An Air Canada Flagging

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kaurasach: you are too smart for us muslims. you see through everything. of course the one billion muslims (the ones from the subcontinent being of course converts from the untouchable caste, btw, and just denying our low caste) have a secret pact with the devil.

happy, oh high caste non-convert son of the great Elephant God??

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Shahid,

Out of curiosity, did you write to The Star, or the Globe and Mail? I would be disappointed if they wouldn`t cover this story...

The Star did cover the story as well as OMNI News. This was done primarily to pressure Air Canada to repond to my charges and build up a certain public awareness. After the OMNI segment aired Air Canada immediately sent me their ``official response`` which denied the flagging. Later, a politican who did some digging around on my behalf actually corroborated the flagging and exposed the cover-up. I`m in the process of determining who placed the flag on me in the first place and will, at that point, determine what action to take.

Shahid:
Have you yet contacted Transport Canada`s ombudsman appointed last year to deal with the passengers` complaints.
I am totally surprised by the 15-20% figure of flagging quoted by you. I would have expected the media to pick it up as a major story. And it certainly cannot help a company facing bankruptcy to lose so many passengers because of govt. regulations.

Frankly, I don`t know what Shahid is getting upset about.

a) The drive from Vancouver BC to Victoria, and if you add the ferry parts, go around to Seattle through the Juan de Fuca Strits, these are extremely lovely compared to a boring flight, and these are elements for which I would come from India.

b) Getting denied a ticket for short journeys is no big deal anymore, in many parts of the world, especially if you are buying tickets ``on the spot``. Can you imagine trying to buy a ticket from, say, Kuwait to Dammam? Or maybe from Delhi to Lahore?

The answers, my Dear Shahid, lie in the folds of our kismet.

They, the answers and the questions, lie in the way we have tried to demand equality wih other societies while denying it to our own.

Can you imagine how hypocritical some of your questions appear to the average Joe Canadian Government person?

#2 by tahmed32

If I`m not mistaken, kaurasach is a Sikh and has nothing to do with the Elephant God. A bit too quick, were you?

#6 - Dost Mittar...it is a very high percentage and there have been a number of stories about this in the media...some counts are actually higher. The flagging, however, doesn`t reflect people who are not allowed to fly. You can be flagged but still allowed to fly...your profile, in these instances, will be highlighted for future flights. Some of the stories I have been hearing recently from journalists, lawyers, and friends are quite disturbing. As for Transport Canada they have actually denied, when contacted, of keeping any such security lists.

Shahid M: Read Nikki`s post to understand the spite that fills so many Indians. And he is just one example. Look at kaurasach`s post below that to understand the mindset. And these are just two out of countless Indians who have come to chowk to demonstrate their mindset. Can you imagine any other people being so full of hatred?

Then thank your lucky stars that you live in Canada. In Canada they bump you off aeroplanes for security reasons. In India they burn you alive in your homes for belonging to a minority religion. I for one never really cared much about why Pakistan was formed until I came to chowk and understood the mindset that caused Jinnah and co to wisely decide to move away. I wish India all success - but am glad we dont have to put up with this mindset in real life.

And quit whining, btw - so what if you got bumped? Ask your parents the real problems they escaped when they made it to Canada from Pakistan (the joblessness, poverty, insecurity). it furthermore wasnt 19 white women who hijacked planes on 9/11. I would rather Mr. Shahid Mahmood have reason to complain because he got bumped off then risk another hi-jacking.

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# nikki7777

Your anti-Sikh diatribe is getting irritating now. If you haven`t got it by now, Sikhs are an integral part of Indian community and will remain forever so. So focus on more important issues, if you can.

- Avkrishna

shahid, can you tell me what flagging is? thanks.
tahmed, you`re letting your hatred shine through. :)

This sort of experience is one I am really scared about. I happen to share my last name and initials with a rather well-known Kashmiri militant (that`s a nice middle ground for the terrorist/ freedom fighter divide, huh?) and I dread the day they`ll shunt me off a plane and interrogate me in my undies in the lounge. My worst fear is that I`ll be deported to Peshawar where the locals give me a hero`s welcome.

I initially thought the title read, ``Flogging`` and not flagging. I hope you weren`t flogged, and were just flagged.

Contact the Pakistani MP, Wajid Khan, and see if he does anything. Or Carolyn Parish. Both from Mississauga. Both of them owe their seats to Pakistanis. We worked our asses off for one of them, and he didn`t even bother to send a thank you note. So I am really interested in seeing, whether they are all talk. Or whether they would actually do something. If that doesn`t work, then I think the 26 year old Sardarji MP, with the kirpan, may do the trick.

At the very least, you should get a couple of free tickets out of it.

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kaurasuch: ``:Stop blaming others what your fellow ``braathers`` brought upon you. ``

Show me anything I wrote to back your statement. In fact I am saying the opposite. It was obviously high noon (being a sardar, you will understand what I mean) for you when you wrote this.

This is amazing. Even in the US, with all the paranoia since 9/11, all you need is a picture ID, not a passport. Makes sense since many americans don`t have a passport. Yours appears to be a case of profiling based on your appearance and your name and perhaps your accent. In the future, carry a digital voice recorder with you so you can record your conversations.

nb: i dont hate anyone. for indians, i just feel sorry for the pathetic creeps who show up on chowk and puff themselves and start acting as if the world shares the indian hatred for pakistanis. this seems to be a national delusion among indians. indians are alone in their hatred for pakistan - and they dont matter since 1 billion indians is still not enough to pose any danger to pakistan. pakistanis just need to come to chowk once in a while when they start feeling to hospitable and friendly to indians though.

of course, we also have pathetic pakistanis like shahid mahmood who is all to ready to start whining. i dont hate them either, just feel sorry for them.

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kaurasuch #21 I see you ducked the challenge I posed to you to back your statement. That is very clever given that in your case time seems to have stopped at high noon. However, being on high noon, you forgot that on chowk you cant duck and you cant lie. But dont worry - by now i have caught about a dozen of your countrymen telling lies on chowk. Seems to be an epidemic (a kind of a moral equivalent of the AIDs epidemic that is spreading like wildfire in India, if you know what I mean despite it being high noon for you all the time).

Shahid

I must commend you for bringing this injustice to the fore on various forra. But lately I have not been very hopeful in the syetm of checks and balances that whiteman has established in their countries. The anti-Muslim and anti-Arab hatered and bigotry that has been scietifically being injected into their societies for so many decades is not going to go away. It is here to stay. Today a point has come that these people do not even consider Arabs or Muslims as human beings. Had there not been a strong tradition of law and order in their societies, they would have exterminated their Muslim populations by now. Muslims are not safe because of their moral values but only because of their laws. But now they have slowly ammending their laws as well - profiling was just a begining.

Ref veeresh #7

[Frankly, I don`t know what Shahid is getting upset about. ...

b) Getting denied a ticket for short journeys is no big deal anymore, in many parts of the world, especially if you are buying tickets ``on the spot``. Can you imagine trying to buy a ticket from, say, Kuwait to Dammam? Or maybe from Delhi to Lahore?]

Kuwait-to-Dammam and Lahore-to-Delhi are international flights. Vancouver-to-Victoria is a domestic flight.

I used to be able to board the Washington, DC-New York (La Guardia) shuttle without a ticket and pay on board. They did it because of the added convenience for the passenger. And if you didn`t have a seat on the flight you wanted to take, there was always another one in an hour.

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Urstruly#24:
``But lately I have not been very hopeful in the syetm of checks and balances that whiteman has established in their countries.``

That`s an exaggersation. ``. I am aware of the warts in the Canadian system and wrote about them in ``Outsourcing Torture``, but the system works when you squeal and Shahid is doing the right thing by squealing. His case is not over yet. It`s more a matter of ``der`` than of ``andher.

dost mitter, you are not neither a Muslim nor an Arab.

If there is so much racial injustice and tyranny in western lands why don`t they move to places where there is no racial problem ?

Where ?............... oh !! i don`t know.... may be .... like... Pakistan ?

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kaurasuch: So: Lies are better than the truth....another bit of high noon wisdom from sardar kaurasach.

Veeresh #7

`Can you imagine how hypocritical some of your questions appear to the average Joe Canadian Government person? `

Why should this seem hypocritical??? this is a Candian citizen asking his govt. for an explanation.

Tahmed

Take it easy man - otherwise you will pop an artery. You are singing this ``Hate-filled-Indians-bashing-Pakis`` routine for a long time. As pointed out here many times - it don`t really matter. Pakis/muslims are very much in trouble around the world and hate-filled Indians are not the reason for that. You guys have really done it to yourselves.

Also ease up on racist/bigoted slurs .... your slur on ``elephant god``, racist remark about ``saradr at high-noon`` is just proof of your low-class/bigoted upbringing. Your facade is breaking down.

Urstruly:
Doolhay na sahi, par baraati zaroor hain!
I have probably more muslim Canadian friends than you do (and have been ``randomly screened`` too). At least in Ottawa, we do not make much difference between Indians and Pakistanis most of the time. Let me give you a recent example. Last Thursday, I went to a tribute to my late friend Moin Ashraf for his writing. Moin (`Mike` to us) was among the first desi settlers in Ottawa. The function was arranged as a tribute to Indo Canadian writers by the Indian High Commission as part of its week-long celebration of India`s independence day. What would surprise you however is that Ashraf was in fact a Pakistani (a muhajir from India) who always felt more comfortable with his Indian friends even though married to the daughter of a very prominent Pakistani, Begum Shaista Ikramullah. He is by no means an exception. When recently, a young Pakistani boy was arrested (he is still in jail) under POTA, the best character certificate in the local newspaper came from his Hindu school-mate.
You may find it hard to believe but we do try to feel each other`s pain.

Shahid: are you still whining? I think that instead of bumping people like you off plains, canadians should put them on the plane - with a one way ticket to jeddah or mirpur (you choice).

urstruly to dost mittar: ``You are neither a muslim nor an Arab``. The same can be said for you. Only difference is that he knows it and you dont.

mohar: actually muslims are doing quite well the world over in case you havent noticed. the average income of most muslim countries (excluding pakistan and bangladesh which are in the same cesspool as india) is higher, much higher in many cases, than most desi countries. and muslims are now a significant political constituency in nearly every major western nation. contrary to the whinings of shahid m. in this article, and contrary to the delusions of many indians on chowk, the fact is that muslims and muslim places of worship are treated with great respect in the west. so it is time for indians to wake up and smell the coffee.

the ironic thing is (as many indians themselves noted during their visit to pakistan) that it is only in Pakistan that indians have been treated warmly. obviously most pakistanis have not come to chowk to see for themselves the hatred that boils in the minds of ``educated`` indians.

Dost Mitter

Unfortunately the matter has gone beyond the individual level and now it has gone upto a civilizational level. At individual level there are always good people there. For example, there are many Germans who are credited with saving Jewish lives. Similarly, during Partition, there were many Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs who saved each others lives, but that did not stop millions from getting murdered. I am pretty sure that if today ethnic cleansing of Muslims starts in West there will be some Westerners who will try to save some Muslims. But in this present day war that West has declared on Islam, from the evangilist point of view, the `Rapture` has already occurred, therefore, from now on everything is irreversible. Although, any war, when in progress, is a highly fluid situation and no one can predict what the utimate outcome would be, but fact on the ground is that the West is losing pathetically at least on moral and political front (and to some extent militarily as well). This will make them even more intolerant and frustrated so their demands from Muslims residing in their lands that they should declare whether `they are with them or with us` will increase. Muslim expatriates are in a quandry - most of them left their countries escaping from political oppression, lawlessness, hunger, disease, and poverty. They have started a comfortable life here where they have dignity and relative affluence and their children are safe and well fed. They would not want anything to do with their war torn lawless homelands now and they will pledge their alligeince to West in a heartbeat if given a chance - but unfortunately, their pledges have no meaning now. They are suspects now. A westerner would rather hold a Muslim suspect than taking his chances to get blown up somewhere in his own country. And here comes the profiling. People, like Shahid can scream their throats dry and people like you can release pigeons of peace at every occasssion you get but it will not change anything. I do not see any hope in near future. Mind you that I am by nature a very optimistic person, but sometimes there are writings on the wall.

Please explain to me how this war will end. When Osama will be caught? or when global resitance or global terror - depending on where are you standing - will be controlled? Many Western leaders have declared openly and publicaly several times that they have started this war so that this war is fought in enemy lands and not their own. If you look at the situation logically, their approach is to crush the global resistance using the local authorities and government. Logically, they are doing excatly the same thing which created the resistance in the first place. So their approach is that if they could inflict more pain on their enemy than the vice versa can, they will eventually win. Will this approach work? We have yet to see and but until then profiling is here to stay.

I am sorry to hear of your unfortunate episode with Air Canada.

The problem is not Air Canada, it`s rather the Canadian government and it`s interference in the Canadian airline industry.

Air Canada, as a private company, is not legally obliged to carry everyone who wants to fly with them. I don`t think that there is any law, legal standard or precedent where one private party can be forced into a contract with another private party against, it`s will. If Air Canada decides that it doesn`t want to fly you, because the check-in agent does not like the look on your face, they are perfectly entitled to decline your patronage.

The issue is that there is not nearly enough competition in Canada, such that you can reward good service, and likewise, punish bad service.

If there was enough competition, you would be able to make Air Canada suffer by flying with their competitors. If Ottawa hadn`t been interfering with Canadian airlines for decades, you would have had plenty of alternative choices, as we do in the US.

Air Canada is not at fault. Ottawa is. If it was not for the government`s interference, consumers like yourself would be able to vote with their feet and Air Canada would have been forced to treat their customers far better than they do now.

#37 by tahmed32
//...actually muslims are doing quite well the world over ...//

Hmmm... interesting.... Are you sure about this? Because - We see a lot of complaints and horror stories(like this one) from muslims regarding ``profiling``. Paki/muslim media is filled with outrage. A lot of muslims have a feeling that there is a palpable suspicion/hostility towards muslims world over.

And yet - you seem to be convinced that is not the case - it`s just useless whining. Well - I don`t know man - I find it hard to believe you.

+++

Anyway - that still doesn`t explain the racist slurs you threw at the ``elephant god`` and ``sardar at high noon``!!! What was that about?

mohar #39 on the slurs - after 4 years of observing the one indian after another come on chowk tossing unprovoked insults to my country or my people or my religion i dont mind speaking their language i feel like it (read the rubbish written by nikki below about muslims and sikhs which does not seem to both you).

as for what you think the world thinks about muslims: the facts are there for all to see. regardless of the whiners like shahid mahmood and the spiteful little pakistan haters from india. Facts speak louder than words - they dont have politicians (or anyone else) leading the charge to tear down mosques in the west the way the did in India (where Advani led the charge to destroy Babri masjid, and was rewarded by being made the number two man in India). in fact the only person caught so far in the US under the much maligned Patriot Act was a in fact jewish extremist who was threatening to attack mosques in the US (but dont expect either the whining shahids or the spiteful nikkis and jays to understand this). nor do they enter muslim homes in the west and burn down families as they have done openly in india, with a mock trial where witnesses were intimidated by the state government. nor do westerners show up on pakistani websites (like indians) in order to toss insults.

These are clear and simple facts that anyone with an ounce of common sense would recognize. But dont expect the whining shahids and the spiteful jays to understand these either. it gives me no pleasure to say all this, but truth is more important than what i would like to write. i would never have written this when i first came to chowk. but 4 years spent here have been quite educational in understanding the mindset and unwillingness to face reality that seems to be widespread among the ``educated`` babus of india and pakistan.

Dear Chowkies:

I have visited Chowk after a long time (reason: I have migrated to Australia, but am visiting another country poles apart for summers) and would like to post the following message:

1. Read Tahmed32`s various posts and enjoyed them very much, as usual. This was my style when I had joined Chowk, but as he himself admitted, he has learnt about Indians on Chowk after 4 years :-)

2. Romair at # 16: people in Mississauga had told me about two parties thrown by Mr. Wajid and Ms. Parish to thank the Pakistani community. In the party thrown by the latter, liquor was not served since she was advised about the culture. However, in the party of the former, liquor was served and enjoyed with relish. This is just fyi.

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Urstruly#38
That was straight from the heart but you would forgive me if I do not fully agree with you. What you represent is an islamist viewpoint and it is difficult for even other muslims, let alone non-muslims, to agree with it.
In my opinion, the fight so far is not between muslims and the West but between Islamists and neocons in the US. Both are trying to manipulate public opinions to make it a fight between civilisations. The islamists view this as an opportunity to galvanise the ummah into a veritable nation; the neocons into a crusade. In my opinion, the islamists seem to have been more successful in their objective than the neocons. Most of the christian world, even the majority in the US now, does not support Bush`s ``war on terror``, but an increasing number of muslims seem to be sympathetic to the islamist cause, aided no doubt by the draconian measures of the Bush-Blair-bailon-ka-joda.
As of now, I think of Shahid`s problem as my problem, as do most Canadians who are fair-minded people. They want to strike a reasonable balance between the need for security and respecting the rights of individuals. The system seems to work in most cases but it is by no means perfect.

RE: tahmed32
Such hostility. Let`s cut all the crap about what the world thinks about ``whiners, spiteful people, Muslims, Indians, Pakis, Americans, Canadians`` or blue eyed toads for all I care. Tell me my seemingly, ``worldly and most intellectual friend`` how would you go about handling this particular situation. To recap, here are the facts:

1. You have been flagged and refused from boarding a flight.
2. You are refused to board a flight the next day.
3. You are told that from this point on you are to carry a PASSPORT on all domestic flights.
4. You are told that you are on potentially a watch list.
5. You are told under no circumstances are you to visit the United States by your lawyer.
6. You are lied to by Air Canada as to what transpired between you and the desk agents when you write in a complaint.
7. A politician tells you that Air Canada is lying to you and that a call was placed to the RCMP when you tried to board.

I can go on (but that would be whining, right?) - but my challenge to you is to write for me and for the rest of CHOWK on this board (or if you have the writing skills an article on CHOWK) what you would do in this instance. Please don`t resort to the usual namecalling rhetoric - it is quite tiring. I look forward to an intelligent response and hopefully you will surprise me with some useful advice for my particular situation.

Thank-you.

ahmadzai #44: ``In the party thrown by the latter, liquor was not served since she was advised about the culture. However, in the party of the former, liquor was served and enjoyed with relish. This is just fyi.``

I was at Wajid`s party. And yes, a lot of liquor. And a few drunk Pakistanis also.........

ahmedzai #44 Good to hear from you. Congratulations on your move to Australia, and wish you all success in your new land. Glad you enjoyed reading my posts - i certainly had fun writing them.

[#8 by tahmed32 on August 16, 2004 9:57pm PT
* * *
In India they burn you alive in your homes for belonging to a minority religion. ]

And in Pakistan you could receive rain of bombs from your own army? Or killed if you belong to wrong subsect? And if you happen to be a scientist your work not appreciated?

This does not mean that I do not condemn the burnings. Let us just hope that system tracks down the criminals.

IF 9/11 had not happened, I would have done one of two things: on being told I could not go on the connecting flight, I would have asked for a free ticket (as airlines would normally do for passengers with reservations who get bumped) and taken some other airline. If for some reason the airline refused the free ticket I would have written to the airline president demanding compensation and threateing to take them to a small claims court where I would demand not just the free ticket but also additional amount for the hassle (and if the airline, for some strange reason, still refused to pay up, I would have proceeded to take them to court).

That was before 9/11.

Things are a little different after 9/11. Airline security is a major, legitimate concern today. Far better to inconveninece passengers than to get them killed. Nowhere in your article do you demonstrate any understanding for this. If the airline considers you to be a security risk, they have a right and a duty to stop you from boarding the plane. No reasonable judge would consider your complaint valid after 9/11. And as such, if I was in your place I would have simply taken another flight and considered this personal incovenience to be part of the environment we live in today. (I used to travel a lot in the 1980`s and 1990`s, around the globe, and rest assured I could tell you of far worse situations, particularly in developing countries).

Thus, in answer to your question, I would have realized that we were not living in normal times after 9/11 and would have simply taken another flight. Canada, like other democracies, is going through a very difficult time where it tries to match public security with individual liberty.

And yes, I wrote in a hostile manner for a good reason. Your entire article is concerned with your rights as a canadian national, and there is not an iota of concern for the legitimate airline security concerns after 9/11. I consider it appalling and highly irresponsible on your part that you can write an entire article without demonstrating any concern for these serious underlying reasons. If all canadians (or US for that matter) demonstrated this irresponsible attitude, canada (or US or any other western countries) would be reduced to conditions in Pakistan or any other third world country where public safety and terrorist bombings etc. gets back seat to political ambitions.

Now, please surprise ME by either finding some reasonable basis for rejecting my conclusion in the last para. above, or else surprise me by agreeing with what I have written and being man enough to accept that your article reflects an irresponsible mindset that you need to grow out of.

Canadians are arrogant. They brag about how in contrast to USA they are more diversity friendly. Their ``Permanent Residence`` process makes it sound as if they are just like USA a land of opportunity. But facts are opposite. There is more racism in Canada as compared to USA. And for every IT job in Canada there are more than 10 IT jobs in USA. On west coast in Canada I could not find a single IBM Mainframe job. I was there in Victoria for 7 months.

Shahid Mahmood.
This is very scary. What is even worse is the fact that they still have not told you why they singled you out. Did you talk to any lawyers about this?

I can`t believe that people are accusing you of whining etc.

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[#40 by mchowdry on August 17, 2004 12:29pm PT
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If Air Canada decides that it doesn`t want to fly you, because the check-in agent does not like the look on your face, they are perfectly entitled to decline your patronage. ]

But what happens if Canada has given you the citizenship? What do they expect except may be some hot headed muslim will plot in future to requisition 19 into 72 houris? And take out two towers?

Either Shahid is citizen or he is not. At least he is entitled to transperency of this flagging process. Is it the name? Then may be he should carry his portfolio of cartoons and an additional ID signed by his employers. I mean there should end to his troubles if it is merely name. Or if some real info in some secret dossier in CIA files? Then he should be able to challenge it.

RE: #48, Tahmed32
Sorry...don`t see any intelligence in your reply. It seems you don`t really understand
the point of the article nor are you addressing the points I brought up in Post #46.
I really have nothing more to say to you.
Thank-you.
Shahid

shahid: That is the most obvious cop-out I have seen on chowk.

The fact is that you dont have anything more to say because you are unwilling to accept the plain and simple fact I pointed out: namely that airline travel is harder now due to legitimate security concerns. And incidents like yours are neither uncommon. You would much rather wallow in self-pity because they bumped you off the plane.

It`s a little upsetting to see people getting hostile with the author for what seems to be an absolutely legitimate concern. Nobody has a right to offload passengers just because they think (s)he might be aterrorist. At the most they can glare at them with suspicion, ask em to strip down to their socks, poke probes into their bum if needed, or do a full body x-ray. Admittedly, the victim of such treatment may be more than a little miffed, but surely one can eventually rationalise it in the name of the ``airline`s legitimate security concerns``.

But this? Being offloaded while your wife is allowed to board- what sense does that make? Not being allowed to board a flight at all? Being forced to rent a car and add hours to one`s travel time, not to mention the emotional duress it causes? People today live on tight schedules as it is, with wafer thin margins for error. What if he was travelling on business and lost an important deal because of this? Or there was a family emergency and he was unable to make it on time?

All this is bad enough as it is, but in a truly developed, liberal country like Canada, it is ultra shocking. Without sounding petty about it, I`m fairly sure this sort of thing would never happen in India. This is a classic case of the system taking over and replacing good old fashioned common sense, something which is fast becoming a subcontinental preserve (and we`re the better for it!)

Shahid has every right to be offended and even whine about it. The madness has gone on long enough. Let common sense prevail!

I would like to re-iterate that I do not understand the fuss that Shahid makes about being denied boarding. This has nothing to do with his record as a journalist/cartoonist, his views and his ideals. This is pure and simple fact, howsoever politically incorrect or unappetising it may be.

Let me try to explain this better:-

a) Is it because he as a human being was denied boarding without being assigned a valid enough reason?
Well, nothing new, this happens all the time all over the world, especially within our part of the world, as anybody who has seen ``labour class`` being pushed around at a vast variety of airports between Dammam and Dhaka and points therein will re-confirm.

b) Is it because he as an English speaking upper middle-class person with access to the media was denied boarding without being assigned a valid reason?
Well, post 9/11, nothing new here either. And frankly, if it happens to some of us once in a way, well, in the larger interest, grin and bear it. Focus on getting your work done.

c) Is it because he as an English speaking upper middle-class person of a particular colour and religion was denied boarding without being assigned a valid reason?
Well, my Lahore-Delhi and Dammam-Kuwait (or Riyadh-Jeddah) example still holds good. So what if political borders were re-drawn, the example still holds true. This happens all the time, too. To Shahid as well as to Shyam and also to Sherman, surely to Shlomo.

d) Is it because he as a Canadian citizen was denied boarding without being assigned a valid reason?
Well, maybe he needs to go back and read some more about the Komagata Maru, for example. These sort of things have always happened in Canada, much as our Canadian friends would have us believe otherwise.

e) Is it because he as all of the above was denied boarding on racist grounds?
Well, what else is new? Probably the only immigreants who had it easy were the Brits when they walked all over the Native, what else, Indians. Now move on to to the brit denied Germans, who fingered the Italians, and so on and so forth. Canada holds the distinction for denying free passage and entry, and returning to origin, to a boatload of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany in 1938. Please read up on the history and tradition of migration into Canada.

Yes, Ally, does a leopard change his spots that easily?

Great countries in North America, no doubt, but reality checks kicking into place. Beware of doors that may close without warning.

veeresh#58:
``d) Is it because he as a Canadian citizen was denied boarding without being assigned a valid reason?
Well, maybe he needs to go back and read some more about the Komagata Maru, for example. These sort of things have always happened in Canada, much as our Canadian friends would have us believe otherwiseeeresh:``

We are no longer in 1906. I think that you need to update your history book:). The grandchildren of Kamagata Maru are now lawmakers and prominent ministers in Canada. And this has happened because of people like Shahid Mahmood who fought for their rights and not merely grumbled and bore it.

Shahid has every right to fight for his rights. If I read him correctly, he is not questioning Air Canada`s right to screen him or even to flag him. But he wants to know why he has been flagged and why he is being discriminated against. In doing this he is fighting for others also who may be treated in the same manner but never complain. We have an Access to Information act in Canada which gives one the right to know what`s contained on him in govt. files.
I do hope that Shahid has the fortitude to take this complaint to the highest level until his grievance is redressed.


mchowdhry#40:
``If Air Canada decides that it doesn`t want to fly you, because the check-in agent does not like the look on your face, they are perfectly entitled to decline your patronage. ``

This is news to me. I had assumed that as a federally chartered corporation and the one heavily subsidised by the Canadian taxpayer, Air Canada would be subject to the Canadian Human Rights Charter which prohibits discrimination on various specific grounds.

Tahmen # 48 and other posts before that,

In berating this author and other interactors, whose negative attitude is irritating at the least, You have got it right again. Thanks for trying to put some sense into these dumbos...

Too bad you and hamidm don`t see eye to eye ;-)

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Ref Mullah32 #8

[Then thank your lucky stars that you live in Canada. In Canada they bump you off aeroplanes for security reasons. In India they burn you alive in your homes for belonging to a minority religion.]

In India persons of a MINORITY religion also burn you in trains if you belong to the MAJORITY religion. In return, the people of the majority religion burn the folks of the minority religion.

Just setting the record straight. We wouldn`t want recent history forgotten, would we?

PS. Would your post be representative of the quality of the textbooks your father used to publish?

Dost Mitter

I am also surprised to see your response; and that after seeing the 9/11 commission report? The commission`s report makes it official that America is at war with a malignant ideology called Islam and what is at helm of this ideology is wahabism. Now ironically, the only wahabi state in the whole Muslim world is the staunchest ally of Americans. For an ordinary American now it is wahabi of the sunni triangle, and wahabi of shia south, and wahabi in europe that is trying to kill him. It is confusing enough for adherents of Islam, what to talk about an American whose usual response would be ` ah its too confusing for me, lets have six pack and fukk`. Of course it is evangilist neo-con agenda where mindless capitalist vultures are also seeing an opportunity to make money. You should see Fahrenheit 9/11 where when Us gov. is making a case to the gathering of fortune 500 company delegATES, and the guy is making a case that they should support this war not because their country is under threat but there is a hell lot of money to be made - the kind of money that is beyond their wildest imagination. It is all on record - no Islamist propaganda there. So what if some American has a pang of conscience and he starts asking his government why it is waging a war on 1/5th of humanity, or are we really stealing the wealth of these people, or are you really trying to convert middle east into a hellhole in the hope that Jesus will only come then? Then the the US government has a ready made answer - ``no we are doing this because these people have a bad religion``. After 9/11 commission report it is official now. I am surprised.

Urstruly#62:
I am more in agreement with this post than your earlier one.
Although the US think tanks have the best experts that money can buy, the American public is by and large quite ignorant. I remember the time when the Iranian revolution took place. At that time, Shias were made out to be the fanatic muslim fundamentalist sect while Saudis were the proponent of a more moderate wahabi sect. And if Saudis are to be blamed for the rise of fundamentalism in the muslim world, and I think that they can rightly be held responsible for financing madrassahs and mosques more to their liking, then the process did not start with 9/11 and had been going all along when the americans considered them their most trustworthy ally. The truth is that Americans did not care about islamic fundamentalism until it affected them and even encouraged it against Pan Arabism of Nasser as long as the godless commies were the common enemy. And if the islamists ignore the US and its partner, israel, in the middle east, america will ignore them too.
The security of energy is important to the US. But as I said in my earlier post, this is a non-issue as oil will keep flowing as long as its owners need the cash for it. The problem, however, is the interest of the US corporations. And here Moore is right on the money.

dost mittar #59 you seem very concerned about shahid`s rights. What about his responsibilities to the canadian community he lives in as I pointed out? His irresponsible attitude is clear to me from the way in which he first challenged me to point out where he is wrong - and then brazenly ignored the response I provided and simply ducked out.

harimau #60 you write ``In return, the people of the majority religion burn the folks of the minority religion.``

Behold the mindset of the terrorist.

Repeat after me you bloody minded numbskull: ``Killing innocent people is wrong``. ``Giving excuses for the killing of innocent people is wrong``.

When I referred to the killings of muslim families in Gujerat, I was doing that in the context of comparison with the thing this article is complaining about. By your logic, in retaliation for 9/11 muslim-Americans should have been burnt in their homes while the police looked on. Instead, ordinary Americans went out of their way to make muslims feel safe (I say this from first hand experience, and the same is true for countless other muslims in America). This is the difference between a civilized nation and a nation that has ``educated`` people like you.

Your post is clear proof that a man can get college education and be materially well off and still never get rid of the sewer mindset he was raised in.

avkrishna #64

Thanks for the support, and glad to see people like you and Ahmedzai lurking. Someone needs to keep some of the rest of these fellows on chowk honest. ;-)

As for hamidm, havent seen him around in a while on chowk (maybe he is on one of the other threads). I do differ from him in some ways (but then, dont we all!), but must admit the man used to come up with some great lines.

Dost Mitter

Hence, I think we are in agreement that this is going to be a long and unpredictable war regardless of who takes charge of American Presidentship. As in any war, the various other options, especially the political ones, have disappeared now. If the resistance wins, it means America will have to evcuate the whole middle east and along with them the whole cadre of puppet regimes will collapse. And if Americans ``win``, it means that Muslims will be subjugated for another millenia and will be reduced to second class citizens with limited rights in the future globalized world (which is already happening). This is a no-win situation for any side. In the course of this war, thus the constitutional rights of people like Shahid will be trampled upon slowly but surely. Every time the war will step to the next level they will be cornered even more. What is now starting as the trampling of constitutional rights will turn into quarantines ( already happening), forced deportations (already happening), and ultimately extermination a la Trebilinka style. Even in countries like Canada, Musilms, like Shahid, who were born and bred here are already being told to carry their passports all the time. So is the time just around the corner when Muslims will be told to sew a crescent on their front pockets? The sensitivities of the people are being slowly and scientifically being conditioned to accomodate these eventualities. One has to listen to American right wing radio for half an hour to come to that conclusion - and they call madrassas the hate factories.

I as an individual citizen of this world find myself helpless. Because of the nature of my work I travel in and out of country more than anyone in this forum, I can bet. Whenever I ride a plane the first idea that strikes my mind is that there are some people out there who are trying to blow me up regardless of who I am. Who are these poeple. What do they want? Why they want to kill me and my family. I want to know. I cannot know what drove them to this madness by bombing them. I have to talk to them. Who is talking to them on my behalf?

#60 by harimau

Aren’t you the same guy, who has been cheer leading the RRS brigade in their new found piece of history about Prophet Mohammed and his six years old wife, concubines and houris?

Now mention of elephants hurts you!

If you prefer to discuss somebody’s father on this board, it is very much possible that some would find it okay to discuss your female family members. Are you game for that too?

Ref HP #68

[Aren’t you the same guy, who has been cheer leading the RRS brigade in their new found piece of history about Prophet Mohammed and his six years old wife, concubines and houris?]

Prophet Mohammad`s (PBUH) 6-year-old wife is NOT new-found history by the RSS. Muslim historians have documented that Ayesha was 6 years old when Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) married her. Even they only argue that the marriage was not consummated until later (like around 9 or 12 years of age), as if that absolves Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) of the crime of child molestation.

[Now mention of elephants hurts you!]

Either you lack comprehension or you make connections where none exists. Mullah32 pointed out that in India people get burnt to death in their homes for the crime of belonging to a minority religion. I merely pointed out that the Gujarat riots were the direct result of the burning of the train carrying Hindu pilgrims at Godhra, a fact that you Islamic thugs never mention and the hand-wringing apologetic Hindus do not want to remember in their haste to bend over forward to be nice to Islamic thugs.

[If you prefer to discuss somebody’s father on this board, it is very much possible that some would find it okay to discuss your female family members. Are you game for that too?]

The reference to Mullah32`s father was NOT gratuitous nor was it remotely suggestive. Mullah32 had long ago mentioned how his father got into the textbook publishing business after his migration from India to Pakistan. So any comment I made is in context (though it might be obtuse to pathetic peabrained idiots like you). I don`t understand why a reference to a textbook would trigger strange thoughts in your mind unless it is because you associate that with incidents in your schooldays about which we at Chowk don`t want to know and don`t care to speculate. On the other hand, talking dirty about any interactor`s female relatives seems to be the specialty of Pakistanis when they cannot refute their opponent`s arguments and have nothing useful to say.

tahmed
//...indian after another come on chowk tossing unprovoked insults to my country or my people or my religion i dont mind speaking their language i feel like it ..//

So the indians made you do it - indians forced you to use bigoted words and racist slurs. Is that it?

Come on man - how far are you going to stretch the ``Indian Boogeyman``?

At some point - you got to assume some responsibility for your own actions, your country`s actions and your religion`s influence.

harimau #70 you write ``The reference to Mullah32`s father was NOT gratuitous nor was it remotely suggestive. Mullah32 had long ago mentioned how his father got into the textbook publishing business after his migration from India to Pakistan.``

You are a bigger fool than I thought. My father was never in the textbook publishing business. If you wish to prove you are not a fool, go and find any post from me where I say this.

(as for referring to me as mullah rather than my nick - you probably think you are being very clever. That would be true if you were a kindergarten kid, you blood-minded half-brained little man).

mohar #69 Your post clearly implies that you hold me to a far higher standard of behavior than the one you (in the past, although recently I see you have tried to change and I am waiting to see how long this lasts) or countless countrymen of yours have demonstrated even on this very board (e.g. to take an extreme case, harimau`s justification for the state sponsored murder of innocent Indian muslims in Gujrat on this board does not get any attention from you.).

I would be flattered by this sincere demonstration of the high standard of conduct on which you place me IF I did not consider individuals like harimau to be beneath contempt anyway. Now you can rush to deny this is the case - but actions speak louder than words. ha! ha!

mchowdhry#40:
``If Air Canada decides that it doesn`t want to fly you, because the check-in agent does not like the look on your face, they are perfectly entitled to decline your patronage. ``

This is news to me. I had assumed that as a federally chartered corporation and the one heavily subsidised by the Canadian taxpayer, Air Canada would be subject to the Canadian Human Rights Charter which prohibits discrimination on various specific grounds.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I did not know that Air Canada was still receiving tax-payer`s funds. If this is the case, you are right. They can not deny boarding indiscriminately.

My original conclusion still stands. If Air Canada had been left to the mercy of the free market, as opposed to enjoying government favoritism, it`s quality of service would be far higher than it is right now.

This problem has been created by foolish politicians in Ottawa.

#34 by dost-mittar on August 17, 2004 10:19am PT
Well said!!! I have tried to explain this here but to no avail. Keep up the good work.

#72 by tahmed32
//...I see you have tried to change ...//

I have never made racist comments against anybody, at anytime - so there is no change really. What might have changed is the fact you are reading the issues more carefully.

About holding you to ``high standards`` - yes of course .... because that`s implicit in your own arguemnts.... Since you are accussing Indians about all sorts of sins, naturally you must take care not to commit the same sins yourself. If you do then you basically defeat your own argument. And all your accusations on Indians becomes hollow and meaningless.

So it`s up to you really.

Urstruly:
Are you really an optimist?
My agreement with your previous post was wrt Moore`s film and how the american media hid the facts from americans, the role of the oil barons and their links and those of the key Bush people with the Saudi royals including Bin Laden family. As regards to the nature of this ``war`` I had clarified my disagreement with you. I do not believe that this is a war of the west. Why do you look at the negatives only? Didn`t you notice that very few countries agreed to side with Bush in his coalition of the increasingly unwilling ``willing``? Haven`t you noticed that even in the countries whose govts. were bribed into participation, the overwhelming sentiments of the citizens are against this war? So, this is not the civilisational war, so please let`s not make it one.
What`s the way out? This is indeed the question being asked by everyone. I think that the Americans were on the right track when they said that the key to the middle east peace lies in the resolution of the Palestinian ``nasoor``. Unfortunately, they did not keep their eye on the ball and let Aaron shred the roadmap developed by the four countries and agreed in general by both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Unfortunately, I am not very hopeful of any solution any time soon.
The more relevant question is what can someone like you do? I think people like you -namely muslims in the non-muslim world- should present a softer interpretaion of your religion, something that tahmed32 has been trying to do regardless of whether or not that is a correct interpretation. That is the kind of non-confrontational interpretation calling jihadis to be not true muslims is what is needed for survival in the pluralist societies in which we live. Also, we should do whateve we can to ensure that the christian right does not gather more political clout than it has in the US.

tahmed32:
I do not know what responsibilities shahid is not fulfilling. Is he hiding any terrorists or supporting them? As far as I am concerned, he is fulfilling his responsibilities as a citizen by ensuring that the integrity of the Canadian charter of rights is maintained.

this just shows that for all the hue and cry for canada being a great nation and following a clean foreign policy etc, all it is, is uncle sam`s b!tch. a mere data-base from US seems to trigger suspention of human right (is flying a human right?).

i blame al-queda for bringing us to this sad juncture. and not just muslims (of urstruely kind) but whole humanity will be set back by a millenium the way the things are going.

mophar #75 So you never made racist comments against anybody, you say. Facts are just a few clicks away, and here are a couple of gentlemanlike statements I pulled from you. I challenge you to pull anything that comes even close to this from any of the quadzilion posts i have written in 4 years. As I said, I would be flattered at being held to a far higher standards than you (until perhaps a couple of months ago) or many of your countrymen who show up on chowk. :-)

Never made a racist comment indeed! Knowing you, I am sure you will find another excuse for what you wrote below and keep arguing - but as for me I am through with my discussion with you. bye bye.

``your bloodline started when a bunch smelly mughal soldiers on their way to battle decided to have a little fun with your great-great-.....-great-grand-mother(she was hindu). They gang-r@ped her and thus your great-great...grand papa was born. Voila - your bloodline started. All of you pakis are born that way. Product of r@pes of hindu women. ``

and

````See - that is the real, pure red-blooded pakistani for you. He is the wolf in wolf`s skin. He doesn`t play games like other pakis do ... you know - shedding crocodile tears ... mouthing sweet words ... writing volumes about friendship with hindus ... at the same time dropping money in to Jihad donation boxes that will be used to kill hindus. ``

And I didnt have to go too far into your past to dig these gems out (April 6 2004, scholarly discussionns ``murder on helm street``)

Dost Mittar: I think I made clear what these responsibilities are, but let me repeat it - an understanding of the hightened security concerns after 9/11 which led to Shahid M. being bumped off the plane. Nowhere is this reflected in the article.

Dost Mitter

You have misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make through out my many posts was that the issue of profiling, detentions, deportations and inhuman torture of Muslims in prisons, all are just tangential issues. The real issue is the war. Now call it a war of civilizations, or war on terror, or war on colonial agression, an uprising against imperial occupation, a Jihad or a crusade, the point is that there is something going on that has upset the whole world from Norh America to Japan. What is that these two people fighting for. We have to find that out. We must stop this war and this war cannot stop until we find a political solution to the problem. A war by definition is the ultimate mean to reach a political solution. But do we know what the political problem is?

dost-mittar/59, sirji, who is denying Shahid his rights? All I am stating is that

1) there is nothing new about his ongoing whining about being denied his basic rights. It happens all over the world, and it will continue happening, to vast groups of people. For the purposes of this article, let us say it shall happen to people from the sub-Continent who have certain kinds of surnames.

2) just because it is Canada does not mean that there is no history or tradition, past or present, of discrimination or denial of rights. Just the players change sides now and then, and re-write history to suit themselves, and it is strange that you put forth the argument that in the case of Canada, their shady past needs to be ignored or condoned?

3) by stating that his wife was permitted because she was not of Pakistani origin, and broadening that to include the sub-Continent, Shahid brings out the perception that it was his ``origin`` which caused the denial. Well, Shahid should know that being denied boarding/entry/free passage, these are not new things for people like us from the sub-Continent.

If Shahid had, in all his writings and cartoons, even once taken up the case of laborers and other poor people being denied boarding and worse all over the world, then I would have understood his predicament vis-a-vis the Canadian authorities.

But here, he expects me as a reader and inter-actor to have sympathy for him on an individual basis? What does he think, we are so naive?

Let Shahid take this forward as part of a larger group with a larger worldview. Maybe you as an economist can add by stating your views on the economics of the whole thing.

But it cannot sound as though an English speaking middle class WOG in Canada, after years in Pakistani media, has suddenly discovered truth as applying to him alone.

Something like that happened to Gandhiji in South Africa over a century ago, and he took on the Empire on behalf of everybody, not just for himself. That`s where I am coming from. If we all have to draw inspiration from history, look there. Gandhiji was best of breed advocate, but who did he fight for when he woke up to see his truth?

veeresh #81 your post makes good sense until the end - Gandhi was kicked out of the first class compartment in the south african railways at the turn of the last century because of racial segregation. Shahid was bumped off the flight because of hightened security concerns after 9/11. Big difference, since racial segratation is unjustified while security concerns stem from the right of self-defense of every human and every society and is fully justified.

tahmed32/82 - sirji, my usage of the Gandhiji/South Africa example was used because it is similar to what Shahid chose to imply . . . that he (Shahid) was denied boarding in Canada on grounds of a name/religion/colour/previous nationality, which links to a particular religion/race/colour. Racial discrimination, Security concern, Religious segregation?

q1) For all:- If it was only about security concerns, then, with all due respects, how far back in history do we go in Canada or USA? Why just to 9/11? Should everybody from Oklahoma also be denied boarding?

q2) Specifically for Shahid as a mediaperson:-If it was only about being denied boarding on grounds of background, then why complain only about Canada? Look closer home? How many people of Pakistani - or sub-Continenal - origin are ``denied boarding`` or worse on a daily basis in friendly neighbouring countries? And, after all that, simply vanish? Where are your whines about them?

Which is also what I tried to explain when I said the Canadian officials must be having a great laugh. I mean, here is a person unwilling to defend or complain about his own ``back home``, but whining about something less offensive in Canada?

veeresh:
On q1) how does oklahoma slip into this? you mean there is a danger from refugees from the oklahoma dust bowl of the 1930`s coming to canada via a time machine and hijacking planes? or maybe there is a danger of 19 little old ladies getting onto planes and forcing the passengers to knit sweaters?? when it comes to matters of life and death (which is what aircraft security is about), you dont fool around with hurting someone`s (even a world famous cartoonist like shahid m.) feelings.

On q2) now this is a good question.

tahmed32/84 - Reference to Oklahoma was aimed at those trying to justify a stricter post 9/11 scenario at airports based on background and profiling.

Much before Pakistanis and ex-Pakistanis became khatta-meetha pickle of choice for matters pertaining to aviation, the FBI was going around questioning people at the Airman Flying School in Norman, Oklahoma. This was 1996-1998, and pertained to trainee pilots (Philipino) Abdul Hakim Murad and another pilot identified only as Osama Bin Laden`s pilot.

veeresh #85 actually on looking at it again, your q2 below is NOT a very good one - desis were never ``denied boarding`` in pre-9/11 days based on nationality (keep in mind that airlines are there to make money). instead, desis (and indeed third world people generally) were ``denied entry`` to countries when they tried to get in by breaking their rules(i.e. by showing up without visas), which is a totally different thing. in the 1960`s in fact, most european countries including germany did not require any visas from pakistanis (and presumably other third world nationalities) at all - all that changed when large numbers started to go to these countries in the 1970`s and started settling down. airlines thus started to check for visas as well. my elder brother (who was a student in germany back then) used to make some extra money by acting as interpreter and had some interesting stories to tell - like the fellow who the german police thought had gone on hunger strike in jail after being caught for illegal entry to germany - but (as he explained in panjabi to my brother) the problem was they were serving him meat which he was sure was not halal. so my brother suggested they change his diet to some fine german bread and vegies and everybody was happy.

thanks very much for nothing, shahid. i asked what flagging is-i now have some idea. you have every right to complain.

tahmed32/86 - I could provide you with anecdotes by the ice-cream barrel full (butterscotch) about language issues abroad in the pre-visa days . . . but hey, for a moment . . . why do you assume I am only talking about boarding denied for getting into non-3rdworld countries?

Boarding denied for any reason, entering or leaving, and the countries I mentioned pertain to points between and near Dammam through Dhaka.

veeresh:
I am afraid we have some disagreements here.
``1) there is nothing new about his ongoing whining about being denied his basic rights. It happens all over the world, and it will continue happening, to vast groups of people.``

I do not know about the world but it did not happen in Canada in recent past. As long as one had proper documents, entry was allowed. Even if one did not have proper documentation, one only had to utter the magic word ``refugee`` and entry was ensured.

``2) just because it is Canada does not mean that there is no history or tradition, past or present, of discrimination or denial of rights.``

Yes, there is but the society is trying to correct historical wrongs, to the extent of special measures, such as an apology to Japanese Canadians for their treatment during the War and of native people for depriving them of their land and cultural rights.

``3) by stating that his wife was permitted because she was not of Pakistani origin, and broadening that to include the sub-Continent, Shahid brings out the perception that it was his ``origin`` which caused the denial. Well, Shahid should know that being denied boarding/entry/free passage, these are not new things for people like us from the sub-Continent.

If Shahid had, in all his writings and cartoons, even once taken up the case of laborers and other poor people being denied boarding and worse all over the world, then I would have understood his predicament vis-a-vis the Canadian authorities.``

Are you suggesting that one must be a flagbearer of others` problems to earn the right to stand up for his rights? If so, you are setting up a much higher standard of morality than I do.

``Let Shahid take this forward as part of a larger group with a larger worldview. Maybe you as an economist can add by stating your views on the economics of the whole thing.``

It`s for Shahid to decide whether he wants to fight for himself or for all downtrodden. One can always look for an economic angle in anything but I prefer to see it as a human rights issue and not that of cost-benefit.

``Something like that happened to Gandhiji in South Africa over a century ago, and he took on the Empire on behalf of everybody, not just for himself. That`s where I am coming from. If we all have to draw inspiration from history, look there. Gandhiji was best of breed advocate, but who did he fight for when he woke up to see his truth?``

Once again, if one is not a Gandhi, one shouldn`t complain? Surely, I am missing something. In any case, Gandhiji was in violation of the law of the land, howsoever unjust the law might have been. Shahid, on the other hand, did not break any law and if he did, he has not been told about it.

To me, the issue is simply one of his right to know why he was flagged. I think that this society has, generally, gone overboard in protecting the rights of the individual versus protecting the society, such as privacy laws, parole rules, unanimous jury decisions, etc. But in the name of security, some basic rights are being trampled with. Even our justice minister, Ian Cotler, has said that these rules need to be looked into. And he, by the way, is a prominent leader of the Canadian Jewish Congress.

Urstruly:
``We must stop this war and this war cannot stop until we find a political solution to the problem.``

...and what`s the problem? Injustices in the world? Was there ever a time when there was no injustice in the world? But these did not result in a ``civilisational`` war.
No, my friend, it is your turn to own up to your part of the responsibility for what`s going on. While one can understand the resistance being put up by Iraqis, Palestinians and others directly affected by an event, it is the tendency of those not directly affected by those events to jump into the fray -not as members of the UN, Arab League or even OIC but as individuals to blow themselves up, which is causing these huge problems to millions of innocent people like Shahid Mahmood. So, why not deal with the ideology that encourages such behaviour?

Now, you can go ahead and call me a ``sarkaari gawah`` for being able to see both sides of the issue.

DM

what ideology you are talking abo