Lahore ka Jughraphiah

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There goes most of my travelogue, last part. Anyways, see where a few small comments about super-fine dust of Lahore got me? What you did miss out on, Gill Sahib, is the rather top-heavy ``Government babu`` presence in Lahore.

Gill Sahib, you are now about to join the list of non-patriots for your very Mantoesque description of Lahore. The real Manto, I mean.

Pitrus Bukhari was one of top class Urdu humorist and satirist in the subcontinent. He was also a head honcho at the all India radio before partition. He brought Radio Pakistan to life and along with his brother Zulf Bukhari, was a major sponsor of arts and classical music in Pakistan. He represented Pakistan at the UN. In between, he wrote little nuggets of humor and satire. He died of natural causes but today I see that he was murdered posthumously by Dr. Gill.

Gill Sahib, I apologize and I don’t mean to disparage you or your translation.

Translation of satirical work IMO is the hardest thing as the satirist plays with the words in his/her writing and often those words just lose meaning when translated into another language.

I wish you had given up on this translation when you first realized that how subtly Pitras used the word “Ravi” and you were unable to carry the pun in English.

“You will find this river near the two bridges (one for railway trains and the other is the road bridge) where it lies in the sand bed; the act of flowing has stopped since long. It is therefore difficult to say if the city is located on the right or the left bank.”

It annoys me to even discuss what you have written above. Literary pieces are not translated exactly. I am not going to continue on this as it really pains me.

You are a very good writer about science and things related to science and that is where your talent lies. Please don’t stretch yourself. It is not necessary.

I apologize again.

Mr. HP:

Thank you for your comments. The pun of “Ravi Zaeef” was only one of several situations where I nearly gave up. This situation, I thought, I had saved to some extent by drawing attention to the involved double entendre. A couple of other situations were more difficult.
And you know what. At a couple of places in the original Urdu script, there are some “sags” also. Quite a bit of the beauty of the original essay was lost in the translation but whatever remains in it has pleased a couple of other readers and probably there are some more who’ll enjoy it.

I thank you for your compliments on my skills in writing on science and other related issues but there again there are some who believe I should do something else.

Let me give you a brief explanation. I am not totally stranger in the field of Urdu literature although I admit I am not quite up to the current generation of the Urdu writers. All my life, I’ve been reading Iqbal, Ghalib, Faiz, Faraz, Manto, Pitrus, Krishan Chandar, Bedi, Ismat and many others. I’ve read from Qasmi, Shahab,Wajdah Tabassum, Ashfaq, Mumtaz Mufti, and so on. I admit my translation was not up to your mark, I’m sorry for that; the fact is that there is room for improvent in whatever you write or choose to do.

I did this piece to take a break from Science and Religion. I’m shortly returning to Religion to face a battery of malicious criticism. Many believe I don’t have business writing on religion either because they know better..

Thanks again for your comments. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

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Dear Veeresh sahab....

The one part you missed out on was that this was written more than thirty five years ago by Pitras Bukhari Sahab... who produced Pakistan`s greatest satire... the Principal of Government college.... this is simply a translation...

I don`t want to get into a debate about Lahore .... Your jealousy of the city is rather well known ... thankfuly there are enough Indians who have been to Pakistan who don`t share your views about Lahore. Unlike you they haven`t based their entire analysis of a city while passing through the Railway station which is now in one corner of Old Lahore. Please refer to Akar Patel`s article and Dost Mittar`s articles... they, unlike you, actually went around the whole city.

But you see ...your comment about Freethinker being non-patriot is rather funny given the context you see... And while we are on the topic of ``real Manto`` vs ``New Manto``.... maybe contemporary analysis requires New Mantoesque analysis as it is more current and true...

-YLH

Jaahil ko ugar jehl kaa , inaa`am diyaa jaaey
iss hadsaa-e vaqt ko--kya naam diyaa jaaey ?
maikhanoaN kee tauheen hai, rindoaN kee htak hai
kum zrf kay haathoaN meiN ugar jaam diya jaaey.

---

``hUmm aisay saada diloaN kee niazmandee sey
butoaN ney kee haiN, jahaN meiN khudaeeyaaN kya kya``

The simple-folk that we are, respectful & polite
has led many stoneheads behave like gods.

---

Guys, pay attention to the subtitle: ``Lahore is Lahore.`` No matter who thinks what, Lahore is unique in its many ways. There is no reason and no logic for discovering Lahore by any other means, as Pitrus suggested, you can discover its wealth of culture through `Lahore is L:ahore.`

In the month of July, 2004, Saima Shah put me in touch with Professor Robert Anderson, Professor of Communication, Simon Fraser University, who wanted tp gather information about Dayal Singh (of Dayal singh College and Dayal Singh Library in Lahore), a Philanthropist. Professor Anderson is writing a book about Lahore (?). I was amazed at the extent of his knowledge regarding Lahore and the people who were associated with this city of culture. To cut it short, it`s not only us, the natives of Lahore, who are enamored by it, it has bewitched people all over the world.

Wishing you all well.

Mohammad Gill

YLH/06, how can one be ``jealous`` of a city?

Yes, let us put things in their proper perspective, sure. And a comparative with Delhi is just one aspect.

All my life I have been told by a group of people that Lahore this, Lahore that. Lahore nahee vekheyaa te kamme nahee. At the same time, for quite some time now I have been trying to get to the bottom of this Lahore-fascination with our Wagah-Attari candle wavers. On the other hand, feedback about Lahore from friends of mine who have been to Lahore for one reason or the other, including in 1971 as well as subsequently, gives me a different perspective.

So I decide to take a look for myself on a variety of parameters.

a) Size:- From the air, flying in from the West towards Delhi, you overfly both Lahore and Amritsar. On a clear night you can even see ``the fence``. But what`s more, you can see both cities. Amritsar, as far as being lit up is concerned, seems to be about twice the diameter. And Amritsar is not the largest city in Indian Punjab by a long shot.

b) Atmospheric pollution:- tell me about it. Leave aside the fine dust on the Wagah-Lahore segment, which is due to mass scale de-foresting, the existing levels of air pollution in Lahore are just inhuman.

c) Cultural Scene:- there was not one theatre, music or ``cultural`` programme listed in the media during the period I was there, other than a performance at the Race Course by a few rock groups from India and Pakistan. There was no evidence of street theatre. There was no sign of free inter-mingling of young men and women at the street level. There was ample evidence of monetary collection in the name of religion and Kashmir all over the place.

d) Human rights:- the kind of terrible behaviour by lower-level government persons that I saw during my trip to and from Lahore was and still is unmatched anywhere on the sub-Continent. I have plenty of observations on this subject, but just one should suffice - an immigration staff (the black Pathan Suit ones) picks up the baby of one of the travellers on the Wagah-Lahore stretch, and shakes the baby till the child`s parents and grandparents give whatever was demanded. Does it matter if that poor person was Indian/Pakistani/Hindu/Muslim, I don`t know?

e) Public transport:- the less said the better about the state of the trains and tracks. And as for the city as well as rural buses . . .

f) Idle rich, inertia levels, conspiracy theories and ``control``:- from what I could make out, on this, Lahore takes the cake, the baby and the bathwater too. Just one example - look at the cost of newspapers and magazines? To an outsider, the who think stinks of a few people trying to keep a larger number of people down.

Yes, the spirit of the people, the warmth of the man on the street and the sheer dynamic pulse . . . all this and more.

But that`s the people, Yasser, making the best that they can out of a situation. Even in the worst of Socialist days, for example, the people you met in the East European countries were any day warmer and better to meet up with than those from the more ``advanced`` countries.

I am not jealous about Lahore. Sad, maybe. It was nothing like what I was told it would be.

And in addition, the biggest validation I made was this:- Lahore has not been able to shake of its feudal and colonial past, in fact, it has simply added to it. Which is why, I think, for a select few opinion-makers, Lahore still remains the promised land that they still dream about.

Dream on.

``Including in 1971 and subsequently``

This is the year 2004... please wake up.

Veeresh,

You just plain and simple wrong... and absolutely arrogant. Thats all I can say.

So you are basing your expertise about Lahore on ``overflight`` and the ``railway`` station... very neutral of you.... You really have no clue... and when I told a visiting Indian about your comments... she was all laughter ... replying ``These Dehli wallahs live in a fantasy world``... see then again she was not naive enough to base her entire experience on the train station... and overflight ... this is universal view.

May I suggest next time you come around Basant time, allow me to show you around... and use the extensive Daewoo, Double Decker and other Bus transport system... You will find that your view was not only misplaced but based on extreme ignorance.


-YLH

veeresh # 9 - The Lahore you have described is NOT the Lahore that I grew up in or the one I visit almost every year. Are there problems and issues in Lahore? Yes. Is there room to make Lahore better? Yes! But your analysis could not be farther from truth.

I have read Mantolives ilog (which presumably will make its way to this board as well) and I agree with his assertions. Please read that.

For a man who has claimed to have roamed four corners of this world, you have surprisingly managed to cling on to the old ``my country is better than yours`` mantra. You belong to a country where the city of Kolkata is located. That is the most horrifyingly filthy city in the ENTIRE world, as attested universally by world`s information sources. You should have been a bit humble before pointing your biased fingers towards Lahore.

Aakar Patel`s View vs Veeresh Malik`s arrogance:


Sources of Aakar Patel`s views: Residence in Lahore for a few weeks as a Journalist, Following the cricket series between Pakistan and India, an Open mind, no hang ups jealousy, not being born in 1971.

Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1




Sources of our friend Veeresh Malik`s expertise on Lahore: ``Railway Station``, ``Overflight``, and ``friends who have visited Pakistan in 1971``

Despite Veeresh Malik`s provocative misrepresentation about my city, so far I have refrained from making comments about Dehli as I have never visited Dehli myself (nor do I wish to after knowing that some of its most eloquent representatives are turning out to be quite twisters of facts), but the kind of outright inaccuracies that are being put by a Dehli Wallah (who has no regard for his own chita sar) of all people about Lahore... I am going to have to recollect some of the things I have heard from people who have visited both Lahore and Dehli....

I am sad that it has to come to this.... but when a Dehliwallah (of the city once hailed as the most polluted in Asia) starts talking about air pollution, it can cause fits of laughter. Let us not compare Lahore and Dehli in this respect... a valid argument would be that Dehli has roughly 4 to 5 million more people than Lahore has... but puh-lease... from very neutral and even Indian sources, what I have heard about Dehli and the comparison with Lahore... The air is supposed to be significantly better in Lahore...


Facts about Size: Lahore has 8 million people. It is spread from Ravi, right down to Multan Road... and spreading some 42 Km towards Kasur.... that means Lahore is extremely spread out... perhaps more so than Dehli.

Atmospheric Pollution : I have already pointed out that coming from a Dehli wallah such an assertion is laughable... Every environmentalist knows the truth about this statement... so Ha Ha...

Cultural Scene: Lahore`s cultural scene is world famous... We have a wide range of plays, and theatre which is rather extensive.... infact you will find almost all kind of theatre in Pakistan, from the fancy English Plays, to the vulgar Punjabi ones for the consumption of the populace.... There is no cultural scene like Lahore especially between November and March .... the whole city is nothing but a huge cultural festival...

Human Rights: Your tale is so incredible that there isn`t even a chance of it being true... However the tales I`ve heard about Dehli`s cops beating up and sodomizing young men are even worse.... maybe they are untrue as well...

Public Transport: Public Transport in the last few years has become at par with New Jersey atleast... there are multiple Bus companies, the best one being Daewoo which runs both in city and out city buses... again there are several kinds of buses... I am willing to bet that there is not one city in the entire subcontinent that has the efficient Bus transport system like the Daewoo inter city and Lahore City Buses, and the Double Decker Buses that were recently acquired.... Infact I am willing to bet that the Daewoo Buses that run to other cities, with in-bus service, bus hostesses, comfortable seats will be a notch higher than Veeresh Malik`s country`s national air carrier.


Male-female interaction: Muslims generally are more conservative... but step into a Shopping Mall ... any shopping Mall in Lahore these days... and you will find women extremely active in economic life... this is true of Lahore... not necessarily of other cities in Pakistan... for example even in Karachi, I don`t see women working in the malls in such large numbers.


You are a funny guy Veeresh.... you desperately want to make that comparison don`t you ... between East Germany and West Germany.... well that analogy doesn`t work for several reasons.... but also because India is not some capitalist haven free of poverty... infact quite the contrary, the general impression that most Indians leave is that Lahore is remarkably less poorer, remarkably brighter, and happier.... Next time please refrain from making comments which have no roots in reality.


Sorry to burst your little superiority bubble yet again... but some how you always seem to live in this huge bubble that needs to be burst... this bubble of ignorance, arrogance and blind eye...

-YLH

Veeresh: Some of your expectations are unrealistic, but your argument on the cultural scenario is right on the money. There is way too much focus on supporting Kashmiris and Afghanis. If a tourist visits the country then it will make them wonder. On the other hand, even the expats get concerned on the prevalent mania.

Freethinker: Out of curiosity, are the questions at the end of this article part of the feature on Lahore?

[Male-female interaction: Muslims generally are more conservative...... ]

To correct your above assertion: Muslims generally are hypocrites but they like to wear a facade of being conservative. That`s much more closer to reality. Let`s accept it.

Zahraj:

Yes, the questions at the end of the essay are part of the original Pitrus` ``Lahore ka Jughrafia.`` I was hoping someone will care to write answers to those questions. But Mr. Veeresh has diverted the flow entirely in another direction.

Why can`t we agree on ``Lahore is Lahore`` and ``Delhi Is What It Is.`` Both are unique in their own ways.

``Kaun jaiye Zauq per Delhi kee galiyan chhor kar``

Meer said:

``Delhi jo ikk shahr thaa alam mein intikhab
Rahtay thhay muntikhab hee jahan rozgaar kay
......................................................................
Uss ko falak ney loot kar weeraan kar diya
Hum rahnay waalay hain ussi ujaray diyar kay``

That is old story; Delhi is no longer `ujara diyar.` The first part may still be correct.

Be well,

Mohammad Gill

Malik99...

Finally we do agree on something...

As a fellow Lahori you will be happy to know that Lahore is getting even better...

When the unbiased history of Lahore is written, 4 names will loom large than others ... Ranjit Singh, Shahbaz Sharif, Kamran Lashari and Mian Amir Mahmood...

I am sure when you come to Lahore next you will find it completely transformed... why the underpasses on the Canal alone , 4 built in the last 6 months alone, have revolutionized travelling in Lahore... the way Old Lahore has been renovated... the food streets... even the old red light district.... amazing... Every year during Basant time, hordes of Indians descend on the city ... wonder why if they think Lahore is so mediocre ... apparently most of them consider Lahori parties to be better than what they have back home...


I think Aakar Patel`s view definitely is closer to the truth than Veeresh Malik`s which is based on his overflight, his expertise in geographical demarcation through naked eye while flying 30 000 feet in the sky, his visit to the railway station of Lahore and his rather smug assumption that Lahore hasn`t changed since 1971.... (apparently our friend Veeresh Malik didn`t even bother to pay 250 Rupees fare on the Daewoo Express to travel to Islamabad.... instead he chose the worst bus possible from the Yadgar so as to prove a point about Pakistan.... On a side note: I swear if I go to India, I will travel on bullock cart and claim that this is the inter-city coach used by the Indian masses)

-YLH

Yasser/various - I can understand your angst. Introspection does not come easily to the best of us. Believe me, I go walkabout in the seamier parts of Delhi often enough to realise the truths. Find one inter-action where I have objected to anybody`s reportage on Delhi. Delhi, or for that matter any other large city, is such a vast canvas that everything is a truth.

But Lahore, this is not a large city. Lahore is, and there is no comparision involved, just another city in the dusty plains of The Punjab. It happens to be across a political border for us Indians, but that`s about it.

So:-

a) I have never denied the truth about Delhi, whatever it is, whether by long stay residents or transitory observations. If you feel a bullock cart is representative, well so be it, why should I object to your truths?

On Lahore, my visit was much more than a cursory transit.

All I am objecting to is this mythical comparison of Lahore with Delhi. These two habitats are qualitatively and quantitatively different, not comparable. Lahore is better measured against a smaller canttonment town in India, like Ambala or Pathankot or Jullundur or Faridkot or Kapurthala. Maybe Amritsar. Yes, egos for people from Lahore seem to be much bigger, and thus easily punctured.

b) On atmospheric pollution, please take a closer look at SPM and other measured parameters lately, for Delhi, available open domain. Unfortunately, such data is not available for Lahore. However, during my stay there, I was subjected to this amazing fine dust in the International Train between Lahore and Attari, and atmospheric pollution of a sort that reminded me of the worst of Delhi circa 1996/97. And I have more than once mentioned here that Delhi`s atmospheric pollution was the worst in the world, at one time. What`s wrong in the truth? Lahore is ringed by habitation where open fires and wierd fuels seem to be the rule, and that is a fact.

c) I still have copies of the English and Urdu newspapers and magazines on the stalls during my visit. There is not a SINGLE cultural event advertised in them. That is a simple fact. A city`s cultural barometer is not simply some elitist option behind closed doors. As for ``hordes during Basant``, well, good for them. Pakistan has been a closed country for Indians for some time now, and there is simple curiosity.

d) Yes, Pakistan`s airports are reputed to be very clean. I did not use them, so I did not comment. But I did specifically mention that the one public toilet I went to on the Islamabad - Lahore Motorway was up to Changi standards. If you don`t read that, what can I do? Damned if you do, damned if you don`t. On the other hand, the area around Lahore station, on and around the tracks, is full of early morning squatters doing what comes naturally to them. So be it. What else is new?

e) If I talk about public transport by Daewoo, now owned by Tata, your sort pillory me. If I don`t talk about it, and mention Hino now controlled by Hinduja Ahok Leyland, again I am taken apart. If I go only to the Motorway, I am called elitist. If I head for Yadgar or Skyways or Niazi, then I am called names. But I have not seen a hand-painted train with tack welds for window bars in India for the last 30 years now. I suggest you nip across to Platform 1 or 2 and take a closer look at the Pride of Pakistan Railways, the ``International Train`` from Lahore/Pakistan to Attari/India before you give me gyaan on public transport.

And since I am getting it in the neck anyway, shall I tell you why the Pakistan Railway rake can not operate to Delhi anymore, not beyond Amritsar? Because it is not fit for speeds over 80 kmph, that`s why, and on the Amritsar-Delhi track, the existing ``path`` is at 120 kmph. It is another truth that this ``path`` got terribly impacted recently due to the floods!!

The newer rakes being ordered by PR, from the ICF at Kapurthala, if I am not mistaken, shall be designed for 120 kmph. Good for all of us, and don`t bother denying it, please?

f) As for human rights, sodomy, cops . . . I agree, things are bad all over. But at least in an ``International Train``, your uniformed cops and immigration guys and customs dudes should have SOME restraint? I know for a fact that nobody on this chowk, maybe nobody in the Pakistani media, has ever taken the trouble to wake up early and spend all of 50/- rupees to report on the morning train from Lahore to Wagah. Why don`t you, Yasser, it will be a bit of an early morning drag, but you will then agree, I hope, that I am not making things up.

g) Yasser, I am due into Lahore as a guest in a few weeks and this time around, I plan to do it First Class all the way. I have some of the elite from Pakistan disagreeing on my reportage, and they want me to review my opinion. Fair enough, I have no doubt that viewed from that angle, Lahore will be the best experience I have had, as an individual. But will that be the truth?

I viewed my trip as an introspection of sorts, by somebody who, but for a decision made a generation ago, would have probably been a Pakistani. Can you try to understand the pain I have when I place these observations, and my i request you (never mind some of the immature others) to re-read my reports on how I have tried to be more than fair as well as positive. But then, am I supposed to shut my eyes to the truth and be sycophantic? Is Pakistan all about Blue Areas and parties and Food Street and Gulberg and GOR only?

Freethinker: It seems to me that this feature was part of some Urdu Text Book at one point and time. Why would anyone would like to ponder on the above questions in detail in today`s day and age? If he/she is writing a thesis on Lahore that is something completely different. I just find it absurd for writers or interactors to concentrate so much on one major city of Pakistan. This is obsession regardless of the association or attachment or ties.

On the same note, I equally despise the constant tussle between Lahore and Karachi on Chowk. It`s simply repulsive. Those sentiments have also been repeated so many times on Chowk that I feel the writers need to be sent to a mental asylum to get over their infatuation or frustrations.

This whole India is better than Pakistan or vice versa, Lahore is bigger than Delhi, Muslims are cuter than non-Muslims, and Bombay rocks is completely stupid. I guess you need this kind of stupidity to satisfy the male ego on both sides of the border.

Whatever Veeresh`s intentions are or have been, some of his points are applicable to the article under discussion.

[A city`s cultural barometer is not simply some elitist option behind closed doors. ]

This is a very true assessment. This assessment was incomplete since it forgot to highlight the conservativeness of those who celebrate Basant with full fervor.

ZahraJ:

Pitrus Bukhari wrote eleven witty and humorous essays and published them in his book ``Pitrus kay Mazameen.`` Lahore ka Jughrafia is the last essay in the book. They are written in a light vein and one can enjoy them if one doesn`t take them seriously. Some readers have taken ``Lahore kaa Jugraphia`` quite seriously. What Pitrus wrote in his essay is not the literal truth; literal truth is seldom humorous.

I took a brief break from my serious writing and thought I should share Pitrus` wit with the readers here on Chowk. Now Mr. Veeresh is trying his best to prove that Lahore is not as attractive as YLH and some other interactors are suggesting. They are not commenting on Pitrus` composition but have brought in the extraneous and perpetual India versus Pakistan vendetta. People never get tired of this futile engagement.

I had tried diverting them away from this boring discussion by suggesting that Lahore does hav interesteing features in which even the foreigners are interested. Think of the historical people who were linked to Lahore. Iqbal, Faiz, Manto, Pitrus, Abdus Salam, Chandrasekhar, an Indian Nobel Laureate in Physics, wh was born in Lahore, Mohammad Rafi, the late and great Bollywood singer, lived in Lahore, Nur Jahan, and there are so many others. My attention was drawn to the fact that even the Nobel Laureate Dr. Khoranna was connected to Lahre.

Ismat Chughtai was in Lahore with Manto for a law suit, Ismat for her Lihaf and Manto for his Thanda Ghosht. Delhi will not become any grander by putting Lahore down; Delhi is a great city in its own right. I don`t remember the name of the person (perhaps Shaukat Thanvi) who quipped, ``The only bad thing about Delhi is that it is situated in a wrong country.`` Guys, enjoy the wit and take leave for a change from the boring war of words highlighting the merits and demerits of two great cities. In this discussion, both of them get soiled. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

PS:

About Lahore`s Allama Iqbal international Airport.... it is not merely clean... it is one of the prettiest in the world.... but you will not use it... because you are scared that it will burst your bubble of superiority irreparably ....

Ah well... some people just don`t learn... or unlearn anything... you are like another resident of Dehli... quite the Peter Pan...

Veeresh...

Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me despite its antique quality... it is nothing new ofcourse... we have experienced this from you for a long time ( I don`t want to revisit your IAF boasts and embarrass you... unlike you I do have some respect for your chita sar).... you come up with `facts` which are just not true. I don`t know what English or Urdu newspapers you read... but cultural events are advertised all over... it is not about introspection.... Introspection doesn`t mean you lie and I accept your lie. What is wrong is wrong...


Introspection ?

My introspection is not unknown... what is wrong with Pakistan is wrong with Pakistan... and I think I have pointed out what is wrong with Pakistan as much as anyone else on this board.... but when an arrogant Dehli wallah decides to lie about Lahore and make East Germany vs West Germany comparisons.... I am afraid I don`t agree... My question : Are Ambala, Pathankot, Jallundur, Amritsar etc 8 million strong and area as big as Lahore? The answer is No.... As for egos.... We don`t want to be compared to a city like Dehli... as the Indian friend said ...Dehli doesn`t even come close... now your ignorance is palpable even in the claims you make ... for example...


Trains

Pakistani trains don`t run beyond Amritsar is not because of the reason you have cited but because such a link has never been planned for security reasons. Pakistan has employed the new state of the art Karakarom trains only a few years ago... they go at greater speeds than you claim, between Lahore and Karachi.... going between Lahore and Karachi within 13 hours... Karakoram trains are actually at par with most trains in the west... but ofcourse you just missed the Karakoram trains right? Since we in Pakistan have been watching Indian Movies for a long time.... I am yet to see a Modern train ... or do Indian film makers only use antique models from the railway stations... But lets say you are right (though you are clearly not).... so you are saying that Lahore is bad because the trains in Lahore are hand painted... very nice. Amazing how you twist and turn your words ....But do you see the latent bigotry in your own words? Were we even talking about trains... yet you chose to talk about something you don`t know much about, as you have done in the past about the superior capability and skills of mighty IAF pilots simply because your brother is a pilot....

It is amazing .... just amazing.... you know don`t come to Pakistan.... people like you can`t change their minds.... you are incapable of it.



Elitist Parties ? and Food Street??? Hain???

So going to ``Food Street`` is elitist? Have you been to a food street ever? It is in Old Inarkali... and in Gwalmandi... the food is extremely cheap ... and the place attracts people from all walks of life ... not the elite... this very statement of yours shows me how utterly and totally wrong you are. Food street is for everyone.... and it is amazing... amazing what the joint venture of culture, food and commercialization can do...

Dude I am not asking you to go to the Parties at Gulberg... or hang out in Y Block Defence... or hang out with yuppie Model crowd or the Burger families... or listen to the elite radio stations like FM 89.09.... though do so by all means.... they will show you a High living you probably can`t imagine where you are from... By all means go down Main Boulevard... and look at how fast those mini-sky scrapers are coming up.... and all that jazz... check out the new residential projects ... check out the houses.... I am sure it will too much for a pretend capitalist like yourself.... by all means....

But what I am asking you instead to mingle with the common man.... go to Heera Mandi and FazalDin`s Paye... eat at Coccoo`s Cafe, where everyone from the common man to Jinnah sahab`s daughter has had something to eat.... go to Food street eat there.... go to Laxmi Chowk at 1 am and have Kashmiri Chai.... get Baba ji`s Kulfi at Wahdat Road ... eat out at Beadon road... eat Nihari at 4 a.m in the old city.... Listen to F M 100...

And while you are at it... instead of looking for `cultural events` in newspapers, though you find plenty in them.... look for cultural events in the city itself... go to Al Hamra Arts Council on mall for cheap public entertainment.... contact the in crowd for the Western plays... go to Al Hamra Open Air near Qaddafi for other entertainment...

And if you still can`t get a decent view of the city.... call me 300 848 5200 and I will show you around...


Buses

So Daewoo is now owned by Tata... how is that relevant to the discussion.... does that mean that the Daewoo transportation in Lahore is suddenly not there? or is Tata thinking of dismantling deliberately the Pakistani operations? Ah well... thankfuly enough new companies are coming up.. till I don`t understand your point...

-YLH

ZahraJ:

Since you do not seem interested in answering the questions at the end of the essay, I suggest that YLH write on Q.1: Why do you like Lahore? Write in detail. The answer should be humorous and witty without attacking any living persons.

Since Veeresh seems to know so much about Lahore, I suggest that he should answer Q.2: Who discovered Lahore and Why? The composition should be witty and humorous without negative reflections on Pakistanis.

I wish I had not been away from Lahore so long otherwise I would have tried writing the answers to these questions myself. Wishing all of you well,

Mohammad Gill

ylh,

.... can`t you see that verlock, in the manner of all banias, is trying to trick you into funding his next trip to lahore ?...........

.......... all i can say is that when i visited lahore recently after about ten years, i was pleasently surprised and, to be honest, a little envious .............. it is a great city by any measure except, maybe, air pollution ............ this vereesh guy might have a point there ...........

...majha and gama having performd umra, met in the haram one afternoon... after small talk...majha asked gama...yaar gamay tuannu makka changa lagya ?....replied gama... aaho jee vadda sohna shahr ay per lahore lahore ay...;)

khamkhwa:

Thank you for lightening up the discussion and capturing the essence of Pitrus` ``Lahore ka Jughrafia.`` Why can`t the people understand that ``Lahore is Lahore.`` Is it so difiicult?

Mohammad Gill

ZahraJ/21 - your response brings out a point I am trying to make - alive traditions show reality more than dead histories. And that`s what I am doing when I point out what I think about Lahore.

Yasser/various - I salute your loyalty to your city. Just understand where I am coming from - I am fed up to here with tales of Lahore by wannabe colonial feudal WOGs who came to India in 1947 and screwed up the system. We`ve finally managed to make many of them irrelevant, wth great effort. You want to hang on to your lot, that`s fine by us. Just don`t compare Lahore to Delhi, the equation changed decades ago, both cities went in different directions. Good or bad, who am I to decide?

Now, for all of us, I request you to:

a) Please visit Lahore station early in the morning when the Lahore-Wagah-Attari special rolls out. As a Pakistani citizen, you can also buy the simple 50/- ticket and ride in the train till Wagah/Pakistan, pay another few hundred rupees to mingle and observe, and then ride back to Lahore in a share-taxi/micro-bus or have your car/bike pick you up. And then tell me, without any emotion, whether this rattletrap train and all the goes with it should be permitted to project Pakistn`s image? If I were a true Lahori, i would be picketing the office of the Chairman of the Pakistan Railways, never mind the free Chinese built rakes that EVERY Pakistani reminds me about lately.

I don`t know which trains you saw in which Indian movies. Maybe you can get hold of a copy of The Burning Train, an old Vinod Khanna/Dharmendra movie. Or you can visit http://www.raildwar.com for a broader perspective. Or you can wait for the RCF-Kapurthala coaches being made for PR to roll into Pakistan. Or when you travel to India next, take the PR train from Lahore to Attari, then hop on to a taxi for the Attari-Amritsar stretch, and use the connecting LHB-Shatabdi for the Amritsar-Delhi leg after a shower at Amritsar Station. There, I gave away most of the next episode!

b) Food Street is fine, and anything triple fried in animal fat is even better. Good on you. Gastronome delight, fine. And I agree, I am just a simple person, so your Lahore high-life evades me. Glad to hear that there is no poverty in Lahore.

c) On airports, let me hazard a guess, are they squeaky clean due to lack of usage?

d) On Western Plays, I did meet up with the ``in crowd`` from Lahore when I went to see Phantom of the Opera in Islamabad. The home truths I got are mainly from them. So chill. And I stand by what I had said, whether it was The Nation, Daily Times, Dawn or Daily Khabrain, Jang or Daily Ausaf, or the Express brought out by the journos I met in the train, the cultural scene advertised and/or reported is and was zilch.

e) Point on Daewoo buses is simple - they are lovely, state of the art. Nothing else. Be happy.

+++

Pitrus was not being funny. I think he was being very sad and truthful.

I would like to think that Pakistan should try to be more like the interchange on the M2 than some colonial relic going on and and on and on about past history.

Will the inertia bound Lahoris permit that?

Jiye Pakistan, sure, but get rid of the baggage first.

And some of you should get a sense of humour too, while you are at it.

Translations are very hard to do. I think they should be encouraged. If one is to be critical of them, then one should be able to provide a better translation, of one`s own.

Asiaweek, the magazine, does quite detailed analyses of asian cities. They look at a lot of statistics, e.g.

average life expectancy
• hospital beds per 1,000 people
• per-capita state spending on education
• average class size in primary school
• university-educated people as a % of the total population
• sulfur dioxide in the air (ppm)
• nitrogen dioxide in the air (ppm)
• dust/suspended particles in the air ‹ micrograms per cubic meter (µg/m3)

etc. etc.

It is the only such scientific analyses I know of about South Asian cities. The last one they did was in 2000. That was the year when Pakistan was close to becoming a failed stated. It has improved significantly, economically and culturally, since then. I am not sure where India was in 2000 i.e. better or worse than where it is today?

Based on their analysis, the best city to live in South Asia, in 2000, was Islamabad. It came in at 24 in Asia. The second best in South Asia was Banglore, which was 27th in Asia. The others that were mentioned were:

Islamabad (24)
Banglore (27)
Colombo (29)
Delhi (31)
Bombay (33)
Karachi (38)
Dhaka (39)

These rankings were about the same in 1998 also. Though Colombo was one place ahead of Islamabad, as the best city in South Asia.

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/asiacities2000/cities.intro.html


Lahore, apparently did not get ranked. But people can get a good idea of where it would rank by figuring out where it would rank amongst Pakistani cities that are ranked. During my days, it ranked between Islamabad and Karachi, according to my opinion. Karachi is still in as bad shape as it was before. And Islamabad has gotten more crowded, and worse, than during my days. I haven`t visited Lahore in 10 years. However, everyone of my friends who visits it now says (thanks to Shahbaz Sharif and Kamran Lashari) Lahore now ranks higher than Islamabad, by quite a margin.

#29: Whether Lahore is full of mitti, dhooan, highways, overheads, river Ravi, Bareezae, Auriga, Fortress, Horse and Cattle Show....whatever ... The city is 100,000 times better than the den of taez taez bolnae walae loag who cause immediate headache (KHI) as well as the ghost town which is full of chill and fog as the season changes (ISLBD).

#28: Can you be succinct in your arguments around Lahore? I am having some issues in figuring out your exact dilemma. What is that you are exactly trying to point towards? The bad infrastructure? Poor facilities? What? First of all, if that was your 1st trip to Lahore then I have to say that for you to expect something spectacular was unreasonable to begin with. Many of us who have ties with the city do get a pleasant surprise when we compare the old infrastructure to the new one. One of my khalas just got back over the last weekend and had her share of positve experiences, visting the city after 3 years or so. She used to teach at Aitchison in 70s. Since most of her siblings and old friends still live in Lahore therefore it was a definite break for her from her academic routine in NY. In my case, none of my close friends who pursued a career are in Lahore therefore it`s a different scenario for me. I have family there and I only land there to visit them and come back. I have no desire to explore the culture. I have simply grown out of it.

I am interested in knowing the point that disappointed you. And, before I even go there, why were you even expecting anything? I am not sure if your ancestry is from Lahore or its vicinity and that`s what took you back??? Still, I am kind of clueless on your detailed analysis. I guess I have to accept that I have only skimmed through your posts therefore i could not find the point of your displeasure.

Well, there is definite hypocrisy in the culture and its traditions, but Lahore cannot be made responsible for all of it. There is frustration in the masses and no value for time. Again, you cannot blame the city for that upside down life-style. There is little or no independance and privacy when it comes to an individual`s life and decisions. Again, that is not the hallmark of Lahore only. I have come across some Karachiites where the adult guys` mothers would tell them stories every night before they go to sleep. One of the said kind was a prospective suitor that I ran into in NY City. After hearing about his mental situation and emotional dependency, I decided to let his mother be his coach and guide for the rest of his life. I hope I have covered everything.

#21: Freethinker: I am not sure if i would consider satire equivalent to wit.

Thank you for highlighting who`s who and who`s from where. Unfortunately, Indian movies, singers and actors have never been my cup of tea. I certainly have appreciation for the poets and writers(at times), but that`s it. I think Rudyard Kipling`s birth-town was also Lahore. I have never come across his family harping on that attachment. I mean it`s fine to have an attachment but it`s rididulous to dwell on it for the rest of your life. My 5 cents.

Mr. Gill, another nugget.

A veeresh type observation about Lahore:

When Majaz visited Lahore and the returned to his hometown Lucknow someone asked him;

So I heard you went to Lahore. How did you find it?

and Majaz said:

Well the place is ok; but yaar too many Panjabis!

---

...there was this stampede in mecca a few years ago and many people died. majha was also there, had performed hajj and was safe and sound. he phoned home to his loved ones and told them not to worry as he was perfectly alright...and then asked his eldest son...to chaRhao a degh at data darbar for shukrana...lahore lahore ay...;)

ZahraJ/30 - thank you for your observations.

Apart from the fact that my parents studied there, hailed from Punjab, there is also the importance a particular breed of Indians still continue to give to Lahore. That is what I wanted to see, and that is where I am coming from, when you rightly sense the disappointment which some others mistake for arrogance and comparatives.

a) Lahore was at one time, no doubt, very important in the nature of things of what was, then, undivided India and environs. As was, probably, Rawalpindi, Colombo, Aden, Djibouti, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Saigon/Cochin-China, Rangoon, Kakinada, Surat, Shimla, Moradabad, Chauri-Chaura, Gwalior, Darbhanga, Mysore, Hyderabad_Deccan, Travancore, Hong Kong, etc.etc.etc.

b) Post 2nd World War, post end of colonial powers, post partition, with the exit of the British, new centres of importance emerged at different places in different ways. In India, over 57 years of Independence later, there is a certain amount of federal structure and lateral movement of ``importance`` to many other cities.

c) I was told that it was similar in Pakistan, that colonialism had been trounced, that the people reigned supreme. Lahore`s position was always held out as an equivalent to Delhi. Till I got there myself.

In that context, Lahore is closer in my analysis to cities in India like Ludhiana, Jullundur, Mandi Gobidngarh, Sirhind, Ambala, Karnal . . . also because they are, also, on the same GT Road. Delhi is an absolutely different kettle of fish. To start with, demographics of Delhi are hardly Punjabi majority anymore.

d) Now, in the context of Ind-Pak relations, I think Lahore, wannabe Lahorians, and its noble residents need to benchmark themselves against similar habitats along the GT Road. Not Delhi. And if they don`t understand that, then I am not here to compare malls and Food Streets and airport terminals.

I am here to say that I think poor old Lahore has been glorified for far too long. IMHO, it is just a sad little city with a great past and a doubtful future.

And it seems to be full of a large number or erudite argumentative people who will not go out in the morning to see a ramshackle train to take an argument forward on factual basis.

I think even Patiala compares well with Lahore. That`s what the group Junoon said, anyways.

echoboom:

Majaz wrote another tart regarding Punjab, taking a shot at Hafeez:

Wahaan ka husn tau sub kuchh haiy maana
Magr khuud Ishq tau Jalandhri haiy

khamkhwa:

I like your Punjabi light-heartedness.

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Dude... you have some nerve talking about factual basis... facts, truth etc are terms that are alien to people like you. Refer to my previous post... I have been to the train station many times... and you simply lying out of your teeth... and what is worse is that you know it too...

Comparing an urban slum like Dehli to a cultured city like Lahore is a crime against humanity... As for Salman Ahmed of Junoon... I followed his trip to Patiala, and you have just made up that story about him... Please do quote him from a source .... oh but that you can`t do...


You have evaded everyone`s questions... you have simply thrown up your own biases which are rooted in an unfounded superiority complex and nothing else...

-YLH

Veeresh...

That was typical word twisting.... all I said was your arrogant analysis and analogy of the West Germany and East Germany was wrong ....

Now you are a simple man.... few months ago you were boasting about Dehli`s Cash Class and cars.... wonderful.

You were wrong about the trains... and now you are wrong about the airport... a trip through Allama Iqbal International will remind you, much like the motorway, that modern luxury is not exclusive possession of the west alone.... honestly Allama Iqbal International is better than any Airport I have visited in the west.... and I have been to all the major ones....

So you say Lahore`s airport is empty... this never actually having been there.. a better argument would have been ... it is brand new.... but then again Karachi`s Jinnah International Airport has been used extensively for more than a decade.... and it is still as clean and pleasant .... if not as pretty as the Allama Iqbal International...


So Nation and Ausaf are to you the best newspapers of Pakistan? Did you even bother picking up a copy of the Dawn, Daily Times, or The News? Did you bother reading through Friday times... or checking up on Sunday Times? Amazing ....


Ignoring the Karakoram trains that have been inducted, and looking at some train you saw in Lahore (which I am sure was still better than the trains we see in Indian Movies : Please refer to ``Kuch Kuch Hota hai`` ... a movie that tried to present India as a modern commercialized hip hop haven.... as an example)... to put down Lahore is a novel approach...

so you went to the train station... big deal.... a large portion of Baratis went to Karachi for my wedding last december through the same train station.... and I am afraid that while it is not top notch... it is a station equipped... why there are multiple McDonalds and KFC outlets right there on the station who have added a touch of `globalization` you crave... generally it just isn`t as bad as you want to portray it...

Please do us a favor... read Zahraj`s post... and hamidm`s post...

As for comparing Lahore and Dehli... please rest assure... there is no comparison... Lahore stands out head and shoulders above that city of yours... which is nothing by an extended ghetto and scum in liveability.... this ofcourse is the view of atleast one Indian who was amused to learn of your pompous arrogance... let me remind you what Aakar Patel (of Times of India, and Midday I believe) wrote: ``Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.``http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1



And while we are on the topic of the ``Colonial WOGs`` ... WOG = Western Oriented Gentleman... for those of us who are not aware... Dude... only 2 months ago you claimed:

Most people in Dehli speak in English, People in Lahore don`t speak English

Now that was a statement that spoke a thousand words about your `anti-colonial` `anti-Wog` orientation...


-YLH

And if someone tells the truth and bursts this dude`s bubble ... instead of refuting any of the arguments... this WOG from Dehli simply declares that person to be `erudite argumentative` and with `egoist`...

This is so typical of people who can`t move forward an argument on a factual basis.

PS: Cities with uncertain futures don`t expand on daily basis, add office space on daily basis, make new roads/underpasses/city junctures/flyover on daily basis, don`t have investment pouring on daily basis, don`t have private schools popping up daily, don`t have outsourcing firms set up daily from the US... don`t have ministers of western countries like Germany coming and talking about the suitable invesment climate... Lahore is a city like no other.... and only an arrogant and pompous Dehli wallah, frustrated by his own city`s intertia, can say something as ignorant and idiotic as this.... or call Lahore a city of 8 million plus people a `little city` for that matter.

romair,

.... i think it is not fair to compare islamabad with lahore since islamabad is not a south asian city - it is about twenty minutes from south asia ............i only wish it was twenty minutes from lahore - that way we could have had the best of both worlds ..............

............ with all this hoopla about delhi i am tempted to go and see for myself what vereesh is talking about ........... is there a time of the year when there are no indians in delhi?

OK, Yasser, since you know Lahore better, I grant it to you that it is a great city. I agree that the denizens therein are very friendly, the food is tasty, the motorway is world class, the rest-stops are state of the art, and most real down to earth people from Lahore non-burger class don`t seem to mind sharing notes on realities, but never mind, never mind. So where does a comparision with Delhi come into the picture, anyway? Have you seen Ludhiana lately, or Karnal? I think Lahore should be proud that it is being compared to these cities.

However, these facts which are not palatable are also true of Lahore:-

a) The atmospheric pollution and fine dust that gets into your lung.

b) The largely visible male pre-dominance.

c) A truly terrible ``International Train`` with corrupt customs/immigrations/cops to boot.

d) Lack of cultural avenues and opportunities except for the elite upper class.

e) And the latest - an Indian chopper just ups and flies from Amritsar to Lahore, hovers around over Lahore, and flies right back without being challenged. They must have got an idea of the geography of Lahore, too? Can`t wait to see the tapes . . .

+++

And why is it that Yasser of Lahore has always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis Delhi, since times immemorial? I don`t see anybody else objecting.

And one more thing:- from here in India, when there is a one-to-one kind of interaction, then Karachi aligns with Bombay, Pindi-I`Bad aligns with Delhi.

Lahore, IMHO, is just another largish town on the banks of another river along the GT Road. Like Kanpur.

OK, it got prominence because the Indian tricolour was first unfurled in Lahore during the winter session of the Congress there in 1929, and then again in the winter of 1971, so from that point of view, it is a city with a place in history?

This simple fact is visible to all except those from Lahore, it would seem?

Dear Interactors:

The ongoing debate reminds me of another intellectual vendetta waged between the Punjabis (and pro-Punjabis) and ahl-e-zuban in the 1950s. The flag of ahl-e-zuban was upheld by Niaz Fatehpuri (of Nigar) and his supporters while the Punjabi attack was led by Pitrus aided by Faiz, Imtiaz Ali Taj and others. Ahl-e-zuban accused Niaz Mandan-e-Lahore (Pitrus` group) of contaminating the purity of the Urdu language with admixtures from Punjabi language. Pitrus launched his attack on the relative illiteracy of the ahl-e-zuban group, in English literature, which they were passionately fond of quoting quite often in their writings. They made factual errors in translating proper English names and text from English into Urdu.

This vendetta lasted for quite a while and then fizzled out. In the process while it continued, some good pieces of Urdu literature were produced. Pitrus thoroughly enjoyed this vendetta and made the best of it. Regards

Mohammad Gill

On your following comment:

[there is also the importance a particular breed of Indians still continue to give to Lahore.]

Who are they? What are you trying to imply by a ``particular breed``? And, what kind of importance that is? Why cannot you be straightforward? Please spell it out for the thick heads!

By the way, from my childhood days, I know that Sikhs are and were very touchy about Lahore. We always used to hear the rumors and gossips about Lahore`s existance on the Khalistan map. I am not qualified to validate the truth behind that.

Correction:

[I mean it`s fine to have an attachment but it`s rididulous to dwell on it for the rest of your life.]

My revised assertion:

I mean it`s fine to have an attachement but it`s rididulous to be obsessive about it. I say that since dwelling on something for the rest of one`s life is quite common and people can be very emotional about it. I just wanted to come back on that.

Corection:

In my last post, I wrote of Niaz Fatehpuri (Of Nigar); it should be of Naqqad. I`m writing from memory which gave up on me because I had been out of active touch with my Urdu serious reading for quite some time. In doing my professional work, there was a disconnect with my reading of Urdu works.

Sorry for this lapse but then who is paying any attention? Regards,

Mohammad Gill

=== Interact Filtered ===
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veerish,
You are losing it ... its time for you to do some serious introspection.
Do not demean youself by writing such mails.
You visited the cities of Pakistan where people greeted you with warmth and hospitality. And no sooner after you left, you started bad mouthing and criticizng the place. You know very well that no city in the world is perfect and yet you focus more on the few negative attributes (as you claim).

Your articles/ travelogues are still somewhat balanced but your posts on this forum really doesnt speak well about yourself.

I have been watching this go back and forth for a while now and I am quite amazed it has reached this stage.

Folks, please stop with this demonizing and personal insults. Veeresh wrote a travellogue about a city that existed a long time before he was born and will exist a long time after he departs this planet. It does not require anyone to defend it. The city of Lahore can take care of itself.

Please understand if you want a LOT of tourists to visit your cities and towns then you cannot expect them to only sing praises of your city all the time. If some ``outsider`` did not experience the ``true character`` of city, then whose fault is it? You should all worry if a majority of the people who vist your cities have more or less the same negetive opinion about your city and then if you really care, you should do something to address their points of concern. On the other hand, if I were in your place, I would just ignore them and move on.

Now, YLH, if you want to visit India and only see the slums, the filth and travel only on Bullock carts and write a travellogue about that, trust me you are more than welcome. You are not the first person to do this, I suspect a significant percentage of tourists who come to India do it for that precise reason. In fact, if you come to Karnataka, I may be able to arrange a trip to a couple of villages in a bullock cart and arrange for you to stay in an 100 + year house with no electricity. If you want to get some of your friends, please feel free. The more the merrier.

Now I like reading travellogues. If you guys have something nice to say about Lahore, please write about it. I would love to read it...

#34
(I am here to say that I think poor old Lahore has been glorified for far too long. IMHO, it is just a sad little city with a great past and a doubtful future.)

there was a English writer who said “hell is a city” I agree with him modern cities are concrete and glass jungles, traffic congestion, pollution, overcrowding and crime.
Most people in England dream of living in small sea side towns, or in country, many as soon as their retire relocate there.

In my opinion size does matter, small is beautiful. The most oversubscribed universities are in small historic towns, e.g oxford, Cambridge, durham, york. The most unpopular are in London and Birmingham.

I was a student at york university the history, atmosphere and ambience is unforgettable even to this day, dancing in seedy nightclubs, drinking on the banks of river till sunrise, those were my years of sex drugs and rock’n’roll, with introduction of tuition fees students don’t have it easy. Nice one tony!

ylh,

....... you make us proud!.............. sher-i-lahore, muahfiz-i-mozang, quaid-i-moghulpura, baba-i-gowalmandi, zulifiqar-i-shadman, johar-i-gulberg - pick a tiltle and as a true defender of the great city of lahore you can have it ............

.......... even though naysayers like vereesh will deny it, there is something magical about a city that rouses such passion even in people like me who lived there for only five years or so ............ i do believe that every pakistani secretly wishes they were from lahore and some, like me, have often lied about being from there - it is like a badge of honor ........ the delhites, or whatever they call themselves, are simply jealous because lahore lies on the right side of the border ............

sher-i- lahore ylh zindabad !
lahore zindabad!

hamidm2/51 - it has nothing to do with which side of the border Lahore lies on. It has everything to with the simple fact that Islamabad/Pindi and Karachi are simply light years ahead of this little mofussil backwater on GT Road. Current axis of political decision makers on matters Indo-Pak is Pindi (Manmohan Singh) and Delhi (Musharaf). Current axis on other matters Indo-Pak is Mumbai-Karachi (commerce, crime, films, automobile industry, fishing, oil, banking etc.) Where is this Lahore in any picture, other than some self-imposed grandeur?

morad/50 - please appreciate the fact that I am simply reacting to absurdly grandiose comments on Lahore. I am not belittling what I have observed and experienced in Pakistan, which, by the way, is why I m being invited by the hard core Urdu media to visit again. I mean, their views do differ wildly from mine, but at least they are true to their truths and open to debate? I have been through enough cities on GT Road in India to be able to draw comparisions. I mean, Kanpur was very important at one time, so was Lahore. One is on the banks of the Ganges, other on the Ravi. Both are on GT Road, both have colleges etcetc. You see?

And I keep getting denials from people who have not even bothered to go near the Lahore-Wagah_Attari train, which is my main grouse.

ZahraJ/various - well, I keep getting this thing on size and population, when everybody knows that Lahore and the rest of Pakistan have not had a cencus for like 24 years now. Then, I am told how important Lahore is, when it simply does not seem to be on the map for anything other than feudal Pakistani stuff.

My big ticket issue about Lahore is that for far too long after 1947 have elements from Lahore tried to impose their colonial and feudal attitudes on us. To some extent, we in India have broken free from this. But it doesn;t seem to have happened in Pakistan. Fair enough, no skin off my nose. But then, when I say that as on date, Lahore`s relevance and importance is on par with, say, Kanpur or Karnal or similar, not Delhi or Amritsar or Ludhiana, then I mean that I back it up with something?

And for everybody, it has nothing to do with the hospitality I received. And am promised on my next trip to Pakistan, oncluding to Lahore, in the next few weeks.

Pakistan is as much the land of my fore-fathers as it is for others who live here today. And I have right to a validated viewpoint. And no baba-e-gulberrg-e-gwalamandi will take it away from me.

Well, I have read almost all of the postings on this board, and frankly like many interactors I am fed up with this KarachiLahore thing. I am from karachi and would never live in Lahore. But I have also visited lahore and found it to be an excellent city. Food, as nikki pointed out, is great, people are hospitable and the place has the warmth of life. Now there is no city in the world that is perfect. EVERY city has imperfections and so does Lahore. But it is the centre of entertainment, centre of our fashion Industry, we have the best and oldest colleges and universities in Lahore, plus it is a mixture of modern and conservative values.
I have been to lahore in basant and was at the Lal Haveli of Hseikh Rashid. It was fun. Flying kites, liquor, and good food. Even Ejaz Ahmed the cricketer hosts a after-midnight party at his Haveli for Basant. Lahori`s are open-hearted, loud, funny and fun-loving.

Now Mr. Gill, you are being published alot and have lost your touch. Please write less but write quality things. I have read the ``mazmoon`` in Urdu, and frankly you have done a bad job of translation. The translation should have a flow. It should not be just a piece converted from Urdu to English. Read some translations before writing.
Hamid

freethinker:
Your memory is worse than you think. Because you were right the first time. It is ``Nigaar``.

---

On Panjabis & Urdoobis: ( humour time again)

Hakim Ahmad shuj`aa reminisces of the very good-old days post-partition Lahore when the Ansaars (Panjabis) and Muhajirs (urdubis) truly practised.

This muhajir goes to th Halvaee, and extends his steel glass and asks for a pound yogurt.

The halvaee was non-plussed. In Panjab they buy yogurt in Katoraas (bowls) and milk in glasses. Opposite it is in Lucknow.

So in order to make sure that it is yogurt which is asked for the halzaee repeated & in urdu/panjabi mix said : `` tO paee saab fair issay mein paa`dooN?``

and the customer in a dry tone replied: `` haaN miaN ubb hum jubb yahaaN aa hee gaeN haiN, tO humeiN putaa hai tuum issee mein Paadogay.

CoolAl Sahab... if veeresh bases his entire criticism of Lahore on a visit to the Railway station, which is not nearly as bad as Veeresh wants portray it, its not my fault. The fact is that Veeresh has another agenda... even before he stepped into Lahore he was bashing Lahore.... it is a sick mindset .. full of jealousy and contempt.... not to mention a lame and barely concealed jingoism...

Veeresh`s real objective

You see his objective is to first draw an analogy with Germany... prove that some how India is like `West Germany` and Pakistan is like `East Germany`... it is the old wine of Bharat Mata-ists ... packaged in a new bottle... But the prosperity of Lahore is a thorn for such crazies on your side... these crazies, some of them actually manage to sound some what authentic by making a statement or two that is neutral, are the really dangerous ones....

Veeresh has never hidden his contempt for anything he considers anti-Indian... and he is often wrong ... he is a patriot and an ultra-nationalist Indian who knows as a journalist how to conceal the truth... still back when Arundhati Roy was visiting Lahore... he couldn`t contain his contempt and hatred for all she stands for... no tolerance for an opposing point of view... he is the man of the establishment... a true measure of his character is the posts he puts up here...

-YLH

CoolAl...

Thankfuly Veeresh is the only person I have come across with such fantastic views about Lahore... still we are ready to address his concerns.... but he just doesn`t make any sense.
Most of the things he is saying are not factual... he seems to be fighting some battle with ``WOGs`` who have settled in Dehli... which is funny because a few months ago he was boasting about how more people in Dehli use English as a language... than Lahore.


Most Indians who visit Lahore are closer to the opinion that Aakar Patel recently put up:


Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

Veeresh...

I haven`t been to your city... and after your lies... I have no desire to. As far as inferiority complexes .... you are the one who is obsessed with putting my city down... I didn`t bring up Dehli you did... None of the cities you`ve mentioned are 8 million strong... or as spread out as Lahore or as politically important, or Historically important ( Congress`s declaration of independence, as well as League`s Pakistan resolution in most recent years).... Your claim that Lahore has no entertainment except for the rich upper class is just BS... I am afraid the youth of the city that frequents Lahore`s old areas in the middle of the night is not all upper class elite. You have to be a real jahil to think that.... Every single point that you have put up is a lie... Anyway ... a simple visit to Alhamra arts council on the Mall road will prove you wrong.... you have grand misconceptions about the city or you just don`t want to see the truth... either way... I suggest that you stay away from Lahore... we dont need an obsessed arrogant dehliwalllah coming to Lahore anyway.... Lahore kay Qadrdanon ki kami nahi... and that is precisely what has pissed the hell out of you...


As for anyone else objecting.... excuse me .. did you not read any of the other people`s posts.... they are all critical of the lies you are putting up... does ZahraJ not count? Malik99 ... and several other Indians and Pakistanis who have called you on your lies.... but this is just another addition to the long list of lies that you`ve been putting up. As for pride... it is Dehli`s pride and joy to be even considered an equal of Lahore... let alone other cities you mention... I was personally very offended when people started to draw those comparisons... You are right about the comparison between Pindi and Dehli... Pindi a military town half the size of Lahore, with one main road extending from one end to another, and the rest of the city around it... is a town that can do justice to Dehli... which is much like Pindi, a town without any palpable character... Lahore is a class apart.... head and shoulders above Pindis and Dehlis of the world...


Even the political importance that this city continues to enjoy ... is historical and old... who ever controlled Lahore controlled the center... why is it that Nehru chose Lahore to declare ``Independence`` as an objective? or Jinnah chose Lahore for the Lahore resolution.... It is a well known fact that Akbar-e-Azam... the greatest of Mughals... loved this city the most... he spent as much time as Lahore as he could... Lahore is the greatest and most important city of Pakistan and indeed of the subcontinent.... sheer numbers of intellectuals, poets, and artists produced by this city are awesome... Every great Pakistani and Indian of the era gone by is related to Lahore some how... this city has been the most important city for centuries.... and the best is still to come... Lahore is about to become the boom town.... and from Pakistan-India peace initiative on the cards .... this city is set to gain the most... While planners in Pakistan look towards Gwadar for the future... I think Lahore will fill those shoes much earlier...


-YLH

Yasser: [As for anyone else objecting.... excuse me .. did you not read any of the other people`s posts.... they are all critical of the lies you are putting up... does ZahraJ not count? Malik99 ... and several other Indians and Pakistanis who have called you on your lies....]

I have not referred to anything written by Veeresh as ``lies``. I have repeatedly interrogated him to acquire further clarification on his points or the intent behind his displeasure. There is a difference. And you should read carefully before making flippant remarks! There is also a basic difference in interacting/discussing a point vs. being defensive on each and everything. With due respect, I do not think that many on Chowk are familiar with the basic art of communication. They are ready to punch the other person right in his/her face using some stupid flowery language. Do not get me wrong if someone is portraying an inaccurate portrayal, he needs to be taken to task. I suggest being realistic and fair.

I am amused to read your mention of Malik 99`s point(s). I thought both of you considered each other liars and what not in the recent past. What happened? Since an Indian pointed out a few things that means you decided to forgo everything. That`s humorous and also childish. Koi Baat Naheen, keep it up.

Some of the characters on this board need to be shipped to the Cotswolds Village in UK. Shall I spell out the names? Why not! Hazrat Khamkhwa and Qibla Echoboom!

...zahra aap ke saath tou main jahannum bhi janay ko tayyar hun...aap hukm karen...;)

ps: vaise jubb aap ka saath ho tou jahhanum ki kya zaroorat...?

ylh,

.... so it all comes down to pindi bashing ...........

............. there was a time when the rajas of dhamial and dhok piraan faqiraan would take it lying down from city slickers and other shady characters, but no more !... enough is enough!

...... there was a time when you smart keisters could get by with things like :

`` ay khoti kus ni ``
``khoti rajay ni``
`` raja kus na``
``raja khoti na !``


........ but we have come a long way and now when some smart alecks ask, `` ay khoti kus nee``, we don`t miss a beat and reply, `` khoti rajay ni, pur kus thowadi maoo ni !``

............. in any case, pindi/islambad might not be much compared to lahore, but it is still home and if anyone is going to make fun of it, we will do it ourselves ! ..........

p.s. there has been a significant decrease in raja bashing since they came up with the retort , but the donkeys are not amused at this callous betrayal by their masters ........

#61 Whatever: Being a lousy retard, I understand your agony on being shipped to a nice place like Cotswolds Village. Accept my apologies for the above suggestion. Feel free to go to hell - your destination of choice :)

....with you! anywhere...;)

People People People! every city in pakistan has its own touch! So please, refrain from bashing each other. Bashing each other like that will prove whether Lahore is better than Pindi or Pindi is better than Karachi. It is useless discussion and I think we should focus on more important things.
hamidm2 you are funny. :) I like the little joke : `` khoti rajay ni, pur kus thowadi maoo ni !`` I will remember this one. I crack these sort of jokes with my Punjabi friends. You will agree with me on one thing. Cracking jokes in Punjabi has its own pleasure.

[Bashing each other like that will prove whether Lahore is better than Pindi or Pindi is better than Karachi.]

I think you meant that useful bashing may reveal the fact. I agree!

Well what I wanted to say was that: Bashing each other like that will NOT prove whether Lahore is better than Pindi or Pindi is better than Karachi
Sorry for the mistake!

Dear Interactors:

Bored by the ongoing discussion, I started surfing on the internet. I came upon a web page posted by one Qaiser Waheed Ahmad Lahori. The name showed that the man was Lahore`s victim of love. His page is titled Lahore is Lahore with subtitle Lahore Lahore Ae. The footnote says ``Jinay Lahore nai wekhya, o janyae nai.`` There are some beautiful and informative links in the web page. Then I moved on.

I came to an article by Bapsi Sidhwa. She is a renowned author. It appears she has also lost her heart to Lahore. According to her, ``Lahore is an intensely romantic city,`` and also, ``Just to exist in Lahore is a sort of inspiration.``

Then I came upon another article by some anonymous writer who has titled his article ``Lahore Lahore Hai.`` He quoted from Prince Salim`s (Jahangir`s) inscription on the tombstone of Anarkali`s tomb as follows:

``Ah, if I could behold the face of my beloved again, I would give thanks unto my God till
the day of Resurrection.``

Lest one forgot another love of Jahangir, i.e., Malika Nur Jahan. She is also buried in Lahore (in Shahdra, a suburb of Lahore). There is the following verse on her tomb:

Bar mazar-e-ma gharibaa`n, naiy chiragh-o-naiy gulay
Naiy par-e-parwana sozad, naiy sadai-e-bulbalay

Trans: On the tomb of poor us, there is neither a lamp nor flower
Neither a moth burns its wings here nor does a bulbul coo

No matter what Mr. Veresh says, Lahore has bewitched the hearts of countless people all over the world. Too bad, he doesn`t see anything attractive in Lahore. It`s his loss. Lahore wil survive and thrive in spite of him and his pointless criticism. See, I had promised to myself that I wouldn`t enter this fray. Love of Lahore is such that I was forced to give my two cents for it. Wishing you all well,

Mohammad Gill

Yasser/53 & counting, please stop for a moment with the tirade and consider:- I am not basing my report on Lahore on a visit only to the Railway Station. There are multiple aspects to this whole thing, including reportage and footage from recent helicpter sight-seeing trips over Lahore. (BTW, did you see the chopper yourself, or were you too busy at the best art and music shows in the world? I am told that traffic stopped, children stopped playing ludo and waved at the chopper,