Questioning the Hadeeth

sri, tahmed,

Dudes, you took the words right out of my mouth.

We could also point out sarcastically that carpet bombing/shelling grozny from 10k feet with fuel-explosive weapons and causing the death of 10`s of thousands of Chechens (knowing full bloody well that there were scores of women and children in city) was also ``brave``.

Bunch of loosers on both sides there...

#63 by tahmed32

``sri: this was truly a criminal act - attacking schoolchildren. and 10 of them were arabs who were obviously there to create trouble only, just as they did in afghanistan. ``

typical sand N***ers.

Re tahmed (#20, 23):

… looks like your moral anxieties are closing in on you once again … or perhaps you simply need a Prozac refill to calm you down.

You ask me … “Would you care to cut and paste my response based on which you make this claim that I fell for your cleverness…”

You misread my comment (sigh). My comment stated that you fell for Muhammad’s claims [which is different from you falling for my cleverness]. Re-read my post to Malik99. Got it, Mr. smarty pants?

Try to keep things in proper context, without jumping to immature conclusions.

rsridhar,

LOL, so hindus didn`t have the gumption to stand up and simply ask for what every other people do...celebrate religious holidays. Is this something to be proud of? You should be ashamed....not all take pleasure or pride in being obsequious...;-)

``Islam is a politico-religious entity. Politics and religion have freely intermingled. Mullahs, by collusion with the rulers, have gained power and stature over the centuries.``

Incorrect. All temporal power resided with sultans, kings, etc. Religous ``mullahs`` served the role as judges and intellectual policy advisors (to put it familiar and perhaps generous terms). Mullahs do not represent a priestly class. This is a rather laugable and ignorant analogy people tend to make. They were from the liety, and educated for the role. Never mind what you think of the education...it`s their role that I`m talking about.


``This is why Clergy is so powerful in the Islamic world. The dictator and the clergy have kind of a symbiotic relationship. It is a ``you scratch my back and i will scratch yours`` kind of philosophy. ``

The clergy has NO power in the Islamic world, except the domain of family law. Religious leaders are usually vetted by the leaders, and so represent the government line quite closely.

The BJP (being religous Hindu`s) had infinitely more power than any Mullah had....other than Iran perhaps.

vertex:
``We could also point out sarcastically that carpet bombing/shelling grozny from 10k feet with fuel-explosive weapons and causing the death of 10`s of thousands of Chechens (knowing full bloody well that there were scores of women and children in city) was also ``brave``.``

It is this kind of attitude which is going to get that idiot Bush reelected!
While we must condemn bombings from 10k feet [btw, not too many of my muslim friends on chowk joined me in condemning americans doing so in Serbia!] there is no moral equivalence in the barbaric acts of individuals deliberately killing innocent children and the unavoidable killings of innocents by professional soldiers obeying the orders of their govt.

All such acts do is to convince Americans that there is indeed a war against terror and that Bush-Chenny are justified in killing barbarians who kill in the name of religion.

sri #66 while i share your disgust with the brutal attack on schoolchildren by the terrorists, i also am disgusted with your high and mighty racial slurs about arabs. it is so obvious that you are simply trying to mimic what you think is the way westerners speak - when in fact most westerners (other than the illiterate losers who would have similar slurs for desis) dont use such racist language. so get a bloody personality of your own.

sattar #65 So THAT`s what you meant. So sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes, indeed, I believe the prophet Muhammed was honest in what he said and was not making it up. And my belief is based on the fact that the Quran clearly limits Muhammed`s role in society to that of being a ``warner``. If he was a self-serving man, this would not be the case.

Also, I ``fell`` for his message, because the message (as conveyed in the Quran, NOT as conveyed by mullahs and pirs and hadith writers and other quacks) makes good sense, teaches respect for life (unlike the bloodthirsty devils who kill in the name of what they call ``islam``) and other positive things (honesty, for example) that are ignored by the ritual mongerers.

A great Muslim of today. One of those who doesn`t kow-tow to the Western-thugs. In fact delivers stinging blows to them.

The drooling dog(PM) of United-Satans did not attend the Shoora-Hamdard UMMAH conference. He suddenly found time to be busy.

Joke of a joke: Its been reported in `the News` The drooling dog of the United-Satans gave permission for this conference.

No wonder the baighairat is a fcking moderate.

[ always use this word with contempt & derision so as to express its true meaning]

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Mahathir spells out reasons for Challenges to Ummah
Pakistan Times Staff Report

KARACHI: Malaysia`s ex-Prime Minister of Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad has said the Muslim Ummah confronts challenges because it has strayed from the basic and true teachings of Islam.

``It is our fault and not the fault of our religion, it is for us to correct these faults,`` he remarked while delivering a keynote address at an international conference on ``Muslim Ummah in the Modern World: Challenges and Opportunities`` at a local hotel on Friday.

The three-day moot is being held under the auspices of the Shura Hamdard Pakistan and sponsored by Hamdard Foundation Pakistan.

The Challenges

Mahathir was of the view that the challenges facing the Muslim Ummah at this stage of modern civilization are too numerous to list. ``They will probably depress us because there are so many and so seemingly insoluble.``

They all have but one single origin. And that is in our confusion over the different interpretations of the one single Islamic religion that was brought by the Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him), he added.

Mahathir pointed out that today we see the Sunnis and the Shias both vehemently maintaining that they are Muslims, but they fight and kill each other because each accuse the other of not being Muslims. Yet the world, the non-Muslims consider both sects as Muslims and do not differentiate between them, condemning both for being guilty of terrorism.

He said ``we know that our religion tells us that it is a sin for a Muslim to kill another Muslim but we justify our action by claiming that the person or people we kill are not Muslim, not true Muslims according to our own interpretations.``

``We pass judgement on their faith even though they bear witness to the oneness of Allah and to The Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him).``

Injunctions of Islam

``In the meantime we neglect the other injunctions of Islam. No religion has stressed the need to acquire knowledge as Islam does. The first message of Allah to Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was `Iqra`,`` the former Malaysian premier added.

He said that the early Muslims were learned not just about religion but about other fields of knowledge as well.

They did not question where the knowledge came from, whether it was from heathens or Christians of Jewish sources. They did not question the nationality of the scholars who pioneered the studies. They learnt the languages of these scholars, acquired the knowledge, translated them into Arabic, researched and added to the body of knowledge that they had acquired.

Mahatir pointed out that the Muslims were strong in their defence capabilities. And this too is in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Quran that Muslims must be capable of defending themselves and instilling fear in the enemy. But later came the new interpretations of Islam who condemned learning and acquisition of knowledge other than those about the religion.

The former Malaysian Premier said that Islam is a way of life, and politics, social affairs and economic affairs cannot be separated from religious affairs. The separation of state from religion is not possible in Islam. The state must obey the injunctions of the religion but not necessarily ruled only by those well-versed in religion.

Furthermore, it is not the form of government that is important but rather than the Muslim government should be led by competent administrators, should be strong, should be just, should have the capability to cope with the changing times.

There is nothing to say that Muslim societies and Muslim countries should recreate the life and the environment that existed at the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) before it can be considered as Islamic or before it can survive or prosper. Islam is for all times.

Of the Deviations

Dr. Mahathir said that because of the deviations from the teachings of Islam, because of the differing interpretations and confusion they cause the Muslims have become backward, weak and unable to deal with the multitude of challenges, they now face. Muslims are being oppressed and massacred by their enemies and even more by fellow Muslims.

He said that the true challenge facing the Muslim Ummah in the modern world is to speak the truth, to admit that they have strayed from the original and fundamental teachings of Islam.

A Powerful Force

The former premier said that the religion is a powerful force in Islam and many want to avail themselves of this force for their own ends. ``But despite this we must not weaken the influence of religion on the way of life that we life lead.

Instead we must use this powerful force. But we must use it according to those basic teachings of Islam over which we do not differ.``

He stated that it cannot be that Islam is the cause of our failures and misfortunes. ``It must be because we have deviated from true teachings of Islam.``

Earthly Ambitions

Dr. Mahathir said ``surely if we discard the earthly ambitions of our sects and our sectarian leaders and reunite as Muslims, if we go back to the fundamental teaching of Islam as preached by the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) as found in Hold Quran and the verified Hadiths, and we practice these teachings,surely if we acquire all the knowledge there is in this world, whatever may be the source, we hone our skills to Islamic moral values in the applications of these knowledge to strengthen ourselves, to build the capacity to defend the Ummah and our religion, we develop our countries with the wealth that Allah has showered on us, we practise charity not only towards the Muslims but also the non-Muslims, we govern and rule ourselves and our people with justice foremost in our minds as enjoined by Islam.

``Surely if we set aside the esoteric interpretations which divide us then we must be able to overcome most of the challenges facing us in this modern world,`` Mahathir added.

He said ``we shall all be well-equipped with the knowledge and the skills to administer and develop our countries, to strengthen them with the defence capability that we are enjoined by our religion to have and to dedicate ourselves to the service of Islam and the Ummah. We should find common grounds between our different sects and disregard or tolerate the differences so that we could be united again and strong.``

Ms Sadia Rashid

Earlier, the President of Hamdard Foundation Pakistan Ms. Sadia Rashid presented the welcome address. Maj. Gen. (Retd) Ghulam Umar spoke about the aims and objectives of the conference.●

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while at it visiting this great instituition (site) & the honest, courageous and dedicated muslims running it.

www.hamdard.edu.pak

........... it doesn`t matter whether you believe in the hadith or not ..... as long as you believe in an all powerful moon god who replaced all those other little gods who once shared space in the kaaba, you are in going to be a pain in the collective keister of mankind .......... not unlike those who believe that that their virile god descended from the heavens to impregnate a poor virgin, or those who believe their god caused instantaneous combustion and parted seas to let people cross over to the promised land .............and let us not even talk about gods with elephant proboscises who rode around on rodents .............as long as you believe in the rubbish that is doled out on scrolls and tablets and palm leaves, we are in deep doodoo ........... actually it doesn`t really matter what koranmaniacs, mohammed fans and other nonentities on the chowk think............... what is really scary is that there is an arab out there in a cave waiting for instructions from god while a texan in the white house is waiting for instructions from his son .......... this father-son act is killing us !

The Pew Research Center did a worldwide survey on topics related to religions. Following are some of the results: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_impo.htm

1. The percentage of the public who considered religion important

Top five:

Senegal 97%
Indonesia 95%
Nigeria 92%
India 92%
Pakistan 91%

Bottom five:

Russia 14%
Bulgaria 13%
Japan 12%
France 11%
Czech Republic 11%

So % of adults for whom religion is important rates India fourth highest in the world and Pakistan fifth.

2. ``More American adults consider religion much more important than do the citizens of all other industrialized states. ``Americans’ views are closer to people in developing nations than to the publics of developed nations.``

3. ``The population of the U.S. and Canada share a similar culture. Yet they assign vastly different importance to religion -- almost a ratio of 2 to 1.``

dost, vertex


[It is this kind of attitude which is going to get that idiot Bush reelected! ]

What attitude? Vertex was condemning both sides. Not just one. His opinion is quite humane, if I may say so.

[While we must condemn bombings from 10k feet [btw, not too many of my Muslim friends on chowk joined me in condemning americans doing so in Serbia!]]

I was thinking of responding harshly to this, however I recall reports that the American bombing in fact worsened the whole Kosovar refugee crisis in the first place. So you may have a point...

Needless to say, “pinpoint” attacks on Serb positions in the hill side or around small villages is by no means equivalent to carpet bombing /shelling an entire city. Estimates have 80-100k Chechens killed. Excuse me, sir, but it is a poor comparison. Let’s leave out the fact that the Serbs were in the process of ethnic cleansing, whereas the Chechens posed no such immediate threat to anyone.

[there is no moral equivalence in the barbaric acts of individuals deliberately killing innocent children and the unavoidable killings of innocents by professional soldiers obeying the orders of their govt.]

This is weak, and a cop-out. They ARE moral siblings – a fact that is not at all reflected in the different reactions to both events. Are you telling me those soldiers had no inkling that women and children were dying as they were shelling a CITY?!?! I will also withhold comment on the ``professionalism`` of Russian soldiers. There is no justification either way. It worries me that you would sugar-coat, almost justify, one and (rightfully) condemn the other! The Russian invasion of Grozny was barbaric and near genocidal. Period. These terrorists who killed children are barbaric and evil. Period. It is EXACTLY this legitimization of the state-sponsored violence (which is inherently larger-scale terrorism by it’s very nature…nuts to your notion of “unavoidable” killings) that breeds terror, and solicits sympathy for terrorists. Not just among Muslims.

The universal promise of the terrorist is that if nothing is done, “they’ll get you next, and the world will turn a blind eye at best”. Having the world stand in solidarity with Russia after such a barbaric attack may seem righteous, however given their past sins and the rather anemic reaction, if not down right supportive, of Russia’s own barbarity (on a much grander scale) tends to make the terrorist promise seem mighty convincing.

[All such acts do is to convince Americans that there is indeed a war against terror and that Bush-Chenny are justified in killing barbarians who kill in the name of religion.]

You’re right. The timing stinks. However, I am unconvinced that the people who vote for Bush have the intellectual honesty to be “convinced” of anything. These flip-flop chanters are ideologically predisposed. I am convinced that a good number of Americans are convinced of the need for the war.

I understand your desire to remove the religious element from the conflict(s) because it fuels the agenda of the neo-cons. However, I am of the opinion that they have been successful and that a one-sided `clash of civilizations` is already underway. Whereas the rhetoric on the American side is laced with ideological references and a missionary attitude, no such counterpart exists among the Muslim masses.

#71 by tahmed32

``so get a bloody personality of your own.``

Sadly, when it comes to observing people, my capabilities are very limited. I can only look at their productivity. That leads me to conclude that Arabs are generally retards and thus, the title of ``Sand N***ers`` suits them well.

May be it`s my background. I am born in a backward class family in India. And I beat the odds to become a highly productive man myself.

#67 by vertex

`` sri, tahmed,

Dudes, you took the words right out of my mouth.

We could also point out sarcastically that carpet bombing/shelling grozny from 10k feet with fuel-explosive weapons and causing the death of 10`s of thousands of Chechens (knowing full bloody well that there were scores of women and children in city) was also ``brave``.

Bunch of loosers on both sides there... ``

Well, considering the standard career choices of Chechen people, such as extortions, kidnappings and drug-running ( when left to their own governance after `95 / `96 ) one would have to wonder if anything ever positive or productive ever comes out of Chechens. It would be nice to see Validimir Putin ( the last great white hope ) quarantine all chechens in to chechnya and turn it in to a glass parking lot ( A high yield about 100 feet should do the work ). Later Russians can go in and make positive use of the Oil there.

_digit:
I beg to differ. There is a clear distinction between targetting innocents and unintended victims. Unintended does not mean unexpected, which is why the white man uses the term ``collateral damage`` to lessen his feeling of guilt. Now, if you can tell me that the Russians have been ``targetting`` innoncent Chechen children, you may have a point.

Romair #74 interesting statistics. unfortunately most people rush to religion out of fear of death. when they find a cure for death (as will no doubt happen in a few decades, given where medical science is today), 99.99 percent of the believers will become atheists. only those who think about things like ``why are we here`` and so forth will remain religious.

echosqueeeek #72 your entire existence seems to be defined by ``not kowtowing to the west``. diagnosis: you have the same problem as sri (inferiority complex), but just a different manifestation.