, I would give thanks unto my God till
the day of Resurrection.``

Lest one forgot another love of Jahangir, i.e., Malika Nur Jahan. She is also buried in Lahore (in Shahdra, a suburb of Lahore). There is the following verse on her tomb:

Bar mazar-e-ma gharibaa`n, naiy chiragh-o-naiy gulay
Naiy par-e-parwana sozad, naiy sadai-e-bulbalay

Trans: On the tomb of poor us, there is neither a lamp nor flower
Neither a moth burns its wings here nor does a bulbul coo

No matter what Mr. Veresh says, Lahore has bewitched the hearts of countless people all over the world. Too bad, he doesn`t see anything attractive in Lahore. It`s his loss. Lahore wil survive and thrive in spite of him and his pointless criticism. See, I had promised to myself that I wouldn`t enter this fray. Love of Lahore is such that I was forced to give my two cents for it. Wishing you all well,

Mohammad Gill

Well what I wanted to say was that: Bashing each other like that will NOT prove whether Lahore is better than Pindi or Pindi is better than Karachi
Sorry for the mistake!

[Bashing each other like that will prove whether Lahore is better than Pindi or Pindi is better than Karachi.]

I think you meant that useful bashing may reveal the fact. I agree!

People People People! every city in pakistan has its own touch! So please, refrain from bashing each other. Bashing each other like that will prove whether Lahore is better than Pindi or Pindi is better than Karachi. It is useless discussion and I think we should focus on more important things.
hamidm2 you are funny. :) I like the little joke : `` khoti rajay ni, pur kus thowadi maoo ni !`` I will remember this one. I crack these sort of jokes with my Punjabi friends. You will agree with me on one thing. Cracking jokes in Punjabi has its own pleasure.

....with you! anywhere...;)

#61 Whatever: Being a lousy retard, I understand your agony on being shipped to a nice place like Cotswolds Village. Accept my apologies for the above suggestion. Feel free to go to hell - your destination of choice :)

ylh,

.... so it all comes down to pindi bashing ...........

............. there was a time when the rajas of dhamial and dhok piraan faqiraan would take it lying down from city slickers and other shady characters, but no more !... enough is enough!

...... there was a time when you smart keisters could get by with things like :

`` ay khoti kus ni ``
``khoti rajay ni``
`` raja kus na``
``raja khoti na !``


........ but we have come a long way and now when some smart alecks ask, `` ay khoti kus nee``, we don`t miss a beat and reply, `` khoti rajay ni, pur kus thowadi maoo ni !``

............. in any case, pindi/islambad might not be much compared to lahore, but it is still home and if anyone is going to make fun of it, we will do it ourselves ! ..........

p.s. there has been a significant decrease in raja bashing since they came up with the retort , but the donkeys are not amused at this callous betrayal by their masters ........