An Air Canada Flagging

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KKK #156

Unfortunately (for me), I have not got off the mark with the AI sweeties. A drink and a smile is all it has amounted to. But, I keep trying. Hope you have had better luck with Pias.

kkandk: yes, that one click joke is pretty funny. actually i heard it somewhere and just added a bit of my own to it. ;-)

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She will help you to fasten a lot more than your seat belt.

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kkandk #148 Sounds like SAS is trying to compete with Lufthansa - where the air hostess announces:

``Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for choosing Lufthansa. Now, please fasten your seat belts....UND...Achtung...I vaant to hear ONE CLICK. Thees is not PIA where everyone fastens seat belts when he feels like eet. or starts running to the toilet when the seat belt sign lights up. Ja!! Und machen sie nicht fehler!! Or else, I veel flog the intestines out of each one of you schweinhundts the way I flogged them out of thees dumbkopf Shahid Mahmood...Heil Lufthansa!!...Thank you ladies and gentlemen, and we wish you a pleasant flight.``

Shahid forgot about this flogging when he complained about getting flagged (which of course is simply the pakistani accent for ``flogged``) on air canada.

kkkandk, let me try to understand this:-

a) You have evolved into a better soul ever since your alter-ego big-small like bada imambara/chota imambara was put aside.

b) You are in a position to influence salaries and posts for assistant editors.

c) You have an issue wherein flagging in airlines whose flags permit flogging are fine. But flagging in airlines whose flags do not encourage flogging is not kosher. At the same time there are certain flags where flogging is kind of tolerated as a sexual innuendo thing so your objections are flagging. is this what is clled flagelation (sp?)?

c2) Do you also have a view on self-flagelation (sp?)?

+++

Yesterday I was on a fully loaded CRJ flight where the airline computers were down, the over-booking scenario required police intervention, the bar had run out of all forms of alcohol, the security guys were being extra tough, the aircraft had a fuel overflow, the air-conditioning failed, outside was raining and inside was humid and hot, one passenger got violent asthma followed by nausea followed by you know what, and finally the pilot sulked. When we rolled towards the runway in an airplane with a mixed smell of vomit and aviation kerosene, we ended up having a hold for 45 minutes because of an inward emergency. After take-off, the ATC restricted the aircraft to a ceiling of 13000 feet in the midst of a strong monsoon sky. When we reached destination we were put in holding pattern for 30 more minutes and finally landed when diversion was announced.

I want to know from all of you what my rights are and who was that European lady in 7C?

Mistress Pain , 150 / hour. Cheaper than SAS fight tickets.

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kkandk #146 I am glad you redirected Mr. Hyd to the proper boardroom. Actually, he is OK as Dr. Jekyll, but when he transforms to Mr. Hyd he gets all irritable and nasty and starts picking on his neighbors.

Now back to the flogging. As I understand, SAS airlines stands for Sex and Sandwiches airlines. Flogging is also available (but to first class passengers only, sorry), with air hostess wearing leather shorts and high peaked caps (genuine Nazi officer uniforms, taken from the feuhrerbunker), with this service being provided after sandwiches. After the flogging, the air hostess gently tucks you into bed (with real pillows and seats going 180 degtee flat) and if you are nice jumps in as well.

Poor Shahid Mahmood missed all that of course, when he got bumped from the flight. No wonder he is so upset.

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#138 by tahmed32

[join the club of mad indians on chowk. what you people need is group therapy i think.]

You`re fooling no one but yourself when you try to evade the question I asked. I take it as you have no answer. And your ranting doesn`t irk me one bit, it only shows your frustration.

kkandk #143 you seem well travelled along the world famous GT Road - that crowning achievement of Sher Shah the Soor - with side trips to mumbai and lucknow. Yes indeed, to compare Wana with Gujerat is to compare the chapli kebabs of kissa khani with the masala dosas of madras (if indeed they have masala dosas in madras).

Of course no one will gets bumped off a seat in a restaurant in kissa khani either (this last is my contribution to your efforts to bring this discussion back to the subject of this article).

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tahmed32/141 - justice in Gujarat or elsewhere in India, well, do remember that the politicians are only one of the many pillars that constitute the various powerful self-correctives within India. So, in due course of time, most everything reverts to a sort of sensible middle path. Some call that chaotic, many refer to it as laws of nature. I prefer to believe that large percentages of the ``silent majority`` tend to remember the focus of their direction, and provide huge inertia levels that eventually work for society`s good.

Which means, the bad guys, in India, eventually get their just desserts.

Because it is not just a simplistic ``religion + governance/military`` kind of equation.

veeresh: rest assured i dont worry about indians except when i come to chowk and read the lunatic ravings from the likes of Jay (now alas no longer with us it seems) and his ilk (to use Jay - may Thakeray rest is soul - favorite term for bad people like me who kept pricking his delusions).

anway - you got this one right. Wana is more comparable to the Indian action in kashmir (where I have always in fact opposed the pakistan army policy of proxy war that put those thugs in kashmir the same way i oppose the thugs in wana that the pakistan army is doing its national duty by fighting). It was your countrymen (the aforementioned lunatic fringe) who started comparing Wana to Gujerat.

And btw, dont talk to me about justice in Gujerat - Modi was re-elected PM when he should have been behind bars, and I have read news items about witnesses being intimidated and only a small handful of individuals being actually brought to court.

tahmed32/138 - well, Gujarat issues of mobs attacking families are being handled by the Courts and the rest of the system.

But your ````military action in wana (against bands of armed men from chechnya, central asian states, middle east - with the al qaeda leadership hiding in their midst) ````, hey, this sounds very much like the freedom fighters who were being politically and morally supported by the same military in Kashmir, right?

From Ayaz Amir`s column:- ````Al Qaeda`s war against the Pakistani establishment is not the main war Pakistan is engaged in. This is a side show, an example of Frankenstein turning against his creator, of the forces of jihad rebounding against their erstwhile masters.

Pakistan`s military intelligence agencies nurtured the forces of jihad for over 20 years. Their twin aims: turning Afghanistan into a client state and bleeding India in Kashmir.

When the world turned on its axis after the September 11 attacks on the United States, these ambitions perforce had to be abandoned, U-turns considered as betrayal by the forces of jihad. If they now strike at the hands that once fed them, it is only to be expected. ````

Don`t worry about mad Indians. Look inside your own home, and fix things fast.

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harish: so you too think that the military action in wana (against bands of armed men from chechnya, central asian states, middle east - with the al qaeda leadership hiding in their midst) compares with the mob attacks on families in Gujerat? join the club of mad indians on chowk. what you people need is group therapy i think.

#131 by tahmed32

[In Wana, armed men (many of them from other countries who are illegally in Pakistan) were confronted, given a chance to surrender, and then attacked.]

Oh really?! The razing of the Wana Bazaar, in line with the principle of collective responsibility as per the outdated Frontier Crimes Regulation (FCR) doesn`t target innocent Pakis, does it?

All PiA / Air India hostesses are multi-lingual. Imagine one of them with the slightly put on accents getting down and dirty in the lingua franca!

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#132 arjun_m
Detroit. We were flagged through (this was before TSA & before they started checking laptops and made you take your jackets & shoes off but they scanned you with a wand), but old, white folks were picked out for some reason. They were made to open all their handheld luggage, had to empty their pockets & purses even though the walkthrough scanner didn`t go off. First class line was simply waved to move on.
A less offensive way profiling is done is by increasing the sensitivity of the scanner when a chosen target appears. The victim is not offended since he/she wasn`t picked at random in an obvious way.
Incidentally, here is something from Boston Globe.
The Trusted Traveler program is based on the dangerous myth that terrorists match a particular profile and that we can somehow pick terrorists out of a crowd if we only can identify everyone. That`s simply not true. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were unknown and not on any watch list. Timothy McVeigh was an upstanding US citizen before he blew up the Oklahoma City Federal Building. Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel are normal, nondescript people. Intelligence reports indicate that Al Qaeda is recruiting non-Arab terrorists for US operations.

Airport security is best served by intelligent guards watching for suspicious behavior, not dumb guards blindly following the results of a Trusted Traveler program.

Moreover, there`s no need for the program. Frequent fliers and first-class travelers already have access to special lanes that bypass long lines at security checkpoints, and the computers never seem to flag them for special screening. And even the long lines aren`t very long. I`ve flown out of Logan repeatedly, and I`ve never had to wait more than 10 minutes at security. The people who could use the card don`t need one, and infrequent travelers are unlikely to take the trouble or pay the fee to get one.

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harimau #130 You are wrong (what else is new!) on two counts here - first, comparing Gujerat to Wana demonstrates your mentality - in Gujerat, innocent muslim families were brutalized and killed. In Wana, armed men (many of them from other countries who are illegally in Pakistan) were confronted, given a chance to surrender, and then attacked.

In comparing these two completely different events, you demonstrate that Jay Thakeray is not the only hindutva on chowk who has gone completely mad.

and the other place you are wrong is in saying that I never mentioned Wana - in fact I have discussed it earlier on chowk.

Yo Mullah32,

I notice that while you have been vociferous about the responsibility of the Modi government in Gujarat and the Vajpayee government in New Delhi for the protection of the citizens of Gujarat, you have not said so much as boo on the board ``Army Action in Wana and Our Responsibility``.

harimau: I repeat what I said in #118 - ``To find the answer, I think we need go no further than Master Harimau, the nobel prize winning Hindutva Apologist on chowk: when someone mentions the murder of innocent muslims in Gujerat, he comes running to remind the world that there is an explanation for the killing of muslim families, viz. this was revenge for Godhra. The roots of the problem therefore rest in a mindset that has no respect for human life - in other words, the mindset of the terrorist. Hindu or muslim it does not matter. The mindset is the same. ``

I have nothing more to say to you.

#117 kkkandk
Profiling is an absurd idea. Besides, for a while, they were letting first & business class passangers thru with the most cursory of searches in domestic US routes. The explanation was that the hijackers had economy class tickets! I see that they now have tightened up the searching of the biz class passangers somewhat but in many airports they still go through a separate line, which is odd since airport security costs are borne by tax payers. At any rate, there has been a certain lack of imagination on the part of the security people, with them only reacting to events. I mean if someone intended to hijack, what`s a few hundred dollars more for a first-class ticket? I also have seen as recently as 3 months ago, some passangers carrying coke bottles into the plane. I guess they won`t be banned until someone hijacks a plane with the help of a broken bottle.

Ref mullah32 #118

[You raise an interesting point concerning the roots of the problem that cause hijackers to fly planeloads of people into buildings full of people. To find the answer, I think we need go no further than Master Harimau, the nobel prize winning Hindutva Apologist on chowk...]

Yes, it is the Hindus who caused the planes to fly into the World Trade Center! We already know that the Mossad also had a hand in this! 9-11 was a Hindu-Yehuda conspiracy!

We also know that Harimau is a brahmin. That conclusively proves that Jinnah was far sighted in creating Pakistan!

You got anything else to say?

Ref mullah32 #118

Looks like you have been the legal adviser to this guy!

Godhra accused wants bail for sex
HARIT MEHTA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, AUGUST 24, 2004 09:58:46 AM ]

AHMEDABAD: Lawyers come up with all kinds of arguments while petitioning courts for their clients` bail. But the application filed by Firozkhan Zafarkhan, an accused in the Godhra train carnage, counts high in originality — he wants to be released on bail so he can go home and fulfil his carnal desires.

The plea may sound strange but there is nothing immoral here — all the accused wants to do is to go home to his wife and enjoy conjugal bliss. In his two-page application dated August 18, Firozkhan has sought a 30-day bail.

Sources say Firozkhan had earlier made an oral representation before the court. ``However, on the instructions of the honourable court, I am giving a written application regarding the same,`` says the application.

The application is slated for hearing shortly. According to jail sources, the plea was to be heard on Monday but did not come up for hearing. The Godhra case is one of several Gujarat riot cases where the trial has been stayed by the Supreme Court.

Firozkhan, who has been in jail for the past 30 months along with 95 other accused in the Godhra train carnage case, claims both he and his wife are undergoing mental trauma because their physical needs have not been satisfied for a long period. ``Our religion prohibits sex outside marriage,`` he states in his plea.

He adds in his plea that establishing physical relationships with people other than one`s spouse is also forbidden in Indian culture.

Hailing Indian tradition, where ``women remain loyal to their parents as well as husbands``, Firozkhan, in his application, expresses gratitude towards women and calls them `Devi`.

Firozkhan was allegedly in the mob at Singal Falia which burnt the S-6 compartment of the Sabarmati Express on February 27, 2002 and has since been booked under Pota.

``Please grant me temporary bail for a period of 30 days or whatever you think right on humanitarian grounds,`` he says.

The accused has also requested the court to ensure that all expenses regarding this issue be taken care of. ``My financial condition is very bad and hence I have not engaged any personal lawyer,`` he states in the plea.

``I am sorry if inadvertently I have violated any law,`` he writes, stating that although ``law is above all emotions``, he would request the court to consider his case only on ``humanitarian grounds``.

Shahid,

Get used to the idea that you will be flagged on ALL flights in the future.

Here is something for you to ponder over when you are in a similar situation next time.

One day, President George W Bush was walking in a New York park on a holiday with his pet dog.

The pet dog suddenly became rabid and started attacking Bush himself.

A man who was sitting close-by on a park bench pounced on the rabid dog, fought with it and killed it to save the life of George W Bush.

Bush was appreciative of the young man and said, ``Thank you very much. You will become famous. All TV channels will flash the news `Young New Yorker kills dog to save Bush```. But the lad said, ``No. Mr. President, I aint a New Yorker``.

``So what?``, said Bush, ``They may say, ``Brave American risks life to kill dog and save Bush```. Again the man said, ``No. Mr. President, I aint an American``, for which Bush asked, ``Then what are you?``

The man said, ``I am a Pakistani``.

In an hour all TV channels flashed the news: ``Islamic Terrorist kills Bush`s pet dog, Hand of Osama Bin Laden suspected``.

;)

Ref veeresh #123

[And since we are discussing anecdotes, mine has to do with seeing the car in front of me with two dear old ladies being pulled over for intensive checking, while ours with two bearded ME gents was waved through.]

You didn`t fall for that, did you, Veeresh sahib?

It is common practice at the gates of the airport to pull off people at random to do a final search before boarding. They always pull off blacks, Hispanics, any foreigners, etc. Just to be sure that they are not accused of profiling people by ethnic origin and have a multi-million dollar lawsuit on their hands, they ALWAYS pull off one elderly white male about 75 years of age and one elderly white female about 83 years of age. It is never a middle-aged or younger white business traveller who is searched gate-side.

Hi Shahid/116, so now you are a gambling man too, not averse to the little flutter now and then? That`s good, so i do hope you take an unbiased view of matters pertaining to aviation security and figure out the odds there, too?

It is, eventually and always, a question of focus. If you are focused on getting uptight, that also. If you are focused on travel, that also.

And since we are discussing anecdotes, mine has to do with seeing the car in front of me with two dear old ladies being pulled over for intensive checking, while ours with two bearded ME gents was waved through.

shahid: I think we have stated our respective views and it is better we agree to disagree rather than pretend we have the same view. You seem to think that in bumping you off the flight and not your wife the canadian airline staff had subjected you to unequal treatment. I think that you are fussing for nothing and that this is a small price to pay for airline security. After all, it wasnt 19 little old white ladies who hijacked the plane on 9/11, but swarthy totally non-equiline type fellows like you and me. And as HP says, they pick on redneck plumbers with bottoms showing above their pant trousers too. (And little old white ladies too btw, not to mention the senators, nicely suited business executives, mothers with children, and virtually everyone else who travels). This is the price we all have to pay as society struggles to prevent further hijackings (or shoe-bombings).

Now perhaps you can draw a cartoon of the incident and show us how you can take such things in a stride.

Okay time to find out what this fuss is all about. Cry baby or a typical Pakistani male?

I have a friend with a typical Pakistani last name, the guy travels pretty much every week national or international and every time he is identified for special frisking. He found out that he has a name similarity. Recently, his two kids 11 and 8 along with his wife were frisked and identified for special attention while they went on vacations.
I travel often, at least alternate weeks, and have never been frisked or identified for special treatment. Why? My name is so unique that all and sundry can’t have it. (Hint. Rhymes with Narejo on the other board.)

Recently, I had a couple of drinks at an airport lounge with a typical Redneck looking guy. Went thru the screening, that white chauvinistic male was thoroughly tested. The security gals commented and measured his balls with a measuring tape.
We met again; had some more drinks and he said “Man! They should have checked you out, you look like a ME man!
I said “True! But how often do they see plumbers trying to board a plane?”

Moral of the story: bad karma Shahid! Stop whining and get over it.

RE: #19 - Tahmed32

TAhmed32... I have never criticized nor ignored the legitimate concern of airline security in the above account or in any of my postings. Why you think otherwise is really beyond me. In my last paragraph I very CLEARLY write:

``A procedure for APPEALING is what is needed here.``

Please note the word ``APPEALING`` - I DID NOT say we need a new procedure for ``security``. I have never said anything other than that and go on to say:

``It is then that the government can attempt to strike an appropriate balance between respecting the values of equality while also ensuring the SAFETY OF THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY.``

Please note SAFTETY OF THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY.
DOST-MITTAR has most eloquently summed up my ``intent`` in his many postings should you continue to misconstrue/misread me and/or my account.

SM

nb. I do appreciate the ``cartoonist-compliment``.

kkandk: Intent is impossible to prove, and on that count everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise. Nor I think is Ahmedzai or self or veeresh or anyone else raising issues of intent on the part of Mr. Shahid M. I think he just got carried away with what he perceived to be improper conduct on the part of the airline people and the affront to his dignity - but then I wish he would acknowledge that airline security has become a primary concern after 9/11, and the life and death of airline passengers is more important than disruptions to his travel schedule.

You raise an interesting point concerning the roots of the problem that cause hijackers to fly planeloads of people into buildings full of people. To find the answer, I think we need go no further than Master Harimau, the nobel prize winning Hindutva Apologist on chowk: when someone mentions the murder of innocent muslims in Gujerat, he comes running to remind the world that there is an explanation for the killing of muslim families, viz. this was revenge for Godhra. The roots of the problem therefore rest in a mindset that has no respect for human life - in other words, the mindset of the terrorist. Hindu or muslim it does not matter. The mindset is the same.

Next problem (homework assignment): how does one fix the root of the problem, (a) fight it the best one can, or (b) stroke it gently and say ``there, there, I understand, you are unhappy and need to kill a few mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and husbands and wives and sons and daughters in order to feel better.``

Mr. Shahid: I appreciate your attempts at humor (you are good cartoonist, after all). I would appreciate even more if you were to stop ignoring the legitimate concern for airline security that has been brought to your attention by self and others. If you dont have a logical answer or rebuttal to criticism to your article, then as a mature adult you need to acknowledge that fact instead of ignoring it.

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Couldn`t resist with my #111 comment (wink!)...had a bet with some collegues to see how quickly tahemd32 and veeresh would swoop in. You did me proud (and a little bit richer!!) guys!
Shahid

shahid #105 I see you cant stop whining even when trying to be funny - while I am sure YOU wish you had those ``equiline european looks`` you talk about, the fact is that the canadians let your parents in regardless of their lack of such looks.

shahid #111 So Ahmedzai`s post strikes you as being foolish and dangerous. Ha! ha! There is nothing foolish about what Ahmedzai has written. Indeed, it is quite inciseful, as I have pointed out in my response to his post below. I agree though that his post is dangerous - BUT only to you. Because it reveals the truth about individuals like you.

i thought these things happened in the US.

Hello Shahid, why should it make you mad? I think it should make you focus on your own short-comings.

At some place in time and history, maybe after community prayers, rhetoric cum whining like yours could have probably inflamed passions everywhere. Fair enough, you set out to achieve something, you use every tool at your disposal to achieve it.

But, in this day and age, on the Internet? Such an attempt to ``find answers`` when all you appear to be doing is to try to whine, maybe even to stir passions, this would not work outside the most crowded of temples or mosques in India now, for sure. Even the most illiterate of labourers would respond at you with a shake of the head.

All it takes is to try to read between the lines of your article. Nobody hassled you on the inbound journey, nobody hassled you on the car hire, and you continue to write freely. In addition, the number of air-passengers still moving freely, in Canada and elsewhere, well, that speaks for itself.

And now, to top it all, you choose to try to call another person`s viewpoint as foolish, dangerous and conjectures? Is this some sort of common ailment with media types with allegiances to ``The Dawn``, where any view other than that of the ruling diety is supposed to be heresy? What next, will anybody dis-agreeing with you also be called a ``Pakistani basher``?

Or was your article written as a Humour piece?

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ahmedzai #109 Glad to see your post on chowk. You right - lurking wasnt the right word that I used.

I think the points you make are very incisive and valid. the first point being that this article (``it tries to raise the emotional level of an average Muslim just along the line Al Qaeda and extremist religious parties are doing all over the world to turn us against the West. `` and the second that ``innocents Pakistanis surely fell into the trap knowing little ``. Too many people in Pakistan are too ready to believe claptrap spread about the US. (I remember how the US embassy was burnt in Pakistan and one young marine defending the staff was shot dead in the late 1970s because someone spread the rumor that an attempted takeover of Mecca was done by the US - it turned out it was the iranians with the new-found fervor who were behind it. of course no one bothered to even show up before the iranian embassy).

It is for this reason that I am so disgusted by people like Shahid M. and urstruly who live and enjoy the fruits of the west while being perfectly happy to spread nonsense about it as the do on chowk. This bad mouthing of the western countries these people live in helps no one - least of all the thousands of Pakistanis who apply every day for visas to the US and other western countries.

RE: Ahmadzai wrote - ``My humble submission on this article is as follows: Shahid`s article has a weakness in that it tries to raise the emotional level of an average Muslim just along the line Al Qaeda and extremist religious parties are doing all over the world to turn us against the West. ``

---

If there is a post that made me really mad it is this one. It is a foolish yet dangerous post which takes totally unrelated thoughts and ideas, sews them together unscrupulously, and then ``humbly`` presently them as truths. How does one make these conjectures????
Shahid

tahmed32 and Shahid:

Since I am in the travel mode (and am not lurking :-))these days, I spend too little time on the net. My humble submission on this article is as follows:

Shahid`s article has a weakness in that it tries to raise the emotional level of an average Muslim just along the line Al Qaeda and extremist religious parties are doing all over the world to turn us against the West. If it were written from a neutral perspective telling us without an emotional undertone that Shahid as a Canadian was meted out wrong treatment and that he is taking Air Canada to court (which he probably will after reading so many posts from dost-mittar) that would have been way better thing to do. As new immigrants and expatriates, it would be much better to show us the way to stand up for our rights then to fall in the pit of self-pity.

When my family and I go through various checks at the airports around the world post 9/11 I thank our stars that we no longer travel under the flimsy security offerings of pre-9/11 era. Just imagine how insecure we were while flying in those days? Any Tom, Dick, Harry, Abdul or Gopiram could have boarded the plane and hijacked it.

Giving the touch of religious or ethnic emotionalism reminds me of an event that took place in Rawalpindi 6 months ago. A house of Jamate Islami activist was raided and an Al Qaeda member hiding there was nabbed. In her interview to ARY Digital, the sister of the activist told viewers, amongst other things, ``they broke into the house, abused the household and they were speaking English``. Actually, she was trying to imply that they were Americans from CIA, because the news of CIA actively persuing Al Qaeda inside Pakistani cities was being spread by MMA Mullas to raise anti-American emotionalism among the masses. The innocents Pakistanis surely fell into the trap knowing little that the member of anti-terrorism squad of Pakistani Police speaks in English frequently following in the footsteps of their officers from military and para-military.

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Shahid, I can relate very well with you on this issue. I was denied driving license twice in the Washington state, and was later interrogated by anti-terrorism taskforce during the special registration process because someone who has very similar name and date of birth is detained for running a terrorist cell in Oregon. Interestingly, that guy is an American. So now my records also include the information regarding who I am not. :) I think using biometrics more effectively will fix some of these issues in future. Other than that, my conclusion is that in this conflict, the best thing one can do is to patiently stay focused on one’s goals in life and hope not to get caught in the crossfire. Thanks.

RE: #103 - ``Look at the bright side, this problem will be solved probably in the next generation, provided you are judicial with your children`s names.``

kkkandk, One step ahead of you...I thought I had it all planned out by naming my future first-born Ed Kennedy...can`t do that now. Will have to settle for Henry Kissinger. Now if only had I those aqualine, European looks. Oh well!

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#100 shahid
So you`re in exalted company after all! I just heard that some other US lawmakers have come forward with the complaint that they are required to show EXTRA IDENTIFICATION when they fly. Perhaps that`s the case with you as well. Unless canada also has a process to clear your name from a no-fly list (how can you clear your name from a nonexisting list?), you probably should carry your passport with you when you travel.

Sorry for the long paste, but this is rather funny!
Enjoy.

NYT
August 20, 2004
Senator? Terrorist? A Watch List Stops Kennedy at Airport
By RACHEL L. SWARNS

WASHINGTON, Aug. 19 - The meeting had all the hallmarks of an ordinary Congressional hearing. There was Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, discussing the problems faced by ordinary citizens mistakenly placed on terrorist watch lists. Then, to the astonishment of the crowd attending a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday, Mr. Kennedy offered himself up as Exhibit A.

Between March 1 and April 6, airline agents tried to block Mr. Kennedy from boarding airplanes on five occasions because his name resembled an alias used by a suspected terrorist who had been barred from flying on airlines in the United States, his aides and government officials said.

Instead of acknowledging the craggy-faced, silver-haired septuagenarian as the Congressional leader whose face has flashed across the nation`s television sets for decades, the airline agents acted as if they had stumbled across a fanatic who might blow up an American airplane. Mr. Kennedy said they refused to give him his ticket.

``He said, `We can`t give it to you`,`` Mr. Kennedy said, describing an encounter with an airline agent to the rapt audience. `` `You can`t buy a ticket to go on the airline to Boston.` I said, `Well, why not?` He said, `We can`t tell you.` ``

``Tried to get on a plane back to Washington,`` Mr. Kennedy continued. `` `You can`t get on the plane.` I went up to the desk and said, `I`ve been getting on this plane, you know, for 42 years. Why can`t I get on the plane?` ``

The hearing room erupted in laughter.

Mr. Kennedy said his situation highlighted the odyssey encountered by people whose names had mistakenly appeared on terrorist watch lists or resembled the names of suspected terrorists on such lists. In April, the American Civil Liberties Union sued the government on behalf of seven airline passengers who said they had wrongly been placed on no-fly lists or associated with names on the lists and could not find a way to clarify their identities.

In Mr. Kennedy`s case, airline supervisors ultimately overruled the ticket agents in each instance and allowed him to board the plane. But it took several weeks for the Department of Homeland Security to clear the matter up altogether, the senator`s aides said.

Just days after Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge called Mr. Kennedy in early April to apologize and to promise that the problems would be resolved, another airline agent tried to stop Mr. Kennedy from boarding a plane yet again. The alias used by the suspected terrorist on the watch list was Edward Kennedy, said David Smith, a spokesman for the senator.

At the hearing, Mr. Kennedy wondered how ordinary citizens could navigate the tangled bureaucracy if a senator had so much trouble. ``How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?`` he asked.

Asa Hutchinson of the Department of Homeland Security, who was testifying at the Senate hearing, said his department was working to address the situation. He said travelers with such problems should contact the ombudsman at the Transportation Security Administration, a division of Homeland Security, who would help them take steps to clarify their identities.

``There is a process to clear names,`` said Mr. Hutchinson, the department`s under secretary for border security. ``But it does illustrate the importance of improving the whole system, which we are very aggressively working to do.``

On Monday, Mr. Hutchinson told Congress that Homeland Security officials planned to take over the checking of names of passengers against the no-fly lists. The responsibility is now carried out by the airlines, to ensure that terror suspects do not board airplanes and that law enforcement officials are promptly notified of potential security risks.

Advocates for tougher screening requirements say the current system is ineffective because the government does not provide the airlines with a comprehensive set of watch lists, in part because some of that information is classified. Civil libertarians also cite instances in which airlines have mistakenly denied passengers the right to fly.

The ticket agents who tried to block Mr. Kennedy from boarding planes to Washington, Boston, Palm Beach and New York worked for US Airways, Senate officials said. Amy Kudwa, a US Airways spokeswoman, acknowledged that Mr. Kennedy was a frequent passenger, but declined to comment on the incidents.

Lawyers for the American Civil Liberties Union said they did not know how many people had been mistakenly placed on watch lists. But they said the sluggish responses from the airline and the government to Mr. Kennedy`s efforts to clear his name demonstrated the absurdity of the no-fly system.

``It demonstrates all those things that we found problems with in the first place, `` said Reginald Shulford of the A.C.L.U.``If you`re Ted Kennedy, you can call a friend,`` Mr. Shulford said. ``If you`re an average citizen you cannot. You can complain to the Department of Homeland Security, but to no avail.``

At the hearing, Mr. Kennedy emphasized his concern for passengers stuck on no-fly lists. But he tried to make light of his own troubles.

He said, to much laughter, that he did not believe the mistake was a conspiracy engineered by his Republican colleagues. And as Mr. Hutchinson offered up his apologies, Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, responded jokingly in kind.

Mr. Hutchinson said, ``Senator, we do regret that inconvenience to you.``

Mr. Hatch said, ``Quit smiling when you say that.``

Senator Kennedy Flagged (must be an ira connectoin).

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&ncid=718&e=5&u=/ap/20040820/ap_on_go_co/kennedy_terror_list

dawg, we all shall perish as civilizatoins, its what legacy we leave behind. greeks and romans have left behind plenty of legacy, every time you go over an arched bridge or participate in a ``forum`` such as this, the legacy hounds you.

Hey DO YOU KNOW WHO IS THE BIGGEST PIMP IN THIS WHOLE WORLD. Let me tell you.. its USA and the rest of the world is like its whores and what do you think if a whore slaps you her pimp is right behind her, so take this treatment as a worthless whore slap and keep your head tall and walk away with honor. What does USA think it can twist arms of any one by its force then lets look at history; Romans and Greeks also had that kind of military might but they also perished, so my friend their time is near too.

Folks
we are actually more worried about the possiblity of jihadis getting hold of enriched uranimum and causing a few orange glows, which will send the whole world in a deep economic and psychological recession, follwed by wars, famines and sickeness and untold misery. while we think human rights are important, its human life as we know it is at stake. so let us please keep things in perspective for sake of poor people of this world who will bear the main brunt of this turmoil. osama and his tribe will buy their way out of it, but pakis and indians will be happy to get a piece of bread by selling their loved ones.

so, for the sake of saving innocent children from starving in the future, please be vigilant.

Urstruly#95

Samajhane vale samajh gaye hain
Na samajhe jo anaarhi hain!

But you are no anaarhi, and if I explain more, it will shift the focus of discussion in a different direction. So, let`s leave it at that!

i would ask all our brothers to show-up at the peace bridge and ask for asylum to the US. US is a land of human rights, and will accept you if you show them how the Canuks dont care for civil rights. Here is a story how in the US profiling is taken very seriously, even when the security of its own Vice President is in question.

http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/dailystar/32301.php

A rally organizer for the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign asked Teri Hayt, the Star`s managing editor, to disclose the journalist`s race on Friday. After Hayt refused, the organizer called back and said the journalist probably would be allowed to photograph the vice president.

``It was such an outrageous request, I was personally insulted,`` Hayt said later.

Danny Diaz, a spokesman for the president`s re-election campaign, said the information was needed for security purposes.

``All the information requested of staff, volunteers and participants for the event has been done so to ensure the safety of all those involved, including the vice president of the United States,`` he said.

Diaz repeated that answer when asked if it is the practice of the White House to ask for racial information or if the photographer, Mamta Popat, was singled out because of her name. He referred those questions to the U.S. Secret Service, which did not respond to a call from the Star Friday afternoon.

tahmed32

Excerpt 1 was response to ali1 or somebody - not for general consumption. Excerpt 2 has nothing racist about it.

Anyway - until next time - see ya.

that doesn`t answer my question

what ideology?

Urstruly:
The one being taught at certain (not all!) madrassahs.

DM/89 - sirji . . . how can you say that the issue is one of why he was flagged, in isolation from everything else? I mean, a certain percentage of people will be flagged everyday, sooner or later everybody`s turn will come.

What I am objecting to is the assumption that the writer makes that what happened to him was because he was a Pakistani. My submission here is that, in Canada as elsewhere, at different times in history, this sort of thing has happened to various groups of people.

Shall add more at length later.

DM

what ideology you are talking about

Urstruly:
``We must stop this war and this war cannot stop until we find a political solution to the problem.``

...and what`s the problem? Injustices in the world? Was there ever a time when there was no injustice in the world? But these did not result in a ``civilisational`` war.
No, my friend, it is your turn to own up to your part of the responsibility for what`s going on. While one can understand the resistance being put up by Iraqis, Palestinians and others directly affected by an event, it is the tendency of those not directly affected by those events to jump into the fray -not as members of the UN, Arab League or even OIC but as individuals to blow themselves up, which is causing these huge problems to millions of innocent people like Shahid Mahmood. So, why not deal with the ideology that encourages such behaviour?

Now, you can go ahead and call me a ``sarkaari gawah`` for being able to see both sides of the issue.

veeresh:
I am afraid we have some disagreements here.
``1) there is nothing new about his ongoing whining about being denied his basic rights. It happens all over the world, and it will continue happening, to vast groups of people.``

I do not know about the world but it did not happen in Canada in recent past. As long as one had proper documents, entry was allowed. Even if one did not have proper documentation, one only had to utter the magic word ``refugee`` and entry was ensured.

``2) just because it is Canada does not mean that there is no history or tradition, past or present, of discrimination or denial of rights.``

Yes, there is but the society is trying to correct historical wrongs, to the extent of special measures, such as an apology to Japanese Canadians for their treatment during the War and of native people for depriving them of their land and cultural rights.

``3) by stating that his wife was permitted because she was not of Pakistani origin, and broadening that to include the sub-Continent, Shahid brings out the perception that it was his ``origin`` which caused the denial. Well, Shahid should know that being denied boarding/entry/free passage, these are not new things for people like us from the sub-Continent.

If Shahid had, in all his writings and cartoons, even once taken up the case of laborers and other poor people being denied boarding and worse all over the world, then I would have understood his predicament vis-a-vis the Canadian authorities.``

Are you suggesting that one must be a flagbearer of others` problems to earn the right to stand up for his rights? If so, you are setting up a much higher standard of morality than I do.

``Let Shahid take this forward as part of a larger group with a larger worldview. Maybe you as an economist can add by stating your views on the economics of the whole thing.``

It`s for Shahid to decide whether he wants to fight for himself or for all downtrodden. One can always look for an economic angle in anything but I prefer to see it as a human rights issue and not that of cost-benefit.

``Something like that happened to Gandhiji in South Africa over a century ago, and he took on the Empire on behalf of everybody, not just for himself. That`s where I am coming from. If we all have to draw inspiration from history, look there. Gandhiji was best of breed advocate, but who did he fight for when he woke up to see his truth?``

Once again, if one is not a Gandhi, one shouldn`t complain? Surely, I am missing something. In any case, Gandhiji was in violation of the law of the land, howsoever unjust the law might have been. Shahid, on the other hand, did not break any law and if he did, he has not been told about it.

To me, the issue is simply one of his right to know why he was flagged. I think that this society has, generally, gone overboard in protecting the rights of the individual versus protecting the society, such as privacy laws, parole rules, unanimous jury decisions, etc. But in the name of security, some basic rights are being trampled with. Even our justice minister, Ian Cotler, has said that these rules need to be looked into. And he, by the way, is a prominent leader of the Canadian Jewish Congress.

tahmed32/86 - I could provide you with anecdotes by the ice-cream barrel full (butterscotch) about language issues abroad in the pre-visa days . . . but hey, for a moment . . . why do you assume I am only talking about boarding denied for getting into non-3rdworld countries?

Boarding denied for any reason, entering or leaving, and the countries I mentioned pertain to points between and near Dammam through Dhaka.

thanks very much for nothing, shahid. i asked what flagging is-i now have some idea. you have every right to complain.

veeresh #85 actually on looking at it again, your q2 below is NOT a very good one - desis were never ``denied boarding`` in pre-9/11 days based on nationality (keep in mind that airlines are there to make money). instead, desis (and indeed third world people generally) were ``denied entry`` to countries when they tried to get in by breaking their rules(i.e. by showing up without visas), which is a totally different thing. in the 1960`s in fact, most european countries including germany did not require any visas from pakistanis (and presumably other third world nationalities) at all - all that changed when large numbers started to go to these countries in the 1970`s and started settling down. airlines thus started to check for visas as well. my elder brother (who was a student in germany back then) used to make some extra money by acting as interpreter and had some interesting stories to tell - like the fellow who the german police thought had gone on hunger strike in jail after being caught for illegal entry to germany - but (as he explained in panjabi to my brother) the problem was they were serving him meat which he was sure was not halal. so my brother suggested they change his diet to some fine german bread and vegies and everybody was happy.

tahmed32/84 - Reference to Oklahoma was aimed at those trying to justify a stricter post 9/11 scenario at airports based on background and profiling.

Much before Pakistanis and ex-Pakistanis became khatta-meetha pickle of choice for matters pertaining to aviation, the FBI was going around questioning people at the Airman Flying School in Norman, Oklahoma. This was 1996-1998, and pertained to trainee pilots (Philipino) Abdul Hakim Murad and another pilot identified only as Osama Bin Laden`s pilot.

veeresh:
On q1) how does oklahoma slip into this? you mean there is a danger from refugees from the oklahoma dust bowl of the 1930`s coming to canada via a time machine and hijacking planes? or maybe there is a danger of 19 little old ladies getting onto planes and forcing the passengers to knit sweaters?? when it comes to matters of life and death (which is what aircraft security is about), you dont fool around with hurting someone`s (even a world famous cartoonist like shahid m.) feelings.

On q2) now this is a good question.

tahmed32/82 - sirji, my usage of the Gandhiji/South Africa example was used because it is similar to what Shahid chose to imply . . . that he (Shahid) was denied boarding in Canada on grounds of a name/religion/colour/previous nationality, which links to a particular religion/race/colour. Racial discrimination, Security concern, Religious segregation?

q1) For all:- If it was only about security concerns, then, with all due respects, how far back in history do we go in Canada or USA? Why just to 9/11? Should everybody from Oklahoma also be denied boarding?

q2) Specifically for Shahid as a mediaperson:-If it was only about being denied boarding on grounds of background, then why complain only about Canada? Look closer home? How many people of Pakistani - or sub-Continenal - origin are ``denied boarding`` or worse on a daily basis in friendly neighbouring countries? And, after all that, simply vanish? Where are your whines about them?

Which is also what I tried to explain when I said the Canadian officials must be having a great laugh. I mean, here is a person unwilling to defend or complain about his own ``back home``, but whining about something less offensive in Canada?

veeresh #81 your post makes good sense until the end - Gandhi was kicked out of the first class compartment in the south african railways at the turn of the last century because of racial segregation. Shahid was bumped off the flight because of hightened security concerns after 9/11. Big difference, since racial segratation is unjustified while security concerns stem from the right of self-defense of every human and every society and is fully justified.

dost-mittar/59, sirji, who is denying Shahid his rights? All I am stating is that

1) there is nothing new about his ongoing whining about being denied his basic rights. It happens all over the world, and it will continue happening, to vast groups of people. For the purposes of this article, let us say it shall happen to people from the sub-Continent who have certain kinds of surnames.

2) just because it is Canada does not mean that there is no history or tradition, past or present, of discrimination or denial of rights. Just the players change sides now and then, and re-write history to suit themselves, and it is strange that you put forth the argument that in the case of Canada, their shady past needs to be ignored or condoned?

3) by stating that his wife was permitted because she was not of Pakistani origin, and broadening that to include the sub-Continent, Shahid brings out the perception that it was his ``origin`` which caused the denial. Well, Shahid should know that being denied boarding/entry/free passage, these are not new things for people like us from the sub-Continent.

If Shahid had, in all his writings and cartoons, even once taken up the case of laborers and other poor people being denied boarding and worse all over the world, then I would have understood his predicament vis-a-vis the Canadian authorities.

But here, he expects me as a reader and inter-actor to have sympathy for him on an individual basis? What does he think, we are so naive?

Let Shahid take this forward as part of a larger group with a larger worldview. Maybe you as an economist can add by stating your views on the economics of the whole thing.

But it cannot sound as though an English speaking middle class WOG in Canada, after years in Pakistani media, has suddenly discovered truth as applying to him alone.

Something like that happened to Gandhiji in South Africa over a century ago, and he took on the Empire on behalf of everybody, not just for himself. That`s where I am coming from. If we all have to draw inspiration from history, look there. Gandhiji was best of breed advocate, but who did he fight for when he woke up to see his truth?

Dost Mitter

You have misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make through out my many posts was that the issue of profiling, detentions, deportations and inhuman torture of Muslims in prisons, all are just tangential issues. The real issue is the war. Now call it a war of civilizations, or war on terror, or war on colonial agression, an uprising against imperial occupation, a Jihad or a crusade, the point is that there is something going on that has upset the whole world from Norh America to Japan. What is that these two people fighting for. We have to find that out. We must stop this war and this war cannot stop until we find a political solution to the problem. A war by definition is the ultimate mean to reach a political solution. But do we know what the political problem is?

Dost Mittar: I think I made clear what these responsibilities are, but let me repeat it - an understanding of the hightened security concerns after 9/11 which led to Shahid M. being bumped off the plane. Nowhere is this reflected in the article.

mophar #75 So you never made racist comments against anybody, you say. Facts are just a few clicks away, and here are a couple of gentlemanlike statements I pulled from you. I challenge you to pull anything that comes even close to this from any of the quadzilion posts i have written in 4 years. As I said, I would be flattered at being held to a far higher standards than you (until perhaps a couple of months ago) or many of your countrymen who show up on chowk. :-)

Never made a racist comment indeed! Knowing you, I am sure you will find another excuse for what you wrote below and keep arguing - but as for me I am through with my discussion with you. bye bye.

``your bloodline started when a bunch smelly mughal soldiers on their way to battle decided to have a little fun with your great-great-.....-great-grand-mother(she was hindu). They gang-r@ped her and thus your great-great...grand papa was born. Voila - your bloodline started. All of you pakis are born that way. Product of r@pes of hindu women. ``

and

````See - that is the real, pure red-blooded pakistani for you. He is the wolf in wolf`s skin. He doesn`t play games like other pakis do ... you know - shedding crocodile tears ... mouthing sweet words ... writing volumes about friendship with hindus ... at the same time dropping money in to Jihad donation boxes that will be used to kill hindus. ``

And I didnt have to go too far into your past to dig these gems out (April 6 2004, scholarly discussionns ``murder on helm street``)

this just shows that for all the hue and cry for canada being a great nation and following a clean foreign policy etc, all it is, is uncle sam`s b!tch. a mere data-base from US seems to trigger suspention of human right (is flying a human right?).

i blame al-queda for bringing us to this sad juncture. and not just muslims (of urstruely kind) but whole humanity will be set back by a millenium the way the things are going.

Urstruly:
Are you really an optimist?
My agreement with your previous post was wrt Moore`s film and how the american media hid the facts from americans, the role of the oil barons and their links and those of the key Bush people with the Saudi royals including Bin Laden family. As regards to the nature of this ``war`` I had clarified my disagreement with you. I do not believe that this is a war of the west. Why do you look at the negatives only? Didn`t you notice that very few countries agreed to side with Bush in his coalition of the increasingly unwilling ``willing``? Haven`t you noticed that even in the countries whose govts. were bribed into participation, the overwhelming sentiments of the citizens are against this war? So, this is not the civilisational war, so please let`s not make it one.
What`s the way out? This is indeed the question being asked by everyone. I think that the Americans were on the right track when they said that the key to the middle east peace lies in the resolution of the Palestinian ``nasoor``. Unfortunately, they did not keep their eye on the ball and let Aaron shred the roadmap developed by the four countries and agreed in general by both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Unfortunately, I am not very hopeful of any solution any time soon.
The more relevant question is what can someone like you do? I think people like you -namely muslims in the non-muslim world- should present a softer interpretaion of your religion, something that tahmed32 has been trying to do regardless of whether or not that is a correct interpretation. That is the kind of non-confrontational interpretation calling jihadis to be not true muslims is what is needed for survival in the pluralist societies in which we live. Also, we should do whateve we can to ensure that the christian right does not gather more political clout than it has in the US.

tahmed32:
I do not know what responsibilities shahid is not fulfilling. Is he hiding any terrorists or supporting them? As far as I am concerned, he is fulfilling his responsibilities as a citizen by ensuring that the integrity of the Canadian charter of rights is maintained.

#72 by tahmed32
//...I see you have tried to change ...//

I have never made racist comments against anybody, at anytime - so there is no change really. What might have changed is the fact you are reading the issues more carefully.

About holding you to ``high standards`` - yes of course .... because that`s implicit in your own arguemnts.... Since you are accussing Indians about all sorts of sins, naturally you must take care not to commit the same sins yourself. If you do then you basically defeat your own argument. And all your accusations on Indians becomes hollow and meaningless.

So it`s up to you really.

#34 by dost-mittar on August 17, 2004 10:19am PT
Well said!!! I have tried to explain this here but to no avail. Keep up the good work.

mchowdhry#40:
``If Air Canada decides that it doesn`t want to fly you, because the check-in agent does not like the look on your face, they are perfectly entitled to decline your patronage. ``

This is news to me. I had assumed that as a federally chartered corporation and the one heavily subsidised by the Canadian taxpayer, Air Canada would be subject to the Canadian Human Rights Charter which prohibits discrimination on various specific grounds.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I did not know that Air Canada was still receiving tax-payer`s funds. If this is the case, you are right. They can not deny boarding indiscriminately.

My original conclusion still stands. If Air Canada had been left to the mercy of the free market, as opposed to enjoying government favoritism, it`s quality of service would be far higher than it is right now.

This problem has been created by foolish politicians in Ottawa.

mohar #69 Your post clearly implies that you hold me to a far higher standard of behavior than the one you (in the past, although recently I see you have tried to change and I am waiting to see how long this lasts) or countless countrymen of yours have demonstrated even on this very board (e.g. to take an extreme case, harimau`s justification for the state sponsored murder of innocent Indian muslims in Gujrat on this board does not get any attention from you.).

I would be flattered by this sincere demonstration of the high standard of conduct on which you place me IF I did not consider individuals like harimau to be beneath contempt anyway. Now you can rush to deny this is the case - but actions speak louder than words. ha! ha!

harimau #70 you write ``The reference to Mullah32`s father was NOT gratuitous nor was it remotely suggestive. Mullah32 had long ago mentioned how his father got into the textbook publishing business after his migration from India to Pakistan.``

You are a bigger fool than I thought. My father was never in the textbook publishing business. If you wish to prove you are not a fool, go and find any post from me where I say this.

(as for referring to me as mullah rather than my nick - you probably think you are being very clever. That would be true if you were a kindergarten kid, you blood-minded half-brained little man).

tahmed
//...indian after another come on chowk tossing unprovoked insults to my country or my people or my religion i dont mind speaking their language i feel like it ..//

So the indians made you do it - indians forced you to use bigoted words and racist slurs. Is that it?

Come on man - how far are you going to stretch the ``Indian Boogeyman``?

At some point - you got to assume some responsibility for your own actions, your country`s actions and your religion`s influence.

Ref HP #68

[Aren’t you the same guy, who has been cheer leading the RRS brigade in their new found piece of history about Prophet Mohammed and his six years old wife, concubines and houris?]

Prophet Mohammad`s (PBUH) 6-year-old wife is NOT new-found history by the RSS. Muslim historians have documented that Ayesha was 6 years old when Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) married her. Even they only argue that the marriage was not consummated until later (like around 9 or 12 years of age), as if that absolves Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) of the crime of child molestation.

[Now mention of elephants hurts you!]

Either you lack comprehension or you make connections where none exists. Mullah32 pointed out that in India people get burnt to death in their homes for the crime of belonging to a minority religion. I merely pointed out that the Gujarat riots were the direct result of the burning of the train carrying Hindu pilgrims at Godhra, a fact that you Islamic thugs never mention and the hand-wringing apologetic Hindus do not want to remember in their haste to bend over forward to be nice to Islamic thugs.

[If you prefer to discuss somebody’s father on this board, it is very much possible that some would find it okay to discuss your female family members. Are you game for that too?]

The reference to Mullah32`s father was NOT gratuitous nor was it remotely suggestive. Mullah32 had long ago mentioned how his father got into the textbook publishing business after his migration from India to Pakistan. So any comment I made is in context (though it might be obtuse to pathetic peabrained idiots like you). I don`t understand why a reference to a textbook would trigger strange thoughts in your mind unless it is because you associate that with incidents in your schooldays about which we at Chowk don`t want to know and don`t care to speculate. On the other hand, talking dirty about any interactor`s female relatives seems to be the specialty of Pakistanis when they cannot refute their opponent`s arguments and have nothing useful to say.

#60 by harimau

Aren’t you the same guy, who has been cheer leading the RRS brigade in their new found piece of history about Prophet Mohammed and his six years old wife, concubines and houris?

Now mention of elephants hurts you!

If you prefer to discuss somebody’s fathe