Questioning the Hadeeth

sattar2: i see my name being taken in vain! ha! ha! you claim that ``and Tahmed fell for this claim``

Would you care to cut and paste my response based on which you make this claim that I fell for your cleverness, o great genius and trickster??

echoboom #11 I see the chamcha of the Great Prophet Maududi (the one who is further removed from islam than the ahmedis whom he condemns), the one whose life revolves around proving himself to be non-slave to goras, is delighted to present some pictures where there are gora faces listening to the Great Mullah whatshisface. If you had half a brain, you would see the irony in this.

Are you questioning the hadith? You believe in the Quran which was sent through the Prophet (pbuh) but you don’t believe in his hadith? How is that possible? I mean the Quran did not come down as written text and it was not even compiled in book form till several years later, primarily because people memorized it and believed that writing the word of Allah with human hands was sacrilegious. You have written this huge article using selective quotes from the Quran which suit your cause. Are you ashamed of being Muslim? Do you pray five times a day? Do you give zakat? Or do these also need to be examined with the hadith. By the way where do you find the Sunnah of the Rasool (PBUH) if not through the hadith?
And what’s the whole deal with this sudden attack of moderation? Moderation seems to be the new Pakistani buzz word. Moderate this moderate that enlighten this enlighten that.

Gibram: I am sure this is an interesting article. Must admit I have not read it as yet. I thought I would light a little fire on the rear of the clown echosqueeeeeeek and the overclever sattar2.

re: this article
Simply beautiful!
I like the following:
``My friends, if God wanted to dictate our daily lives, then he could have done so by revealing volumes and volumes of the Quran. Yet the Quran is deliberately vague as to the details of rituals, daily activities and never seems to come across as imposing in any particular sense. Has anyone considered that maybe God is not meant to be a babysitter...``
God also has left the passages vague because he knows that as society evolves, values change, customs change. He seemed to have enough faith in mankind to think that they will evolve with the times!
I now see why Islam is so problematic in this day and age.
Hadith is based on the Prophet`s teachings on various aspects of life. Modern day mullahs look at the hadith written many centuries ago and tell the common man how to behave, how to conduct himself/herself. They do not interpret the teachings of the prophet based on the context. Mullahs even go to the extent of speculating what Prophet would have done in so and so situation even if the Prophet had never been in such a situation! No wonder, Islam is caught in a time warp.

``There was tolerance with the non Muslims, there was education and there was unity. There were people who strived to be better human beings. These are the keys to success, not extremism, not corruption and not die hard conservatism.``
Wise words.
It bothers me as a non-muslim to hear the news of some Nepalese workers killed (beheaded?) in Iraq because they were not muslims and the perpetrators of the crime wanted to punish them. Have the clerics in Egypt, Saudi Arabia or any other muslim country condemned this crime? Is this not a crime against Islam itself? Does Islam preach that it is OK to behead or kill someone in the name of religion?
Muslims seem to find glory in their past. Their heroes are also perpetrators of great crimes against humanities.
Read the following Url to know what i mean:
LETTER FROM LONDON: Demons from the past —Irfan Husain
(http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=401745

Excerpts:

1. ``The reason I mention this period of history is to try and understand the bitterness that must exist in many Hindu minds over the Muslim conquest of their country. In his Story of Civilisation, Will Durant writes: “The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest in history”. While historical events should be judged in the context of their times, it cannot be denied that even in that bloody period of history, no mercy was shown to the Hindus unfortunate enouh to be in the path of either the Arab conquerors of Sindh and south Punjab, or the Central Asians who swept in from Afghanistan.

The Muslim heroes who figure larger than life in our history books committed some dreadful crimes. Mahmud of Ghazni, Qutb-ud-Din Aibak, Balban, Mohammed bin Qasim, and Sultan Mohammad Tughlak, all have blood-stained hands that the passage of years has not cleansed. Indeed, the presence of Muslim historians on their various campaigns has ensured that the memory of their deeds will live long after they were buried.

Seen through Hindu eyes, the Muslim invasion of their homeland was an unmitigated disaster. Their temples were razed, their idols smashed, their women raped, their men killed or taken slaves. When Mahmud of Ghazni entered Somnath on one of his annual raids, he slaughtered all 50,000 inhabitants. Aibak killed and enslaved hundreds of thousands. The list of horrors is long and painful.``

2. ``These conquerors justified their deeds by claiming it was their religious duty to smite non-believers. Cloaking themselves in the banner of Islam, they claimed they were fighting for their faith when, in reality, they were indulging in straightforward slaughter and pillage.

3. ``One irony, of course, is that contrary to their wishful thinking, the vast majority of Muslims in the subcontinent have more Hindu blood in their veins than there is Arab, Afghan, Turkish or Persian blood. Many of the invaders took Hindu wives and concubines. And many Hindus converted to Islam to further their military or civil service careers. As a result of this intermingling, despite proud boasts of pure bloodlines, most Pakistanis have many Hindu ancestors.

This reality makes the Hindu-Muslim divide all the more bitter, for it pits brother against brother.``
So, Islam, in the subcontinental context, has divided a great culture into Islamic Pakistan (that denies everything that India owns) and a non-islamic India. This also has become the very basis of friction between the 2 communities. Indian hindus are willing to embrace the 100 million or more muslims and other diverse cultures but Pakistan would have nothing of the sort and will only accept what is Islamic.
Here then is Islam at its worst. If it is a religion of brotherhood, does it then only preach brotherhood and love only among its adherents to the exclusion of others? What kind of religion would that be then?
Also, why do muslims consider their bloody past glorious? Because it made some muslim rulers gloriour in victory? How does that automatically transfer glory to the general populace?
Most hindus would say that India`s glorious past was when Ashoka ruled India. This great king renounced warfare as a means of statecraft after the bloody Kalinga war, adopted Buddhism as a state religon (and most hindus have no problem with that either) and ushered in an era of peace. Hindus would not associate any violent acts of the past as glorious. Even though our scriptures are full of violence (the Epic war in Mahabharata being one such eg), no glory is attached to them. Violence is never preached even though our scriptures say that it is OK to defend righteousness with violence if necessary.
Why do muslim clergy preach violence at the drop of hat even while claiming Islam is a religion of peace? Why do they defend violent acts like the recent killings of innocent Nepalese or women and children in bus in Hazra? This is what non-muslims cannot understand.
Sridhar

Two generations of excess petroleum products seems to have given some people the opportunity to waste a lot of time and energy. Once they are back to earning a living by whatever other means, matters shall setlle down.

Till then, each person to his or her own interpretations.

Good luck.

Gibran

I have no problem with your article. It is your opinion. This post is out of context.

It is time the Muslim countries got togather and did something about the terrorists who killed these 12 poor innocent Nepalese in Iraq. What had Nepal or these innocent people done to be treated like this?

And instead of going into the intricacies of Islam and its laws, I wish the Muslims spent more time preaching others to be just good human beings.

And left the aspect of being a good Muslim or no-Muslim to the Divine.

NHK

Dear Urstruly and Echoboom.

This is recent report by RAND. If you havent read it, please do read it.


http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1716/MR1716.pdf

Its 88 pages, but very interesting. Just read the suggestions/recommendation in the end of it atleast.

Regards.

Gibran- religion ,any religion which starts governing a major portion of peoples lives,and people start worshipping it-is in my opinion a case of mass Stockholm Syndrome.
We have been down the moderation road a million times and I have found here before that even for moderate people,the raison-de-artre for moderation seems to come for Quran.What I am interested in-and what if anybody else can throw light on -What is the ethnography of religious fascism?It is very necessary to find out the root causes,till then I dont think discussion is going to lead us anywhere.
``..educated Muslims should not argue for another extreme..``
This appears to me as a good point,though debatable.I think that only n extreme intolerance of intolerance is going to take us anywhere,but I am not too sure about that,maybe you are right.

Quran, Hadith, Blah , blah, blah....... isn`t there something productive to talk about ? A mind is a productive thing ..... to waste on such stupidity is to make a total waste of it.

URSTRULY:
A good move in the right direction. Torpedoe the damn thing. Those who want to learn such basic stuff they must go to a madressa & not try to their get psychoanalysis done for free.

That too, by sounding cocky & moderate.

---

The ultimate site about Mirza kazzab mardood.

http://alhafeez.org/rashid


Read about those who have abandoned the Kazzab mission.[ the most influential in the cabal , during the last couple of years]. Read about the reversal of fortunes in Africa.

Next time just look-up and reply. It is that easy.Good job being done by anti-quadiani/ahmaddiya movement all over the world.

This is the AIDS-type virus implanted by the crusading dogooders as a comic/tragic attempt to invade muslims.

also:

http://alhafeez.org

URSTRULY:
P.S: A good move in the right direction. torpedoe the damn postulates by the illiterates.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re Malik (#8):

You read my earlier posts … but failed to grasp the context. This is typical of a mindless jamaati … although I am flattered that you read my posts so carefully.

The quotes you provided are from a discussion with Tahmed … who was arguing that Ahmadis believe in a fake prophet (Mirza Sahib). I was commenting that … Tahmed’s line of reasoning would also suggest that Muhammad was merely an illiterate arab who claimed to be a prophet, and Tahmed fell for this claim. In short, it is absurd for him to apply one criterion to Muhammad … and another to Mirza Sahib.

Read and think before jumping to idiotic conclusions. I argued on basis of Quran and reason that institution of prophethood is to continue ... and nowhere does Quran suggest otherwise. Re-read the thread in question to see where you lost it.

Some good points have been raised. THe epistemological issues of facts getting distorted in oral communication of hearsay, the political issues surrounding compilation of the hadeeth, the issues regarding rejection of some of the oral communications and the criteria, re-conciliation of contemporary human rights/woman rights/ gay rights etc with the hadeeth, violence towards oneself and others and its justification, breakdown of original Islam into sects etc. etc.

Let us hope we all put our minds in a constructive discussion of the issues than in condemning the author who raised them.

this is what gives jitters to secularists, atheists, murtids, munaafiques , quadiani/ahmadis.

If you are not one of these, you`ll not go bonkers.