Questioning the Hadeeth

[The Quran, the word of God Himself, does not state that a man should be killed for leaving Islam, infact there are verses which argue that there should be no compulsion in religion. ]

If you can inject some modicum of freedom which allows men and women of Islam to renege from Islam and profess different faith or atheism or agnosticism and allow them to at least debate texts and sayings in privacy of their homes or their clubs then islamic people will have taken one giant step forward.

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Saheeh Bukhari is pile of bull crap, no sensible Shia or Sunni belives in that book

No matter how much you question Hadith, the fact remains that Quadianis have been declared non-Muslims on the basis of Qura`nic injunctions. I don`t think there is any wiggling out of it. Quadianis are out of fold of Islam forever.

Oh boy - not another aritcle on koran, hadith, whatever.....

Re Urstruly (#4):

… here’s another fatwa from our resident imbecile … the custodian of mass ignorance …

Sahib … you often blurt rhetoric … but are hardly able to back it with reason. Ahmadis base their understanding of Islam on Quran … and you are unable to argue otherwise. And that seems to have caused too much heartache to you and your mullahs ... which is really your own fault ... you know ...

Sattar # 6 - you wrote ``Ahmadis base their understanding of Islam on Quran``

Not so fast! Before you jump to embrace quran and start killing anyone for your ``love`` of quran in a typical qadiyani hypocratic way, here is what you wrote on another board about quran:

``… if you want to follow that middle-aged arab named Muhammad … and think the book he wrote will take you places … knock yourself out. ``

here is another gem that you wrote about quran on the same board:

``Get this ... an illiterate Arab went into a cave 1400 years ago, claimed that god spoke to him, went on to write a book, and presented it as the word of the invisible god. And today you swear by this book, go around claiming that god spoke to humanity through Muhammad ... and will debate on what god said, what he meant ... and what not. All this based on a book authored by a middle-aged man in ancient times. Get real, pal ...``

Now before you rush to embrace quran on this board, why don`t you slap yourself a bit to awake you from your sleep. because apparently in your sleep you have been uttering a lot of BS that you see to disowe now!

Had I not pasted your previous posts here, you seemed to be getting away by passing yourself as a ``quran lover``!!!

Once again I will say this to you: If you want to stop the `persecution` of qadiyanis in pakistan, tell them to stop messing with Islam.

What a hypocrisy!!!! Unbelievable!!

Oh dear...there was a baby in that bath water!

Hadith are important in contextualizing the Quran. The Quran is inherently a book with a history that`s not self-explained. Some statements can be construed as `universal`, however references to particular places and times are also there. Hadith serve to, or at least attempt, to provide this context. Without understanding context of Hadith or Quran, of course things will seem `contradictory`.

Hadith meet stringent criteria, and should at the very least be cross-checked with Quran to see if WE can make sense out of them. These are small snippets of history, not a coherent or cohesive body of work. Our big sin is to take such things and place meanings on them which may not have been intended!!!

Consider for example the ``requirement`` for beard. I`ve heard all sorts of idiot explanations as to why this was commanded. It`s healthy, serves as protection against enemy swords, wards off warts (well, maybe it does!), etc. There are idiot web-sites dedicated to the magical properties of beards. Why was beard ``commanded``? Hadith provide an answer: fashion of those hostile to Muslims was to have long mustache and trimmed beards. To distinguish themselves from enemy on the battle field, and have the fashion remain, the Prophet *suggested* that the men trim the mustache and grow the beard.

Wow. That actually makes sense, and we can presume that not all people had beards...this was probably one of those suggestions that was made off hand to serve a need, but was elevated to status of mandatory practice by people who refuse to see the bigger picture.

this is what gives jitters to secularists, atheists, murtids, munaafiques , quadiani/ahmadis.

If you are not one of these, you`ll not go bonkers.

Some good points have been raised. THe epistemological issues of facts getting distorted in oral communication of hearsay, the political issues surrounding compilation of the hadeeth, the issues regarding rejection of some of the oral communications and the criteria, re-conciliation of contemporary human rights/woman rights/ gay rights etc with the hadeeth, violence towards oneself and others and its justification, breakdown of original Islam into sects etc. etc.

Let us hope we all put our minds in a constructive discussion of the issues than in condemning the author who raised them.

Re Malik (#8):

You read my earlier posts … but failed to grasp the context. This is typical of a mindless jamaati … although I am flattered that you read my posts so carefully.

The quotes you provided are from a discussion with Tahmed … who was arguing that Ahmadis believe in a fake prophet (Mirza Sahib). I was commenting that … Tahmed’s line of reasoning would also suggest that Muhammad was merely an illiterate arab who claimed to be a prophet, and Tahmed fell for this claim. In short, it is absurd for him to apply one criterion to Muhammad … and another to Mirza Sahib.

Read and think before jumping to idiotic conclusions. I argued on basis of Quran and reason that institution of prophethood is to continue ... and nowhere does Quran suggest otherwise. Re-read the thread in question to see where you lost it.

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URSTRULY:
A good move in the right direction. Torpedoe the damn thing. Those who want to learn such basic stuff they must go to a madressa & not try to their get psychoanalysis done for free.

That too, by sounding cocky & moderate.

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The ultimate site about Mirza kazzab mardood.

http://alhafeez.org/rashid


Read about those who have abandoned the Kazzab mission.[ the most influential in the cabal , during the last couple of years]. Read about the reversal of fortunes in Africa.

Next time just look-up and reply. It is that easy.Good job being done by anti-quadiani/ahmaddiya movement all over the world.

This is the AIDS-type virus implanted by the crusading dogooders as a comic/tragic attempt to invade muslims.

also:

http://alhafeez.org

URSTRULY:
P.S: A good move in the right direction. torpedoe the damn postulates by the illiterates.

Quran, Hadith, Blah , blah, blah....... isn`t there something productive to talk about ? A mind is a productive thing ..... to waste on such stupidity is to make a total waste of it.

Gibran- religion ,any religion which starts governing a major portion of peoples lives,and people start worshipping it-is in my opinion a case of mass Stockholm Syndrome.
We have been down the moderation road a million times and I have found here before that even for moderate people,the raison-de-artre for moderation seems to come for Quran.What I am interested in-and what if anybody else can throw light on -What is the ethnography of religious fascism?It is very necessary to find out the root causes,till then I dont think discussion is going to lead us anywhere.
``..educated Muslims should not argue for another extreme..``
This appears to me as a good point,though debatable.I think that only n extreme intolerance of intolerance is going to take us anywhere,but I am not too sure about that,maybe you are right.