Questioning the Hadeeth

38
//..If attempts to reform islam are successful .../

Where are the ``attempts`` to reform? In fact, seems like muslims are getting more regressive.

````Do they not consider the Quran with care, if it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many discrepancies.`` (Quran 4:82) ``

...and if someone points out any discrepancies, inconsistencies, etc., will it prove that the Quran is not a word of God or that the one pointing out the discrepancies is a blasphemist?

More seriously, to a non-muslim the whole debate is somewhat amusing: To the Nepalis kafirs who were zibah-ed, what difference does it make whether their beheading was halal according to the quran or hadith. To a non-muslim it makes no difference whether the killer was a quranic fundamentalist or a hadithi one.

Why cant people just accept from the Quran and Hadith whatever is humane and compassionate and ignore the rest? Most of the muslims I know do so in their daily lives any way.

hi,
this is my first post on this site, though i have been reading on site for last 2 months.
coming to this article, Mr Gibran: let me tell you that motivers only succeed, when accomplished with right purpose. I can bet that either you have deliberately tried to mislead others, or you have been confused by someone else.
anyway, i will even ask some questions from you regarding article:
1- from where you have taken the figure 600,000 ?
2- the comparison of remembring things(shuttle mishap) and (the narrators of hadith) is a wrong analogy. ask me why ? i will tell you
3- your example of hijab, is also wrong quoted. You can find direct references in Quran.(a lot of artciles already on this topic)
4- you have failed to cite some clear examples that show contradiction of quran & hadith.

And to #21(sridhar)...
why do`nt hindus never leave a chance to attack islam ? i mean look at the topic, and look what you have copied in a long long paragraph...pity

-fatbrain

Gibran
Good article
We are all enjoying the fruits of western ( Christian) civilisation , this civilisation may never have risen at all had it not been for reformed Christianity, it did wonders for west and still does. Because church is an important pillar of civil society.

Reformation nearly took place in Islam in middle ages due to rampant Christianity it didn’t proceed. If attempts to reform islam are successful it would do wonders for the muslim world.

Regards
aslam

21/sridhar
//..Does Islam preach that it is OK to behead or kill someone in the name of religion?..//

I think it does. There is this verse in koran which says something like ``Lay in wait for kufrs and idolators, ambush them and kill them, burn their villages....blah blah``. I am paraphrasing of course.

See that`s why mass murderers and violent conquerors are always held in high esteem and regarded as heros in islamic world - because they followd Islamic directions in letter and spirit.

Islam is an exclusivist religion amd muslims in general are an exclusivist people -``you are either one of us or you are a kufr``. So when they say Islam is religion of peace and brotherhood - they mean brotherhood of muslims and peace among them. They don`t include people who are outside of Islam. There have been some attempts to reform such mindset, like sufism, but such reforms have always been on the fringe.

+++
//..Modern day mullahs look at the hadith written many centuries ago and tell the common man how to behave, how to conduct himself/herself...//

There is no point blaming mullahs - i think that`s just a cop out. See - mullahs, priests, pundits, popes - they are always like that and they will remain so, because that is their training and that is their raison-d-eter. I mean - Pope accepted earth is round only recently and even now he has orders against family-planning and what not ... Dogma is their livelihood.

It`s the people who make the difference - they see thru the charade and they reject the dogma - they reject the priestly class - they rally behind reformers - they evolve. Just like it happened in Christian world. Just like it happened in Hindu world. Such reformation has happened in almost all major religions in the world.

Except, of course, Islam.

If today you say Vedas are bullsh!t (most of it are, I think) - then you will live. If a christian denounces bible (many do) he lives - in fact he is considered a ``progressive``. But if muslim does something similar ... well forget mullahs, it`s the ``average`` abdul who will jump at his throat at the first chance ... and the muslim elite will sit there and applaud.

The point is - an ideology which forbids internal dissent will be much less inclined to form brotherhood with external groups. Islam is a system which is inherently handicapped in this regard.

an amusing battle betwenn the two improbables....

This was very boring, very long and thoughtless article for me to read. Muslims who can read and write (educated) are not getting over the infatuation with thir religion and seriously believing that Islam was the best thing ever happened to mankind. Rest of the world discuss religion in religion-related forums and websites but Muslims bring it to every forum they interact.

This is thoughtless and useless exercise because even if authenticity of hadeesis are confirmed, the various schools and people would not stop them interpreting in their own interest just as quranic verses are interpreted differently by different schools of thoughts. You will still be facing same problems such as, ``did god meant to beat your wives lightly?``.

Why it matters that hadees, ``seek knowledge even if you have to go to China`` is authentic or not. Muslims are behind in education compared to all other religions and that is a fact. The reason beind least educated religion has nothing to do with the authenitcity of the hadees, which probably all schools consider authentic.

Let me present three hadeesis from memory of my 9th grade Islamic studies course and interpret them as plainly and straightforwardly as possible.

1. ``Those amongst you are better who read quran and teach it to others``.

There was almost no writing of quran for widespread use during Mohammed`s life, so reading is to be taken as reading from memorization and teaching it in memorization way to others. Fine. How many people he assigned to memorize and teach? How many from his own family and close firends? How many of those so-called ``better`` people ended up in his close circle of friends? Did he practice memorizing himself, what he asked others to do? How often did he read material revealed to him 2, 3, 5 years before? How will authenticating this hadees make any difference whatsoever today?

2. ``inna mal amalo bin niyyat - the reward (by allah) is based on intentions (convictions)``

How the hell one knows about intentions and deeper convictions of another person? So you can not call a person bad because you dont know his/ her ntentions and convictions - only allah knows. There you have it. You dont know the intentions of Stalin, Hitler, Gandhi, Jinnah, or any person for that matter. Here Mantolives has been trying to prove for 3 years that Jinnah did great thing for making Pakistan but only allah knows if he actually did great things and would be rewarded accordingly. Basically we should stop calling any person good or bad and in order to do that more effectively stop talking, discussing and debating anything that involved other human beings.

3. ``al rashi wal murtashi finn naar - bribe giver and bribe taker are both going to hell``

Think about it. Is there a person who has never given 5, 10, 100 rupees to get a better seat, to policemen in Pakistan, to tax collectors, to postmen, to custom people,........MQM gets bhatta and people give it to them in Karachi, people give money and people take money in a variety of bribing manners. Dating, with man paying the bill is also a bribe and female is taking it. Almost everybody sometime during life bribes without thinking of it as a bribe. So all Pakistanis, not just poeple taking bribes from CIA, all non-Muslims (for not believing in the last prophet, or god) are going to hell according to this hadees. What is the point left than practicing rest of the tiresome, time consuming dogma and rituals for Muslims or anybody else if you are hellbound? Why are then Muslims so much against alcohol consuming and pork eating, if by virtue of bribing sometime during life, you are hellbound? Wait a minute but you are asked to pray for forgiveness to change god`s merciful mind. So why not do whatever pleases you and then every night before going to bed just ask for forgiveness from merciful god?

As you can see, all of this is abolutely illogical and keeps one going around and around for nothing.

And you thnik that authentication of this stuff is important? Get real, man!

What is the purpose of Islam?
Here is the answer:

Nepalese Riot After Killings in Iraq
Thousands Chant `Down With Islam` in Protesting Slayings
Reuters
Thursday, September 2, 2004;

KATMANDU, Nepal, Sept. 1 -- Thousands of demonstrators stormed the main mosque in Katmandu on Wednesday and charged through the streets of the capital chanting ``Down with Islam`` in protest of the killing of 12 Nepalese hostages in Iraq.

The crowds set furniture and carpets on fire and tore up a copy of the Koran before police drove them out........

Dear Nazaryat

If you had read the article - you would have realized that our viewpoints are incohesion. This article isnt about being a good or bad Muslim - Im not a Mulla or a scholar and Im not worried about anyone`s salvation!
Many problems that exist in the Muslim world - intolerance, supression of women and division are all a consequence of this unreliable science of hadeeth. To solve a problem you have to get to the root, just as the so called war on terror is a bunch of nonsense because unless you can identify what motivates the terrorists - you can never completely `win`.
After Sept 11, people in America forgot to ask one question - WHY????
Since we are not Americans, let us focus on our own societies - so people say WHY? Why poverty, Why instability? Why extremism? Its not all the fault of the Jews (somebody tell Echobbom) - lets take responsibility and work to make things better! This is my humble contribution.

Asadm says:
``You believe in the Quran which was sent through the Prophet (pbuh) but you don’t believe in his hadith? How is that possible? I mean the Quran did not come down as written text and it was not even compiled in book form till several years later, primarily because people memorized it and believed that writing the word of Allah with human hands was sacrilegious. You have written this huge article using selective quotes from the Quran which suit your cause. Are you ashamed of being Muslim? Do you pray five times a day? Do you give zakat? Or do these also need to be examined with the hadith``

Is this joker who does not even know how the Quran was compiled defending hadeeth? I do not wish to debate a man who wants to use his gut reaction as his stated facts. My friend, read the article....i have pointed out difference between sunnah and hadeeth, i have also gone in detail as to how they were collected. i have also pointed out the consequences.
As for people being afraid to collect Quran - what a bunch of nonsense - i suggest you need to do some research before you come up with garbage like that!!

Gibran Bham

For those who are interested in how some Christians and Jews have used hadeeth to spread lies about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, pls take a few minutes to visit this site

www.prophetofdoom.net

its absolutely amazing, he has used hadeeth from tarbari, Bukhari and other obscure sources to paint a picture which is unheard off, malicious and hate filled.

Please do not mistake the above to be an anti-Jew or anti - Christian message, there are malicous people in all faiths, however, it is important for Muslims to realize the extent to which hadeeth were manipulated and the lies that have been spread citing it.

#21 by rsridhar on September 1, 2004 9:56pm PT

I also agree with NHK Saheb. We need to be good humans first and condemn the gruesome murder of the 12 innocent nepalese with the same passion we hold against the American occupation of Iraq.
But the issues raised by Gibran are also very pertinent in the present context and is the first step towards rejection of the dangerous literalists like Maulana Maududi. I hope these issues are taken in the right spirit and are not allowed to be buried again by those who shout the loudest and raise the bogey of Islam-in-danger.

True story: there was once a great prophet who taught great things and after he left this earth, his followers passed along his teachings through oral methods. Nearly two hundred years later, these were compiled in the forms of books called gospels. There were nearly seventeen hundred gospels written – all with different texts, teachings, often one contradicting others - but the council of Nicea in Rome decided that only four would be adopted into the official church teachings......

Gibran, can you let me know the source of this story?

Thanks

Again as usual Gibran I appreciate the sentiment behind this Article, but I am confused as to the premise of the call of moderation you seem to voicing in it. Isnt this one sided Moderation. The bourgeosie questioning a culture to advance primarily to meet up with the overwhelming capitalist culture of the world. This is a crucial juncture in our history, where we have turned around and are righteously asking the questions about the most basic tenets of our religion. The manifestation that through our worldy outlook, we have somehow grown wiser than centuries of evolution of the thought of men. I am all for moderation and modernising, but will it transform us into someone who we will not recognise anymore, unless we wear the glasses of another culture.

Is this the Final Lap?

Dear Gibran,
The Quran says that God is Most Gracious and Most Merciful. What are the other attributes of God according to it? For eg: Does the Quran say that he is omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipresent? Is he jealous (as in the old testament)? Did he create man in his own image, i.e, he is humaniform? I ask you because you seem to be a scholar of Islam.

Thanks,

Gibran,

Would you like to quote some hadeeth which are in contrast to Quran? It would be better if you do so.