A Case for Moderation

Stuka

Now you are making things up only to justify your anger and vent your frustration for another matter. I never said that ``You said Hindus are worse then atheist commies as far as relations with Muslims are concerned.`

However, what I said was as follows, which got yours and tough-talking mohar11`s goat, who was reduced to talking loser talk of shoulda, coulda, woulda etc. I said:


``Similarly, take Zia ul Haque, despite his actions that have torn the social fabric of our country and to this date after 15 years it ails us, but when he died, his funeral was attended by millions of people in recognition of his efforts to defeat a superpower and thus protecting the homeland from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``


You Hindu people should get this crazy idea out of your head once and for all that Pakistan will ever accept India`s economic or military hegemony, ever. We would rather die than bow to India ever. As a matter of fact Hindu people should open their eyes and see what happened in Bangladesh, a territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. Compare this to Kasmir, where India is keeping 3 quarters of a million army just to keep it under control when unlike Bangladesh Kashmir is totally contiguous to India. Let us admit that basically you are baniya people, playing with weapons is a dangerous game for you, and in the end only you will hurt yourself. So try to learn to live like normal human beings in the area. Live and let live.

Vertex:

Hey, Jinnah was an idiot. He left you to our mercy didn`t he. I have no interest in planning anyone`s genocide. But heck if there is a civilizational conflict between Hinduism and Islam and south asian borders become irrelevant, I know where I stand. And with all the Ummah stuff you talk about, so do you. No apologies given or asked for.

Arjunm

The strategic advantage of an enemy cannot be construed as your enemy`s fault. Keeping this priciple in mind the freedom fighters of Mehdi Army wearing slippers, wielding assault rifles, and grenade launchers with total lack of mobility, artillery, and air support, but having an advantage of a safe enclave of Imam Ali`s shrine is not their fault just as American soldiers having their bullet proof suits, fighting vehicles, full air support, laser guided missile systems, tanks, APCs, uranium depleted weponary, mother of all bombs and nerve agents is not an American soldier`s fault.

Urstruly:

I was over-reacting because u gave me reason to. You said Hindus are worse then atheist commies as far as relations with Muslims are concerned. I am no friend of Islamic radicalism but I feel that we have tried to do a decent job to give intellectual and religious freedom to Muslims. Sometimes we have failed. But our record is better then any communist country. Even in Kashmir, situation is far better after 15 years then Chechnya after 5 years. Any reasonable person will recognize that. But deoth of Indian hatred amongst Pakistanis like u seems to be so much that u will still choose atheist communist over Hindus. That is fine. Your comment was a great revelation.

opressed
can you give me an example in pakistan`s history which you yourself would feel comfortable proclaiming that `we were on the right track then?`

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[The Muslim world is like that family, * * *]

Wrong.

The Muslim world is like the family which India would become after centrifugal forces in India got better of centripetal forces (helped by manipulative powers like US etc).

India barely manages to keep down centrifugal forces. And it is helped by the fact that it is single political entity. Not to mention more than a couple of harassing nations in the neighborhood which keeps us united.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Malayasia, Sudan etc etc. Pakistan shares border with some. There they can send ISI operatives. That is all. You are not a family. Some of these nations have to willy nilly put up with sizable non-Muslim populations and pretend that they too are UK ishtyle or otherwise secular.

Pakistan can model itself after Japan and not India. Because it can never be one such. That is if it can model itself after Japan, which it cannot as long as it remains Islamic. Japan was already a military power which could harass US at the time of Pearl Harbor. In 19th century and before it was a closed nation. The fact that it advanced so quickly is credit to its people`s genius and their intelligence in seeing what is truly important.

About splitting two attitudes to religion one harmful and one progressive: it is like allowing camel to feel warm by letting its head in tent when you sleep. End result is camel was inside tent and kind hearted Arab was outside when he woke up in the morning. There is no such thing as progressive religion. Read about Descartes, Bacon etc. Dont be hung up about old Greek thinkers simply because some old Islamic thinker translated Aristotle etc. Think about Copernicus and Galileo and Newton and Einstein and Freud. Read about history of these men how they overcame their religion rather than succumb to it. It is okay to read old thinkers but you Islamic guys again read them through translators` eyes which presented tainted picture because they were forced to reconcile Islam with old philosophers.

And one last word on science. Philosophy is not science. World view of philosophy is completed. Science is forever tentative. My guess is the reason why Islamic people are enamored of ``complete`` systems of thinking is the fact Quran is presented as one such system and science openly challenges completeness at the very outset. Science has no ``complete`` system, everything is under construction. An attitude which is opposed to all religions.

All this instruction in Islam brainwashes muslims and forces them to become expert in sophistry and then their own sophistry becomes graveyard of straightforward logical thinking. Every muslim is put in same position of reconciling a complete and antiquated system with evolving system. And they react by becoming convoluted thinkers. You are YACM (=yet another confused muslim).

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Jibbe:
Listen O moderate.

The people of pakistan and muslims and non-muslims alike from ALL countries oppressed by these Imperialist thugs, U.S and Britain ( sidekicks), will gladly pay attention to you if you write:

About ways and means to bring these thugs to their knees. Reduce them and humiliate them to a level that they never ever set foot outside their frontiers so to attempt mould the rest of the world in their own image. When these thugs start paying their dues to U.N like all civilised, albeit poor, nations do. When these thugs start behaving and obeying World Court rulings. When these Terrorists & thugs get wobbly knees when addressing the pious and practitioners of all religions.. & trash their their pseudo-Kristianity.

You think the readers here are stupid or what that you suddenly come-up with this enlightened idea. that shows your IQ level. As if we cannot see through your charade of being an Islam-lover. It is these moderates like Musharraf , Shaukat Aziz and such westoxicated scum who need to be taught the basics and fundamentals of civilisation.

P.S: A sudden crop of newly inducted members show that you`ve a fan club too. How pathetic indeed.

Jibbe
There is an illusion that things are getting better, manipulated by the spinmasters both indigenous and of the foreign variety. Reality is entirely different. I will not go into how the economic figures have been manipulated but trust me they have. On which front may I ask have things improved; political, social ... economic. In any case are we not all equal in the eyes of God and the constitution. If so what about the rights of the 40 million+ living in abject poverty? what about the rights of the detainees at guantanamobay and the rights of the people arrested in Pakistan without judicial process.
Believe me Ahmed Quddus the so called mastermind and host of Khalid of Alqaeda is actually retarded and has a mental age of 12. Our Interior Minister and Musharraf himself do not tire of giving this example. Check it out. I am not spinning yarns

Oppressed

Right on the money once again. As pathetic as Musharaf`s performance as a civilian ruler is, his military credentials are exceptionally dubios as well. His military perfomance speaks of gross incompetence. His military credentials as Chief were put to test in Kargil affair. As brilliant a plan of Kargil invasion was i.e. to occupy Kargil to cut off supply lines to Siachin, Mushraf was not the creator of this plan. The plan existed since 80`s and military sought approval from several governments since then. Mushraf as a commander in chief failed to correctly plan not only the operational details but also the stratgic planning as well. At operational level, he failed to plan a containment plan in case enemy discovered the movement of Pakistan army pre-maturely. And that is what exactly happened when some sheppards grazing their sheep in the area reported the movement of Pak army to Indians down at the base camp. Strategically he grossly underestimated the Indian response whether they discovered losing Kargil heights prematurely or not. Anyone with a half a brain could have known that India would fight tooth to nail in three months time slot to save its soldiers at Siachin. The operation on Pak side was so ill planned that in the final days of war Pakistani soldiers survived by eating grass. This is gross incompetence that resulted in the loss of thousands of Pakistani soldiers. As in the wars of 65 and 71, Pakistani army i.e. General Mushraf failed to plan on civil defence of cities incase India decided to embark on a full scale invasion. On the other hand civilian leadership and civil defence were caught as dumbfounded as deer caugt in head lights. This failure of military leadreship for cmplete lack of respect for the lives of their own civilian population is unforgivable.

Strategically, Mushraf as a military Chief also failed when he over-estimated the American threat. As it is clear from the mamoirs of Richard Clark and Tommy Frank Pakistan`s position was not as compromising as this despot led us to beleive - and this when we had a nuclear capability to fight back. It is true that every body gets wise after the fact, but as a military chief it was his job to evluate the threat and prepare a response that reflected the will of the people but instead he went crawling down to American demands. The performance of American army aka broiler chickens is evident during the first week of Iraqi invasion when it took them week to enter into just Basra. Now keep in ,mind that the weekest and most disorganized army in the world was that of Iraq which under ten years of sanctions and with periodic inspections was merely reduced to a police force. Even people like Muqtada Sadr with his fighters in bathroom slippers, and merely having assault rifles have taught such a lesson to Americans that they will be teaching in their military schools for next century. Mushraf has sold us cheap and his actions are tentamount to incompetence and treason. Not to mention that violating constitution is also treason. Those who support this despot in any shape of form are as treasonous snakes as he is. Those who write articles to justify his rule are also treasonous snakes. Those who support any stooges installed by him are also trasonous snakes. It is a patriotic and religious duty of every sane Pakistani citizen to dissociate himself from this treasonous snake.

Gibran,

How are you i just read your article it was excellent!!! I`m proud of you take care

Sadia
(stratford!!)

Gibran,

How are you i just read your article it was excellent!!! I`m proud of you take care

Sadia
(stratford!!)

Why do we all seem to forget the moral arguments ie Do the right thing, do not lie, keep your promises, help the down trodden, if not in kind atleast with words. The many turns and shifts in the name of pragmatism[moderation] are nothing more than attempts at perpetuation of Musharrafs unconstitutional and despotic rule. What is sadly happening in Pakistan is that we have lost the moral ground. This moral ground is not tied to or the ijaradari any particular religion.
I am not a supporter of Jehad or any form of violence but I would like to ask but one question.? How do we rid ourselves of Musharraf who by now it is clear is not going to let go of the army or the Chief Executive [usurpers] position, call it what name you will. His isolation amongst a group of sycophants is now complete with SA becoming PM. What a sad commentary on the integrity and capability of 140 million people that not one among them was considered fit [by Musharraf ofcourse] that he had to install his imported stooge. The biggest qualification the man has for the job are that he has handled illgotten wealth discreetly and made even more money for his corrupt clients. He also has shown exceptional adeptness at manipulating figures by changing the basis for calcs on growth rates, reserves, definition of poor etc. Who cares a shit about the poor,where they will sleep or eat, or the future of this poor country. According to Mr Aziz we are now a MIddle Income country. You have to go to interior of Sindh or Balochistan to understand what desperation and poverty are all about. What a cruel joke...

Rahul: fair enough - things arent perfect. but i think the general consencus is that things arent PERFECT but they are GETTING BETTER. im not saying that lets all kiss Musharafs ass - but Im arguing against people who are anti - government because they are anti -american. its very easy to overlook the goods and focus on the bads, and that is what we as a society tend to do. most conversations end up (even in chowk) - as a discussion on the evils of American foreign policy. I think that if you look back in history - i have taken a few cases in the essay - that Muslims are partly too blame for a lot that has overcome them. its only by being open and honest and having a rational debate can one get anywhere - that is why i argue against people who just yap (like echoboom).

Continued:42
This link is clearer:
Those who are at the top: are the Top terrorists--the moderates