A Case for Moderation

rajsingh1

The Pakistan Army has been complicit with a lot of things around the world. The question of the Palestinian refugees has been a long one for all the Muslim States and their treatment has been varied. Remember the decision lies with the Kings and Sheikhs who want cordial relationships with the West. Does that make the initial ethnic cleansing and continued persecution of the Palestinian refugees in their refugee camps by Israel any less off a fact...

Do detail your point about Pakistanis killing Palestinian, and enlighten us...

``The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view``

Urstruly

What the hell does your post have anything to with anything I have taken issue with? Never mind. India does not have a reason to poke a nose in Paki affairs. The Americans are doing a good enuff job.

Wajahat

Post# 11

Quote:

``If the palestinians had practical solutions, access to implementing practical solutions, why the Feck will those demented people kill themselves. Israel`s serial incursions into Palestinian areas and systematic destruction of Institutions, Equipment and systems, diallows any PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS to become a resounding fact.``

Pray what Pakistan or well wishers of Pakistan have got anything to do with Palestine/Palestinians given that Pakistan/is have been quite instrumental in killing and throwing Palestinians away from Jordan? Why this holier than thou/others attitude/statement? Is it, so long it is ``we`` who do the killing it is okay but when it happens to be others who are ``retaliating``, ``we`` come out with emotional .............

[* * *
While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus ...
* * *
The Quran, my friends, is a beautiful book and it is the only reason I believe in God, and it is the reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Read it, enjoy it, and see how tolerant and loving your God is, and see what he is not. He is not a God of Extremism, who dictates your every move, He is loving and just.
* * *
The Hadeeth often paint an intolerant picture, which is diametrically opposed to those you see in the Quran - the word of God. I do not advocate not reading the Hadeeth; on the contrary I support it. So read the hadeeth and if it makes sense, as your gut and heart that God has made will tell you, then follow it, otherwise be wary. ]

Reminds me a story, dont know true or false. Mirza Ghalib was once nagged by wife into praying. When he had just started unwillingly to sit down to pray his drinking buddy appeared almost as an answer to his prayer. Mirza said later to wife that he did not want to spoil name of Allah in thinking that he was answering the prayer. The point is if I have to exercise judgement, that means there is extra-Quran entity (one or more principles, my own psyche, heart etc whatever) which will give me a standard against which to exercise this judgement then why not just adopt that extra-Quran thing? If Quran may be granted the freedom of an evolving system then why have it at all, why not have a broad education which instructs about other religions also? Why not teach about science? After all this extra-Quran thing exists in all humans? Right? And that will guide everyone? Right? Let everyone choose and pick what to believe and what not to. After all there is this guiding spirit in all of us. It will guide us in our effort.

Okay that means we can have a Muslim reneging on his former religion? Because his heart said so? Can we? Or, will such renegade Muslim face music from painters of intolerant pictures? And may be more, like some stones may be?

Question is why let camel warm his nostrils if he throws you out of tent? After all you dont need camel. Religion comes with all its baggage. At some point one has to decide that whether one wants to have any of it. Who decides which parts are good and bad? There is no foolproof plan to keep out bad parts of religion. Only science has required cynicism which can keep process of revision alive.

Wajahat

In my previous post I meant, Pakistan was instrumental and active contributor to .........

Wajahat

Post # 20

Quote:

``The Terms of OSLO were prejudiced and one sided and am Feckin ready to have an argument with any you imbibers of Right Wing Journalistic Bullshiit about OSLO being Detroyed by Arafat. It was a NonPlan to start off with.``

Oh, the paper/document/agreement on which Palestinians, who are the affected party, signed, do not know a thing about their own country or the agreement but here comes a Pakistani or a well wisher of Pakistan, who would like others to believe that a Pakistani knows more about it? And this, when Pakistan did play its own role in killing those very Palestinians whose cause today it seems to be espousing. Is this not rich come from people like that in such an emotional ........... ?

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Rahul_Capri

Post#41

Quote:

`` Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country? ``

A valid, and an excellent question, in the circumstances.

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urstruly, the prophet osama, the jackass, and the one-eyed disciple ........

............ years ago, perhaps in my first incarnation as hamidm, i wrote this little fable (maybe it was a revelation) about urstruly leading the jackass that the prophet osama rode on his way to kandahar ..............or maybe it was osama leading the jackass while urstruly rode, chewing ganderis and spitting out the cud ..........in any case, at a dusty cross-roads on this road to nowhere, they met up with a one-eyed disciple and over a lunch of pungent goat cheese and week-old afghani nan decided to wreck havoc on the civilized world and horrible hindoos ......... the jackass heard all this nonsense and decided he had suffered enough fools and prophets and took off braying, ``astagfirullah, anouzobillah``.............. so the last time we saw this trio, they were chasing after the poor jackass in their sweat-stained night robes with towels on their heads and bathroom slippers on their feet ............

............ that was a few years ago and a lot of water has run down the euphrates since then ................... the one-eyed disciple has not been seen since; the prophet is hiding in a deep dark cave somewhere along the border between afghanistan and pakistan waiting for gabriel to bring him his next battle plans; the jackass joined the us special forces and was awarded three purple hearts and a silver star for delivering the latest issue of playboy under enemy fire and was recently appointed as the official mascot of the democratic party .............. but what happened to urstruly ?............... it seems he quickly found his way back to his cave in flint and now sits at the keyboard wrecking havoc on unsuspecting civilized folks and horrible hindoos who venture into cyberspace ............... his jihad continues .............. astagfirullah!

Suka

The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view.

HP

Your post does not make it clear whether your post is addressed to me as an individual or a group to whom I share some of my ideas with.

As far as I am concerned, as an individual, my opposition to army and Musharaf goes way back prior to 9/11. Prior to June 2001, I was not at all anti-army at all, and I must ashamedly admit that I had a soft corner for mushrafa as well. The day when Musharaf declared himself President, I stopped siding with army as well and that is before 9/11.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001087&channel=civic%20center&start=140&end=143&page=15&chapter=2&order=0#1

During Zia ul Haq time, whose political standing may persumably be considered closer to my ideology, I have taken part in violent anti-government and anti-military protests and my back and my ribs still bear the scars from the baton charges that I faced. I believe in the power of people which lays dormant in todays Pakistan. I do not beleive in the shortcuts in the lives of nations. The path to progress lies only in the proper channel. People of Paksitan, since the extra-judicial murder of Bhutto have been disenfranchised and sidelined. We do not need messiah`s like Musharaf.

I have my faith in the people of Pakistan. Today, if people like Gibran Bham go to a village in Pakistan, they will be chased out of village by dogs, leaving their pants behind. These spinmasters for this government and the slave minded class in the society is like algae (Kai) on a pool of water, which carries no weight, and yet seems to dominate whole pool. But the reality always is that under that ugly algae there is a massive body of fresh water. This is our dirt, our liability and not an asset. And it is us the people of Pakistan who have to clean this mess up. Don`t you see, in America, where the President is the most powerful person on the planet has to beg for his votes, he has to go into the public despite being a prime target for terrorists, and he has to do all the shananigans that he is doing just to get elected. (i did not use the word re-elected delibrately). And we have a Prime Minister in Pakistan who addresses his constituents, let alone the rest of Paksitan, on telephone. No where in the history of mankind a PM is appointed first and then elected later. Don`t you even feel a shred of shame what they have turned our beautiful country into. Military as an institution is a curse upon Pakistan. It is incumbent upon military to come clean thru the mess it had made or it will be dealt with by the people. And wrath of people is the wrath of God.

urstruly
//.... territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. ...//

Heck - I thought you are different from the Fauji jacka$$es you rant against...... You lost more than half your muslim brothers at the mercy of the barbaric bania army and this is the best excuse you can come up with : ``Thousand miles from the mainland``???

You know - you sound just like your much-hated americans in Iraq - because they too give similar excuses for why they continue to fail to neutralize the rag tag ``Mehdi Army in bathroom slippers``(your words).

And worse - I see no difference between you and your much-hated faujis .... because this is exactly what paki army does when it comes to `71 war : narrate elaborate excuses and sob-stories for the fact that they lost half your country. ( Come to think of it that`s only thing paki army do best - provide sob-stories and lame excuses for their gross incompetency. Now I see that disease has spread to you too. )

So there you are, the tough islamic warrior and saviour of the ummah ... shedding copious tears, putting up false bravado, giving pathetic excuses on how his ``martial`` race lost half his country to a bania army. Do you realize how miserable that is?? COme on - you can do better than this.

+++
//...We would rather die than bow to India ever...//

Really? Last time you bowed to India, begged for lives of 90,000 islamic warriors .... and yet, nobody died. No paki gave a sh!t - they just shrugged and went back to live their miserable lives as loosers.

[The Quran argues for tolerance, and while there should not be a total separation of church and state, there should be limits. While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus I question the aversion to still decapitate people, chop off hands, and stone to adulterers to death. ]

Quran koee aadamee nahee hai. Quran is not a person. So when you say that ``the Quran argues for tolerance`` I have to assume that it is your interpretation. Good. And then you are saying that you question aversion. Aversion means dislike. Question dislike means supporting. Right? So you support stoning to death? Wah Bhai Wah! Tolerance key salesman abhee stones ley key taiyyar hai. Unless you got your English screwed up here?

#48 by Urstruly

I have gathered from your various posts here, that it was not in the distance past that you were raising different Islamic flags to defend the army. You seemed to have repented since. You fervor still has not ebbed. It is just going in reverse. It is easy to take extreme positions but your position is not tenable. You cannot support political Islam and oppose the army in the same breath; at least not in the backdrop of Pak politics. Political Islam in Pak relies heavily on the Army to survive and it has been proven every step of the way. Unfortunately, the army in Pakistan had also been the mainstay of the extremist Islam.

I am not disagreeing with you on the army’s role in Pakistan and how it has destroyed the country in the last 50 years. Regretfully; your opposition to the army only goes back to the aftermath of 9-11. Everything, which the army did and you rightly mentioned in your post, happened before 9-11. Now you are denouncing the army because it was forced to go after the extremists under duress, in my opinion. If the Pak army had a choice it would still have stuck it out with the extreme Islam and that is where you really would like army to be; a supporter of the extreme Islam.

Hypothetically speaking, if today the Pak Army reverses its course and goes back to protecting the religious extremists like it did before 9-11, would you reverse your position and support the army again like you always did?

Ursturly:

``from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``

Sir, pardon me for not being intelligent enough but I read the statement as your preferring to be a Soviet sattelite as compared to being an underdog to India. Now, unless we mean different things, underdog refers to a power equation where a country ten times smaller to another is naturally an underdog to the latter. But a satellite essentially means revocation of independence, a slave stae. Hence u would prefer to be a satellite to the USSR then an underdog to India.

As far as bainyas are concerned, the baniyas have done a pretty good job charging up slopes and taking bullets in their chests for their country.

Baniya fauj broadened the war to all of Pakistan and retained Kashmir in 1965 war.

Baniya Faujis have risked life and limb and die every day to protect their land in Kashmir without using ariel bombing and gunships unlike their Mujahid counterparts in Wana.

Baniyas faujis took the heights of Siachen and hold on to it with tenacity.

Baniya generals stay on the front facing the enemy not inspecting drains in GB Road unlike their Martial Muslim counterparts of Pakistan.

So please tell me exactly what traits should we look at?