Questioning the Hadeeth

re:#31 by ballukhan
Sorry for the belated post.
Agree with u entirely.
Sorry again if my posts sound too critical. At best, what i say may be considered a non-muslim`s viewpoint.
I interacted with a lot of muslims during my work place in New York where i did my Residency many years ago. Most were from Pakistan, Bangladesh, some from Turkey, Iran. I even met a lady from Iraq.
My best friend was from Pakistan. Some things stood out during conversations with him:
1. He often referred to the fact that muslims are losing out in this rat race and that Islam was somehow in danger. He did not elaborate how. But it was fascinating that he did not say Pakistan is losing out. He said: muslims are losing out. Again, this concept of Ummah is in the subconscious mind of every muslim.

2. He often blamed the West for all its ills. There was so much hatred mingled with envy and fascination for the Western lifestyle. It was difficult to decide which emotion predominated.
All this was before 9/11.
There was a very devout muslim lady doctor who would take time off work for her prayers. Muslims in the program demanded and got a day off during Ramadan. NO hindu ever asked for a religious holiday.
All this tells the story of a religion, a potent one, trying to adjust to modern times. If doctors found it difficult, what of the common man?
Just my thoughts.
Sridhar

#47 by Jibbe on September 2, 2004 10:24pm PT

Good work! You have the right aggression and passion to work on the important issues that have been raised by you. Looking forward to your next article.

41
(Where are the ``attempts`` to reform? In fact, seems like muslims are getting more regressive)

Iranian Young men and women are having time of their lives (sex that is) with official approval,
Recently their parliament passed bill giving women equality in inheritance and other matters.

I am surprised no one asked why Christianity has done wonders for west
regards aslam

Gibran,
it hurts, yes sure...as it did in your case. But i never thought that you will stepdown at lowest level, and start calling names.
ok again...initially when I looked at the article, I thought that you are advocating some reform, but after thoroughly reading , i came to conclusion that you are misleading others (and i wrote that in my response). And this was the thing that hurt most...look, even in gravest situations in debates (or what ever else) one should be patient and keep his/her character. calling names is a last thing, that is allowed in my dictionary for keeping contact with somebody. (these things are supposed to be taught in childhood).
i will not waste my time with a person who is on one side advicating to be a reformer of islamic society and quotes Quran and hadeeth and on the other side is so mean of character. i strongly recommend to other serious readers to avoid reading religous artciles by Mr Gibran in future.
also to owners of the site, let those people who use loose language, not write on religous topics.
--thanks

re:#36 by mohar11
What u say about Islam is tragic but true.
But a lot also depends of how u interpret the verses.
Qoran says: chop of the hand of a thief. You may interpret this in the literal sense or simply say that Qoran is telling its followers to punish a thief severely. Unfortunately, Mullahs have chosen to interpret the verses literally and not symbolically.
Consider the following verse from Bhagwat Geetha:
Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (before the Epic battle):
``Mritva va prapyasi swargam, jitva va prapyase maheem
Tasmat uthishta Bharata, yuddhaya kritanischayaha``
(If u die, u will attain the Heaven. If u win, u will enjoy the fruits of your victory. So, get ready for the Battle).
Nobody, i mean nobody well versed in scriptures has ever interpreted the above verse to mean that the Hindu religion justifies violence. Clearly, Arjuna here is being advised to do his duty without thinking of the consequences. If his duty is to go to war, then it must be done. But that does not automatically justify war just because SriKrishna has said so.

I am always fascinated by this simple, elegant religion of Islam, which says that in order to worship u just need to face towards Mecca and pray. You can`t get simpler than that.

What is it then that has made this belief system tremendously popular and problematic at the same time?
Its appeal lies in its simplicity and brotherhood among fellow worshippers. I have always found that there is a comaraderie among muslims that is lacking say among hindus from different regions/religons. Caste divides the hindu religion as nothing does.
And yet, hinduism has kept its message intact among its followers for many thousand years. This happened through reinterpretation of Vedas (Vedantas, Puranas, Itihaasas: Ramayan, Mahabharat, various commentaries by spiritual leaders to the present day). We can trash the Vedas today but we know that the same message is to be found in Itihaasas in a way common man can understand. A kind of spiritual freemarket exists in India. Nobody can just assume the role of a Pope here because people do not expect this of a great spiritual leader. Our spiritual giants (Sri Aurobindo, Ramana Maharishi etc) have lived a life of seclusion and quiet contemplation.
Islam is a politico-religious entity. Politics and religion have freely intermingled. Mullahs, by collusion with the rulers, have gained power and stature over the centuries. Common man, due to this concept of Ummah, has not objected to this but actually felt happy (why else would Pakistan deem Arabic rulers like Ghazni as heroes and name their missiles after them?). This is why Clergy is so powerful in the Islamic world. The dictator and the clergy have kind of a symbiotic relationship. It is a ``you scratch my back and i will scratch yours`` kind of philosophy.
Greatest drawback in Islam is that the Prophet Mohammed foreclosed options of any new reinterpretation of the Qoran by deeming himself to be the last Prophet. Even if a true Prophet comes and wants to reinterpret Qoran with a view of putting everything in the modern context, he will not be allowed to do so. Nay, he may not even be recognised as a Prophet and may be deemed a heretic and may face a death penalty at the hands of the Clergy.
That is why, Islam seems to have stagnated. Like a 13th century plot that has been rehashed many times but has no takers today, Islamists find that their religion has not kept pace with modernity but are not even willing to concede that.
Sridhar

re:#37 by fatbrain
We are discussing Islam. I though u might be interested in knowing why a lot of non-muslims do not know why there is so much anger in the Islamic world and are trying to speculate or rationalize the cause.
It is time muslims started having some introspection. That article was by a muslim. I am glad some people have started the process.
Sridhar

HP, digit:
I have been critical of the Iraqi invasion long before others joined the parade. So, I understand your feelings on this matter. But why can`t it be treated as a colonialist/imperialist/megalomaniac thing? Why does it have to be made a muslim affair, especially since Saddam isn`t much of a muslim? One can sympathise with Iraqi nationalists and resistant fighters, as long as they direct their attention at their aggressors and do not kill in the name of islam and islamic organisations.
I maintain that what is happening is not a clash of civilisations -not yet, anyway! At best, this is a clash of fundamentalisms, as Tariq Ali puts it. But if the muslims of the world continue to sympathise with terrorists from Chechnya to the Phillipines in the name of ummah while remaining silent about human rights abuses in places like Darfour, there is a real risk of this becoming a civilisational clash.


Romair:
``I think my life would have been far more unstable, and I would have been far less grounded, had I not had something like Islam to lean on.``

This is generally true of all people with strong faith. Also, most people are quite comfortable in their religious identities and usually go through the rituals even when they dont believe in them.

the MURDER of 12 nepalese workers cannot be justified by occupation or not. I agree a 100% with NASHA, lets leave all this Quran and Hadeeth aside for a second - what is wrong is wrong, lets not make excuses to justify MURDER.
Let us also be consistent, if the American invasion was wrong, so was Saddam`s invasion of kuwait. If the killing of Iraqis by Americans was wrong, so was the massacre of the Kurds.
I am sick and tired of Muslims always crying wolf, ``wolf wolf wolf`` shut up. what comes around goes around.
This cycle is non ending, we blame them, they blame us....it is never ending. Let us correct the WRONGS (and they are countles) - in our own societies.
What do most Muslim columnists write about - america
what do most Pakistanis discuss at homes - america and the `evils of Musharraf`

is anyone else tired of this nonsense?

asadm:

if you wish to debate something, please use rational arguments, anyone can copy and paste from google....do some studying and come up with something a little better.
the article you have copied and posted is good ... however, each and every point you have decided to raise has been countered in the article... if you have something specific please do get back to me.
- if you think i have taken the quran out of context - then you have the verses and chapters above - have a look and let me know.

- the article you have copied and posted discuss the sunnah and hadeeth - i have countered that in my article (sunnah vs hadeeth) - in it you will find details as to the differences.

- the article you have copied and pasted also reiterates the fact that these hadeeth were oral tradition for over 300 years - i have offered a rational analysis as to just how reliable oral transmission is and the problems that were faced in the Muslim community.

- the reason Bukhari and Muslim and other scholars decided to write books about hadeeth was precisely because there were so many forgeries (over 2 million hadeeth were floating around) I have written how and why.

-as for Quran, if you seriously think that it wasnt written during the time of the prophet then you have been smoking something really good - where can i get some?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quran_textual-reply.html
my friend, this is a website which counters claims made by many Christians as to the Quran and Islam....it is one of the most respected websites by Muslims, and this article shows how the Quran was compiled. It is not propoganda - read it and let me know what you think.

For all those others out there who want to backlash at the article because they dont like what Im saying - that is your own problem. its a free website!! but i challenge anyone to debate - please do not waste all our time with nonsense, come up with something good. Can someone teach this cowboy Asadm how to debate something? its absolutely pathetic how he keeps trying....dont try with your gut reaction - try with your brain!! if your brain cannot come up with something good either shut up or do some research to try to counter my points. (sigh)

Jibbe

[To a non-muslim it makes no difference whether the killer was a quranic fundamentalist or a hadithi one.]

Right, all they know is that 19 people were dead, and that somehow justifies this. Or indeed, even if they deplore the violence on all sides, somehow there is an equivalence.

[Why cant people just accept from the Quran and Hadith whatever is humane and compassionate and ignore the rest?]

Rest of what? What rest? The ``us or them`` rest? Ignore the rest that everyone else holds as their solemn and sacred right to ``defend`` their ``way of life``? Did you not just watch the republican convention? I would normally agree with you, however now is exactly not the time to think this way. We are the ``them``, and we have been declared a threat to the ``us``. Sorry, but we have no choice right about now. The last thing we Muslims need is an After-school special lecture because these poor 19 Nepalese made a very poor career choice and paid dearly for it. If some non Muslims are ignorant about the psyche of an invaded people, then so be it. I for one don`t think it`s very difficult to comprehend.

FAT ASS SAYS (SORRY I MEAN FAT BRAIN) :
``This is my first post on this site, though i have been reading on site for last 2 months.
coming to this article, Mr Gibran: let me tell you that motivers only succeed, when accomplished with right purpose. I can bet that either you have deliberately tried to mislead others, or you have been confused by someone else.
anyway, i will even ask some questions from you regarding article:
1- from where you have taken the figure 600,000 ?
2- the comparison of remembring things(shuttle mishap) and (the narrators of hadith) is a wrong analogy. ask me why ? i will tell you
3- your example of hijab, is also wrong quoted. You can find direct references in Quran.(a lot of artciles already on this topic)
4- you have failed to cite some clear examples that show contradiction of quran & hadith.``

So Fat-ASS, thinks that I have deliberately tried to manipulate Quran and Hadeeth - JUST BECAUSE HE DOSNET AGREE WITH ME....okay lets debate:
1. The figure of 600,000 is admittedly not the only number out there, there are people who say 700,000, there are people who say 400,000. Here is a website that can confirm this figure - it is an extremely ISLAMIC WEBSITE, so if you have a problem with the figure, please take it up with them. IF YOU GO TO GOOGLE, TYPE BUKHARI 600,000 - YOU WILL SEE ABOUT 300 WEBSITES POP UP, ALL ISLAMIC BASED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THIS IS THE MOST OFT QUOTED NUMBER...BUT AGAIN WE CANNOT BE 100% SURE - JUST LIKE THE HADEETH!!
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=2828
``The number of hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari is around 9,082. But without repetition this number reduces to around 2,602. This is from a total of around the some of 600,000 traditions that the Imam collected. [All the above material is from Prof. Azmi’s books.] Imam Bukhari mentions that he learnt from over 1000 sheikhs and some scholars have put the number above 1000 as 80. Every person Imam Bukhari heard a hadith from was his sheikh or teacher. ``

2. I dont have time for your asking or not, if you want to explain something....pls feel free to do so and enlighten the rest of us.

3. My friend, believe me you do not want to get into hijab and niqab

---

my next essay soon to be published on chowk will go in detail on that.....- BUT I WILL PLAY YOUR GAME, BRING FORTH YOUR PROOF FROM QURAN, PLEASE DO NOT JUST OPEN A QURAN OF YUSAF ALI AND COPY WHAT YOU HAVE READ...DO SOME RESEARCH.. MY EMAIL ADD IS BELOW THE ARTICLE - OR WE CAN DO IT ON THE POSTS...

4. I have shown two examples of contraditctions...maybe if you read more carefully, instead of jumping through the article and saying OH NO, THIS IS NOT WHAT MY MOMMY TAUGHT ME...THEREFORE ITS GOT TO BE WRONG.
Ill give you 4 e.g.
Stoning to death of adulterers - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH
Dogs said to keep angels away - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH
Killing a man for leaving Islam - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH
Banning silk and gold for men - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH.
Hijab and Niqab - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH

But you are missing the point : its not only these EXTRA laws which belong in another century - but its the whole consequences :
1. subjugation of women
2. splitting islam intos sects
3. the image of Islam
4. making Muslims into robots
5. hadeeths have been cited for extremism, conservatism

The list goes on.

MY FRIENDS - thanks for positive responses. My goal here is not to damage anyone`s faith...on the contrary I am rallying behind the Quran and questioning the hadeeth with rational arguments. I AM NOT A SCHOLAR...AND I DONT NEED TO BE ONE (NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE), LETS STOP RELYING ON THESE MULLAHS AND DO SOME STUDYING FOR OURSELVES. These issues are always difficult and can cause serious damage between even the closest friends...but lets tackle it, instead of staying shut up and listening to things like robots.
But some of you just cant accept it - dont, but if you want to debate then raise your points and we will discuss it. However, do not accuse me of being malicious....that is your own insecurity. Absolutely pathetic - anyone agree?

Jibbe

The problem in my view is not the Quran or Hadees but the sectarian taaghooti mullah and his `deen-e-fassad` which he parades and sells as Islam. People know little about Quran and Hadees. It is evident from the historic case of Illam Din, a 17 year old `tarkhaan`, who had killed a Hindu Raj Paal for publishing certain Ahadees which were considered blasphemous by the mullah. He was sentenced to death although he had denied having committed the crime. His appeal in the High Court was pleaded by no less a lawyer than the Quaide Aazam himself. The Quaid took the plea of provocation being the cause of murder. But the court did not accept the plea and held that Raj Pl had published nothing but the authentic Ahadees concerning a particular aspect of the life of the Prophet .

In the name of Islam -- 12 poor Hindus Nepalese were beheaded in such gruesome barbarous way....

in contrast to two French hostages -- in contrast to the three Indian hostages -- there was no one -- no one -- rooting for their release -- nobody was moving heaven and earth for THEIR freedom -- they have been killed in cold blood -- three Turkish Muslims have been beheaded -- two Pakistani Muslim drivers have been stabbed to death and their head cutoff from their `Muslim` bodies -- all in the name of Islam........

........right now as a Muslim I don`t feel good about myself, my Islam -- my Qoran -- my Hadith -- or my Allah......

......in fact when the chips are down -- none of these entities -- part hallucinations part indifferent cruel realities -- part rote -- part detached dehumanized philosophies -- come to the rescue of those poor hapless human beings from being slaughtered by a real version of Insane Barbarous Islam....

..... and here we are debating a one mile long article as to which one to FOLLOW -- Hadith -- or Qoran.....Qoran or Hadees --

right now the only thing we ARE ``following`` is a pure unadultrated primitive cold-blooded version of numb barbarism.....that is even less humane than even the Wildest of the CARNIVORS ......

........we Muslims have become the `FOLLOWING` scourge of the civilized world......

.........can we just for a second -- QUIT ``FOLLOWING ISLAM`` in our twisted imaginations -- and `FOLLOW` -- LITTLE BITS and pieces of SIMPLE DECENT HUMANITY.........and SEE how we fare....like ordinary human beings -- instead of SOME KNIFE WEILDING -- foaming mouthed -- Bearded MONSTERS.....

...can we Muslims BE -- just like any other -- run of the mill -- ORDINARY human beings....with feelings and concerns -- for another human being -- of another race, another ethnicity, another religion, another color, another region, another country -- and another sect of our own community......?

........what IS wrong with us the `FOLLOWERS`....the `BELIEVERS` ...what do we really BELIEVE in -- if NOT in the SANCTITY of Human Life......

hasan

Read Gibran and explain how Sunnah and hadith differ and by the way incase you havnt noticed most Westerners use the Quran and selected verses, much like you have, to spread their propoganda. All this without knowing the context of the verse or the verses before and after.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/HADITH.HTM:
While the principle revelatory text in Islamic tradition is the Qur`an , the entire life of the prophet Muhammad is regarded in Islamic tradition as a source of revelation and truth. Islamic tradition holds that Muhammad, like other prophets, had a purified soul and so led a perfectly exemplary life. Not only should Muslims follow the truth revealed to Muhammad, they should also turn to his actions and his own sayings (as opposed to his recitation of God`s speech). The ``example of the prophet,`` contained in both actions and speech, is known as the Sunnah and has an authority in Islam nearly equivalent to that of the Qur`an . The Sunnah is the second major source of Islamic sacred law, or Shari`ah, with the first being the Qur`an itself. In both the formulation of the Shari`ah and in Islamic tradition in general, it is the sayings of Muhammad, or hadith, that are especially important. These were orally transmitted during the lifetime of the prophet and for several generations afterwards; they were finally collected in the eighth century into a group of six canonical books called ``The Six Books.`` The sayings collected in these books constitute the authentic sayings of the prophet and have a high religious and social authority in Islamic tradition. There are, however, other sayings collected in other books that various Islamic traditions hold to be as authentic as The Six Books, but there is no universal agreement throughout Islam on their authenticity. Shi`ite Muslims, however, have a separate collection of sayings and do not recognize the authenticity of all the sayings collected in The Six Books.


While the Qur`an is simply a text that Muhammad repeated—having received the verses from God through the mediation of the angel Gabriel—the hadith are various sayings that Muhammad made on his own. Islamic tradition divides the hadith into two types: the hadith nabawi , which are sayings that Muhammad made on his own, and the hadith qudsi , which are sayings that Muhammad made through divine inspiration. Only a very few of the hadith are divine sayings; the overwhelming majority are hadith nabawi .

The sayings of Muhammad cover every imaginable subject, from religion and theology, to marriage, economics, government, ethics, law, ritual, and a host of other social issues.

Every saying of the prophet comes with an account as to its genuineness. In order to be a genuine hadith, there must be a clear of transmission from Muhammad to the writing down of the hadith. The hadith sometimes pass through many auditors before they`re written down; the length or nature of that line of transmission (called isnab in Arabic) affects the authenticity of the hadith. The form of a hadith, then, is always preceded by an account of the transmission of the saying and then the content of the saying itself.

And if you need more information read go here
http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usc.edu%2Fdept%2FMSA%2Ffundamentals%2Fhadithsunnah%2Fscienceofhadith%2Fatit.html

or

www.islamicity.com

or

www.islamicfinder.com

Dost-mittar #39: ``More seriously, to a non-muslim the whole debate is somewhat amusing``

You seem to be having a tough time figuring out why Muslims think and behave a certain way. I doubt you will ever be able to figure it out. Specifically because you are not a Muslim, yourself. You are trying to understand the taste of something, that you have never eaten. Which is impossible to do. That, of course, does not make the debate wrong. It just makes it wrong for you.

Islam has a certain type of attraction to many people, which is hard to explain. This is probably why hardly any Muslim ever switches religions, including Muslims who are Islam`s biggest critics. I am personally very attracted to it. No because I was born a Muslim. But, only after I have studied and analysed it. I cannot imagine my life, without Islam. It does not answer all my questions, and does create some confusions. But it answers a hell of a lot more than anything else I have been able to get my hands on.

At the same time, I cannot think of anything in life that I have been left behind in, due to my religious beliefs. I don`t think it has locked me into any, ``illogical`` or inhumane practice. Quite the contrary. I think my life would have been far more unstable, and I would have been far less grounded, had I not had something like Islam to lean on.

There are millions to hundreds of millions of other people who will tell you the same thing. They will continue to think in this manner, until someone can provide them a better alternative. Not by calling them fools, but by actually providing them something else that appeals to them........

Come writers and critics who prophecize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide the chance won`t come again
And don`t speak too soon for the wheel`s still in spin
And there`s no tellin` who that it`s namin`
For the loser now will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin`..............

#39 by dost-mittar

DM-
Though the general perception is that those killers are Islamic fundamentalist but what if they are just Iraqi nationalist? We also need to think whether those murderers are doing the dirty deed for Islam or for Iraq? However, in whatever name that was, it was gross and should be condemned vigorously. I don’t understand the logic of killing Nepalese? “woh naa teen main na tera main”. Did the Nepalese govt. refuse to pay money like all other governments are doing including India and France? Iraq is a lawless country right now. The occupation is confined to only certain areas of Baghdad and criminals are also taking advantage of the situation.

Unfortunately, this would not stop until the occupying forces leave that country. The US has created another monster Al-Sadr in that area and let’s see, if he can serve his US masters well!

I agree with Sameer on topic. This is ridiculous and utter waste of time and energy to discuss some thing that has no value in the current environments. These debates were okay in the medieval periods when semi-literates have nothing better to do in mosques in many Arab cities. Muslim in the subcontinent have always accepted Hadith part of the Islamic traditions and this debate only shows that Pakistani are being drowned in the sea of futility in the name of religion.