Lahore ka Jughraphiah

People Say ``Jisne Lahore nahi dekhia uh Jamia hi nahi.`` And this proves that I am still to take birth. I was about to take birth at the time of Indian cricket team visited Lahore. But the Visa Officer closed his Nursing home before my Pasport reaching him.
May be I will be born some other time.

Mohammed,
definitely- `Jis Lahore ne dekhiya woh janmeya nai!`
Hilarious read:) The khayali and the khali students and the poster-walls have brightened my day.thank you for the chuckles.
Now I wish I could hop on the dilli-lahore bus and see it for myself- Of particular interest would be to locate Dr.Iqbal, nothing like specialised foreign treatment.But its been on and off so many times, I don`t know where the bus is now- prbably the ISBt terminus. do tell us more about lahore..a question out of genuine interest- is the ravi at lahore really dry? We have notions of it being a grand,full river, but my sources are literary and old.

i know u were being rhetorical DM - what iw as trying to say, which was for some reason censored, was that i dont think chowk or any other website is a place where i need to show proof of my employment

This board has way too many weirdos who are wearing new ids to gain some credibility.
The lesson learned from the back and forth exercise on this board is to avoid bringing others` ilogs to a discussion board. It`s simply rude. Do not try to disrupt the flow of a discussion. Please take your grudges somewhere else.

Somehow, there is something wrong with the post button. Every time I tried to write monkey-like, the submission process converted it to monkey. Sorry for any high blood pressure or heartache that may have caused. I understand that there are many oversensitive human beings on this board who like to preach on ``do not try to be personal`` but do not believe in practicing it. Despite their badtameezian and inherent hypocrisy, I would be ``kind`` to them. That means I would not interact with them. As far as demanding respect is concerned, someone must be real fool to think that. No one can demand anything out of anyone if that`s not natural to them. Interactors/human beings are either civil or uncivil. The End.

Have a nice long weekend all.

Gujju1
Googling is not how economists get stats they refer to databases, which database are you using, I am consistently shocked by your Stats.
I hope it is not the Indian govt because, though they have generally been ok in the past, lately there has been some controversy, due to NDA`s inflating of the figures.

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2004
THE TIMES OF INDIA


TODAY`S EDITORIAL
Lies and Statistics?

[ THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 09, 2004 12:00:00 AM ]

Bring credibility back to India`s numbers

Everybody knows that the late NDA government wanted to rewrite India`s history to suit its peculiar ideological obsessions. Now, there is some evidence to indicate that it might have been massaging statistics over the last few years to make contemporary reality look more presentable to its constituents. On Monday, J K Banthia, registrar-general and census boss announced that in the 10 years from 1991-2001, the Muslim population had jumped 36 per cent, a growth rate that is higher than that of the previous decade and, of course, higher than the rate at which India`s Hindu population has grown. All handouts released to media made the same point. The sangh parivar, which feeds on the paranoia of a 13 per cent Muslim population overtaking India`s 80 per cent Hindu majority someday, made a feast of this tidbit. Trouble is, the census boss wasn`t being entirely correct: he glossed over the fact that the 1991 census didn`t count people in Jammu & Kashmir, India`s only Muslim-majority state, which the present one does. Correcting for that distortion, the Muslim population growth rate through 1991-2001 falls to 29 per cent, a big decline over the 1981-91 growth figure. We do not know whether Banthia, appointed by the BJP-led regime, sparked off an entirely irrelevant debate deliberately, but his actions were certainly irresponsible.



Recently, it has become clear that in order to burnish its `India Shining` campaign with statistical gloss, the previous regime massaged inflation numbers. Research by a reputed finance company shows that key parameters of the wholesale price index (WPI), which measures hikes in producers` prices, were left unchanged for long periods — for as much as 46 months in some cases. The net effect of holding these numbers constant was to make inflation look lower than it actually was. Given that, it`s no coincidence that one of the main campaign planks of the BJP was the supposedly-low level of inflation. Short-term numerical fiddles cast long shadows: The credibility of India`s data-reporting system has been built up painstakingly, often at the cost of major embarrassment to the political system. The actions of the previous regime could severely undermine confidence in the entire system and reduce policymaking, which relies heavily on accurate numbers, to a hit-and-miss exercise. In terms of data accuracy, India has always been compared favourably to China. The NDA has done a lot to dent that trust. The UPA regime must undo the damage, bring back accountability and weed lies out of statistics.

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gujju1


latest poverty report of ADB says`More than 90% of the 690 million extremely poor in Asia’s developing countries live in India`

That is 60% of Indian population. It is a rich country!

omar#164
I did not doubt your being from Dawn. That ``I wonder`` sentence was rhetorical.

and yes of course the environment at chowk is quite different from my work environment at dawn -- as for me actually being the same person that i consider a silly question -- lets find out what zahraJ does for a living and then comment on her maturity or lack thereof vis a vis posts on chowk

interesting -- while ZahraJ goes on calling me names, the editors of this site see it fit to censor my posts -- how nice -- how much did the bear pay you guys --

what nonsense is this -- post no. 139 is not mine -- mine was a response to dost mittar and the resident chowk psycho which i believe has been censored -- that is the prerogative of this site`s editors -- what is interesting though is that they not only censored what i wrote but wrote something else completely and posted it under my own name -- how nice -- re post no 140 -- dost sahib -- yes senior or junior kee batein please chorain, we are all equals here on chowk unless of course you happen to be a bear -- my response to you has been censored but it was basically along the lines that zahraJ has been personal in the past and her psychotic leanings have been acknowlegded by many on chowk -- also, i dont come on chowk pretending to write editorials or comment opinion pieces --

FOR THE RECORD THOUGH, POST NUMBER 139 IS NOT MINE

1line -- that editorial i leave for you to write

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stuka/148 - Lahore`s relevant to its place under the sun is what I mean.

According to the International Financial Statistics published by the IMF (These are the statistics most reffered to by Macroeconomists when running regressions) India and Pakistan are on par at percapita income levels in nominal dollar terms. You can access the IFS for free during a trial period.

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What database did you use Mr Gujju. On the reliability of Indian Stats please peruse a recent edit in the times of india

Lies and Statistics?

[ THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 09, 2004 12:00:00 AM ]

Bring credibility back to India`s numbers

Everybody knows that the late NDA government wanted to rewrite India`s history to suit its peculiar ideological obsessions. Now, there is some evidence to indicate that it might have been massaging statistics over the last few years to make contemporary reality look more presentable to its constituents. On Monday, J K Banthia, registrar-general and census boss announced that in the 10 years from 1991-2001, the Muslim population had jumped 36 per cent, a growth rate that is higher than that of the previous decade and, of course, higher than the rate at which India`s Hindu population has grown. All handouts released to media made the same point. The sangh parivar, which feeds on the paranoia of a 13 per cent Muslim population overtaking India`s 80 per cent Hindu majority someday, made a feast of this tidbit. Trouble is, the census boss wasn`t being entirely correct: he glossed over the fact that the 1991 census didn`t count people in Jammu & Kashmir, India`s only Muslim-majority state, which the present one does. Correcting for that distortion, the Muslim population growth rate through 1991-2001 falls to 29 per cent, a big decline over the 1981-91 growth figure. We do not know whether Banthia, appointed by the BJP-led regime, sparked off an entirely irrelevant debate deliberately, but his actions were certainly irresponsible

Recently, it has become clear that in order to burnish its `India Shining` campaign with statistical gloss, the previous regime massaged inflation numbers. Research by a reputed finance company shows that key parameters of the wholesale price index (WPI), which measures hikes in producers` prices, were left unchanged for long periods — for as much as 46 months in some cases. The net effect of holding these numbers constant was to make inflation look lower than it actually was. Given that, it`s no coincidence that one of the main campaign planks of the BJP was the supposedly-low level of inflation. Short-term numerical fiddles cast long shadows: The credibility of India`s data-reporting system has been built up painstakingly, often at the cost of major embarrassment to the political system. The actions of the previous regime could severely undermine confidence in the entire system and reduce policymaking, which relies heavily on accurate numbers, to a hit-and-miss exercise. In terms of data accuracy, India has always been compared favourably to China. The NDA has done a lot to dent that trust. The UPA regime must undo the damage, bring back accountability and weed lies out of statistics.

Dear ZahraJ
May I know what subject/s you have your degree in?

#140: Dost Mittar: I respect you desire to continue with your hope and expectation. I am not sure if it`s in the right direction. Still, it`s your entitlement. You have to take my word for the point I have highlighted on immaturity. Please see his ool jalool that is all over the Chowk and observe how his baby ``kkkandk`` is jumping from thread to thread to catch attention. I think dawn`s monkey and his baby kkkandk are the same person. I did not mean to shock you by giving this news.

kkkandk: I think you should visit the Bronx Zoo whenever you can get an opportunity. You may like to find a cage there and play all your pranks. Hey, do not forget to take the monkey with you. Both of you will do very well in amusing the visitors with your pranks. Good luck! Interaction/Discussion boards are not for pranksters!

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On a different note, I thank the author for posting this. I don`t know Urdu, and articles like these give me the pleasure of reading and getting at least some enjoyment, the purists be damned.

YLH:

``You see his objective is to first draw an analogy with Germany... prove that some how India is like `West Germany` and Pakistan is like `East Germany`... ``

I have a hard time agreeing with the above because if that was the agenda then Veeresh would have trashed Islambad as well. What seems to be apparent is that his animus is to Lahore, not to Pakistan in general. I have never been to Lahore and I think Veeresh is getting tied up in details which are irrelevant or simply insiginificant in passing a judgement.

I do kinda see the larger picture of what he is trying to say...ergo Lahore is like Calcutta. Erstwhile Capital, still considered the cultural capital but essentially losing out to the economic and political powerhouses of Karachi and Islamabad respectively. That would be a natural progression. After all Lahore`s importance as a city came about because it was a political capital and that has been supplanted by Islamabad.

This is not to undermine the importance of either city and I have no hidden agenda of comparing Cal because of its bad rep in the west. In fact the largest slum in Asia is in Mumbai, not in Cal. Calcutta is still the cultural capital in terms of literature, traditional theatre etc and I suspect Lahore maybe the same as well.

In terms of comparing Lahore to Karnal or Kanpur, I suspect that is just Veeresh being a bit petty because that comparison does not stand at all.

``... still back when Arundhati Roy was visiting Lahore... he couldn`t contain his contempt and hatred for all she stands for..``

Yeah, that`s when she was getting her photos taken with Hamid Gul. There are millions of Indians who cannot stand what AR stands for.

We can happily give her to Pakistan if y`all like her so much.

``Lahore`s relevance and importance is on par with, say, Kanpur or Karnal or similar, not Delhi or Amritsar or Ludhiana, then I mean that I back it up with something? ``

Relevance to who? Pakistan or India?

Lahore is the third largest city of Pakistan. How can you then compare its relevance to Pakistan with the comparison of Karnal and Kanpur to India.

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Hey, Lary, Joe and Curly Moe (add alphabet soup too, please?) so much for Pind Lahore da:-

````Indo-Pak dialogue has transcended ``Lahore stage``, says Menon
New Delhi | September 07, 2004 2:12:26 PM IST

India`s High Commissioner in Islamabad SS Menon has said that the ongoing peace process with Pakistan had reached beyond the stage of the Lahore process.````

http://www.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=47336&cat=India

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Dear Dost mittar
I suggest you leave your communalism by the side and read what veeresh writes before jumping into the fray

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ZahraJ#135
When Mr. Quraishi first came to chowk, I was hoping that the presence of a senior journalist from one of the premier newspapers of the subcontinent would enhance the sytle and tenor of discussions here. My post to him reflects that hope and expectation.

Solitude = A shiraz author of the above aricle
comment no. 50

Arthur Shiraz has written an intresting essay, yet he misses the whole point. Shiraz is on a mission to secularize Pakistan - something that can never quite happen, because it is not in the will of the people. Now I myself have written several essay attacking extremism, and following the controversial hadeeth blindly - yet I never considered that Pakistan or any other Muslim country should be rid of its Islamic heritage.
Arthur I have to question your conclusions that somehow Islam is responsible for the tragedies occuring in the Muslim world today. comments like `lets westernize Pakistan` are met with equally greater suspicion as to the objectives of the West. So I have to label your comments irresponsible at the least, and unpractical.
But i think its fair that we here on chowk enjoy an oppurtunity to voice our opinions and i dont think we should attack anyones character or integrity just because he or she proposes something which we dont agree with. That is the beauty of a healthy society that Pakistan is finally starting to emerge into.....slowly but surely.

#136: Howdy. Hope you are doing well. Good to see you around after a long time.

Many of my family and relatives on my daadka side were from villages around Lahore dist. Whenever I meet a Lahori person I want to know if they belong to any of those places but it is always that they know nothing about rural Lahore and will say proudly I am from Lahore City....That is kind of strange because if you meet someone from Amritsar in USA/Canada, he is probably from a village in Amritsar dist and not from the city. Either Lahoris are afraid to admit that they or their family belong to a village or our side the villagers are more aired(hawa lagi hui:-)) than lahori villagers.

Amazing!
One lady writes about lack of certain facilities in an airport (in her i-log) and is immediately subjected to tasteless jokes and innuendoes.
And who is leading in posting these nasty comments?
A journalist from an extremely well respected rag from my country! Quaid-e-Azam must be flipping in his grave.

Dost Mittar:

Note: Please ignore him. The chap with a monkey-like behavior is not worth the attention he tries to seek on each board.

Observations, Analysis and Overall Review: He is simply jealous of women speaking their mind and identifying any issue with that system. Since he does not seem to communicate with his own family women therefore the boorish monkey does not realize the gravity of the situation. Everyone has their right to express their expectations. Please read it carefully. I am saying ``expectations`` and not ``views``. Probably, he is not exposed to women having expectations. I can see why he has been acting like a fish without water! Since he ain`t a woman therefore obviously he will not run into the issue identified by me. Well, to secure first hand information and experience on the issue, he can certainly wear the garb of Mrs. Doubtfire. I am sure everything will be on fire after that :)

By the way, I also think that it`s not 100% to do with the issue that I had identified. It`s kind of, how dare anyone else point out anything about the Pakistani System. He thinks that only he has the entitlement to point out issues by writing convoluted editorials. By the way, I reviewed a few of his editorials. There is neither any style nor worth mentioning depth in his words. None of his writing(s) exhibited any life; there was nothing in them to grab the reader`s attention. Please save your time and energy and do not read anything by him! Let him talk to himself.

Conclusion: In general, the Indian Interactors are far more civilized when it comes to exchanging their point of view as well as making a point. That does not mean that Indians are right. See there is a difference. To give an example: you may be right in your view but if you are vulgar and uncivil then you lose your audience. On the other hand, you may be completely wrong and out of line but if you are polite and civil then you are definitely worth reading and interacting. Most of the Pakistani guys (carrying the immaturity chip on their shoulder) on Chowk are nowhere near the above average standard of communication and behavior. There are only a few who are an exception.

#131 by omar_r_quraishi

“better to be a `monkey from dawn`”

…at least you are not the tampon lady… count your blessings….

2line.

Can you write and editorial…
“The Tampon disaster at the Lahore arpt… Islamic t—ist behind it…”

Dear 1line:

With due respect, I cannot oblige. It`s a top secret!!! :)

omar-r-quraishi:
I am writing this with some hesitation as it is not my place to tell anyone how to behave themselves. But I do like your generally balanced and well-written pieces in Dawn and wonder if it is the same person writing at chowk. I know that the environment at chowk is somewhat different but must we all follow the law of lowest common denominator, especially when addressing women?
Hope you wont completely ignore this appeal.

hahaha 1line -- well probably better to be a `monkey from dawn` rather than being a psycho from chowk zahraG -- as for desperation, i believe that was shown by the psycho looking for sanitary napkins at lahore airport -- and btw barrister sahib is no baby jee

Even though this is a translated article; however, `Lahore is Lahore` can never capture the essence of the Punjabi/Urdu way of saying `La hore La hore ay`.

#127 by ZahraJ

“the desperation exhibited by the monkey from dawn and his baby kkkandk, is clearly indicative of the existing frustration in the Pakistani Society.”

Wow! You do know how to extrapolate! Could you please print the formula here? Thanks.

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First of all, no one needs permission for ilog writing from any buffoon on Chowk.

Secondly, the desperation exhibited by the monkey from dawn and his baby kkkandk, is clearly indicative of the existing frustration in the Pakistani Society.

My heartfelt sympathies!

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Dost Mittar

Post # 80

Quote:

``It is customary to compare Lahore and Delhi and there are, indeed, many similarities between the two cities. The vibrant Panjabi culture of `khao-piyo-aish-karo` - eat drink and be merry - dominates both cities. Ostentatious living comes naturally to Panjabis and is as visible in the lavish parties of Lahore as of those in farm houses outside Delhi. But while the Panjabi culture dominates both cities, one cannot say the same thing about the Panjabi language. Panjabi is not the formal language of either city – it is English/Hindi in Delhi (though some road signs are in Panjabi and the language is taught in many schools) and Urdu in Lahore. ``

It would appear that these similarties are only at the surface and superfical. Khao piyo aish karo, drink and be merry is not restricted only to Delhi or Lahore, and that goes for lavish parties too.

Biggest difference (?) is that Delhi is seat of power and because of that, public of Delhi happens to be more inclined towards politics, talks more about politics, lives by the politics, thinks and discuss more politics and is more aware of politics comparatively. And of course, social issues too, to quite a degree. Only till a decade or so so, Delhi was taken as a babu city all along (most of the time, since independence).

Second, it can not be denied that there have been, and are, full fledged cultural societies, dramas, theatre, musicals and so on which have been part of Delhi or Delhi cultural scene.

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Piaara Love says STOP fighting and belittling each other. Hug each other.

kkkandk
Ref 117
Don`t be so ticklish.... itna dhuwaan .... sure ghaas huqey mein hi daali thee yaaa .... ???

I was merely refering to your sweeping categorical statements in post 102 .... No i am not Lahore key Khilaf ... infact i like the city and look forward to my visits to Lahore .whenever i get the chance (usually on basant)... however the assertion of Lahore being successor of Lucknow was out of context .... no succession issues .... Lahore remained Lahore while Lucknow lost it ....
p.s. i thought you wuld pick up the assence of my post 116, which obviosly you did not ,,, thankgod i didnt go to your school ....

on a friendlier note, i really enjoy your posts on the various boards ....

have fun with your huqqaa
morad

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Let the poor Dehli wallah live in his own little world.... his lies have been exposed... and the bubble of superiority punctured in many places...

I say we call it a day now.

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I have read many posts referring to ZahraJ. Lahore Airport and sanitary napkins !!! This seems kind of personal?? Why is it discussed so openly ??? Whats the story !!! Can anybody please clarify ??

dear scott jee -- plz dont use the minority card here plz -- it seems to have been used to death on chowk -- many people, esp women, from the `majority` community also need to have equally thick skins --

mr scott, till last reports came in chowk was not the newspaper i work for but the website i come to sometimes to `interact` with wise sages -- and as for my `smar alecky` behaviour actually it is very `befitting` when dealing with people like `V jee` here

KKKandK
Post no 102 ghaas khaa ker likhi thee kiya ??? Do not confuse culture with agriculture !!! Man you should stick to your strength (humor and wit) and do not venture into more serious stuff !!!

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Omar please don`t be worried about me being weak and infirm. I have a very thick skin as far as insults are concerned - growing up as a member of the minority kaum in Pakistan does that to you :-)
Its just that while V Jee is just another opioniated middle aged man posing as a journo, you are actually a journo working with the best newpapers around. So this smart alecky behaviour, more befitting a 17 yr old, gets to be grating and irritating.
-
Scott

Dear Freethinker: I appreciate your kind gesture, but I think you misunderstood my point. By saying that you were being unfair did not mean that you were being unfair towards me. I am saying that you should allow another perspective on how people view Lahore. Were you only looking for pro-Lahore perspectives? I am totally averse to the gangster behavior in response to an article. That`s where you should not have encouraged the mad interactors on board. You should have tried to be more receptive to a different point of view. I know it`s hard since you must have been very passionate about the subject and Pitrus B therefore you embarked on the journey of translating this piece. Still, you are far more experienced and insightful than many of us. That`s my only point. I appreciate your contributions on Chowk. No hard feeligs. Best Regards.

ZahraJ:

I apologise from the bottom of my heart for any unintentional hurt that any of my posts may have caused you. There is no moderator on Chowk, every one seems to be proud of his and her arrogant attitude. I can only hope that people might care to be mindful of what they post. Instead of insisting on not taking any thing seriously, I hope they might choose to take things seriously. When they hurt others in black and white, that should be serious. The hurt inflicted by words is more fatal than that inflicted by the sword, as the saying goes.

With regards from an old man,

Mohammad Gill

#107: Follow the instructions in post # 81. That`s it.

#81 -- shuddup yourself

scott -- oh im so sorry for you being so disgusted mr scott -- btw chowk isnt for the weak and the infirm as shri veeresh jee himself will tell you


zahraJ: ``Bored by the ongoing discussion, I started surfing on the internet``

good job -- definitely a better use of your time


mantolives: ``#93 by Mantolives on September 6, 2004 12:01pm PT


#104 by veeresh on September 6, 2004 7:57pm PT
Romair/94 - I did investigate the veracity of the so-called `98 census before I made a statement about no census being held for almost a quarter of a century. If you wish to subscribe to every bit of government PRODUCED data then that is your business. I have the right to make my own judgement calls.


what a L-I-A-R if ever there was one -- shri veeresh jee -- how many lies will you tell all of us to cover your severe lack of knowledge -- the census was held not over 25 years ago but in 1998 -- your assertion was proved wrong oh wise one and since you dont have the courage to admit it, one can only call you a bare(or bear! haha)-faced liar

ylh: PS: While we are on the topic of fairness.... please do note that Veeresh ji has still not answered your politely worded question.... he has tap danced around it. I have absolutely no patience left with this ultra-nationalist fanatic anymore who poses as a peacenik at other times... it seems that he is always without exception wrong ... and the figures he produces out of his rearend are horrendous ...
Now you are welcome to be nice to him... ask him politely several times the same question hoping in vain for the answer... but I will call him for what he really is... a liar.

amen to that ylh --

#94 by Romair on September 6, 2004 12:07pm PT
vereesh #76: ``thank you for Romair`s inputs on the Pakistan Gvernment Census, but would either of you like to review the credibility of that first? Please note, in one of my episodes, I did mention that while in Islamabad and `Pindi I did try to acquire maps and census data. And subsequently, I did try to analyse the credibility of this dat. The PHRC has some interestng things to say about the data and statistics. For example, just how many Buddhists are there in Pakistan today? What is the female-male birth ratio even in urban centres like Karachi?``

I am unable to understand the point you are trying to make.

yaar what point could he possibly make now -- the babajee is running around nanga and doesnt even have the sense to realize it --

#105 by ZahraJ on September 6, 2004 8:12pm PT
.... I am sorry if your board was used inappropriately. Well, YOU invited the boars, the boorish and the retards by being an unfair moderator. You have to take equal responsibility for creating the mess. I hope you realize that. Regards

yes you are so right, esp the retards who couldnt find (or rather expected to find) sanitary napkins at lahore airport -- and who thought a grown up guy being read stories by his mum was a geography-related thing

shri veeresh jee -- 104 -- bow out already

....... here is the score

sher-i-lahore: 9, the hindoo rascal from delhi: 5


.... and will the referee throw out miss zahra and mullah echo?...... they are disrupting the game with their blathering ....... the honor of the nation is at stake and these boobs are talking about boors and whatnot !

..... lahore might not be the greatest place on earth - even though it looks a lot better if you just moved from new jersey - but what i don`t understand is why vereesh mian is so obsessed with putting it down ........... god knows we have all been to some horrible places that he has forsaken, but what is the point in fulminating against them ?........... unless, of course, you are trying to cover up some deep rooted insecurity ........... no?...... kind of like how we muslims never miss an opportunity to make fun of the elephant-nosed gods and six-armed godesses - it makes our allah mian with his white beard and kohl rimmed eyes look absolutely divine ...............

....... ylh zindabad!.......excelsior!........ and may data sahib be with you ...........

Freethinker: With due respect your words disagree with your own preachings. When a writer is not extending the basic courtesy to another interactor or liar(per Chowk`s lie detecting expert) to express his perspective or view on Lahore since it`s different from how Pitrus viewed then you are up to something else. Forget about discussion or interaction.

I am sorry if your board was used inappropriately. Well, YOU invited the boars, the boorish and the retards by being an unfair moderator. You have to take equal responsibility for creating the mess. I hope you realize that. Regards.

Romair/94 - I did investigate the veracity of the so-called `98 census before I made a statement about no census being held for almost a quarter of a century. If you wish to subscribe to every bit of government PRODUCED data then that is your business. I have the right to make my own judgement calls.

Anil/95 - thank you for your advice. However, in this day and age, I don`t think your advice holds good. All of us are very fast to post our views on anything and everything under the sun, and I don`t see Indians and Pakistanis holding back on commenting on ANYTHING under the sun. In any case, your question raises an important counter-question - are our Pakistani friends upset because an Indian is presenting his views? Would my views have been OK if I were American?

freethinker/103 - noted. However, I can say one thing, from the representative sample here, a sense of humour seems to be sorely lacking in modern day Lahore. No wonder, both Pitrus and Manto were from outside Lahore.


kkkandk/101 - good to note that you are a Mughal buff, please ride the morning train from Lahore to Wagah via MughalPura, see the remnants and relics of the Great Mughal Empire going about their Big Jobs and breathe amazing fine dust on the route. Enjoy the scenic Mughal architecture inspired scum filled water bodies along the way.

I have been told again and again that a great canal runs through the centre of the city. I am sure the inhabitants of Moghulpura, pride of the Moghul Empire, would want to know about it too?

Dear Interactors:

It`s a shame. Why can`t we discuss an issue without degrading, ridiculing and insulting others? Why can`t we watch the language that we use? Why are we so proud of our deliberate and hurtful insinuations and direct personal attacks? Why do we want to put down others?

And why, in God`s name, don`t we confine our discussion to issues pertaining to the paper and refrain from discussing personalities and making personal attacks? Can`t we be polite in our discussion? Can we give benefit of doubt to others? Let`s not make Chowk a fish market and ``landa bazar,`` for God`s sake.

Mohammad Gill

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[(An) ill mannered boor? on Chowk???]
Naheen. Naheen. Bilkul Naheen. No way! Yeh Naheen Ho Saktaa!
Are you saying that we have a boor (with an explicit adjective) on Chowk? First of all the very thought of having a boor amongst us raises concern. Secondly, the fact that you have miscalculated the number of boor(s) and pig(s) on Chowk is disappointing. I guess I have to take it with the admin of Chowk for allowing the wild animals to roam around the fields of Chowk without proper clearance. I thought this ezine`s core focus dwelled on human ideas, thoughts, views, opinions, and emotions. :( I am deeply hurt! Ironically, the humans are getting deprived of their fair chance to be heard loud and clear; and here on Chowk, we have boors and pigs running around making a mockery of what is sacred to many humans!
This is the saddest day in the history of mankind. That`s unfair!!!

Mr. Gill:
I have not commented anything at all here. If `not commenting` is considered criticism then yes I am guilty as charged. But you won`t appreciate solicited appreciation either, would you?

I just reffered you to the i-log that you might enjoy it in the present context.

I am just a nobody. No published or unpublished `work` either, but you are free to quote or unquote me as a referrence for any purpose--even as a shining example of a know-nothing.

The articles & interact here are not hugely serious stuff for me; I do not take you seriously either. So just chill there.

P.S:I never give references. I do not consider that necassarily as a sign of great scholarship or otherwise.

Khitta-e LAHORE teray jaaN- NisaaroN ko salaam.

Veeresh:

Has it occurred to you that the modern day Pakistanis and modern day Lahoris are just as proud of their modern day Pakistan and Lahore as you are about India. And that they don`t want to be lectured by any Indian or Dilliwala. Respect their feelings and views, only then they will respect your feelings and views.

Thank you.

Anil Kapuria

Mr. echoboom:

I don`t claim to be an authority on Iqbal but I have read him all my life; not only his urdu kalam, I have read his Persian kalam and his ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought...`` also including some critical works on him by others. So I believe I know a few things about Iqbal and his kalam. I had published a translation of Pitrus` ``Saveray Jo Kal...`` on Chowk, in case you missed it. I had mentioned in Bokhari`s introduction the poem ``Aik Syedzaday Kay Naam``.

When Bokhari met Ismat Chughtaii the first time in Bombay (at Taj), both of them were nervous. Pitrus in an attempt to impress her started dishing out his `fast ones` one after the other. Ismat stopped him and said, ``I have read all this in your books, let us talk something else.`` May I suggest to you also ``Let us talk something else.``

I don`t know a thing about you and your deep and extensive knowledge which gives you the authority to pass judgement on my writings. Please give me a few references to your published work from which I could benefit and may be use them as source material in my future work. When I make a statement which needs evidence, I give appropriate references.

I don`t know many of the interactors here so I try to use my resources to place them. I try to take their criticism as politely as is possible for me. I would surely like to place you also. I am not writing this post out of disrespect to you or any body else but I do have the right to know your station because you`re so critical about my work. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Veeresh:

Has it occurred to you that the modern day Pakistanis and modern day Lahoris are just as proud of their modern day Pakistan and Lahore as you are about India. And that they don`t want to be lectured by any Indian or Dilliwala. Respect their feelings and views, only then they will respect your feelings and views.

Thank you.

Anil Kapuria

vereesh #76: ``thank you for Romair`s inputs on the Pakistan Gvernment Census, but would either of you like to review the credibility of that first? Please note, in one of my episodes, I did mention that while in Islamabad and `Pindi I did try to acquire maps and census data. And subsequently, I did try to analyse the credibility of this dat. The PHRC has some interestng things to say about the data and statistics. For example, just how many Buddhists are there in Pakistan today? What is the female-male birth ratio even in urban centres like Karachi?``

I am unable to understand the point you are trying to make. You had stated that there had been no census in Pakistan for a quarter century. I do not recall you stating that there had been a census, which in your opinion was not accurate. Now you are stating that the census of 98 was not accurate.

How exactly can you state whether it was accurate or inaccurate when you did not even know it existed? Did you get a chance to read through it? Did you analyse it? Do you have any references that point to inaccuracies in it? If that is the case, then kindly highlight. As well as explain, why you failed to acknowledge it in the first place.

You have also stated that the PHRC had some questions about it. Human Rights Commissions in every country have certain questions about census data and anything else that their govt. does. As do political parties (as do I for that matter). That is how they operate. They can then take their complaints to the court and get it validated, one way or the other. They tend to do that on issues, where they think their has been gross injustice. And not on issues where they are not quite sure whether they are right or wrong. To the best of my knowledge all provincial and federal parties of Pakistan have accepted the 98 census (barring a few complaints here and there). All the negotiations for water, taxes etc. by provincial govts. are held under census data info.

There is a statistics department in Pakistan, which provides extremely detailed data (outside of the census also), in the form of a yearly statistical year book. It is published in the March of every year. You can find anything and everything about Pakistan, in this book. It has around 150 sections alone, covering everything from male/female ratios to amount of kids, under a certain age, working in particular types of factories. The census dept. (which is part of the statistics division) publishes the % of people of various religions in Pakistan, also.

It is avaiable at http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN016767.pdf

On the web site, the census burueau maintains a day to day update on the population of Pakistan. Census taking in Pakistan is quite important, and all political parties, and provinces try to make sure there is no hanky-panky, since there seats and influence on resources (water, funding etc.) is decided by it.

Mr. Gill:
In case you miss.
Please read my ilog regarding Pitras & allam Iqbal. Also the poem there.
You might enjoy it.

Zahraj...

Please don`t leave it at that ... Fair about what? About Lahore? About Veeresh? About Malik99?

Please do elaborate? I actually have no such guilty conscience.... to the best of my knowledge I am completely fair thank God... if Veeresh starts posting blatant lies about Lahore... he needs to be called on them once and for all... and you know as well as I do that he is not `fair` ... perhaps much more unfair than I can be.

I am not sure what you are on about in this post.

-YLH

PS: While we are on the topic of fairness.... please do note that Veeresh ji has still not answered your politely worded question.... he has tap danced around it. I have absolutely no patience left with this ultra-nationalist fanatic anymore who poses as a peacenik at other times... it seems that he is always without exception wrong ... and the figures he produces out of his rearend are horrendous ...


Now you are welcome to be nice to him... ask him politely several times the same question hoping in vain for the answer... but I will call him for what he really is... a liar.

The wires have definately crossed on this board......

Manto:

Deep down inside, you very well KNOW that you are NOT fair. I will leave it at that.

[Bored by the ongoing discussion, I started surfing on the internet.]

This current article is definitely highlighting the Pitras B in many :)

seems the pakistan `expert` is also an expert on indian airline meals

check out http://www.airlinemeals.net/meals/AirSahara.html (towards the end -- with pics of course)

Zahraj

If Veeresh claims that I am the only one objecting here... and if Malik99 is also objecting... should I or should I not point that out? Does it matter what kind of scum I think Malik99 is? or what kind of scum Malik99 thinks I am? It is a simple fact isn`t it?



Veeresh,

There is no logic to your posts... basically. Despite repeated questions you haven`t been able to clarify...

As for Lahore-Dehli comparisons.... like I said.... We don`t want it ... who would compare an urban slum like Dehli populated by people like you who are WOGs in denial to be compared to a city like Lahore... Lahore is a city with the great past , a great present and an even greater future.... it is the greatest city of the subcontinent... and people like you are simply jealous... hence we are back to square one ... after all the millions of words you wrote...

I never started this comparison .... you did... with that ``People in Dehli speak more English... so Dehli in better than Lahore`` bit...


Do us a favor... Please don`t come to Lahore... or Pakistan... we can do without additional bigotry.... we already have MMA to take care of that department...

-YLH

well shri veeresh jee -- finally you realized that no good running around nanga -- u will find a reception committee on arrival at the wagah border or the spotlessly clean allama iqbal international airport -- that is if your visa isnt revoked -- will have to speak to sherpao sahib on that one :)

Veeresh is a middle aged, loud, self-opinionated person. Typical of any well-off Punjabi either side of the border. But the what are you Omar Quraishi? An ill mannered boor? I appreciate your exposing his lies, but your intemperate language makes me disgusted.
-
Scott

Mantolives:
Refer to you mail # 53 and other mails

Please note that you do not have to defend and glorify Lahore. Lahore is a great city. The city speaks for itself. Any person who has visited Lahore (especially recently) is clearly very impressed.

I also think that comparison of cities is a stupid time wasting exercise. Lahore, Delhi, Karachi, Bombay etc. are all different cities holding different attractions for different people. A settled person from Bombay would not prefer moving to or living in Delhi or lahore or Karachi and the same goes for a karachite not wanting to move to lahore.
Stating the above, I would also like to point out that in your effort to glorigy Lahore, please refrain from making sweeping and superlative statements and in the process demean and belittle other cities of Pakistan. It also takes away the forcefulness from your other very well pointed arguments.

Veeresh/various: I understand where you are coming from. Historically, many Delhiites have a tendency to glorify Lahore. Glorification (as you may or may not know) does not require 100% accuracy or perfection. For one person, eating his roadside favorite dish may mean a whole different world to him. For the other person, it may be part of his daily routine. For the 3rd one, it may mean nothing. Now, the 1st fellow can do all the glorification he can. It will never mean the same thing to the rest. Thank you for providing a counter view on how Pitras viewed Lahore.

#73: Shut Up!

veeresh:
In my opinion, it is okay to show the pimples in a travelogue as long as one shows the pretty face as well. As an old Delhvi, I wouldn`t anyone to go to Delhi and talk only about how she was pinched and groped in the local buses, swarmed by the beggars and accosted in her car by the hijras at every major intersection.
That said, you do have a point about the Pakistan railways. I travelled by train in Pakistan only once, from Rokri (near Sukkur) to Faislabad. Rokri is a major rail juntion in Pakistan but the facilities there compared unfavourably with what would be available at a similar railway station in India. And when I reached Faislabad, the station there did not look much different from the childhood memory of a 7-year old who left from the same station 57 years ago on his journey to India. The train services on the train itself in a two-tiered AC sleeper were non-existent, compared to what you get on a similar journey in India. While this was not the much-praised Karakoram, it was also not the worst train in Pakistan.
But I would be unfair if I stopped at that and did not mention that, unlike India, Railways are not the first priority in the Pakistani transportation system. It would be like comparing a Daewoo bus trip between Lahore and Islamabad (which I did not take!) to a bus journy between Dehra Doon and Delhi on the UP Roadways (which I have and rather not talk about!). Even in a most developed country like Canada, one does not get the same kind of services on trains or railway stations that one gets in India. But this does not mean that the Indian tranportation system is superior to that of Canada.

I have refrained from making any comments on comparison between Lahore and Delhi because I said all that I wanted to say on that topic in my less-celebrated travelogues. However, here is a reproduction from it:
``It is customary to compare Lahore and Delhi and there are, indeed, many similarities between the two cities. The vibrant Panjabi culture of `khao-piyo-aish-karo` - eat drink and be merry - dominates both cities. Ostentatious living comes naturally to Panjabis and is as visible in the lavish parties of Lahore as of those in farm houses outside Delhi. But while the Panjabi culture dominates both cities, one cannot say the same thing about the Panjabi language. Panjabi is not the formal language of either city – it is English/Hindi in Delhi (though some road signs are in Panjabi and the language is taught in many schools) and Urdu in Lahore. And while the street language of Delhi is Hindi/Hinglish, Panjabi still rules the roost in Lahore. Urdu spoken in Lahore has a distinct Panjabi accent, even when spoken by the descendants of Mohajirs. Indeed, those Mohajirs from the land of Ghalib and Zauq would be aghast if they heard their progeny speaking Urdu like that Sialkotia, Iqbal.

Both cities are a dream come true for the connoisseurs of food. But vegetarians would have a somewhat hard time in Lahore; one is likely to find meat even in samosas, vegetables and parathas. If more Indians are to visit Pakistan, there is a good opportunity for an enterprising Lahori to start a vegetarian restaurant, even one that serves Idlis and Masala Dosas.


While Lahoris complain of traffic, one visit to Delhi will cure that complaint. There are many more cars clogging the roads of Delhi than of Lahore though Lahore seems to have a larger proportion of bigger, imported cars. Despite dozens of flyovers and many more under construction, Delhi is a driver’s nightmare. There are several roads in Delhi, especially old Delhi where the fastest mode of transportation is often by foot. Even the traffic sense of Lahori drivers is somewhat better than those of Delhi drivers. But one notices fewer women driving cars in Lahore than in Delhi. Indeed, one sees very few women, especially unescorted women, on the streets. But quality makes up for quantity.``
[from http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003406&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1]

Yasser, with this final flourish, now that the dosas have also landed at Pearl Continental, I now hereby withdraw from this Lahore fixation I`ve been on for the past few days. It does seem as though insecurities run high and some people simply can not take a wee bit of truth.

If you are going there, on the veg parts, please ask them for ``pessaratoo``, ``andhra dosa``, ``mysore dosa`` and ``Rani-benoor dosa``. Also Kancheepuram idli, if possible.

On the meat parts, skip chicken. Fish, what is the local fish in Lahore, do you get surmai and halwa? If the chef can do Malwan cooking, ask for a fish thaali with bajra and jowaar roties.

Please also do ask the chef, if you go there, to try to fix a ``Tuticorin mutton biryani``, which needs to be served with fresh dahi.

(kkkandk and Omar, please continue.) The reason I withdraw is because I would like to debate this Lahore thing with you in private when I am there for the hockey matches, and maybe we can do a join report. In return, all I ask of you and anybody else, is to report on and fix the truth behind the rot on that Lahore-Wagah train, that`s all.

+++

````Rava masala dosas spice up Lahore`s streets!
Lahore | September 04, 2004 3:02:40 PM IST

Three Indian chefs have arrived here to spice up the Lahori palate with south Indian delicacies.

Chief Chef Balasubramaniam from Tamil Nadu, and his colleagues will cook popular dishes of Karnataka, Kerala, Andhra Pardesh and Tamil Nadu for the people of Lahore. According to the Daily Times, the chefs, who are affiliated to the Gurgaon-based ecotel hotel Uppal Orchid, are taking part in a fortnight-long food fest titled ``Solidarity with a Southern Twist``.

The festival, which starts today, is being held at the Pearl Continental Hotel till September 17.

This is a return visit from Uppal Orchid, as the two Pakistani chefs had arranged a Pakistani food festival at Uppal Orchid in March. (ANI)````

+++

malik99: ``....I am now convinced that debating with you is an utter waste of time.``

you will soon realize it is -- the more you `debate` with him, the more he will get a kick out of it

malik99 -- refer to veeresh post no. 76 -- what did i tell you .....

the idiot has referred to your and romair`s `input` which is a twisting of facts if ever there was one -- its not `input` shri veeresh jee but rather their proof that you love to make facts up and for a change have been caught red-handed --

Omar/74 - ah, the intrepid follow me here too, how sweet! Monday morning, no time for a cut and paste at the Department for Propaganda, Karachi? And so now you too jump on to the sweet Romair`s little red herring? Great, are we all to assume that it is official policy at ``The Dawn`` to take all Government statistics and data and press releases and accept them as absolute truth? Is there any back-up investigative or article at The Dawn on the data gathered by the 1998 Pak Govt census?

err shri veeresh jee , i think who heads the dept of propoganda where is evident for all to see -- as for Dawn accepting press releases and data as the ``absolute truth`` that isnt the issue here -- veeresh jee, when someone is caught with their pants down its good to try and pull them up not take them off completely and run about showing the family jewels -- the fact is that a census was conducted in 1998 and it was as exhaustive and credible/or not credible as the census of any country -- the issue isnt the credibility of the census (which is actually pretty credible and better than, as you claimed, not having one at all) you moron, the issue is your credibility and im glad to see that it has been torn to shreds (has been torn to shreds on the other board as well) and everyone can see you running around naked in the streets of lahore now --

``Is there any back-up investigative or article at The Dawn on the data gathered by the 1998 Pak Govt census?`` -- there might be -- come to our office in Karachi next time u do a choose to do a walkabout in pakistan and i will show you the article ...

malik99/75 and Romair/71 - thank you for Romair`s inputs on the Pakistan Gvernment Census, but would either of you like to review the credibility of that first? Please note, in one of my episodes, I did mention that while in Islamabad and `Pindi I did try to acquire maps and census data. And subsequently, I did try to analyse the credibility of this dat. The PHRC has some interestng things to say about the data and statistics. For example, just how many Buddhists are there in Pakistan today? What is the female-male birth ratio even in urban centres like Karachi?

Local culture of holding hands? In Lahore? And Yasser has not yet endorsed it. Where is the location of the world famous al Kukad Fry Lahore Centre for Holding Hands and is it gender biased or what?

Omar/74 - ah, the intrepid follow me here too, how sweet! Monday morning, no time for a cut and paste at the Department for Propaganda, Karachi? And so now you too jump on to the sweet Romair`s little red herring? Great, are we all to assume that it is official policy at ``The Dawn`` to take all Government statistics and data and press releases and accept them as absolute truth? Is there any back-up investigative or article at The Dawn on the data gathered by the 1998 Pak Govt census?

No, Omar, I stayed at a middle-level hotel in Islamabad, and similar in Lahore, next episode due soon, and moved around on my own. Sigh. I did not step into one official vehicle. Even more sigh. I never took advantage of any protocol at any border. Sigh Sigh SIGH.

veeresh: ``Pakistan is as much the land of my fore-fathers as it is for others who live here today.``

wonder if he will ever stop this humbug --



veeresh: ``... And I have right to a validated viewpoint.`` - correction oh wise one -- it should right to a ``warped/twisted/insidious viewpoint

yasser posts 55, 54, 53 -- very well said regarding the insidious paki basher aka the wise sage of chowk --


ylh: ``Veeresh has never hidden his contempt for anything he considers anti-Indian... and he is often wrong ... he is a patriot and an ultra-nationalist Indian who knows as a journalist how to conceal the truth... still back when Arundhati Roy was visiting Lahore... he couldn`t contain his contempt and hatred for all she stands for... no tolerance for an opposing point of view... he is the man of the establishment... a true measure of his character is the posts he puts up here... ``

you have hit the nail on the head - i actually surmised that given the kind of treatment he says he received in pakistan he would have stayed with either the high commissioner himself or raghavan sahib the deputy HC -- obviously he is going to be an ultra nationalist and his anti-pakistan views are so virulent that he cant disguise them as much as he would like

---

he is laughable and one should laugh at him and not take him too seriously -- but the regrettable thing is that some pakistani interactors actually see good/redeeming qualities in him -- led by the lady of the lahore airport sanitary napkin fiasco fame

and by the way ylh sahib, he isnt really a journalist in the sense he is a freelancer and is apparently into writing more about motorcars and `travel journeys` --

i think kkkandk`s analogy of the bear was excellent -- for whatever reason, senility, hate or blindness (probably a bit of all three) he seems to do this deliberately and probably savours the `feedback` he gets from all of us --

veeresh - you wrote ``And most of all, Lahore has the absolute world record in terms of men walking around holding each others hands, so chill. ``

For a man who is the self proclaimed ``citizen of the world``, this is a shockingly narrow minded view where you can`t even respect a local culture of men holding hands. Who the hell would give you a ``citizenship`` when you don`t even show respect to their culture?

So now, thanks to Romair`s research, it turns out that despite your repeated statements, Pakistan DID in fact had a census done in 1998. AND it is on the web. So where else are you wrong!! If you could continue insisting on something that is factually wrong, I am now convinced that debating with you is an utter waste of time.

#71 by Romair on September 5, 2004 8:10pm PT
vereesh #68: Vereesh, I don`t want to jump into an interesting catfight between you and Mantolives, but I am doing this for your own good. You may want to quit while you are ahead. It is hard to debate things about places which one is barely familiar with.....

``As for the population levels in Lahore, let us address the simple fact that there has not been a cencus in Pakistan for almost quarter of a century.``


well well shri veeresh jee -- seems me tahmed, dion, hp and kkkandk arent the only ones who dont buy your BS and see through your `travelogues` and `expertise` on pakistan -- glad you caught that r