Lahore ka Jughraphiah

...there was this stampede in mecca a few years ago and many people died. majha was also there, had performed hajj and was safe and sound. he phoned home to his loved ones and told them not to worry as he was perfectly alright...and then asked his eldest son...to chaRhao a degh at data darbar for shukrana...lahore lahore ay...;)

ZahraJ/30 - thank you for your observations.

Apart from the fact that my parents studied there, hailed from Punjab, there is also the importance a particular breed of Indians still continue to give to Lahore. That is what I wanted to see, and that is where I am coming from, when you rightly sense the disappointment which some others mistake for arrogance and comparatives.

a) Lahore was at one time, no doubt, very important in the nature of things of what was, then, undivided India and environs. As was, probably, Rawalpindi, Colombo, Aden, Djibouti, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Saigon/Cochin-China, Rangoon, Kakinada, Surat, Shimla, Moradabad, Chauri-Chaura, Gwalior, Darbhanga, Mysore, Hyderabad_Deccan, Travancore, Hong Kong, etc.etc.etc.

b) Post 2nd World War, post end of colonial powers, post partition, with the exit of the British, new centres of importance emerged at different places in different ways. In India, over 57 years of Independence later, there is a certain amount of federal structure and lateral movement of ``importance`` to many other cities.

c) I was told that it was similar in Pakistan, that colonialism had been trounced, that the people reigned supreme. Lahore`s position was always held out as an equivalent to Delhi. Till I got there myself.

In that context, Lahore is closer in my analysis to cities in India like Ludhiana, Jullundur, Mandi Gobidngarh, Sirhind, Ambala, Karnal . . . also because they are, also, on the same GT Road. Delhi is an absolutely different kettle of fish. To start with, demographics of Delhi are hardly Punjabi majority anymore.

d) Now, in the context of Ind-Pak relations, I think Lahore, wannabe Lahorians, and its noble residents need to benchmark themselves against similar habitats along the GT Road. Not Delhi. And if they don`t understand that, then I am not here to compare malls and Food Streets and airport terminals.

I am here to say that I think poor old Lahore has been glorified for far too long. IMHO, it is just a sad little city with a great past and a doubtful future.

And it seems to be full of a large number or erudite argumentative people who will not go out in the morning to see a ramshackle train to take an argument forward on factual basis.

I think even Patiala compares well with Lahore. That`s what the group Junoon said, anyways.

echoboom:

Majaz wrote another tart regarding Punjab, taking a shot at Hafeez:

Wahaan ka husn tau sub kuchh haiy maana
Magr khuud Ishq tau Jalandhri haiy

khamkhwa:

I like your Punjabi light-heartedness.

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Dude... you have some nerve talking about factual basis... facts, truth etc are terms that are alien to people like you. Refer to my previous post... I have been to the train station many times... and you simply lying out of your teeth... and what is worse is that you know it too...

Comparing an urban slum like Dehli to a cultured city like Lahore is a crime against humanity... As for Salman Ahmed of Junoon... I followed his trip to Patiala, and you have just made up that story about him... Please do quote him from a source .... oh but that you can`t do...


You have evaded everyone`s questions... you have simply thrown up your own biases which are rooted in an unfounded superiority complex and nothing else...

-YLH

Veeresh...

That was typical word twisting.... all I said was your arrogant analysis and analogy of the West Germany and East Germany was wrong ....

Now you are a simple man.... few months ago you were boasting about Dehli`s Cash Class and cars.... wonderful.

You were wrong about the trains... and now you are wrong about the airport... a trip through Allama Iqbal International will remind you, much like the motorway, that modern luxury is not exclusive possession of the west alone.... honestly Allama Iqbal International is better than any Airport I have visited in the west.... and I have been to all the major ones....

So you say Lahore`s airport is empty... this never actually having been there.. a better argument would have been ... it is brand new.... but then again Karachi`s Jinnah International Airport has been used extensively for more than a decade.... and it is still as clean and pleasant .... if not as pretty as the Allama Iqbal International...


So Nation and Ausaf are to you the best newspapers of Pakistan? Did you even bother picking up a copy of the Dawn, Daily Times, or The News? Did you bother reading through Friday times... or checking up on Sunday Times? Amazing ....


Ignoring the Karakoram trains that have been inducted, and looking at some train you saw in Lahore (which I am sure was still better than the trains we see in Indian Movies : Please refer to ``Kuch Kuch Hota hai`` ... a movie that tried to present India as a modern commercialized hip hop haven.... as an example)... to put down Lahore is a novel approach...

so you went to the train station... big deal.... a large portion of Baratis went to Karachi for my wedding last december through the same train station.... and I am afraid that while it is not top notch... it is a station equipped... why there are multiple McDonalds and KFC outlets right there on the station who have added a touch of `globalization` you crave... generally it just isn`t as bad as you want to portray it...

Please do us a favor... read Zahraj`s post... and hamidm`s post...

As for comparing Lahore and Dehli... please rest assure... there is no comparison... Lahore stands out head and shoulders above that city of yours... which is nothing by an extended ghetto and scum in liveability.... this ofcourse is the view of atleast one Indian who was amused to learn of your pompous arrogance... let me remind you what Aakar Patel (of Times of India, and Midday I believe) wrote: ``Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.``http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1



And while we are on the topic of the ``Colonial WOGs`` ... WOG = Western Oriented Gentleman... for those of us who are not aware... Dude... only 2 months ago you claimed:

Most people in Dehli speak in English, People in Lahore don`t speak English

Now that was a statement that spoke a thousand words about your `anti-colonial` `anti-Wog` orientation...


-YLH

And if someone tells the truth and bursts this dude`s bubble ... instead of refuting any of the arguments... this WOG from Dehli simply declares that person to be `erudite argumentative` and with `egoist`...

This is so typical of people who can`t move forward an argument on a factual basis.

PS: Cities with uncertain futures don`t expand on daily basis, add office space on daily basis, make new roads/underpasses/city junctures/flyover on daily basis, don`t have investment pouring on daily basis, don`t have private schools popping up daily, don`t have outsourcing firms set up daily from the US... don`t have ministers of western countries like Germany coming and talking about the suitable invesment climate... Lahore is a city like no other.... and only an arrogant and pompous Dehli wallah, frustrated by his own city`s intertia, can say something as ignorant and idiotic as this.... or call Lahore a city of 8 million plus people a `little city` for that matter.

romair,

.... i think it is not fair to compare islamabad with lahore since islamabad is not a south asian city - it is about twenty minutes from south asia ............i only wish it was twenty minutes from lahore - that way we could have had the best of both worlds ..............

............ with all this hoopla about delhi i am tempted to go and see for myself what vereesh is talking about ........... is there a time of the year when there are no indians in delhi?

OK, Yasser, since you know Lahore better, I grant it to you that it is a great city. I agree that the denizens therein are very friendly, the food is tasty, the motorway is world class, the rest-stops are state of the art, and most real down to earth people from Lahore non-burger class don`t seem to mind sharing notes on realities, but never mind, never mind. So where does a comparision with Delhi come into the picture, anyway? Have you seen Ludhiana lately, or Karnal? I think Lahore should be proud that it is being compared to these cities.

However, these facts which are not palatable are also true of Lahore:-

a) The atmospheric pollution and fine dust that gets into your lung.

b) The largely visible male pre-dominance.

c) A truly terrible ``International Train`` with corrupt customs/immigrations/cops to boot.

d) Lack of cultural avenues and opportunities except for the elite upper class.

e) And the latest - an Indian chopper just ups and flies from Amritsar to Lahore, hovers around over Lahore, and flies right back without being challenged. They must have got an idea of the geography of Lahore, too? Can`t wait to see the tapes . . .

+++

And why is it that Yasser of Lahore has always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis Delhi, since times immemorial? I don`t see anybody else objecting.

And one more thing:- from here in India, when there is a one-to-one kind of interaction, then Karachi aligns with Bombay, Pindi-I`Bad aligns with Delhi.

Lahore, IMHO, is just another largish town on the banks of another river along the GT Road. Like Kanpur.

OK, it got prominence because the Indian tricolour was first unfurled in Lahore during the winter session of the Congress there in 1929, and then again in the winter of 1971, so from that point of view, it is a city with a place in history?

This simple fact is visible to all except those from Lahore, it would seem?

Dear Interactors:

The ongoing debate reminds me of another intellectual vendetta waged between the Punjabis (and pro-Punjabis) and ahl-e-zuban in the 1950s. The flag of ahl-e-zuban was upheld by Niaz Fatehpuri (of Nigar) and his supporters while the Punjabi attack was led by Pitrus aided by Faiz, Imtiaz Ali Taj and others. Ahl-e-zuban accused Niaz Mandan-e-Lahore (Pitrus` group) of contaminating the purity of the Urdu language with admixtures from Punjabi language. Pitrus launched his attack on the relative illiteracy of the ahl-e-zuban group, in English literature, which they were passionately fond of quoting quite often in their writings. They made factual errors in translating proper English names and text from English into Urdu.

This vendetta lasted for quite a while and then fizzled out. In the process while it continued, some good pieces of Urdu literature were produced. Pitrus thoroughly enjoyed this vendetta and made the best of it. Regards

Mohammad Gill

On your following comment:

[there is also the importance a particular breed of Indians still continue to give to Lahore.]

Who are they? What are you trying to imply by a ``particular breed``? And, what kind of importance that is? Why cannot you be straightforward? Please spell it out for the thick heads!

By the way, from my childhood days, I know that Sikhs are and were very touchy about Lahore. We always used to hear the rumors and gossips about Lahore`s existance on the Khalistan map. I am not qualified to validate the truth behind that.

Correction:

[I mean it`s fine to have an attachment but it`s rididulous to dwell on it for the rest of your life.]

My revised assertion:

I mean it`s fine to have an attachement but it`s rididulous to be obsessive about it. I say that since dwelling on something for the rest of one`s life is quite common and people can be very emotional about it. I just wanted to come back on that.

Corection:

In my last post, I wrote of Niaz Fatehpuri (Of Nigar); it should be of Naqqad. I`m writing from memory which gave up on me because I had been out of active touch with my Urdu serious reading for quite some time. In doing my professional work, there was a disconnect with my reading of Urdu works.

Sorry for this lapse but then who is paying any attention? Regards,

Mohammad Gill

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veerish,
You are losing it ... its time for you to do some serious introspection.
Do not demean youself by writing such mails.
You visited the cities of Pakistan where people greeted you with warmth and hospitality. And no sooner after you left, you started bad mouthing and criticizng the place. You know very well that no city in the world is perfect and yet you focus more on the few negative attributes (as you claim).

Your articles/ travelogues are still somewhat balanced but your posts on this forum really doesnt speak well about yourself.