An Urgent Appeal to all Pakistanis
Syed Ali August 18, 2004
#77 Posted by teshah on August 29, 2004 5:29:45 pm
Urstruly
Thank you for calling me `Maluk hori` in a typical Attocky dialect but excuse me I am not `Maluk` but a born `Shah` with a status of a `Faqeer`. I may also point out that you are not right in saying that Ustad Imamdin had no Deewan. He did have a Deewan titled `Baange Duhul` on the patern of `Baange Daraa` of Allama Iqbal and it was no less an authority than the Allama himself who gave the title of `Ustad` to Imamdin. In the introduction to the Deewan of Ustaad the writer (I don`t remember his name) had compared the Ustad with Ghalib and Goete, etc., etc., and had challenged the distractors of Ustad to produce a single couplet to match the poetry of the Ustad. However, none has been able to do so to this day.
dost-mittara
Dost -mittar has taken exception to the language used by the Ustad. He seems to be an alien to the Punjabi laguage and culture. An Ajmi would feel the same about the Arabic language which is full of the words `lun` and `lullah` but these words do not mean what an Urdu or Punjabi speaking Ajmi would think. How paradoxical it may seem the Muslims carry out their physical Islamization on phallus but are ashamed to mention it in public. The Hindus, however, worship it openly as ‘Shiv Ling’. Strange as it may seem if God had been Punjabi-speaking he could have said ‘Lun waikh mera’ instead of ‘Lun tarraani’ in Arabic as the word ‘lun’ means the same, i.e., ‘never’ in both these sentences .
Thank you for calling me `Maluk hori` in a typical Attocky dialect but excuse me I am not `Maluk` but a born `Shah` with a status of a `Faqeer`. I may also point out that you are not right in saying that Ustad Imamdin had no Deewan. He did have a Deewan titled `Baange Duhul` on the patern of `Baange Daraa` of Allama Iqbal and it was no less an authority than the Allama himself who gave the title of `Ustad` to Imamdin. In the introduction to the Deewan of Ustaad the writer (I don`t remember his name) had compared the Ustad with Ghalib and Goete, etc., etc., and had challenged the distractors of Ustad to produce a single couplet to match the poetry of the Ustad. However, none has been able to do so to this day.
dost-mittara
Dost -mittar has taken exception to the language used by the Ustad. He seems to be an alien to the Punjabi laguage and culture. An Ajmi would feel the same about the Arabic language which is full of the words `lun` and `lullah` but these words do not mean what an Urdu or Punjabi speaking Ajmi would think. How paradoxical it may seem the Muslims carry out their physical Islamization on phallus but are ashamed to mention it in public. The Hindus, however, worship it openly as ‘Shiv Ling’. Strange as it may seem if God had been Punjabi-speaking he could have said ‘Lun waikh mera’ instead of ‘Lun tarraani’ in Arabic as the word ‘lun’ means the same, i.e., ‘never’ in both these sentences .
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#76 Posted by wajahat on August 27, 2004 7:31:52 am
From an Article in The Friday Times
``Tongues are also wagging on the performance, or the lack thereof, of Adil Siddiqui. The minister has been implicated in a balloting scandal of industrial plots in the SITE area and the details have been published by newspapers in Karachi. But the most powerful condemnation has come from Ardeshir Cowasjee.
The word was leaked by Nazim Haji, former president of the Citizen Police-Liaison Committee (CPLC). Even government sources acknowledge that “irregularities” have been committed in the balloting and allotment of plots. Cowasjee’s only fault was that he raised the issues in his columns and being a supporter of General Pervez Musharraf told him in good faith that “all is not clean” in his (Musharraf’s) government.
This got Siddiqui going. To stop Cowasjee from writing about the SITE balloting issue, Siddiqui allegedly threatened Haji. “I believe the issue has been taken up by the MQM leadership and Adil has been called to London,” Haji told TFT.
Official sources say the Sindh cabinet took up the issue and Siddiqui was asked to explain his position. He is reported to have told his colleagues that some newspapers had started a vilification campaign against him. “He asked the government to take up the issue with these publications,” an insider told TFT.
Later, one of the Urdu publications published a story claiming Siddiqui had asked the government to slap a ban on these publications. This story was later published in an English newspaper and also found its way into Cowasjee’s column.
When TFT contacted the Sindh information advisor, Salahuddin Haider, he denied Adil Siddiqui had demanded a ban on the offending newspapers in any cabinet meeting. “No such demand has ever been made,” Haider told TFT. “Siddiqui merely expressed his reservations over the campaign against him in some newspapers. We have complaints against these publications but will take up the matter with the APNS [All Pakistan Newspapers Society],” he said.
MQM in the past has had strained relationship with the press particularly in the early 90s when it did not allow a mainstream English newspaper to be distributed in the city. However, it changed its policy in the late 90s and even praised the media’s role during the army and police operation against it (MQM) from 1992 to 1996.
The newspapers the MQM had targeted because they exposed its unbecoming and violent conduct also played a major role in exposing the excesses of the establishment when it moved against the MQM and began to bump off its activists extra-judicially. “The party realised that the newspapers it thought were against it were merely doing their job honestly. That has been an important lesson for it,” says an analyst.
He adds: “Adil Siddiqui has every right to challenge any news, take a newspaper to court if he thinks he has been wronged but he has no right to threaten any newspaper or writer.”
Observers are agreed that while the MQM may be riding a high tide just now, it is never out of danger. ‘This is the time for it [MQM] to establish itself as a genuine, non-violent political force. But what the two Siddiquis are doing is not the best way to promote that image,” says one.``
``Tongues are also wagging on the performance, or the lack thereof, of Adil Siddiqui. The minister has been implicated in a balloting scandal of industrial plots in the SITE area and the details have been published by newspapers in Karachi. But the most powerful condemnation has come from Ardeshir Cowasjee.
The word was leaked by Nazim Haji, former president of the Citizen Police-Liaison Committee (CPLC). Even government sources acknowledge that “irregularities” have been committed in the balloting and allotment of plots. Cowasjee’s only fault was that he raised the issues in his columns and being a supporter of General Pervez Musharraf told him in good faith that “all is not clean” in his (Musharraf’s) government.
This got Siddiqui going. To stop Cowasjee from writing about the SITE balloting issue, Siddiqui allegedly threatened Haji. “I believe the issue has been taken up by the MQM leadership and Adil has been called to London,” Haji told TFT.
Official sources say the Sindh cabinet took up the issue and Siddiqui was asked to explain his position. He is reported to have told his colleagues that some newspapers had started a vilification campaign against him. “He asked the government to take up the issue with these publications,” an insider told TFT.
Later, one of the Urdu publications published a story claiming Siddiqui had asked the government to slap a ban on these publications. This story was later published in an English newspaper and also found its way into Cowasjee’s column.
When TFT contacted the Sindh information advisor, Salahuddin Haider, he denied Adil Siddiqui had demanded a ban on the offending newspapers in any cabinet meeting. “No such demand has ever been made,” Haider told TFT. “Siddiqui merely expressed his reservations over the campaign against him in some newspapers. We have complaints against these publications but will take up the matter with the APNS [All Pakistan Newspapers Society],” he said.
MQM in the past has had strained relationship with the press particularly in the early 90s when it did not allow a mainstream English newspaper to be distributed in the city. However, it changed its policy in the late 90s and even praised the media’s role during the army and police operation against it (MQM) from 1992 to 1996.
The newspapers the MQM had targeted because they exposed its unbecoming and violent conduct also played a major role in exposing the excesses of the establishment when it moved against the MQM and began to bump off its activists extra-judicially. “The party realised that the newspapers it thought were against it were merely doing their job honestly. That has been an important lesson for it,” says an analyst.
He adds: “Adil Siddiqui has every right to challenge any news, take a newspaper to court if he thinks he has been wronged but he has no right to threaten any newspaper or writer.”
Observers are agreed that while the MQM may be riding a high tide just now, it is never out of danger. ‘This is the time for it [MQM] to establish itself as a genuine, non-violent political force. But what the two Siddiquis are doing is not the best way to promote that image,” says one.``
#75 Posted by echoboom on August 25, 2004 1:04:06 pm
Margaret-Thatcher`s son and his equally corrupt mommy who aids and abets her criminal sonl.
No wonder the Pakis feel proud that such behaviour is very `progressive` and `modern` because the `goraas also do it`.
The goraagoochaaters.
english.aljazeera.net.
Please note that this is the CORRECT and genuine aljazeera site. The imperialists and thugs (the westerners) are trying to hoodwink the superior civilisations by a fraud site called aljazeera.com [ BEWARE of their such kind of history of theft called : `discovery`` and ``invention` credit]
again:
The genuine site in english is
english.aljazeera.net
Do not put www before english.
No wonder the Pakis feel proud that such behaviour is very `progressive` and `modern` because the `goraas also do it`.
The goraagoochaaters.
english.aljazeera.net.
Please note that this is the CORRECT and genuine aljazeera site. The imperialists and thugs (the westerners) are trying to hoodwink the superior civilisations by a fraud site called aljazeera.com [ BEWARE of their such kind of history of theft called : `discovery`` and ``invention` credit]
again:
The genuine site in english is
english.aljazeera.net
Do not put www before english.
#74 Posted by dost_mittar on August 25, 2004 6:47:17 am
dionysus#71:
Thanks for the entire poem!
You are right, I got my info. about Ustad Daman from Pakistani sources; very few people know about him in India, except for some Punjabi nationalists.
In my opinion, he could still be regarded as ``muslim nationalist`` in the pre-partition parlance. The concept of Punjabi nationalism didn`t exist then, unless you can call the jat-coalition of Hayat-Chotu Ram (a haryanavi!) as Punjabi nationalism. As you are aware, before 1947, the question was one of dividing India. Muslims who were against the Muslim League and partition were all lumped as nationalists.
Thanks for the entire poem!
You are right, I got my info. about Ustad Daman from Pakistani sources; very few people know about him in India, except for some Punjabi nationalists.
In my opinion, he could still be regarded as ``muslim nationalist`` in the pre-partition parlance. The concept of Punjabi nationalism didn`t exist then, unless you can call the jat-coalition of Hayat-Chotu Ram (a haryanavi!) as Punjabi nationalism. As you are aware, before 1947, the question was one of dividing India. Muslims who were against the Muslim League and partition were all lumped as nationalists.
#73 Posted by ballukhan on August 23, 2004 6:24:29 am
I really find it hilarious when one praises the journalists for their ``balanced`` views about the Dictator. What the heck is wrong here! You have a dictator here who decides who shall rule and who shall not rule- what the country`s policies should and should not be. By God, atleast be honest and accept that you all are $hit scared to criticize him publically! Atleast say truthfully that you are afraid that the ISI would come knocking at your doors in the midnight if you speak against the General in public!
Acknowledge that your columns may not praise the General explicitely and you would prefer to remain silent co-conspirators in this rape of PAkistani constitution!!
And how dare does the General addreses the journalists in the Press conferences as if they are school boys!! That man has the guts to threaten the press and yet get away with it in Pakistan because most of the journalists write ``balanced`` (politically correct) columns about the Dictator and his policies!
Acknowledge that your columns may not praise the General explicitely and you would prefer to remain silent co-conspirators in this rape of PAkistani constitution!!
And how dare does the General addreses the journalists in the Press conferences as if they are school boys!! That man has the guts to threaten the press and yet get away with it in Pakistan because most of the journalists write ``balanced`` (politically correct) columns about the Dictator and his policies!
#72 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 23, 2004 6:24:29 am
oops sorry - that should have read dont waste your knowledge ON me -- (not being sarcastic there by the way)
#71 Posted by dionysus on August 23, 2004 6:24:14 am
#64 Dost mittar
Ustad Daman was NOT a Muslim Nationalist. He was as secular as they come and remained so even after the creation of Pakistan. If he was a nationalist at all, he was Punjabi nationalist who opposed the partition of Punjab, something which got him into a lot of trouble after the creation of Pakistan. The poem you quote is a very famous one and was addressed to Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs of West Punjab who migrated to Delhi. The story about his alleged rapport with Nehru has only ever come from some Pakistani sources. I don`t know how true it is. And I find it hard to believe he would have any warm feelings for a man responsible for dividing his country. His bitterness against Nehru (along with Jinnah and Gandhi) for carving up Punjab between Pakistan and India and his sadness at Punjabis for allowing it are very much apparent in this poem (``Jaagan Waliaan Nay Ruj Kaye Lot-yaa Aye, Soo-aye Tusee Wi O, Soo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n ``). And he railed against Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for signing the Simla pact with Nehru`s daughter, Indira Gandhi.
Anyway, here is his masterpiece in its entirety:
Bha`n-wain Moo-hoon Na Kahyae, Pur Wichoon Wichee
Khoo-aye Tusee Wi O, Khooaye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Aya-naan Azaadian Huthoon Barbaad Hoona
Hoo-aye Tusee Wi O, Hoo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Ko-jh Ommeed Aye, Zind-agee Mil Ja-aye Gi
Moo-aye Tusee Wi O, Moo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Joondi Jan Aye, Mot Dai Moo-nh Undar
Dhoo-aye Tusee Wi O, Dhoo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Jaagan Waliaan Nay Ruj Kaye Lot-yaa Aye
Soo-aye Tusee Wi O, Soo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Lali Akhiaa`n Dee Pay-ee Dus-di Aye
Roo-aye Tusee Wi O, Roo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n.
Ustad Daman was NOT a Muslim Nationalist. He was as secular as they come and remained so even after the creation of Pakistan. If he was a nationalist at all, he was Punjabi nationalist who opposed the partition of Punjab, something which got him into a lot of trouble after the creation of Pakistan. The poem you quote is a very famous one and was addressed to Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs of West Punjab who migrated to Delhi. The story about his alleged rapport with Nehru has only ever come from some Pakistani sources. I don`t know how true it is. And I find it hard to believe he would have any warm feelings for a man responsible for dividing his country. His bitterness against Nehru (along with Jinnah and Gandhi) for carving up Punjab between Pakistan and India and his sadness at Punjabis for allowing it are very much apparent in this poem (``Jaagan Waliaan Nay Ruj Kaye Lot-yaa Aye, Soo-aye Tusee Wi O, Soo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n ``). And he railed against Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for signing the Simla pact with Nehru`s daughter, Indira Gandhi.
Anyway, here is his masterpiece in its entirety:
Bha`n-wain Moo-hoon Na Kahyae, Pur Wichoon Wichee
Khoo-aye Tusee Wi O, Khooaye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Aya-naan Azaadian Huthoon Barbaad Hoona
Hoo-aye Tusee Wi O, Hoo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Ko-jh Ommeed Aye, Zind-agee Mil Ja-aye Gi
Moo-aye Tusee Wi O, Moo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Joondi Jan Aye, Mot Dai Moo-nh Undar
Dhoo-aye Tusee Wi O, Dhoo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Jaagan Waliaan Nay Ruj Kaye Lot-yaa Aye
Soo-aye Tusee Wi O, Soo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n
Lali Akhiaa`n Dee Pay-ee Dus-di Aye
Roo-aye Tusee Wi O, Roo-aye us-ee Wi Aaa`n.
#70 Posted by ferozk on August 23, 2004 2:06:20 am
re: Omar R. Qureshi
You said, `` dont waste your knowledge of me feroz sahib...``
???
Ciao
You said, `` dont waste your knowledge of me feroz sahib...``
???
Ciao
#69 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 22, 2004 11:45:12 pm
romair: your points are well -taken -- im quite surprised why so many pakistani interactors seem to ridicule -- it could be that in the company of mad men/women a sane man/woman
is thought to be insane
ana: omar #48.
it takes more of an effort for me to read your posts than not to read them, and since i don`t anymore, except for the unavoidable glance at #48, i would suggest that you refrain from addressing posts to me. it`s a waste of your editorial and educator genius. thank you!
ana -- u suffer from a persecution complex perhaps? acha how about this? should be succinct enough: please grow up ana.
there -- hope that wasnt too much of a bother to read -- will try and use mono syllables for you next time (hope there won`t be a next time though :)
ferozk sahib -- i dont think i would miss the sarcasm -- dont waste your knowledge of me feroz sahib -- i know ilahi bux`s family quite well -- he is a bit old for me to hang around with --
kkkandk -- why thank you -- well open invitation for you, whenever you`re in karachi, to drop by the dawn office --
is thought to be insane
ana: omar #48.
it takes more of an effort for me to read your posts than not to read them, and since i don`t anymore, except for the unavoidable glance at #48, i would suggest that you refrain from addressing posts to me. it`s a waste of your editorial and educator genius. thank you!
ana -- u suffer from a persecution complex perhaps? acha how about this? should be succinct enough: please grow up ana.
there -- hope that wasnt too much of a bother to read -- will try and use mono syllables for you next time (hope there won`t be a next time though :)
ferozk sahib -- i dont think i would miss the sarcasm -- dont waste your knowledge of me feroz sahib -- i know ilahi bux`s family quite well -- he is a bit old for me to hang around with --
kkkandk -- why thank you -- well open invitation for you, whenever you`re in karachi, to drop by the dawn office --
#68 Posted by dost_mittar on August 22, 2004 8:27:58 pm
echoboom#67
Thanks for your kindness.
``yahaaN tO eik bhee dhanG kaa daryaa naheeN.``
Shayad aap toronto ki baat kar rahe hain. Hamare haan tau Mashallah bahut barha Ottawa darya hai. In fact, looking at it, we cant even complain ``Ram teri ganga mailee``.
As for cultures, I rather like Gandhi`s approach, namely, keep the doors closed and the windows open; as far as the next generation is concerned, it is impossible to keep even the doors closed.
``Aaee zanjeer kee aavaaz, khudaa khair kray`` was indeed a beautiful marsiya-type song, sung by a new singer introduced by Khyaam whose name I now cannot recall. His deep, melodious voice touched your soul. It is only in the bizaare world of Bollywood that such talent will remain untilized even after being discovered.
Thanks for your kindness.
``yahaaN tO eik bhee dhanG kaa daryaa naheeN.``
Shayad aap toronto ki baat kar rahe hain. Hamare haan tau Mashallah bahut barha Ottawa darya hai. In fact, looking at it, we cant even complain ``Ram teri ganga mailee``.
As for cultures, I rather like Gandhi`s approach, namely, keep the doors closed and the windows open; as far as the next generation is concerned, it is impossible to keep even the doors closed.
``Aaee zanjeer kee aavaaz, khudaa khair kray`` was indeed a beautiful marsiya-type song, sung by a new singer introduced by Khyaam whose name I now cannot recall. His deep, melodious voice touched your soul. It is only in the bizaare world of Bollywood that such talent will remain untilized even after being discovered.
#67 Posted by echoboom on August 22, 2004 10:01:14 am
Dost_mittar:65
Anyway echoboom, for a product of Ganga-Jamni tehzeeb, your knowledge of Punjabi is really admirable:-).
Dost-mittar:
mitar pyaaray: Haal gareebaaN da kehnRaa.
Uzeez itnaa hee rakHho kay dil behal jaaey
Ub iss qadar bhee na chaaho kay ``duum``* nikl aey`
*instead of ``dUm nikal jaaey``--my attempt at humor.
ajee huzzat humaiN do-aaba kaa ta`naa daitay ho yaa tohmat lagaatay ho. ajee aisee izzat afzai kay quabil hUm kahaaN. Paanch-aab phir bhee doaab pur tO bhaari huay naaN? Mgr bhalaa ho kay Paanch-aab vaaloN ko ubb naee syaasee haqeequatoaN ko tasleem krtay huay khud ko seh-aab yaa Teen-aab (west P) aur Dooh-aab (east P) kehaty sharm aatee hai.
SarhadaiN zameen per khinchtee haiN diloaN mein naheeN. Diloan kee srhad khinchnaiN ko scar yaa clot kehtay haiN or phir by-pass hee by-pass hai.
Issi liyay Iqbal naiN zameenee taa`luque sey pehchaan kee nafee kee thee , vrnaa Panjabi aur Canada meiN? Cheh maani? yahaaN tO eik bhee dhanG kaa daryaa naheeN. Mgar thheek hee tO hai--zubaan kis franGee ney pakRRee hai, bhanGRRay per kiss kaa zoar hai, saag mkhaan kaun chheen saktaa hai. Aur phir Nanak tO nanak hee hai naa? Neverland bound.
Buss aisaa hee kuchh humaara taaluque hijaaz, arab, sey hai--uss zameen sey naheeN Islami tehzeeb sey. ``kissi kaa dard ho krtay haiN ``uss`` kay naam raquam``
HaaN jahaaN jahaaN hUm ney paRRaO dalaa uun mehrbaanoaN kee zubaan, khaanaa; aur libaas ko bhee upnaya--mehz unkee muhabbat meiN. Vrnaa angraiz bahadur kee tarah unn ko hUm upnay rang meiN naa ruNg laitay?
Ustaad Daman:
Considering the literary ``standard`` of `modern` times, may I suggest that Ustaad Daman was way `modern` for his times. It is just that our `tolerance` standards are also frangee-defined.
``Aaee zanjeer kee aavaaz, khudaa khair kray``
Anyway echoboom, for a product of Ganga-Jamni tehzeeb, your knowledge of Punjabi is really admirable:-).
Dost-mittar:
mitar pyaaray: Haal gareebaaN da kehnRaa.
Uzeez itnaa hee rakHho kay dil behal jaaey
Ub iss qadar bhee na chaaho kay ``duum``* nikl aey`
*instead of ``dUm nikal jaaey``--my attempt at humor.
ajee huzzat humaiN do-aaba kaa ta`naa daitay ho yaa tohmat lagaatay ho. ajee aisee izzat afzai kay quabil hUm kahaaN. Paanch-aab phir bhee doaab pur tO bhaari huay naaN? Mgr bhalaa ho kay Paanch-aab vaaloN ko ubb naee syaasee haqeequatoaN ko tasleem krtay huay khud ko seh-aab yaa Teen-aab (west P) aur Dooh-aab (east P) kehaty sharm aatee hai.
SarhadaiN zameen per khinchtee haiN diloaN mein naheeN. Diloan kee srhad khinchnaiN ko scar yaa clot kehtay haiN or phir by-pass hee by-pass hai.
Issi liyay Iqbal naiN zameenee taa`luque sey pehchaan kee nafee kee thee , vrnaa Panjabi aur Canada meiN? Cheh maani? yahaaN tO eik bhee dhanG kaa daryaa naheeN. Mgar thheek hee tO hai--zubaan kis franGee ney pakRRee hai, bhanGRRay per kiss kaa zoar hai, saag mkhaan kaun chheen saktaa hai. Aur phir Nanak tO nanak hee hai naa? Neverland bound.
Buss aisaa hee kuchh humaara taaluque hijaaz, arab, sey hai--uss zameen sey naheeN Islami tehzeeb sey. ``kissi kaa dard ho krtay haiN ``uss`` kay naam raquam``
HaaN jahaaN jahaaN hUm ney paRRaO dalaa uun mehrbaanoaN kee zubaan, khaanaa; aur libaas ko bhee upnaya--mehz unkee muhabbat meiN. Vrnaa angraiz bahadur kee tarah unn ko hUm upnay rang meiN naa ruNg laitay?
Ustaad Daman:
Considering the literary ``standard`` of `modern` times, may I suggest that Ustaad Daman was way `modern` for his times. It is just that our `tolerance` standards are also frangee-defined.
``Aaee zanjeer kee aavaaz, khudaa khair kray``
#66 Posted by echoboom on August 22, 2004 10:01:14 am
dost-mittar:64
But philosophically he was far removed from both of you.
Faiz ahmad Faiz and maulana abul-ala maudoodi were good friends. In fact at one time they were together in Jail and both could have been sentenced to death. There, Faiz & he studied Qura`an together. Faiz turned out to be Faiz because of his madressa education under Maulvi Meer Hasan; who also taught Iqbal.
It is this kind of ``understanding`` which is lacking among most of us today.
But philosophically he was far removed from both of you.
Faiz ahmad Faiz and maulana abul-ala maudoodi were good friends. In fact at one time they were together in Jail and both could have been sentenced to death. There, Faiz & he studied Qura`an together. Faiz turned out to be Faiz because of his madressa education under Maulvi Meer Hasan; who also taught Iqbal.
It is this kind of ``understanding`` which is lacking among most of us today.
#65 Posted by dost_mittar on August 22, 2004 7:10:01 am
PS to #64: But he never used language like ``kise vichon maan yawaii ae``.
#64 Posted by dost_mittar on August 22, 2004 7:08:25 am
echoboom, urstruly:
Ustaad Daman was really a great poet of the masses. His simple language and vivid imagery connected him immediately to the common man. But philosophically he was far removed from both of you. He was a muslim nationalist whose house in Lahoe was destroyed by muslim leaguees during the partition. Soon after, he read this poem at a Delhi Kavi Darbar:
Jaagan valiaan raj ke lutya ae
Soye tusi vi au, soye asi vi aan
Laali akhiyaan di payi das-di ae
roye tusi vi au, roye asi vi aan [what a beauty!]
In fact Nehru wanted him to stay on in Delhi but he could not think of leaving Lahore, and said,``main ravaanga Lahore vich bhaanvein jail vich ravaan``.
But I dont think that he wrote ``meri tut-di kise naan vekhi``. This is one of the two popular punjabi songs I remember from the partition days, the other being ``aithon ud jaa bholya pachchiya, ve tu apni jaan bacha``.
And I dont think that Shiv Batalvi is famous for ghazals. He is more famous for his souleful poems like ``Bhatti vaaliye`` and ``aj din chadya tere rang varga``.
Anyway echoboom, for a product of Ganga-Jamni tehzeeb, your knowledge of Punjabi is really admirable:-).
Ustaad Daman was really a great poet of the masses. His simple language and vivid imagery connected him immediately to the common man. But philosophically he was far removed from both of you. He was a muslim nationalist whose house in Lahoe was destroyed by muslim leaguees during the partition. Soon after, he read this poem at a Delhi Kavi Darbar:
Jaagan valiaan raj ke lutya ae
Soye tusi vi au, soye asi vi aan
Laali akhiyaan di payi das-di ae
roye tusi vi au, roye asi vi aan [what a beauty!]
In fact Nehru wanted him to stay on in Delhi but he could not think of leaving Lahore, and said,``main ravaanga Lahore vich bhaanvein jail vich ravaan``.
But I dont think that he wrote ``meri tut-di kise naan vekhi``. This is one of the two popular punjabi songs I remember from the partition days, the other being ``aithon ud jaa bholya pachchiya, ve tu apni jaan bacha``.
And I dont think that Shiv Batalvi is famous for ghazals. He is more famous for his souleful poems like ``Bhatti vaaliye`` and ``aj din chadya tere rang varga``.
Anyway echoboom, for a product of Ganga-Jamni tehzeeb, your knowledge of Punjabi is really admirable:-).
#63 Posted by ferozk on August 21, 2004 11:48:25 pm
re: Omar R. Qureshi
I am glad that you noted the sarcasm. I was afraid that you might miss it. To be honest, it is very hard to be sarcastic on Chowk without sounding rude.
As to Somooro, I believe that he was jailed in 1975 over a difference with Bhutto and after a patch up between the two, was nominatated to represent Pakistan in London. He is a delightful gentleman of the old school (who also used to keep a fridge full of Swiss chocolates which I used to indulge in liberally).
Ciao
I am glad that you noted the sarcasm. I was afraid that you might miss it. To be honest, it is very hard to be sarcastic on Chowk without sounding rude.
As to Somooro, I believe that he was jailed in 1975 over a difference with Bhutto and after a patch up between the two, was nominatated to represent Pakistan in London. He is a delightful gentleman of the old school (who also used to keep a fridge full of Swiss chocolates which I used to indulge in liberally).
Ciao
#62 Posted by echoboom on August 21, 2004 12:26:13 pm
Urstruly:
great posts--re: Ustaad Daaman.
To ``corrupt`` a shair by Iftikhar Arif, and apply it in Panjabis context.
``Urdu`` kee muhhabbat meiN hUm aashuftaa sroaN neiN
voh qarz utaaray haiN , jo vaajib bhee naheeN thhay.
Faiz ruefully expressed his `impotence` about writing in Panjabi. When prodded by Major Ishaque he said how possibly he could write like Ustaad Daman who was so firmly rooted in the heart of the language.
He gave an example;`` How in any other language can one express thus``-
`Miri luGGdee kisay naa vaikhee
tai tuTTdee nooN juG jaOndaa.`
My favourites: ``Udeekna`` ``pabbiaaN p`aar``. .
In my well considered opinion the Panjaabi of Pakistani-Panjaabi is more expressive and poetic , Shiv Batalvi notwithstanding. In fact it is his ``Ghazal`` ethos rather than ``geet`` which has given him ``stature``.
great posts--re: Ustaad Daaman.
To ``corrupt`` a shair by Iftikhar Arif, and apply it in Panjabis context.
``Urdu`` kee muhhabbat meiN hUm aashuftaa sroaN neiN
voh qarz utaaray haiN , jo vaajib bhee naheeN thhay.
Faiz ruefully expressed his `impotence` about writing in Panjabi. When prodded by Major Ishaque he said how possibly he could write like Ustaad Daman who was so firmly rooted in the heart of the language.
He gave an example;`` How in any other language can one express thus``-
`Miri luGGdee kisay naa vaikhee
tai tuTTdee nooN juG jaOndaa.`
My favourites: ``Udeekna`` ``pabbiaaN p`aar``. .
In my well considered opinion the Panjaabi of Pakistani-Panjaabi is more expressive and poetic , Shiv Batalvi notwithstanding. In fact it is his ``Ghazal`` ethos rather than ``geet`` which has given him ``stature``.
#61 Posted by kkkandk on August 21, 2004 12:26:13 pm
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#60 Posted by ana on August 21, 2004 10:42:12 am
a lot of pakistanis in pakistan proper are, if i may borrow from wajahat and add a word, ``are frustrated by the limitations of what we can or cannot do in knowledge of events in our OWN homeland, as well.
cowasjee is read by expats, and homebounds, and this appeal should have been to of us pakistanis, not just the expats. i know the title reflects this, but the appeal doesn`t necessarily do as such. khair, i think we all got the message.
also let it be understood, that our feelings for cowasjee aside, for a minister, or anyone who claims to have so-called power, to bully someone is not acceptable. men and women in pakistan are incredibly clueless as to what power is, when they abuse it as they are in cowasjee`s case, and when they`ve abused it time, and time, and time again. cowasjee, bless him, still has his voice. and he has many vocal supporters and friends. will this appeal for him also be for the many whose voices and lives are threatened and taken away from them? those who don`t have the friends (and expat support) that cowasjee does?
i think it`s overly optimistic to think that our voices will have any effect on the federal government. . . a federal government some of us feel has no legitimacy to begin with. . . but that isn`t any reason not to voice our concerns. the government in pakistan, much less the embassies have not represented ALL of us for quite some time now. phir bhi. . .``tum apni kar guzro, jo hoga dekkha jayega`` as faiz said.
omar #48.
it takes more of an effort for me to read your posts than not to read them, and since i don`t anymore, except for the unavoidable glance at #48, i would suggest that you refrain from addressing posts to me. it`s a waste of your editorial and educator genius. thank you!
wajahat #50
thank you for putting me in my place. and i mean that most humbly and sincerely. :) i read (read: listened) to what you said here in the spirit that it was offered. and i agree.
cowasjee is read by expats, and homebounds, and this appeal should have been to of us pakistanis, not just the expats. i know the title reflects this, but the appeal doesn`t necessarily do as such. khair, i think we all got the message.
also let it be understood, that our feelings for cowasjee aside, for a minister, or anyone who claims to have so-called power, to bully someone is not acceptable. men and women in pakistan are incredibly clueless as to what power is, when they abuse it as they are in cowasjee`s case, and when they`ve abused it time, and time, and time again. cowasjee, bless him, still has his voice. and he has many vocal supporters and friends. will this appeal for him also be for the many whose voices and lives are threatened and taken away from them? those who don`t have the friends (and expat support) that cowasjee does?
i think it`s overly optimistic to think that our voices will have any effect on the federal government. . . a federal government some of us feel has no legitimacy to begin with. . . but that isn`t any reason not to voice our concerns. the government in pakistan, much less the embassies have not represented ALL of us for quite some time now. phir bhi. . .``tum apni kar guzro, jo hoga dekkha jayega`` as faiz said.
omar #48.
it takes more of an effort for me to read your posts than not to read them, and since i don`t anymore, except for the unavoidable glance at #48, i would suggest that you refrain from addressing posts to me. it`s a waste of your editorial and educator genius. thank you!
wajahat #50
thank you for putting me in my place. and i mean that most humbly and sincerely. :) i read (read: listened) to what you said here in the spirit that it was offered. and i agree.
#59 Posted by Romair on August 21, 2004 7:47:17 am
Omar_R/HP#: Some of the Pakistani editorials and feature writers are actually quite good. Amongst these, I have been reading Ayaz Amir, Cowasjee, Sethi, Nasim Zehra, Mazdak, Khaled Ahmad, Ejaz Haider, Kamran Shafi, Shahid Javed Burki, Biran Cloughley etc. for a long long time. I don`t think I have missed a single one of their articles in many years.
My favorites are Ayaz, Cowasjee, Sethi and Zehra and Burki. The ones I don`t like are Kamran Shafi, and Khaled Ahmad. The one I find somewhat ordinary are Ejaz Haider and Mazdak.
My views about Pakistan fall, about in line, with Ayaz and Cowasjee`s (on politics) and Burki`s (on economics). I actually have exchanged emails with Ayaz Amir. None of these guys specifically like nor dislike the Army or civilians. They comment on what is going on, and whether it is good or bad. That is what they are supposed to do. If Musharraf does something good, they say it is good, if he does something bad, they say so also. Ayaz supported Musharraf for three years, and now opposes Army rule (ever since the election), and is neutral towards Musharraf. Cowasjee supports Musharraf throughout Cowasjee, probably because of what Musharraf has done for the minorities. Burki was critical of Shaukut Aziz`s economic policies in the begining, but is now fully behind them.
The last thing a writer should do is to, ``like`` or, ``hate`` something and then just start giving one-sided opinions. I would put Kamran Shafi and Khaled Ahmad in this category. Kamran Shafi was in the Army, and then became a senior member of the PPP. He dislikes the Army and loves BB and PPP. And all his articles generally fall in this category. Khaled Ahmad dislikes mullahs. Hence nearly everything he writes is about Islam, using mullahs as the criteria for goodness and badness. In addition, he seems to portray himself as an intellectual (I am not sure on what basis).
Ayaz Amir and Cowasjee know Pakistan much better than the rest of us. Ayaz was in the Army, then in foreign service (?), then in journalism and then in politics. He is the only writer I have read who actually understands the Army. His critiques are thus objective and accurate. In addition, he is not gora-influenced. His comments are specifically Pakistan-centric. He has critiqued Musharraf and supported him. He is critiqued mullahs and supported them. And he has critiqued the politicians and supported them. In addition, he was an MPA from the PML, under Nawaz. And then resigned, because he got fed up with NS and his govt. Perhaps the only MPA ever to do that in ten years. However, when everyone dumped NS, he still remained with PML(N) and fought elections, under their banner. And unlike the rest of us, he still lives in his hometown of Chakwal.
Cowasjee is a Parsi, and ex-big businessman, and someone who knows everyone from Jinnah to Musharraf. His knowledge of Pakistan and its internals is bound to be great.
All of the above, actually like Musharraf. At least, moreso than than liked any other leader. They have openly stated it. Sethi was saved from NS`s tortures by Musharraf, who refused to prosecute Sethi, when Sethi was kidnapped from his bedroom, by NS and Mushahid Hussain. Sethi, in an editorial, ranked the current govt. better than all previous ones, though still needing a lot of improvement.
All of them above are, however, against the Army`s involvement in politics, at this point. They do seem to want Musharraf as a civilian President. They don`t like BB nor NS. The only excepiton being Kamran Shafi, who belongs to PPP. Interestingly, Sethi is the editor of a newspaper, Daily Times, which is owned by a PPP stalwart. However, he is generally supportive of a civilain Musharraf.
No editor or writer can ever be credible and objective, if they start from a personal premise of hating or opposing something. One sees this on Chowk, a lot. Those who dislike mullahs cannot see anything good in anything they do. Those who hate Indians, cannot see anything good in anything India does. Ditto for Army, secularism etc.
One should always write based on what is going on. For example, I opposed Zia`s govt., even though I was in the military then. I supported Musharraf`s and will continue to do so (assuming he retires in December), even though I am a civilian now. I think mullahs are a disaster, but I will support them over BB and her feudals. And I support TI type honest non-feudal/on-military/non-mullah govts over military, feudal and mullah govts.
It has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes. It has everything to do with what I think they will do for Pakistan, in comparison to other options, within the environment of Pakistan. As long as this is the critiria and the comments are based on facts, one cannot criiticize any writer for supporting or opposing the Army, or the maulvis or peace with India or war with India, or religion or secularism etc.......And I think the list of writers I presented (other than Khaled and Kamran) do use this as a criteria............
My favorites are Ayaz, Cowasjee, Sethi and Zehra and Burki. The ones I don`t like are Kamran Shafi, and Khaled Ahmad. The one I find somewhat ordinary are Ejaz Haider and Mazdak.
My views about Pakistan fall, about in line, with Ayaz and Cowasjee`s (on politics) and Burki`s (on economics). I actually have exchanged emails with Ayaz Amir. None of these guys specifically like nor dislike the Army or civilians. They comment on what is going on, and whether it is good or bad. That is what they are supposed to do. If Musharraf does something good, they say it is good, if he does something bad, they say so also. Ayaz supported Musharraf for three years, and now opposes Army rule (ever since the election), and is neutral towards Musharraf. Cowasjee supports Musharraf throughout Cowasjee, probably because of what Musharraf has done for the minorities. Burki was critical of Shaukut Aziz`s economic policies in the begining, but is now fully behind them.
The last thing a writer should do is to, ``like`` or, ``hate`` something and then just start giving one-sided opinions. I would put Kamran Shafi and Khaled Ahmad in this category. Kamran Shafi was in the Army, and then became a senior member of the PPP. He dislikes the Army and loves BB and PPP. And all his articles generally fall in this category. Khaled Ahmad dislikes mullahs. Hence nearly everything he writes is about Islam, using mullahs as the criteria for goodness and badness. In addition, he seems to portray himself as an intellectual (I am not sure on what basis).
Ayaz Amir and Cowasjee know Pakistan much better than the rest of us. Ayaz was in the Army, then in foreign service (?), then in journalism and then in politics. He is the only writer I have read who actually understands the Army. His critiques are thus objective and accurate. In addition, he is not gora-influenced. His comments are specifically Pakistan-centric. He has critiqued Musharraf and supported him. He is critiqued mullahs and supported them. And he has critiqued the politicians and supported them. In addition, he was an MPA from the PML, under Nawaz. And then resigned, because he got fed up with NS and his govt. Perhaps the only MPA ever to do that in ten years. However, when everyone dumped NS, he still remained with PML(N) and fought elections, under their banner. And unlike the rest of us, he still lives in his hometown of Chakwal.
Cowasjee is a Parsi, and ex-big businessman, and someone who knows everyone from Jinnah to Musharraf. His knowledge of Pakistan and its internals is bound to be great.
All of the above, actually like Musharraf. At least, moreso than than liked any other leader. They have openly stated it. Sethi was saved from NS`s tortures by Musharraf, who refused to prosecute Sethi, when Sethi was kidnapped from his bedroom, by NS and Mushahid Hussain. Sethi, in an editorial, ranked the current govt. better than all previous ones, though still needing a lot of improvement.
All of them above are, however, against the Army`s involvement in politics, at this point. They do seem to want Musharraf as a civilian President. They don`t like BB nor NS. The only excepiton being Kamran Shafi, who belongs to PPP. Interestingly, Sethi is the editor of a newspaper, Daily Times, which is owned by a PPP stalwart. However, he is generally supportive of a civilain Musharraf.
No editor or writer can ever be credible and objective, if they start from a personal premise of hating or opposing something. One sees this on Chowk, a lot. Those who dislike mullahs cannot see anything good in anything they do. Those who hate Indians, cannot see anything good in anything India does. Ditto for Army, secularism etc.
One should always write based on what is going on. For example, I opposed Zia`s govt., even though I was in the military then. I supported Musharraf`s and will continue to do so (assuming he retires in December), even though I am a civilian now. I think mullahs are a disaster, but I will support them over BB and her feudals. And I support TI type honest non-feudal/on-military/non-mullah govts over military, feudal and mullah govts.
It has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes. It has everything to do with what I think they will do for Pakistan, in comparison to other options, within the environment of Pakistan. As long as this is the critiria and the comments are based on facts, one cannot criiticize any writer for supporting or opposing the Army, or the maulvis or peace with India or war with India, or religion or secularism etc.......And I think the list of writers I presented (other than Khaled and Kamran) do use this as a criteria............
#58 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 21, 2004 6:16:51 am
hp -- ok you`re right -- no one should be compared to that nut -- the PPL takeover was by ayub khan and the papers taken over died one by one mostly by the 80s , except the pakistan times which is now owned if im not wrong by the jang group -- so army papers are not around these days -- not since those days anyways -- the papers that are read -- the ones owned by the haroons, the jang group and the nawai waqt group are not army run papers by any stretch of the imagination --
hp: ``You also would know that for long time Pakistan Times was the only English newspaper in Punjab and other newspapers were not allowed any declaration until the Nawiawaqt group, another pro Army group then, was allowed to start the Nation.`` -- yes of course but i was talking more about the present, the past decade or so up till now to be precise --
hp: ``It is whole lot easier to write about Pakistan’s foreign policy. It is a different story when newspapers take a shot at the army for denying people their civil rights including the screwing up with the constitution at will. `` -- again read editorials by the TFT, DT, Nation and Dawn and u will find severe criticism of the current military govt -- also pretty scathing article by asma jehangir on the tharparkar byelection in todays dawn -- also recent editorial on presenting our softer face and another on okara farms directly criticizing the army govt -- also herald and newsline extremely critical too -- this is to set the record straight --
``I was referring to the so called elite in the newspapers who get to travel with every President, PM and then some more foreign trips that are arranged for them regularly.`` -- ok point taken but these are very few and much of the journalists community knows them and dislikes them -- in many cases they end up doing favours for their proprietors or themselves -- again, speaking from my own example, the editor routinely refuses requests by PID or the information ministry to send correspondents on overseas travel -- the rule is that if anyone has to be sent then it must be at the editor`s discretion -- of course im not saying that the freeloaders that u speak of arent there -- and most of them come on PTV or even the private TV channels more often than in the english print media (and perhaps more in the urdu press)
and now this hp: ``How many editorials by Dawn can you quote that have denounced the army for illegal coups and messing with the constitution? ``
this list would go into the hundred or thousands because (and this i say only since u asked) -- the newspaper`s consistent policy (at least since zia`s rule) has been to criticize military takeovers and to call for democratic rule -- and this policy is unambiguous and not passive by any means -- you can read the editorials yourselves and judge for yourself -- i am amazed by this remark -- i think a lot of people tend to criticize without first reading whats been written
since u specifically mention this, here is the editorial that came on august 14 -- u can judge for yourself how much praiseworthy or otherwise it is of the current govt hp sahib --
Need for national consensus
The nation today celebrates its fifty-seventh independence day in a mood that is far from cheerful and optimistic. There is a lack of direction and commitment, and a country founded by a constitution a list like Mohammad Ali Jinnah finds itself languishing under a quasi-democratic dispensation.
The National Security Council, constituted through a bill enacted with the support of a section of the opposition, has subordinated the elected civilian leadership to the military`s whims, thus weakening the concept of the sovereignty of the people and negating the essence of democracy.
The underlying assumption behind the formation of the NSC - that the military knows what is best for the nation - is fallacious. Our politicians have not exactly lived up to the Quaid-i-Azam`s ideals; indeed when they have been in power they have often trampled democratic norms and weakened democratic institutions.
But there is nothing to suggest that military rulers have done any better either. As history shows, periods of chaos have followed military rule, because the generals left behind them systems that did not have the people`s consent.
Thus the constitutional schemes devised by Ayub Khan and the arbitrary amendments to the 1973 Constitution by Ziaul Haq could not last long because neither believed in participatory democracy.
The constitution made by Ayub Khan relied on indirect election to parliament and was abrogated when he lost power, while in the case of Ziaul Haq it was left to his protege, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to repeal Article 58-2(b) that empowered the president to dissolve an elected parliament and government.
Both Ziaul Haq and two of his predecessors - Mr Ghulam Ishaq Khan and Mr Farooq Leghari - made arbitrary use of this clause. Today, we are confronted with the same question: will the arbitrary changes made to the Constitution through the Legal Framework Order last when the present set of generals is gone?
One feature of military governments has been the persecution of parties and politicians not on their side. Ziaul Haq persecuted the PPP and the Bhutto family and patronized sycophants and time-servers; this government has kept both the PPP and the PML-N out in the cold and pampered those who are willing to collaborate with it.
This has sidelined the two mainstream parties, thus forcing the generals to rely on the religious parties, whose support to the military regime has been grudging and based on expediency.
The LFO itself owes its inclusion in the Constitution to the support of the religious parties in a deal that neither side now looks like honouring. More unfortunately, while accusing the politicians of being corrupt and unprincipled, the military itself has shown a lack of scruples.
Nothing illustrates this better than the way the accountability process has been conducted - favourites have been forgiven and inducted into the government, while those not falling in line have had their due share of trials and jail terms.
All this has served to weaken the regime`s moral standing and contributed to a lack of national consensus not just on the political system but on all major facets of national life.
Events since 9/11 have turned the world`s focus on Pakistan, our internal scene is monitored abroad the way no other country`s is. Yet chaos, uncertainty and a lack of consensus on all vital issues - from the need or otherwise of big dams to terrorism - characterize the domestic scenario.
The monster of terrorism stalks the land, and yet the government`s handling of this highly sensitive issue has been controversial. The Wana operation especially has drawn strong criticism, because the government has not tried to take all parties along.
The same situation informs matters like the implications of Pakistan`s membership of the World Trade Organization, the lack of substantial local and foreign investment, the failure to initiate a dialogue with Baloch groups, and the question of troops for Iraq.
All these issues need to be discussed and debated threadbare in the National Assembly. Uncertainty still surrounds the president`s decision to retain his uniform. On many other questions agitating the public mind, progressive legislation has been wanting.
No law has yet been framed to abolish karo-kari and honour killings, and no progress has been made with regard to amendments to the Hudood and blasphemy laws. A point has come when more important than harking back to what the founding fathers had said is to develop a national consensus on all issues of concern.
What we need from all those who matter - political parties, intellectuals, ulema, civil society groups and the military itself - is unambiguous dedication to democracy and the rule of law.
We have to sit together and decide what we wish to be - a parliamentary democratic state or a quasi-democracy. We have to agree on how far we want religious forces to shape our domestic and foreign policies. We have already wasted five decades in dithering over our sense of direction; further delay will have even graver repercussions.
hp again: ``You seem to quote Ayaz Amir a lot. Isn’t this the same guy who wrote against every single civilian govt. in Pakistan and wasn’t he the one who was among the first ones to welcome the army coup in 1999? ``
err yes he did initially -- he has written against all govts, civilian and military -- have u read him now -- specifically over the past three years -- have u read any of aqil shah`s articles on the army -- or any by i a rehman (tho he hasnt written in dawn that much) or by m. ziauddin (ocassionally) -- and in the news have u read masood hasan, kamran shafi, or khaled ahmed in the TFT or DT? or pervez hoodbhoy in Dawn or akbar zaidi`s article last week on teaching of india in pakistan? the list goes on and on
hpL :Thanks for accepting that CowasJee supports the army` -- its not for me or u to accept - thats the sense i get when i read him -- that isnt the point raised in the article is it -- it is about a provincial minister threatening a columnist
hp again: ``Like the working journalists that I mentioned in my post and you skipped over them in writing praise for Ayaz Amir and I. A. Rehman. The pseudo liberals, who would run under the army cover the minute boots show up on their doorsteps. I just hope you meet some old timer working journalists and learn stories about some “liberal” journalists and their love for the army. ``
hp sahib -- editorials in dawn are written by in house fulltime staff members -- though i am under 35 most of my colleagues, the editor included, are well above 60 -- the editor of the editorial page has been around since before 1971 so he`s been through it all -- the editor started his career in 1964 working with the civil and military gazette -- the editor before him, ahmed ali khan, an institution in himself, was editor from 1973 till 2004 (with a hiatus of three years in between) and he has worked under ayub even -- trust me there is no dearth of stories -- strange u should mention i a rehman , he is extremely critical and till his job as director of HRCP was a full time journalist much of his life -- and by the way it doesnt matter whether u r a liberal or conservative - i wonder what u would do if the midnight knock were to happen at your door or if strangers come to your house door in your absence and warn your children (as happened with the TFT`s ejaz haider) -- you say u dont want to generalize but u end up doing just that hp sahib -- and oh by the way, when i was with dawn in lahore (1998-2000) our news editor there had been sentenced to 50 lashes by zia -- i supposed that counts in your estimation hp sahib , or no?
im actually confused because im not sure what u want these liberal army critics to do -- i mean their job is to objectively assess and comment and criticize whenever necessary -- so a lot of them do that and some of them dont -- its not, as you think, the other way round --
#56 by ferozk on August 20, 2004 8:38pm PT
re: Omar R. Qureshi
(lol)
My sources? Pray, tell tell me what sources a ``school teacher`` might have, who is ignorant of the ground realities (unlike the Delphic sages on an editorial board?)
As to Somooro, since I am in your eyes ignorant and a school teacher too, was Somooro in fact even arrested?
Please ask Cowasjee if he uses a ghost writer and off course, he would have denied it if asked! :)
Ciao
feroz sahib -- like i said earlier i cant really ask mr ilahi bux soomro on your behalf, perhaps you can yourself -- as for the ghost writer bit i knew this is what you would probably say so i qualified what i wrote by saying (please read closer) that unless he was lying he doesnt use a ghost writer -- and also his editor of the past 18 years -- dawn`s editorial page editor and my senior colleague also believes that he doesnt ghost write his columns -- i suppose his assessment is probably going to be more accurate than either your`s or mine`s
as for your sarcasm about my reference to your job -- i believe you are a teacher or some sorts arent u and your ilogs say it -- if u arent i apologize for the factual error -- but if u r then my reference to your profession should be fine since in the not too distant past i distinctly remember you commenting or referring to my profession
hp: ``You also would know that for long time Pakistan Times was the only English newspaper in Punjab and other newspapers were not allowed any declaration until the Nawiawaqt group, another pro Army group then, was allowed to start the Nation.`` -- yes of course but i was talking more about the present, the past decade or so up till now to be precise --
hp: ``It is whole lot easier to write about Pakistan’s foreign policy. It is a different story when newspapers take a shot at the army for denying people their civil rights including the screwing up with the constitution at will. `` -- again read editorials by the TFT, DT, Nation and Dawn and u will find severe criticism of the current military govt -- also pretty scathing article by asma jehangir on the tharparkar byelection in todays dawn -- also recent editorial on presenting our softer face and another on okara farms directly criticizing the army govt -- also herald and newsline extremely critical too -- this is to set the record straight --
``I was referring to the so called elite in the newspapers who get to travel with every President, PM and then some more foreign trips that are arranged for them regularly.`` -- ok point taken but these are very few and much of the journalists community knows them and dislikes them -- in many cases they end up doing favours for their proprietors or themselves -- again, speaking from my own example, the editor routinely refuses requests by PID or the information ministry to send correspondents on overseas travel -- the rule is that if anyone has to be sent then it must be at the editor`s discretion -- of course im not saying that the freeloaders that u speak of arent there -- and most of them come on PTV or even the private TV channels more often than in the english print media (and perhaps more in the urdu press)
and now this hp: ``How many editorials by Dawn can you quote that have denounced the army for illegal coups and messing with the constitution? ``
this list would go into the hundred or thousands because (and this i say only since u asked) -- the newspaper`s consistent policy (at least since zia`s rule) has been to criticize military takeovers and to call for democratic rule -- and this policy is unambiguous and not passive by any means -- you can read the editorials yourselves and judge for yourself -- i am amazed by this remark -- i think a lot of people tend to criticize without first reading whats been written
since u specifically mention this, here is the editorial that came on august 14 -- u can judge for yourself how much praiseworthy or otherwise it is of the current govt hp sahib --
Need for national consensus
The nation today celebrates its fifty-seventh independence day in a mood that is far from cheerful and optimistic. There is a lack of direction and commitment, and a country founded by a constitution a list like Mohammad Ali Jinnah finds itself languishing under a quasi-democratic dispensation.
The National Security Council, constituted through a bill enacted with the support of a section of the opposition, has subordinated the elected civilian leadership to the military`s whims, thus weakening the concept of the sovereignty of the people and negating the essence of democracy.
The underlying assumption behind the formation of the NSC - that the military knows what is best for the nation - is fallacious. Our politicians have not exactly lived up to the Quaid-i-Azam`s ideals; indeed when they have been in power they have often trampled democratic norms and weakened democratic institutions.
But there is nothing to suggest that military rulers have done any better either. As history shows, periods of chaos have followed military rule, because the generals left behind them systems that did not have the people`s consent.
Thus the constitutional schemes devised by Ayub Khan and the arbitrary amendments to the 1973 Constitution by Ziaul Haq could not last long because neither believed in participatory democracy.
The constitution made by Ayub Khan relied on indirect election to parliament and was abrogated when he lost power, while in the case of Ziaul Haq it was left to his protege, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to repeal Article 58-2(b) that empowered the president to dissolve an elected parliament and government.
Both Ziaul Haq and two of his predecessors - Mr Ghulam Ishaq Khan and Mr Farooq Leghari - made arbitrary use of this clause. Today, we are confronted with the same question: will the arbitrary changes made to the Constitution through the Legal Framework Order last when the present set of generals is gone?
One feature of military governments has been the persecution of parties and politicians not on their side. Ziaul Haq persecuted the PPP and the Bhutto family and patronized sycophants and time-servers; this government has kept both the PPP and the PML-N out in the cold and pampered those who are willing to collaborate with it.
This has sidelined the two mainstream parties, thus forcing the generals to rely on the religious parties, whose support to the military regime has been grudging and based on expediency.
The LFO itself owes its inclusion in the Constitution to the support of the religious parties in a deal that neither side now looks like honouring. More unfortunately, while accusing the politicians of being corrupt and unprincipled, the military itself has shown a lack of scruples.
Nothing illustrates this better than the way the accountability process has been conducted - favourites have been forgiven and inducted into the government, while those not falling in line have had their due share of trials and jail terms.
All this has served to weaken the regime`s moral standing and contributed to a lack of national consensus not just on the political system but on all major facets of national life.
Events since 9/11 have turned the world`s focus on Pakistan, our internal scene is monitored abroad the way no other country`s is. Yet chaos, uncertainty and a lack of consensus on all vital issues - from the need or otherwise of big dams to terrorism - characterize the domestic scenario.
The monster of terrorism stalks the land, and yet the government`s handling of this highly sensitive issue has been controversial. The Wana operation especially has drawn strong criticism, because the government has not tried to take all parties along.
The same situation informs matters like the implications of Pakistan`s membership of the World Trade Organization, the lack of substantial local and foreign investment, the failure to initiate a dialogue with Baloch groups, and the question of troops for Iraq.
All these issues need to be discussed and debated threadbare in the National Assembly. Uncertainty still surrounds the president`s decision to retain his uniform. On many other questions agitating the public mind, progressive legislation has been wanting.
No law has yet been framed to abolish karo-kari and honour killings, and no progress has been made with regard to amendments to the Hudood and blasphemy laws. A point has come when more important than harking back to what the founding fathers had said is to develop a national consensus on all issues of concern.
What we need from all those who matter - political parties, intellectuals, ulema, civil society groups and the military itself - is unambiguous dedication to democracy and the rule of law.
We have to sit together and decide what we wish to be - a parliamentary democratic state or a quasi-democracy. We have to agree on how far we want religious forces to shape our domestic and foreign policies. We have already wasted five decades in dithering over our sense of direction; further delay will have even graver repercussions.
hp again: ``You seem to quote Ayaz Amir a lot. Isn’t this the same guy who wrote against every single civilian govt. in Pakistan and wasn’t he the one who was among the first ones to welcome the army coup in 1999? ``
err yes he did initially -- he has written against all govts, civilian and military -- have u read him now -- specifically over the past three years -- have u read any of aqil shah`s articles on the army -- or any by i a rehman (tho he hasnt written in dawn that much) or by m. ziauddin (ocassionally) -- and in the news have u read masood hasan, kamran shafi, or khaled ahmed in the TFT or DT? or pervez hoodbhoy in Dawn or akbar zaidi`s article last week on teaching of india in pakistan? the list goes on and on
hpL :Thanks for accepting that CowasJee supports the army` -- its not for me or u to accept - thats the sense i get when i read him -- that isnt the point raised in the article is it -- it is about a provincial minister threatening a columnist
hp again: ``Like the working journalists that I mentioned in my post and you skipped over them in writing praise for Ayaz Amir and I. A. Rehman. The pseudo liberals, who would run under the army cover the minute boots show up on their doorsteps. I just hope you meet some old timer working journalists and learn stories about some “liberal” journalists and their love for the army. ``
hp sahib -- editorials in dawn are written by in house fulltime staff members -- though i am under 35 most of my colleagues, the editor included, are well above 60 -- the editor of the editorial page has been around since before 1971 so he`s been through it all -- the editor started his career in 1964 working with the civil and military gazette -- the editor before him, ahmed ali khan, an institution in himself, was editor from 1973 till 2004 (with a hiatus of three years in between) and he has worked under ayub even -- trust me there is no dearth of stories -- strange u should mention i a rehman , he is extremely critical and till his job as director of HRCP was a full time journalist much of his life -- and by the way it doesnt matter whether u r a liberal or conservative - i wonder what u would do if the midnight knock were to happen at your door or if strangers come to your house door in your absence and warn your children (as happened with the TFT`s ejaz haider) -- you say u dont want to generalize but u end up doing just that hp sahib -- and oh by the way, when i was with dawn in lahore (1998-2000) our news editor there had been sentenced to 50 lashes by zia -- i supposed that counts in your estimation hp sahib , or no?
im actually confused because im not sure what u want these liberal army critics to do -- i mean their job is to objectively assess and comment and criticize whenever necessary -- so a lot of them do that and some of them dont -- its not, as you think, the other way round --
#56 by ferozk on August 20, 2004 8:38pm PT
re: Omar R. Qureshi
(lol)
My sources? Pray, tell tell me what sources a ``school teacher`` might have, who is ignorant of the ground realities (unlike the Delphic sages on an editorial board?)
As to Somooro, since I am in your eyes ignorant and a school teacher too, was Somooro in fact even arrested?
Please ask Cowasjee if he uses a ghost writer and off course, he would have denied it if asked! :)
Ciao
feroz sahib -- like i said earlier i cant really ask mr ilahi bux soomro on your behalf, perhaps you can yourself -- as for the ghost writer bit i knew this is what you would probably say so i qualified what i wrote by saying (please read closer) that unless he was lying he doesnt use a ghost writer -- and also his editor of the past 18 years -- dawn`s editorial page editor and my senior colleague also believes that he doesnt ghost write his columns -- i suppose his assessment is probably going to be more accurate than either your`s or mine`s
as for your sarcasm about my reference to your job -- i believe you are a teacher or some sorts arent u and your ilogs say it -- if u arent i apologize for the factual error -- but if u r then my reference to your profession should be fine since in the not too distant past i distinctly remember you commenting or referring to my profession
#57 Posted by canadadryer on August 21, 2004 6:16:50 am
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#56 Posted by ferozk on August 20, 2004 8:38:16 pm
re: Omar R. Qureshi
(lol)
My sources? Pray, tell tell me what sources a ``school teacher`` might have, who is ignorant of the ground realities (unlike the Delphic sages on an editorial board?)
As to Somooro, since I am in your eyes ignorant and a school teacher too, was Somooro in fact even arrested?
Please ask Cowasjee if he uses a ghost writer and off course, he would have denied it if asked! :)
Ciao
(lol)
My sources? Pray, tell tell me what sources a ``school teacher`` might have, who is ignorant of the ground realities (unlike the Delphic sages on an editorial board?)
As to Somooro, since I am in your eyes ignorant and a school teacher too, was Somooro in fact even arrested?
Please ask Cowasjee if he uses a ghost writer and off course, he would have denied it if asked! :)
Ciao
#55 Posted by dost_mittar on August 20, 2004 4:19:08 pm
DM:
I do not dispute the richness and rawness of Panjabi, but I do not equate it with vulgarity, and certainly not with `pindi ni mithi boli`.
I do not dispute the richness and rawness of Panjabi, but I do not equate it with vulgarity, and certainly not with `pindi ni mithi boli`.
#54 Posted by Urstruly on August 20, 2004 11:11:52 am
DM
I know Pakistani Punjabis try to act bhaiyya often but what is wrong with you. What you think of as vulgarity, is actually the openness and uninhibitedness of Punjabi culture. Now you probably know several languages very well - like english, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Malyalam and probably French - but I challange you to write just one sentence as deep as `` eh itt bahron naeen aai``, in any language other than Punjabi and then top this zenith of eloquence ``kise wichon maan yawai ae``. That is the reason, Imam Din Gujrati, although, does not have a published deewan, yet his word has reached to millions, even to other cultures as well. Ever wonder why? Because of his uninhibitdness. He strums our most harmonious chords like no one else. He was the sage. He was the saint. And Rap was invented in Punjab first time ever in the whole wide world.
Currently I have divorced my Punjabiat and renounced my Punjabi citizenship in protest of Punjab`s shameless support of fauji dictators, their shamless support for aggression on other provinces; and for stealing the wealth of other provinces but I cannot separate myself from people like Imam Din and Ustad Daaman - as the Punjabi proverb goes - tidh diaN aandraN te naiN kisse nu dain hondiaN.
#53 Posted by HP on August 20, 2004 10:30:20 am
Omar,
First off, please don’t compare me to Veeresh. His whole line of argument is to show Pakistan in poor light in whatever way he can. So please leave that nut out of this discussion.
I thought you would know right away which papers are owned by the army and I was talking about the PPL group that was taken over by the army and for a long time was administered by the army generals. I have not looked at their status now, but I think those papers are still owned by the semi govt. trust and still don’t write a whole lot against the army. You also would know that for long time Pakistan Times was the only English newspaper in Punjab and other newspapers were not allowed any declaration until the Nawiawaqt group, another pro Army group then, was allowed to start the Nation.
It is whole lot easier to write about Pakistan’s foreign policy. It is a different story when newspapers take a shot at the army for denying people their civil rights including the screwing up with the constitution at will.
How many editorials by Dawn can you quote that have denounced the army for illegal coups and messing with the constitution?
Now about the cushy jobs- I should not have generalized as I know most of the working journalist just get by and if they are lucky they would own a Motor bike. I was referring to the so called elite in the newspapers who get to travel with every President, PM and then some more foreign trips that are arranged for them regularly. Let us also not forget that some of them have pretty good access to information ministry`s Largesse. Some of them are actually very well off.
You seem to quote Ayaz Amir a lot. Isn’t this the same guy who wrote against every single civilian govt. in Pakistan and wasn’t he the one who was among the first ones to welcome the army coup in 1999?
Isn’t he the one who after writing so much against Nawaz Sharif, actually traveled to Saudi Arabia to get PML(N) ticket?
Thanks for accepting that CowasJee supports the army. In my view, and it may be a little extreme for you- once you go in the army corner and support the screwing up of the civilian structure in the country, you are an army stooge and don’t deserve the kind of latitude that a poor working journalist, who is busting his ass to write the real stories deserves. Like the working journalists that I mentioned in my post and you skipped over them in writing praise for Ayaz Amir and I. A. Rehman. The pseudo liberals, who would run under the army cover the minute boots show up on their doorsteps.
I just hope you meet some old timer working journalists and learn stories about some “liberal” journalists and their love for the army.
First off, please don’t compare me to Veeresh. His whole line of argument is to show Pakistan in poor light in whatever way he can. So please leave that nut out of this discussion.
I thought you would know right away which papers are owned by the army and I was talking about the PPL group that was taken over by the army and for a long time was administered by the army generals. I have not looked at their status now, but I think those papers are still owned by the semi govt. trust and still don’t write a whole lot against the army. You also would know that for long time Pakistan Times was the only English newspaper in Punjab and other newspapers were not allowed any declaration until the Nawiawaqt group, another pro Army group then, was allowed to start the Nation.
It is whole lot easier to write about Pakistan’s foreign policy. It is a different story when newspapers take a shot at the army for denying people their civil rights including the screwing up with the constitution at will.
How many editorials by Dawn can you quote that have denounced the army for illegal coups and messing with the constitution?
Now about the cushy jobs- I should not have generalized as I know most of the working journalist just get by and if they are lucky they would own a Motor bike. I was referring to the so called elite in the newspapers who get to travel with every President, PM and then some more foreign trips that are arranged for them regularly. Let us also not forget that some of them have pretty good access to information ministry`s Largesse. Some of them are actually very well off.
You seem to quote Ayaz Amir a lot. Isn’t this the same guy who wrote against every single civilian govt. in Pakistan and wasn’t he the one who was among the first ones to welcome the army coup in 1999?
Isn’t he the one who after writing so much against Nawaz Sharif, actually traveled to Saudi Arabia to get PML(N) ticket?
Thanks for accepting that CowasJee supports the army. In my view, and it may be a little extreme for you- once you go in the army corner and support the screwing up of the civilian structure in the country, you are an army stooge and don’t deserve the kind of latitude that a poor working journalist, who is busting his ass to write the real stories deserves. Like the working journalists that I mentioned in my post and you skipped over them in writing praise for Ayaz Amir and I. A. Rehman. The pseudo liberals, who would run under the army cover the minute boots show up on their doorsteps.
I just hope you meet some old timer working journalists and learn stories about some “liberal” journalists and their love for the army.
#52 Posted by dost_mittar on August 20, 2004 9:25:16 am
Urstruly:
``I think ImamDin Gujrati was a sage.``
If people who use language like ``kise wichon maan yawai ae`` are considered sages, the concept of sage has changed quite a bit in Pakitan.
``I think ImamDin Gujrati was a sage.``
If people who use language like ``kise wichon maan yawai ae`` are considered sages, the concept of sage has changed quite a bit in Pakitan.
#51 Posted by Urstruly on August 20, 2004 8:06:39 am
Another gem from Ustad Daaman on fouji-politician nexus of evil:
Qauom de ghadaaro! te pukaro te kukaro hun
gayay hoay farnagiaN nu, muRR ke hun bulaai jao
QauoMaaN diyaN quomaaN tussi, tottay tottay kitiayaaN
bandaa bandaa, tottay tottay honda te karai jao
khaai jao khaai jao, bhaid kinneh kholne?
vichoN vich khai jao, uttooN rola pai jao
chacha deway bhateeje nu, bhateeja deway chache nu
aapo vich vandi jao, te aape vich khai jao
#50 Posted by wajahat on August 20, 2004 7:35:04 am
ana #35
Thank you for your post and you were not intruding at all. One of the things we do here is to attain a certain view of a chowki we have been interacting with or reading from for a while. Every now or then however we will find that this person will break the mould and dissappoint, surprise us. I find this disconcerting naturally, but I totally respect it, as our individuality seperates us. We can question, rhetorically challenge it, but we must give them the room to express themselves and most importantly listen.
By the way your ilog regarding Aziz Narejo`s Article was excellent!
Thank you for your post and you were not intruding at all. One of the things we do here is to attain a certain view of a chowki we have been interacting with or reading from for a while. Every now or then however we will find that this person will break the mould and dissappoint, surprise us. I find this disconcerting naturally, but I totally respect it, as our individuality seperates us. We can question, rhetorically challenge it, but we must give them the room to express themselves and most importantly listen.
By the way your ilog regarding Aziz Narejo`s Article was excellent!
#49 Posted by rahulmal on August 20, 2004 7:35:03 am
Hey Wajahat,
Thanks for bringing this to our notice!!
I sent a mail to Cowasjee when he had written something on Hindus and Muslims. He was kind enough to reply. I thought he was some obscure journalist spending his last days championing social causes. From the Chowk interacts, I get the impression that he is a powerful man! Whatever the case, threats are common in our countries where it is normal for gundas to threaten and bully law abiding citizens. In India, most of these strong-arms get elected to parliament. The irony is that they pass bills for strengthening law and order in the country :-)
I`ll send a mail to Cowasjee expressing my solidarity.
BTW, you could start a petition on some site and float it around to get support of expat Pakis. I know this happens on Sulekha.
Regards,
Rahul
Thanks for bringing this to our notice!!
I sent a mail to Cowasjee when he had written something on Hindus and Muslims. He was kind enough to reply. I thought he was some obscure journalist spending his last days championing social causes. From the Chowk interacts, I get the impression that he is a powerful man! Whatever the case, threats are common in our countries where it is normal for gundas to threaten and bully law abiding citizens. In India, most of these strong-arms get elected to parliament. The irony is that they pass bills for strengthening law and order in the country :-)
I`ll send a mail to Cowasjee expressing my solidarity.
BTW, you could start a petition on some site and float it around to get support of expat Pakis. I know this happens on Sulekha.
Regards,
Rahul
#48 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 20, 2004 7:34:52 am
#26 by wajahat on August 19, 2004 6:10am PT
Quite a few chowkies here are up in arms about Mr Cowasjee, but nobody is saying anything about the actions of an Active Provincial Minister who his using/abusing his position to undermine a leading newspaper and its senior journalist. If you want to have a debate than lets talk about that...
exactly wajahat -- good you pointed this out but there`s a very simple answer for this -- u r on chowk !
hp: the army owned newspapers????
which ones hp -- please let me know -- cant be the ones which wrote very critical editorials against the military govt on the okara farms -- something that affects and interests the armed forces directly -- i hope u know what im talking about -- and i didnt see any of these editorials even in the english press tho one urdu journalist is in detention for continuing to report -- some of the most strident critics of the armed forces like ayaz amir, i a rehman and pervez hoodbhoy all write in the english press -- i think you`re a bit wrong in assuming that people in the english press have cushy jobs -- quite a myth -- speaking english or writing it doesnt mean that you have automatically a cushy job hp -- anyways hp im afraid he is still better than a lot of people who say and do nothing (i.e. most people on sites like this)
hp again: ``You work and live in Pakistan and even though we live outside and are loonies per your post, yet some here do know what goes on in Pakistani Newspaper industry and have a very intimate knowledge about media in Pakistan. `` -- why yes of course hp -- u sit in the US while i sit on my butt here and work in the press for 10 years and of course you know more than me or any of my colleagues -- why, you could very well be chowk`s pakistani version of shri veeresh jee who does the same -- pass judgment on the media in pakistan -- sitting in delhi -- in any case HP jee lets not digress from the issue, which is threats hurled at a writer by a provincial minister -- if u want to have a discussion on your ``intricate knowledge`` of the Pakistani newspaper scene we can do that some other time --
feroz sahib -- itna zor say naheen hasein varna gir hee jaein gay -- im pretty sure it was the 70s -- next time he comes to the dawn office i will ask him again for your sake -- as for ilahi bux soomro im sorry i cant really do that feroz sahib -- im sure someone you know can corroborate your information on mr soomro --
er ana -- i know feroz lives in lahore -- i said `most` people -- as far as him being aware of the `ground realities` im not sure if a school teacher would be, even if his father happens to be a former IG or even if he meets well connected people socially -- actually i think he was the one who believed that thing about maulana fazlur rahman`s dad, who incidentally died quite a while back --also if i recollect properly, another of feroz sahib`s gem was that ch. shujaat had a role in the attack on shaukat aziz -- yes, ana, he seems very `aware` of the `ground realities` --
hellbound kya karoon yaar -- i have met the guy and known him for quite a few years and yes he does support the military but so do many others who dont do anything -- and those who criticize the military also dont do anything than rant and rave - so he actually does something and given his personal wealth he really doesnt need to -- and frankly quite sick and tired of some of the self styled arm-chair intellectuals on chowk --
imran: ``Well why for Cowasjee?? He is a blackmailer himself. Ask any builder in Karachi or any high ranking officer in KBCA (Karachi Building Control Authority) they will tell you the real stories about him. Let the culprits deal each other. ``
hahaha good one imran sahib -- ask the KBCA, which most karachiites believe to be the den of corruption and where files dont move unless you pay officials, ask them for cowasjee ????? u seem to another very well informed chowkie -- thats like asking sharon for an opinion on arafat -- jeez this place surprises me all the time
Quite a few chowkies here are up in arms about Mr Cowasjee, but nobody is saying anything about the actions of an Active Provincial Minister who his using/abusing his position to undermine a leading newspaper and its senior journalist. If you want to have a debate than lets talk about that...
exactly wajahat -- good you pointed this out but there`s a very simple answer for this -- u r on chowk !
hp: the army owned newspapers????
which ones hp -- please let me know -- cant be the ones which wrote very critical editorials against the military govt on the okara farms -- something that affects and interests the armed forces directly -- i hope u know what im talking about -- and i didnt see any of these editorials even in the english press tho one urdu journalist is in detention for continuing to report -- some of the most strident critics of the armed forces like ayaz amir, i a rehman and pervez hoodbhoy all write in the english press -- i think you`re a bit wrong in assuming that people in the english press have cushy jobs -- quite a myth -- speaking english or writing it doesnt mean that you have automatically a cushy job hp -- anyways hp im afraid he is still better than a lot of people who say and do nothing (i.e. most people on sites like this)
hp again: ``You work and live in Pakistan and even though we live outside and are loonies per your post, yet some here do know what goes on in Pakistani Newspaper industry and have a very intimate knowledge about media in Pakistan. `` -- why yes of course hp -- u sit in the US while i sit on my butt here and work in the press for 10 years and of course you know more than me or any of my colleagues -- why, you could very well be chowk`s pakistani version of shri veeresh jee who does the same -- pass judgment on the media in pakistan -- sitting in delhi -- in any case HP jee lets not digress from the issue, which is threats hurled at a writer by a provincial minister -- if u want to have a discussion on your ``intricate knowledge`` of the Pakistani newspaper scene we can do that some other time --
feroz sahib -- itna zor say naheen hasein varna gir hee jaein gay -- im pretty sure it was the 70s -- next time he comes to the dawn office i will ask him again for your sake -- as for ilahi bux soomro im sorry i cant really do that feroz sahib -- im sure someone you know can corroborate your information on mr soomro --
er ana -- i know feroz lives in lahore -- i said `most` people -- as far as him being aware of the `ground realities` im not sure if a school teacher would be, even if his father happens to be a former IG or even if he meets well connected people socially -- actually i think he was the one who believed that thing about maulana fazlur rahman`s dad, who incidentally died quite a while back --also if i recollect properly, another of feroz sahib`s gem was that ch. shujaat had a role in the attack on shaukat aziz -- yes, ana, he seems very `aware` of the `ground realities` --
hellbound kya karoon yaar -- i have met the guy and known him for quite a few years and yes he does support the military but so do many others who dont do anything -- and those who criticize the military also dont do anything than rant and rave - so he actually does something and given his personal wealth he really doesnt need to -- and frankly quite sick and tired of some of the self styled arm-chair intellectuals on chowk --
imran: ``Well why for Cowasjee?? He is a blackmailer himself. Ask any builder in Karachi or any high ranking officer in KBCA (Karachi Building Control Authority) they will tell you the real stories about him. Let the culprits deal each other. ``
hahaha good one imran sahib -- ask the KBCA, which most karachiites believe to be the den of corruption and where files dont move unless you pay officials, ask them for cowasjee ????? u seem to another very well informed chowkie -- thats like asking sharon for an opinion on arafat -- jeez this place surprises me all the time
#47 Posted by rsridhar on August 20, 2004 7:34:51 am
re: the appeal
My appeal to Pakis would be to recognise the danger they are in by allowing crap like Farzana bibi to write articles in their own reputed e-news like the TFT. My guess is most Pakis do not know what a crap this woman is. Anyway, she shows her class (or shall i say, lack of it) in this weeks edition.
Pakis, beware.
Sridhar
My appeal to Pakis would be to recognise the danger they are in by allowing crap like Farzana bibi to write articles in their own reputed e-news like the TFT. My guess is most Pakis do not know what a crap this woman is. Anyway, she shows her class (or shall i say, lack of it) in this weeks edition.
Pakis, beware.
Sridhar
#46 Posted by Urstruly on August 20, 2004 7:27:05 am
digit # 39
I think Cowasji is gonna write his next column about the extra-judicial murder of Qari Mohammd Noor in police cutody or about 5700 political prisoners who are rotting in jails since 2001 without a charge and access to an attorney. These people were apprehended by a draconian law that was passed then which empowers police to hold anyone it likes for one year without a charge and excess to an attorney or family. The said law also authrorizes police to raid any residence without an authrization from magistrate. It can also pick up any person from street without charging him. Ironically the law is called Police Reforms Act. Or I think Cowasji is currently writing a column against the newly passed legislation by ``Musharaf`s assembly`` that muzzels the freedom of press for good in Pakistan.
#45 Posted by Urstruly on August 20, 2004 7:14:21 am
teshah
hala te Maluk hori Attock ne han. wat dil khush kita ne maluk saib.
I think ImamDin Gujrati was a sage. May God bless his soul. Here is another gem by another sage Ustad Daaman:
(about political leadership)
eh apneyaN de vairi ne
dam doosriaN da bharde ne
eh matt kisse di lainde neeN
jo mann ich aawe karde ne
kiyoN aqloon baahr na awaan maiN?
hun rabba kithe jawaN maiN?
#44 Posted by tintingem on August 19, 2004 9:33:18 pm
#28-ana
No ana, I was not including ferozk in the list of expatriates. I just wrote the first line for him!
But don`t worry, we have many non-expatriates as well who are not aware of the ground realities-atleast i meet a few everyday.
No ana, I was not including ferozk in the list of expatriates. I just wrote the first line for him!
But don`t worry, we have many non-expatriates as well who are not aware of the ground realities-atleast i meet a few everyday.
#43 Posted by teshah on August 19, 2004 8:43:29 pm
10-urstruly
You are right. I as an Attocky feel this broad day light rape all the more as this has been made possible by Eeman Waseem, a young daughter of Attock, who was so shameless as to support a `gher mehram` alien to disgrace Attockies. This is a shear thuggary of `Matarruaism` which has used Gujrati, Arbabi `dhaggas` to disgrace themselve and the nation as a whole. What a pity! It reminds us of Ustad Imamdin Gujrati, a comic poet of Gujrat. Once he was reciting his poetry in a gathering when a piece of brick fell on the srage. The Ustad immediately blurt out the following couplet extempore:-
Eh mehfil ae sharifan di, koi dhobi ae koi naai ae
eh itt bahron naeen aai, kise wichon maan yawai ae
You are right. I as an Attocky feel this broad day light rape all the more as this has been made possible by Eeman Waseem, a young daughter of Attock, who was so shameless as to support a `gher mehram` alien to disgrace Attockies. This is a shear thuggary of `Matarruaism` which has used Gujrati, Arbabi `dhaggas` to disgrace themselve and the nation as a whole. What a pity! It reminds us of Ustad Imamdin Gujrati, a comic poet of Gujrat. Once he was reciting his poetry in a gathering when a piece of brick fell on the srage. The Ustad immediately blurt out the following couplet extempore:-
Eh mehfil ae sharifan di, koi dhobi ae koi naai ae
eh itt bahron naeen aai, kise wichon maan yawai ae
#42 Posted by ferozk on August 19, 2004 6:10:33 pm
re: omar. r. quereshi
LOL
Incidently, do know the year Cowasjee was in jail and secondly, can you confirm if Ellahi Bux Somooro was also jailed by Bhutto in the same period? Was it 1974 or 1975?
Ciao
LOL
Incidently, do know the year Cowasjee was in jail and secondly, can you confirm if Ellahi Bux Somooro was also jailed by Bhutto in the same period? Was it 1974 or 1975?
Ciao
#41 Posted by ferozk on August 19, 2004 6:04:34 pm
re: tintingem # 22
Whether I am living in Pakistan or else where, it does not lessen the fact that military rule no matter how enlightened, will always be wrong. Musharraf may be best option for Pakistan in the immediate sense, but the results of the military rule will be far worse in the long term. As to the ground realities, each day the military stays in power, the nation is heading towards a systematic crisis of political illegitmacy.
Those, like yourself who convince themselves, and who give up a little of their freedoms in exchange of some sense of security end up with neither. A military rule is no substitute for democracy and even a good military rule does not in any way offers a substitute for a bad democracy. You talk about the mullah and the hate filled rhetoric in the mosques, but have you ever wondered who tolerated and encouraged this sort of expression? ``Need of the hour`` is another side of appeasement and the need of the hour may be beneficial, but it not always the right choice.
Ciao
Whether I am living in Pakistan or else where, it does not lessen the fact that military rule no matter how enlightened, will always be wrong. Musharraf may be best option for Pakistan in the immediate sense, but the results of the military rule will be far worse in the long term. As to the ground realities, each day the military stays in power, the nation is heading towards a systematic crisis of political illegitmacy.
Those, like yourself who convince themselves, and who give up a little of their freedoms in exchange of some sense of security end up with neither. A military rule is no substitute for democracy and even a good military rule does not in any way offers a substitute for a bad democracy. You talk about the mullah and the hate filled rhetoric in the mosques, but have you ever wondered who tolerated and encouraged this sort of expression? ``Need of the hour`` is another side of appeasement and the need of the hour may be beneficial, but it not always the right choice.
Ciao
#40 Posted by imran on August 19, 2004 1:26:40 pm
Well why for Cowasjee?? He is a blackmailer himself. Ask any builder in Karachi or any high ranking officer in KBCA (Karachi Building Control Authority) they will tell you the real stories about him. Let the culprits deal each other.
#39 Posted by hellbound on August 19, 2004 11:17:19 am
Omar why state the obvious, let the louts learn for themselves
#38 Posted by _digit on August 19, 2004 11:17:19 am
Where was the urgant appeal for this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3580600.stm
Never mind, I know the answer.
Needless to say, Mr. Cowasjee must NOT be touched.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3580600.stm
Never mind, I know the answer.
Needless to say, Mr. Cowasjee must NOT be touched.
#37 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 19, 2004 9:58:25 am
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#36 Posted by rozaiba on August 19, 2004 9:58:25 am
The Sindh Minister of Industries Mr. Siddiqui is attacking a person`s freedom. Such abuse of governmental powers is deplorable. That in and of itself is reason enough to protest regardless of the credentials (or lack thereof) of the victim.
One doesn`t have to like Javed Hashmi to protest the unjust jail sentence. That same logic flows to Cowsjee being threatened by an unjust government.
One doesn`t have to like Javed Hashmi to protest the unjust jail sentence. That same logic flows to Cowsjee being threatened by an unjust government.
#35 Posted by ana on August 19, 2004 9:07:45 am
wajahat,
everyone here is able to defend themselves. i don`t believe i was defending what feroz said, merely pointing out that he is not an expatriate.
my apologies however, for intruding on your board. and i do admire your defense of cowasjee (who can also defend himself, and has), since i`ve read cowasjee for years, and admired him as well. there was a time when i greatly respected your opinions, and the stands you take. i hope the time will come when i can do so again.
all the best,
ana
everyone here is able to defend themselves. i don`t believe i was defending what feroz said, merely pointing out that he is not an expatriate.
my apologies however, for intruding on your board. and i do admire your defense of cowasjee (who can also defend himself, and has), since i`ve read cowasjee for years, and admired him as well. there was a time when i greatly respected your opinions, and the stands you take. i hope the time will come when i can do so again.
all the best,
ana
#34 Posted by CoolHandLuke on August 19, 2004 9:07:44 am
Shame, shame! But I doubt they`ll ever get to do anything than just talk and shout.
#33 Posted by HP on August 19, 2004 9:07:44 am
#23 by omar_r_quraishi
We are not here to discuss CoawasJee’s largesse or his credentials as a businessman or how much influence he has with the high ups in every military government.
I am afraid CoawasJee is not a working journalist s so he can’t ask for the same privileges.
He may be a very good writer and he does write about Karachi issues with an insider’s knowledge but has he ever supported working journalists’ cause in Pakistan? Let’s look at the recent history. Musharaff went on record to scold journalists in public and CoawasJee never said a word about it or did he?
About a year ago some Sindhi journalist were arrested by the army for just doing their duty and reporting some uncomfortable stories about the situation in Sindh-I am talking about couple of Journalists from Daily Kawish- and I hope you know the case. Sehbai’s family was harassed in Pakistan; a so called independent channel was stopped from broadcasting younger Sharif’s interview and many more incidents that I can quote here. Did CoawasJee ever even raise an eyebrow? You work and live in Pakistan and even though we live outside and are loonies per your post, yet some here do know what goes on in Pakistani Newspaper industry and have a very intimate knowledge about media in Pakistan.
Unfortunately, most of the Pakistani journalist, columnists and other public intellectuals –especially the ones who write in English press- have spent too much time in cushy jobs with the army owned newspapers and their sense of press freedom is when they don’t get the advice from ISPR or the local information Office.
The distinction here is; when CoawasJee actively supports an army govt. that is responsible for gagging newspapers and controlling the media and he never raises his voice about it then what right he has to ask for the privileges that working journalists deserve in a country where press freedom is guaranteed and is not dependent upon the whims of the Generals!
CoawasJee can’t sail in two boats simultaneously.
With that in mind, I condemn the provincial minister for threatening a Pakistani citizen for expressing his views.
We are not here to discuss CoawasJee’s largesse or his credentials as a businessman or how much influence he has with the high ups in every military government.
I am afraid CoawasJee is not a working journalist s so he can’t ask for the same privileges.
He may be a very good writer and he does write about Karachi issues with an insider’s knowledge but has he ever supported working journalists’ cause in Pakistan? Let’s look at the recent history. Musharaff went on record to scold journalists in public and CoawasJee never said a word about it or did he?
About a year ago some Sindhi journalist were arrested by the army for just doing their duty and reporting some uncomfortable stories about the situation in Sindh-I am talking about couple of Journalists from Daily Kawish- and I hope you know the case. Sehbai’s family was harassed in Pakistan; a so called independent channel was stopped from broadcasting younger Sharif’s interview and many more incidents that I can quote here. Did CoawasJee ever even raise an eyebrow? You work and live in Pakistan and even though we live outside and are loonies per your post, yet some here do know what goes on in Pakistani Newspaper industry and have a very intimate knowledge about media in Pakistan.
Unfortunately, most of the Pakistani journalist, columnists and other public intellectuals –especially the ones who write in English press- have spent too much time in cushy jobs with the army owned newspapers and their sense of press freedom is when they don’t get the advice from ISPR or the local information Office.
The distinction here is; when CoawasJee actively supports an army govt. that is responsible for gagging newspapers and controlling the media and he never raises his voice about it then what right he has to ask for the privileges that working journalists deserve in a country where press freedom is guaranteed and is not dependent upon the whims of the Generals!
CoawasJee can’t sail in two boats simultaneously.
With that in mind, I condemn the provincial minister for threatening a Pakistani citizen for expressing his views.
#32 Posted by wajahat on August 19, 2004 6:47:25 am
#23
Well Said Omar... Too much misdirected venom based on personal vendettas, which Pakistanis in general have a habit to use as smokescreens to avoid seeing or dealing with the bigger picture..
#28
Ana, I am sure feroz is pretty much able to defend himself....
Well Said Omar... Too much misdirected venom based on personal vendettas, which Pakistanis in general have a habit to use as smokescreens to avoid seeing or dealing with the bigger picture..
#28
Ana, I am sure feroz is pretty much able to defend himself....
#31 Posted by JohnGalt on August 19, 2004 6:47:25 am
#26 wajahat, good point.
Whether you like or dislike Cowasjee is immaterial. The abuse of power by those in power must always be stopped or at least protested.
Whether you like or dislike Cowasjee is immaterial. The abuse of power by those in power must always be stopped or at least protested.
#30 Posted by ikonoclast on August 19, 2004 6:47:24 am
Cowasjee is no doubt an arrogant man, but brave nevertheless. I agree with Wahajat that the issue is freedom of speech and a threatening minister. Cowasjee has done enough for this country by exposing corruption at high places and by his philanthrophy. My vote is for old Cowasjee!
#29 Posted by Urstruly on August 19, 2004 6:36:16 am
Wajahat
I think we all are in a bit of quagmire here. The dilemma is that whether we should support a journalist who writes against corruption bravely but sides with a murderous illagitimate regime who has started killing its own people or should we support a journalist regardless of his political convictions since his right of free speech is being violated? I think we should seek answers from our conscience rather than our political convictions.
Since for me right to life supercedes the right to freedom of speech, and it is a moral value to me, therefore, my direction is clear.
I think we all are in a bit of quagmire here. The dilemma is that whether we should support a journalist who writes against corruption bravely but sides with a murderous illagitimate regime who has started killing its own people or should we support a journalist regardless of his political convictions since his right of free speech is being violated? I think we should seek answers from our conscience rather than our political convictions.
Since for me right to life supercedes the right to freedom of speech, and it is a moral value to me, therefore, my direction is clear.
#28 Posted by wajahat on August 19, 2004 6:10:02 am
Quite a few chowkies here are up in arms about Mr Cowasjee, but nobody is saying anything about the actions of an Active Provincial Minister who his using/abusing his position to undermine a leading newspaper and its senior journalist. If you want to have a debate than lets talk about that...
#27 Posted by Godot on August 19, 2004 6:10:02 am
I don`t read Cowasjee on a regular basis but I`ve read a number of his articles over the years. For what he writes, I like him very much. He appears to be an enlightened man in the Land of Intolerance. Those who don`t agree with him, I ask whatever happened to defending the right of speech, whether one agrees with it or not? Or is that right goes only as far as you agree with it?
It`s not Cowasjee who should be defended, but the right of speech.
#26 Posted by ana on August 19, 2004 6:10:02 am
tintingem:
if you were including feroz in the list of expatriates, feroz very much lives in pakistan and inhales the polluted air there. and contrary to what some people think, he is very aware of the ``ground realities`` there.
if you were including feroz in the list of expatriates, feroz very much lives in pakistan and inhales the polluted air there. and contrary to what some people think, he is very aware of the ``ground realities`` there.
#24 Posted by twintopaz on August 19, 2004 5:36:16 am
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#23 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 19, 2004 5:36:15 am
forget the indian hate brigade, this board is proof that many of the non-indians on chowk too are no smaller whackos -- of course bara and his legal counsel kkkandk are exempt from this -- and yes some people have said that someone else (amina jilani to be precise) writes his articles -- well he was asked and denied it -- so unless he was lying he doesnt use a ghost writer, contrary to what some of the self styled wise sages of chowk seem to think
and by the way im not defending him but whatever he does is certainly a million times better than the highly opinionated confused losers (mostly) who spend hours endless discussing pakistan`s problems (usually sitting thousands of miles away) -- other than his column he funds several philanthropic projects, like many others in pakistan (who because they wish remain anonymous one doesnt get to hear of them) -- however one can only go to lyari in karachi and see his funded school run by the citizens foundation -- but then you cannot do that sitting in new york or toronto or wherever -- but yes you sure as hell can pass judgment, which (considering that several interactors said they stopped reading him a while back) would be ill-informed at best
and by the way im not defending him but whatever he does is certainly a million times better than the highly opinionated confused losers (mostly) who spend hours endless discussing pakistan`s problems (usually sitting thousands of miles away) -- other than his column he funds several philanthropic projects, like many others in pakistan (who because they wish remain anonymous one doesnt get to hear of them) -- however one can only go to lyari in karachi and see his funded school run by the citizens foundation -- but then you cannot do that sitting in new york or toronto or wherever -- but yes you sure as hell can pass judgment, which (considering that several interactors said they stopped reading him a while back) would be ill-informed at best
#22 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 19, 2004 5:34:48 am
cowasjee was jailed because by then time the democratically elected leader was not behaving all that democratically -- pakistan`s national shipping corporation (PNSC) is a nationalized version of the shipping company owned by cowasjee`s family, which is probably why he tends to hate the family of that democratically elected person who jailed him, for 72 days I think -- yes he probably has very powerful friends (you cant get more powerful in fact, at least in pakistan), who at one time (quite recently) wanted him to become governor of sindh
#21 Posted by tintingem on August 19, 2004 5:34:48 am
#15 ferozk
You are so right about his influential friends ;)
But really, just because Cowasjee supports the lesser of the evils (army) doesn`t mean that he is a coward or that he fails to speak up on social/political matters.
What`s sad is that all of you people (expatriates) who talk about the `rape` of our constitution and country at the hands of the army don`t even have a clue of the ground realities. You come to Pakistan for three weeks and talk about democracy and all. Try to live here for a couple of years-go to mosques and imambargahs, tehn you would realize the gravity of the situation.
I`m not a supporter of the army or Mush, but what I do know is that this country is going through the most sensitive period of its existence and a leader like Mush is the need of the day.
It`s easy for all of us to sit in front of our computers and write what all these politicians and generals should do-but what we fail to realize is that all that has happened in Pakistan from Bhutto till Mush was the need of the day. Pakistan is like a chameleon, we change our policies and stance according to our environment.
And the constitution? It had been raped a long time back.
And we have Bhutto to thank for in destroying all forms of institutions and discipline in our country.
You are so right about his influential friends ;)
But really, just because Cowasjee supports the lesser of the evils (army) doesn`t mean that he is a coward or that he fails to speak up on social/political matters.
What`s sad is that all of you people (expatriates) who talk about the `rape` of our constitution and country at the hands of the army don`t even have a clue of the ground realities. You come to Pakistan for three weeks and talk about democracy and all. Try to live here for a couple of years-go to mosques and imambargahs, tehn you would realize the gravity of the situation.
I`m not a supporter of the army or Mush, but what I do know is that this country is going through the most sensitive period of its existence and a leader like Mush is the need of the day.
It`s easy for all of us to sit in front of our computers and write what all these politicians and generals should do-but what we fail to realize is that all that has happened in Pakistan from Bhutto till Mush was the need of the day. Pakistan is like a chameleon, we change our policies and stance according to our environment.
And the constitution? It had been raped a long time back.
And we have Bhutto to thank for in destroying all forms of institutions and discipline in our country.
#20 Posted by wajahat on August 19, 2004 5:34:47 am
Urstruly
``I am disappointed in you. I thought you were quite enlightened politically. Why do you support a fauji establsihment`s stooge?``
A wrong remains a wrong, no matter what kind of history you have with it. If you have something against Mr Cowasjee and dont want to do anything, I respect that. But it will not stop me from trying to create awareness about an issue that I feel very strongly about since the killing of Hakeem Saeed. I obviously differ from your view of this particular situation. However on you view of the faujis, i agree completely, but this is not about the faujiz, it is about a Journalist who has been fighting elements of corruption in Pakistan for a very long time.
This is not about what religion Mr Cowasjee ascribes to, or what type of freinds he has, it is about an abuse of power by a Provincial Minister. If you want to debate about old grudges, continue to do so. This was an appeal to all those who could rise up from their personal dogmas and use their unassumed powers as Expatriate Pakistanis to voice concern. If you cant see that, I myself am pretty disappointed....
``I am disappointed in you. I thought you were quite enlightened politically. Why do you support a fauji establsihment`s stooge?``
A wrong remains a wrong, no matter what kind of history you have with it. If you have something against Mr Cowasjee and dont want to do anything, I respect that. But it will not stop me from trying to create awareness about an issue that I feel very strongly about since the killing of Hakeem Saeed. I obviously differ from your view of this particular situation. However on you view of the faujis, i agree completely, but this is not about the faujiz, it is about a Journalist who has been fighting elements of corruption in Pakistan for a very long time.
This is not about what religion Mr Cowasjee ascribes to, or what type of freinds he has, it is about an abuse of power by a Provincial Minister. If you want to debate about old grudges, continue to do so. This was an appeal to all those who could rise up from their personal dogmas and use their unassumed powers as Expatriate Pakistanis to voice concern. If you cant see that, I myself am pretty disappointed....
#19 Posted by wajahat on August 19, 2004 5:34:47 am
kkkandk
Thank you for your support on the board, I appreciate your balanced views on the issues discussed.
Regards
Syed Wajahat Ali
Thank you for your support on the board, I appreciate your balanced views on the issues discussed.
Regards
Syed Wajahat Ali
#18 Posted by Urstruly on August 19, 2004 4:29:21 am
Ras
There is no question about Coawsji`s bravery though. Being a hustler aside - in a city or a country where human life is not worth that of a pye dog, he has taken on corrupt politicians and government officials throughout his life. This is an awesome feat in itself. I used to have a lot of respect for him for that reason but what he has done now when his pubes have turned gray figthing corruption, is inexcusable. He has sold his soul to the devil. Military is the epitomy of evil and corruption in Pakistan. The very reason that Pakistani beareaucracy and politicians and instruments of government are so corrupt is because of military. Since military rule according to modern standards is an illegitimate rule, therefore, it has to corrupt all those around them as well so that a kettle is not able to call a pot black. There are some people on this forum who represent the tiny minority in Paksitan who have never stood in a line outside a bank to deposit their utility bills in sweltering heat, their files never stop at a government office with objections, they do not have to pay police at checkpoints to get to home to their children in one piece after work, they are never told by a bank official to take a hike when they apply for a loan. For them Pakistan is America - the loveliest place on earth. They do not see corruption around them - because they don`t want to. They don`t see humanity rotting in front of hospitals begging for an aspirine. For them Pakistan has a bad name in the community of world not because of their corruption and ineptitude but because a fukking moulvi in a god forsaken mosque tells his parishnors where the source of evil is. Why in world would they want to change a system that has given them so much. Why wouldn`t they protect this sysetm - this system that is created by a corrupt and rogue military. Cowasjee has sold himself to this evil in his twilight years. He has sold us all. My opposition to Cowasji is not a political disagreement but it is only disgust and disappointment. Supporting evil is not a political option.
#17 Posted by Tauqeer on August 18, 2004 11:41:38 pm
Dear Cowsjee,
I am regular reader of your articles, you are a brave and intellectual person, may Allah save you from all bad people.
I request President Musharaf to intervene and save this brave writer, who is just writing truth.
Best Regards,
Syed Tauqeer, Abu Dhabi, UAE
I am regular reader of your articles, you are a brave and intellectual person, may Allah save you from all bad people.
I request President Musharaf to intervene and save this brave writer, who is just writing truth.
Best Regards,
Syed Tauqeer, Abu Dhabi, UAE
#16 Posted by twintopaz on August 18, 2004 11:41:37 pm
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#15 Posted by ferozk on August 18, 2004 10:45:26 pm
Cowasjee was jailed in the 1970s and while in Karachi jail, he started a rose garden, which I believe is still exists.
Why was he jailed by a democratically elected leader of Pakistan?
Cowasjee is old; in his 80s and is entering the dotting age and some times his memory slips and some times he writes articles, which makes us fume, laugh or simply confuses us. Cowasjee suffers from a disappointment. As a young man, he saw the birth of Pakistan in 1947 and since then, he has seen each political generation, despite the clothes of dictators, tear that dream apart. I do not read his articles, because I have a feeling that old Cowasjee uses a ghost writer but I do not question his wish for a better Pakistan. In that wish, he has spoken out against the many rapists of that particular wish, while the rest of us chose to remain silent. He supports the military because he does not think that mullahs are a better choice and between the devil and satan, he favors the devil. What ever his faults, Cowasjee speaks his mind and that makes him a nuance to the powers of Pakistan, who are still not that far removed from their old feudal ways.
There is no need to defend Cowasjee. He has powerful friends who will not let an errand minister of industries harm him.
Ciao
Why was he jailed by a democratically elected leader of Pakistan?
Cowasjee is old; in his 80s and is entering the dotting age and some times his memory slips and some times he writes articles, which makes us fume, laugh or simply confuses us. Cowasjee suffers from a disappointment. As a young man, he saw the birth of Pakistan in 1947 and since then, he has seen each political generation, despite the clothes of dictators, tear that dream apart. I do not read his articles, because I have a feeling that old Cowasjee uses a ghost writer but I do not question his wish for a better Pakistan. In that wish, he has spoken out against the many rapists of that particular wish, while the rest of us chose to remain silent. He supports the military because he does not think that mullahs are a better choice and between the devil and satan, he favors the devil. What ever his faults, Cowasjee speaks his mind and that makes him a nuance to the powers of Pakistan, who are still not that far removed from their old feudal ways.
There is no need to defend Cowasjee. He has powerful friends who will not let an errand minister of industries harm him.
Ciao
#14 Posted by Ras on August 18, 2004 7:45:27 pm
``Brave people like Mr Cowasjee deserve our respect and our support``
Brave?
Cowasjee?
#13 Posted by stuka on August 18, 2004 7:33:43 pm
Apparently there was an Indian dude who was member of Jundullah. LOL!! What goes around.....
#12 Posted by kkkandk on August 18, 2004 7:28:44 pm
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#11 Posted by faisaluno on August 18, 2004 7:28:44 pm
malik and urstruly, i hope and prey that your family members are around to catch the action when next time time one of your beloved muslims from fata do their thing:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040807_416.html
``_ _ _The men, part of a previously unknown group called Jundallah, or Allah`s Brigade, are also believed to have been involved in recent attacks on Shiite Muslim mosques in Karachi.
Both Rahman and Bajwa received training in October and November of 2003 in South Waziristan at an alleged al-Qaida facility and shooting range on the property of tribal leader Eda Khan.
The camp near Shakai, a town of mud-brick compounds surrounded by mountains and forests, was overrun by the army in June following the arrests in Karachi. Eda Khan surrendered and is in custody.``
#10 Posted by Urstruly on August 18, 2004 6:41:14 pm
Another dark day in the history of Pakistan
Shaukat aziz got ``elected``
We have been raped again in broad day light. God save us all.
#9 Posted by Urstruly on August 18, 2004 6:37:55 pm
Hash
I do not see your point. Why should we be soft on fukking rapists, their aiders and abeters?
#7 Posted by malik99 on August 18, 2004 3:20:51 pm
I can see a lot of good coming out of this episode.
Cowasjee will be much more aware of the true nature of our dictators. He will also understand that it is NOT ok to KILL people who are not liberal or have different views about the direction in which Pakistan should go. There are religious people in US living amicably with the non-religious people. But no one advocates lessening the role of religion in US via killing of religious people - even if religious people bomb abortion clinics, physically block access to abortion clinics, or threaten state legislatures into legalizing ``theory of evolution`` as the ONLY legitimate theory.
In short, when you cheer on the killings of the people who think differently (instead of a having a dialogue), then sooner or later someone will find you guilty of thinking ``differently`` too.
Cowasjee will be much more aware of the true nature of our dictators. He will also understand that it is NOT ok to KILL people who are not liberal or have different views about the direction in which Pakistan should go. There are religious people in US living amicably with the non-religious people. But no one advocates lessening the role of religion in US via killing of religious people - even if religious people bomb abortion clinics, physically block access to abortion clinics, or threaten state legislatures into legalizing ``theory of evolution`` as the ONLY legitimate theory.
In short, when you cheer on the killings of the people who think differently (instead of a having a dialogue), then sooner or later someone will find you guilty of thinking ``differently`` too.
#6 Posted by Soulat on August 18, 2004 3:20:51 pm
I satopped reading Dawn and Cowasjee four years ago. His articles before 1999 were purposely Anti civilians in Pakistan.
Somebody needs to explore his financial dealings with Beram Avari. I know they are co-religionist and Beram is a major army supporter in Karachi.
#5 Posted by malik99 on August 18, 2004 1:47:56 pm
Cowasjee states ``How is it that a minister of General Musharraf`s own government is using terrorist tactics out of pique and out of having been somewhat exposed? And what connection do his words have with either enlightenment or moderation?``
Subhan`Allah! I am glad that Cowasjee finally sees the terrorist policies of the thugs who are ruling Pakistan today. Unfortunately, he sees it only when he is himself on the wrong end of the stick. Did he speak up when Musharraf uses gunship helicopters at fleeing civilians in Wana? Did he send him e.mails that he should not be using army against his own population?
Unfortunately Cowasjee stumbled and did something that was not liked. And NOW he knows how much ``freedom`` and ``moderation`` is being imported in Pakistan from US.
Subhan`Allah! I am glad that Cowasjee finally sees the terrorist policies of the thugs who are ruling Pakistan today. Unfortunately, he sees it only when he is himself on the wrong end of the stick. Did he speak up when Musharraf uses gunship helicopters at fleeing civilians in Wana? Did he send him e.mails that he should not be using army against his own population?
Unfortunately Cowasjee stumbled and did something that was not liked. And NOW he knows how much ``freedom`` and ``moderation`` is being imported in Pakistan from US.
#4 Posted by Hash on August 18, 2004 1:47:56 pm
I`ve got no opinion either way on what`s been written by syed ali...
I do have a problem with the vulgarity used by a response to the article.
Strong feelings sometimes evoke strong emotions and words... regardless of where one comes down on what`s been written... I can`t really see the point for the profanity.
Hash
I do have a problem with the vulgarity used by a response to the article.
Strong feelings sometimes evoke strong emotions and words... regardless of where one comes down on what`s been written... I can`t really see the point for the profanity.
Hash
#3 Posted by kkkandk on August 18, 2004 12:14:05 pm
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#2 Posted by Urstruly on August 18, 2004 11:46:03 am
Syed Ali
I am disappointed in you. I thought you were quite enlightened politically. Why do you support a fauji establsihment`s stooge?
#1 Posted by Urstruly on August 18, 2004 11:31:58 am
Even in 80s when I started reading Cowasjee (later I stopped reading him for years), I was of the opinion that guy is just a hustler who knows how to use his pen. Several of my friends agreed. The final nail in the coffin was when he openly supported this despot Musharaf when later raped our constitution and and also when he again gang raped us by this by-election of a twat named Shaukat Aziz. Ardeshir Cwasjee has lost my respect. He can go fukk himself now. Or better yet, let this feudal lord do that for us.
