A Case for Moderation

Jibbe
There is an illusion that things are getting better, manipulated by the spinmasters both indigenous and of the foreign variety. Reality is entirely different. I will not go into how the economic figures have been manipulated but trust me they have. On which front may I ask have things improved; political, social ... economic. In any case are we not all equal in the eyes of God and the constitution. If so what about the rights of the 40 million+ living in abject poverty? what about the rights of the detainees at guantanamobay and the rights of the people arrested in Pakistan without judicial process.
Believe me Ahmed Quddus the so called mastermind and host of Khalid of Alqaeda is actually retarded and has a mental age of 12. Our Interior Minister and Musharraf himself do not tire of giving this example. Check it out. I am not spinning yarns

Jibbe:
Listen O moderate.

The people of pakistan and muslims and non-muslims alike from ALL countries oppressed by these Imperialist thugs, U.S and Britain ( sidekicks), will gladly pay attention to you if you write:

About ways and means to bring these thugs to their knees. Reduce them and humiliate them to a level that they never ever set foot outside their frontiers so to attempt mould the rest of the world in their own image. When these thugs start paying their dues to U.N like all civilised, albeit poor, nations do. When these thugs start behaving and obeying World Court rulings. When these Terrorists & thugs get wobbly knees when addressing the pious and practitioners of all religions.. & trash their their pseudo-Kristianity.

You think the readers here are stupid or what that you suddenly come-up with this enlightened idea. that shows your IQ level. As if we cannot see through your charade of being an Islam-lover. It is these moderates like Musharraf , Shaukat Aziz and such westoxicated scum who need to be taught the basics and fundamentals of civilisation.

P.S: A sudden crop of newly inducted members show that you`ve a fan club too. How pathetic indeed.

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[The Muslim world is like that family, * * *]

Wrong.

The Muslim world is like the family which India would become after centrifugal forces in India got better of centripetal forces (helped by manipulative powers like US etc).

India barely manages to keep down centrifugal forces. And it is helped by the fact that it is single political entity. Not to mention more than a couple of harassing nations in the neighborhood which keeps us united.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Malayasia, Sudan etc etc. Pakistan shares border with some. There they can send ISI operatives. That is all. You are not a family. Some of these nations have to willy nilly put up with sizable non-Muslim populations and pretend that they too are UK ishtyle or otherwise secular.

Pakistan can model itself after Japan and not India. Because it can never be one such. That is if it can model itself after Japan, which it cannot as long as it remains Islamic. Japan was already a military power which could harass US at the time of Pearl Harbor. In 19th century and before it was a closed nation. The fact that it advanced so quickly is credit to its people`s genius and their intelligence in seeing what is truly important.

About splitting two attitudes to religion one harmful and one progressive: it is like allowing camel to feel warm by letting its head in tent when you sleep. End result is camel was inside tent and kind hearted Arab was outside when he woke up in the morning. There is no such thing as progressive religion. Read about Descartes, Bacon etc. Dont be hung up about old Greek thinkers simply because some old Islamic thinker translated Aristotle etc. Think about Copernicus and Galileo and Newton and Einstein and Freud. Read about history of these men how they overcame their religion rather than succumb to it. It is okay to read old thinkers but you Islamic guys again read them through translators` eyes which presented tainted picture because they were forced to reconcile Islam with old philosophers.

And one last word on science. Philosophy is not science. World view of philosophy is completed. Science is forever tentative. My guess is the reason why Islamic people are enamored of ``complete`` systems of thinking is the fact Quran is presented as one such system and science openly challenges completeness at the very outset. Science has no ``complete`` system, everything is under construction. An attitude which is opposed to all religions.

All this instruction in Islam brainwashes muslims and forces them to become expert in sophistry and then their own sophistry becomes graveyard of straightforward logical thinking. Every muslim is put in same position of reconciling a complete and antiquated system with evolving system. And they react by becoming convoluted thinkers. You are YACM (=yet another confused muslim).

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opressed
can you give me an example in pakistan`s history which you yourself would feel comfortable proclaiming that `we were on the right track then?`

Urstruly:

I was over-reacting because u gave me reason to. You said Hindus are worse then atheist commies as far as relations with Muslims are concerned. I am no friend of Islamic radicalism but I feel that we have tried to do a decent job to give intellectual and religious freedom to Muslims. Sometimes we have failed. But our record is better then any communist country. Even in Kashmir, situation is far better after 15 years then Chechnya after 5 years. Any reasonable person will recognize that. But deoth of Indian hatred amongst Pakistanis like u seems to be so much that u will still choose atheist communist over Hindus. That is fine. Your comment was a great revelation.

Arjunm

The strategic advantage of an enemy cannot be construed as your enemy`s fault. Keeping this priciple in mind the freedom fighters of Mehdi Army wearing slippers, wielding assault rifles, and grenade launchers with total lack of mobility, artillery, and air support, but having an advantage of a safe enclave of Imam Ali`s shrine is not their fault just as American soldiers having their bullet proof suits, fighting vehicles, full air support, laser guided missile systems, tanks, APCs, uranium depleted weponary, mother of all bombs and nerve agents is not an American soldier`s fault.

Vertex:

Hey, Jinnah was an idiot. He left you to our mercy didn`t he. I have no interest in planning anyone`s genocide. But heck if there is a civilizational conflict between Hinduism and Islam and south asian borders become irrelevant, I know where I stand. And with all the Ummah stuff you talk about, so do you. No apologies given or asked for.

Stuka

Now you are making things up only to justify your anger and vent your frustration for another matter. I never said that ``You said Hindus are worse then atheist commies as far as relations with Muslims are concerned.`

However, what I said was as follows, which got yours and tough-talking mohar11`s goat, who was reduced to talking loser talk of shoulda, coulda, woulda etc. I said:


``Similarly, take Zia ul Haque, despite his actions that have torn the social fabric of our country and to this date after 15 years it ails us, but when he died, his funeral was attended by millions of people in recognition of his efforts to defeat a superpower and thus protecting the homeland from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``


You Hindu people should get this crazy idea out of your head once and for all that Pakistan will ever accept India`s economic or military hegemony, ever. We would rather die than bow to India ever. As a matter of fact Hindu people should open their eyes and see what happened in Bangladesh, a territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. Compare this to Kasmir, where India is keeping 3 quarters of a million army just to keep it under control when unlike Bangladesh Kashmir is totally contiguous to India. Let us admit that basically you are baniya people, playing with weapons is a dangerous game for you, and in the end only you will hurt yourself. So try to learn to live like normal human beings in the area. Live and let live.

Ursturly:

``from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``

Sir, pardon me for not being intelligent enough but I read the statement as your preferring to be a Soviet sattelite as compared to being an underdog to India. Now, unless we mean different things, underdog refers to a power equation where a country ten times smaller to another is naturally an underdog to the latter. But a satellite essentially means revocation of independence, a slave stae. Hence u would prefer to be a satellite to the USSR then an underdog to India.

As far as bainyas are concerned, the baniyas have done a pretty good job charging up slopes and taking bullets in their chests for their country.

Baniya fauj broadened the war to all of Pakistan and retained Kashmir in 1965 war.

Baniya Faujis have risked life and limb and die every day to protect their land in Kashmir without using ariel bombing and gunships unlike their Mujahid counterparts in Wana.

Baniyas faujis took the heights of Siachen and hold on to it with tenacity.

Baniya generals stay on the front facing the enemy not inspecting drains in GB Road unlike their Martial Muslim counterparts of Pakistan.

So please tell me exactly what traits should we look at?

#48 by Urstruly

I have gathered from your various posts here, that it was not in the distance past that you were raising different Islamic flags to defend the army. You seemed to have repented since. You fervor still has not ebbed. It is just going in reverse. It is easy to take extreme positions but your position is not tenable. You cannot support political Islam and oppose the army in the same breath; at least not in the backdrop of Pak politics. Political Islam in Pak relies heavily on the Army to survive and it has been proven every step of the way. Unfortunately, the army in Pakistan had also been the mainstay of the extremist Islam.

I am not disagreeing with you on the army’s role in Pakistan and how it has destroyed the country in the last 50 years. Regretfully; your opposition to the army only goes back to the aftermath of 9-11. Everything, which the army did and you rightly mentioned in your post, happened before 9-11. Now you are denouncing the army because it was forced to go after the extremists under duress, in my opinion. If the Pak army had a choice it would still have stuck it out with the extreme Islam and that is where you really would like army to be; a supporter of the extreme Islam.

Hypothetically speaking, if today the Pak Army reverses its course and goes back to protecting the religious extremists like it did before 9-11, would you reverse your position and support the army again like you always did?

[The Quran argues for tolerance, and while there should not be a total separation of church and state, there should be limits. While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus I question the aversion to still decapitate people, chop off hands, and stone to adulterers to death. ]

Quran koee aadamee nahee hai. Quran is not a person. So when you say that ``the Quran argues for tolerance`` I have to assume that it is your interpretation. Good. And then you are saying that you question aversion. Aversion means dislike. Question dislike means supporting. Right? So you support stoning to death? Wah Bhai Wah! Tolerance key salesman abhee stones ley key taiyyar hai. Unless you got your English screwed up here?

urstruly
//.... territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. ...//

Heck - I thought you are different from the Fauji jacka$$es you rant against...... You lost more than half your muslim brothers at the mercy of the barbaric bania army and this is the best excuse you can come up with : ``Thousand miles from the mainland``???

You know - you sound just like your much-hated americans in Iraq - because they too give similar excuses for why they continue to fail to neutralize the rag tag ``Mehdi Army in bathroom slippers``(your words).

And worse - I see no difference between you and your much-hated faujis .... because this is exactly what paki army does when it comes to `71 war : narrate elaborate excuses and sob-stories for the fact that they lost half your country. ( Come to think of it that`s only thing paki army do best - provide sob-stories and lame excuses for their gross incompetency. Now I see that disease has spread to you too. )

So there you are, the tough islamic warrior and saviour of the ummah ... shedding copious tears, putting up false bravado, giving pathetic excuses on how his ``martial`` race lost half his country to a bania army. Do you realize how miserable that is?? COme on - you can do better than this.

+++
//...We would rather die than bow to India ever...//

Really? Last time you bowed to India, begged for lives of 90,000 islamic warriors .... and yet, nobody died. No paki gave a sh!t - they just shrugged and went back to live their miserable lives as loosers.

HP

Your post does not make it clear whether your post is addressed to me as an individual or a group to whom I share some of my ideas with.

As far as I am concerned, as an individual, my opposition to army and Musharaf goes way back prior to 9/11. Prior to June 2001, I was not at all anti-army at all, and I must ashamedly admit that I had a soft corner for mushrafa as well. The day when Musharaf declared himself President, I stopped siding with army as well and that is before 9/11.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001087&channel=civic%20center&start=140&end=143&page=15&chapter=2&order=0#1

During Zia ul Haq time, whose political standing may persumably be considered closer to my ideology, I have taken part in violent anti-government and anti-military protests and my back and my ribs still bear the scars from the baton charges that I faced. I believe in the power of people which lays dormant in todays Pakistan. I do not beleive in the shortcuts in the lives of nations. The path to progress lies only in the proper channel. People of Paksitan, since the extra-judicial murder of Bhutto have been disenfranchised and sidelined. We do not need messiah`s like Musharaf.

I have my faith in the people of Pakistan. Today, if people like Gibran Bham go to a village in Pakistan, they will be chased out of village by dogs, leaving their pants behind. These spinmasters for this government and the slave minded class in the society is like algae (Kai) on a pool of water, which carries no weight, and yet seems to dominate whole pool. But the reality always is that under that ugly algae there is a massive body of fresh water. This is our dirt, our liability and not an asset. And it is us the people of Pakistan who have to clean this mess up. Don`t you see, in America, where the President is the most powerful person on the planet has to beg for his votes, he has to go into the public despite being a prime target for terrorists, and he has to do all the shananigans that he is doing just to get elected. (i did not use the word re-elected delibrately). And we have a Prime Minister in Pakistan who addresses his constituents, let alone the rest of Paksitan, on telephone. No where in the history of mankind a PM is appointed first and then elected later. Don`t you even feel a shred of shame what they have turned our beautiful country into. Military as an institution is a curse upon Pakistan. It is incumbent upon military to come clean thru the mess it had made or it will be dealt with by the people. And wrath of people is the wrath of God.

Suka

The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view.