Indian Classical Music in Lahore

Dear chowk moderators,

its people like Lt Col. Rathode aka Salim Chauhan who make this world such a beastly place with their hatred ,intolerance and venom. I strongly suggest people like these should be removed from chowk as they defeat the whole purpose of CHOWK which is dialogue and discussion and not blind hatred.
INTOLERANCE CAN NEVER BE TOLERATED.

BY THE WAY YOU CREEP RATHORE MOST OF THE MUSLIMS IN THE SUBCONTINENT ARE CONVERTED HINDUS.
HOW MANY CAN YOU KILL.

i don understand wat is the big fuss with HINDUS playing in pakistan..i mean its singers performing theie art...ppl interested should go n ppl who r not shod just sit at home n ignore the fact tht if they dont like classical music no one does..n by the way did ne one actually go..or just sit n criticize abt shod they b allowed 2 play or not??

Can the chowk staff reveal the mysterious reasons for allowing Hamid_81`s obnoxious posts to re-appear again? Will you do the same thing with Barachota now that he has reformed himself!!

Ref ballukhan #24

[I have always wondered what ``Shastra`` was followed by the Karnatic Trio when they composed those kritis?]

Any early treatise on music does not have any information on the format of the lyrics (meaning, the pallavi-anupallavi-charanam format of Carnatic kritis). They tend to give very vague references to notes, their relationships to each other and the derivation of ragas.

[I would love to get some more info on this - how many melakartas are mentioned in the Bharat Shastra ? Is the melakarta system mentioned in the shastras??]

The melakarta scheme is an invention of the 18th century. However, it is based on valid mathematical combinations of 7 notes out of 12 semitones in the octave with certain rules such as you can`t have both the madhyama`s (F Flat and F Sharp) in a raga. I realize Hindustani Music frequently uses both the madhyama`s. Hence, one would think that if Hindustani Music wants to claim any rational basis, it would have 144 melakarta-equivalents. How you guys ended up with 10 ``that``s is beyond me. However, if you want to claim that South Indians are better at arithmetic, I shall accept that as your admission that Carnatic Music is more systematic. On the other hand, we in the South tend to take your ragas out of salwar-kameez and put them in a proper 9-yard sari.... witness Jaijaiwanti-Dwijavanti, Sohoni-Hamsanandi, Malkauns-Hindolam, Bhairav-Sindhu Bhairavi, etc., etc. What I can`t understand is how you guys managed to screw up the harmonic major scale (Shankarabharanam) beyond belief.

There are quite a few debates about the melakarta scheme and how it might have overrun the earlier schemes. In particular, the Muthuswami Deekshitar kritis are NOT supposed to based on the same ragas as their current names might indicate. I have heard a demonstration of the raga Bhushavali a la the Deekshitar school and the same song rendered in the raga Vachaspati.. the difference is striking despite the claim that Bhushavali and Vachaspati are one and the same.

By the way, I don`t really have nothing against Hindustani Music. Otherwise, I wouldn`t have gone to great troubles to collect almost all of All-India Radio`s archival releases of such artists as Bade Ghulam Ali Khan or Bismillah Khan. That doesn`t mean I am not entitled to my opinions!

Hey Junior Cadet Rathore, back to the lines for you, where you need to go clean up the johns some more as you sing: This is my rifle, this is my gun . . . this is for fighting, and this is for fun.

I have a friend ex-Pakistan Army who is terribly disgusted by the fact that you called a weapon a ``gun``.

Chowk staff-

You need to re-think whether your decision to allow Hamid_81`s posts appear on this board will encourage the Islamists to be emboldened or not.
You have been wrong in accepting their views that must have been proferred by fanatics like Hamid that by their acts of abusing other sects, religions and nationalities (and even women) they are fulfilling their duty great nationalists!!!
I am sure you understand that their jingoistic posts puts Pakistani muslims in the worst light before the world.

#100 by LtCol.Rathore on September 7, 2004 5:56pm PT

Oh Yes! Lt Col. Rathode aka Salim Chauhan, I know this is your 16th nick and it sounds pathetic!!

Chowk is soon to become a favourite place for the Cyber Jehadis out to spam the board with their proclamations of beheading the so called ``un-faithfuls``.

I would like to appreciate the Chowk admin to show the common sense to restore Hamid_81 nick.
I in no way support his outbursts against Hindu religion and its deities. That is not acceptable and every religion and its revered figures and persons must be respected by all. There is no need to malign a religion for its followers’ fallacies.
Hamid_81 did cross that line and the best punishment was to reject his posts w/o deleting his nick.
OTOH, we have several other posters who have been constantly disparaging Islamic holy figures such as the Prophet Mohammed and have repeated called him a “child molester”. If those posters are allowed to post here, then Hamid_81 has as much right to disparage any religion too. The chowk admin must draw a line when it comes to religion, ethnic slurs, and profanity.
But the answer is to reject the post instead of deleting the nick.

Is there a threshold of rejected posts before someone’s nick is deleted? In that case some like arjun_m should have been gone from the site a long time ago as his rejected posts far exceed the rejected posts by Hamid_m or even Barachota.

It is time that chowk restore Barachota nick also. That was a hasty and bigoted decision.

Ballukahn, your tail on fire! Lolz. Well Thanks Chowk Staff. But my stance is very clear. Anti-India.
Thanks Lt.Col.Rathore. I like your views. It must have felt good killing the enemy and saving your Homeland. I am proud of people like you.
#96 by scott on September 6, 2004 8:01am PT
I think russia got what they deserved.
balluKhan. You should be the person banned from Chowk. There is nothing like a musician or a even a creative sense in you. You are a wasted creation of nature. May Allah have mercy on you. And I slso pray that in the riots you don`t get sacrificed. Whatever it may be you are a Muslim and I would hate to see you crawl to death in Hindustan.

I hate this influx of Hindus in my Land. There was a time during the wars when I killed hundreds with my gun, and now because of stupid politics they come again in my Homeland. Well, if they are in Pakistan they better follow what we say. And personally none of these singers is good. India is coming up with ``classical singers`` left and right who don`t even know the basics of the art. these croakies better stay in Hindustan. There stupid croakiness will probably be liked there, but not in Pakistan.

Chowk Staff!

Just because you were not applauded for banning Hamid_81 in the first instance does not mean that you allow those offensive posts to appear permanently on this board.

I never thought your editorial policy can be so pliable that you allow Hamid_81 posts appear again after taking all of them from this board!!

Did anybody go to the concert and is there a report on it anywhere please?

Welcome back Hamid_82 . This time as a twice born musician!

This Hamid81 character sounds like a super man.

After reading your comments Hamid - would like one more clarification from you. Do you approve of the killing of the 400 children in Russia. After all it was done by pious Muslims. Or do we get to hear that drivel about the Religion of peace.
-
Scott

Its high time Chowk staff think seriuosly about changing the topic heading from `Interacts` to `Fights`/`Spat`/``Brawl` or whatever thats apt looking at the indecent posts of a certain set of people over here.

91 by rsaxena on September 5, 2004 5:36pm PT

I am sure this ape would like to put some RDX in the sitar and then blow up the audiences in US. What an original modus operandi would that be for this Al-Q jehadi!! In this way he can then stop the white man from coming to the Indian Classical music concerts.

#92 by hamid_81 on September 5, 2004 5:36pm PT

I am sure you better get the HIV test done on you since Bheekha Ram had tried it on an ape while in Pakistan!! I am sure you would be laughing your self silly in your last days on seeing your fast approaching death.

We don`t want ``Murtid`s`` who have illegitimate children running around to come to our country. These Murtid`s are better off dead. I had a question for you. How did Zia Mohiuudin dagar die? Did he have cancer and was spitting blood during his last days? LOL.
rsridhar.
If this is entertainment for a stuck up person like you I suggest you spent some more time with your wife. Or is she dead? Or does she not put out any more?

this hamid_81 needs to be sent on a suicide mission so he can meet his houris - not after he has been fed some bacon though

#84 by hamid_81 on September 4, 2004 10:41pm PT


``The dagars are Murtids. They should be orderd to be shot on sight if they ever try to enter a Muslim country.``

I am sure SPIC MACAY would have a hell of a time from mullahs like hamid81- best of luck to the poor organizers in Pakistan- heck! Do they even deserve anything??

re:#84 by hamid_81
Ha, ha, ha.
This guy needs medical attention.
Inshallah, Rais Khan will take care of your rear end.
Sridhar

re:#84 by hamid_81
``And rsridhar, do you have anything from the 21stcentury? Did kali mai pay you a vist after her nightly experiences with Vishnu ji to hand down a scripture written with her juices?``
Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Dude,
You are what i need after a hard day`s work.
Please keep going.
This is pure entertainment.
Sridhar

#84 by hamid_81 on September 4, 2004 10:41pm PT

Lol!!!

Your tail is on fire now!! You are clearly a Al-Q operative who has exposed himself now.

#84 by hamid_81 on September 4, 2004 10:41pm PT

Lol!!!

Your tail is on fire now!! You are clearly a Al-Q operative who has exposed himself now.

Hamid_81

Quote:

`` Accept the facts, we ruled you and we will rule you: With the Koran and the Sunnah.

Unless definition or understanding to the term `fact` has changed, how the bold part in the above can be a `fact`? At best, it could be a want, dream, and nothing more than that.

rsridhar, you idol worshipping people whose Idols I can break with one sweep of my arm, are telling me what to do? Accept the facts, we ruled you and we will rule you: With the Koran and the Sunnah. We killed the idol worshippers and morons like you and will do it again. InshaAllah. And when did your stupid Bhagwans lived? In 2004? On top of the Himalayah? You don`t even know who they were. Whether they were real people or animals. A animal worshipping nation who is backword and hilarious in their beliefs should in my view be destroyed. So just shut up and pray to your Kali Mai that Pakistan doesn`t nuke you. Or else your Bhagwans will too be nuked with you.
Now BalluKhan, my earlier post got rejected, or else you would have known the reality about Dgaras. All they are famous for is bringing about illegitimate children by impregnating Hindu women. Like Zia Dagar has an illegitinate child Bahauddin, born out of a wedlock with a Hindu women. The dagars are Murtids. They should be orderd to be shot on sight if they ever try to enter a Muslim country. That is why the Hindu dagars and their illegitimate offsprings are better off in a dirty stinking country like India totally overwhelmed with Hindus.
And rsridhar, do you have anything from the 21stcentury? Did kali mai pay you a vist after her nightly experiences with Vishnu ji to hand down a scripture written with her juices?

re:#72 by Ralph
I wanted to write a long rebuttal to your post but then i figured saying anything to u is like ``bhains ke aage been bajaney ke barabar`` (playing flute in front of the buffallo; the latter will not appreciate what is being played).
So, sleep in your own coccoon and pray to God Uncle Sam does not wake u up one day.
Sridhar

re:#74 by haideri
And, who the fukc are you?
Sridhar

re:#75 by hamid_81
Do u guys have the intellecutal capacity to go beyond the Qoran or like a gramophone needle struck in the groove, u guys will keep singing the same line.
Qoran was written in the 7th century.
Do u guys have anything that is from the 21st century?
Sridhar

#79 by ballukhan

“this is a sad reflection on the education that has been given to idiots like hamid that the young generations have not learnt anything from the belligerence and idiocity of their fathers.”

..and you are showing higher standards! Both education systems are at par….Ugliness is equally shared.

Rais khan catches hold of young and cikna laundas like you in order to get over his frustration of being a loser compared to Vilayat Khan. At least the Dagars did not fall to the tempetation of singing Qawalis and Ghazals in order to survive- Rais Khan cuts a very sorry figure with the harmonium in his hands. On the other hand the Dagars had the honesty and strong traditions of not abandoning Dhrupad and taking to harmonium- it is sad that Rais Khan could not learn anything worthwhile from his father and got into the bad habit of laundabazi in the Bombay chawls.
Regarding every Paki dream of breaking India despite the bangladesh lesson- I can only say that this is a sad reflection on the education that has been given to idiots like hamid that the young generations have not learnt anything from the belligerence and idiocity of their fathers.

balluKhan. How do u know Rais Khan is gay? Did he give it you in the behind or did he give it to the other dagars? LOL. You must be hurting back there. But I guess all the stupid Dagars deserve this.
About the Indian army. LOL. Whihc is made up of Punjabis? Trust me one more move from Pakistan and we will break your country like a Pumpkin. Khalistan is ineveitable. Soon enough people like you would be dragged into the streets embarrased, your girls ripped off there dignity, just like all the other stupid Muslims, who have choosen to live in India. YOu and the other Muslims in India are pathetic loosers who should just die of shame on being part of a dirty country who supports terrorism against Muslims worldwide.
You know what when Indians stop listening to your music (whihc I am sure has happened, because you seem to have all the time on your hands to be on chowk 24/7) then you should probably become a mature adult entertainer. Probably swinging your butt on teental will make you more money than being a pathetic looser.
I pity you. You are old, and a looser in every aspect and just try to jerk off after writing anti-Pakistan things. But I am happy to see that Pakistanis burn your ass 24/7. Mirasis like you deserve to die. Is your wife still alive? Spent some time with her, you will probably feel lighter. LOL. Or are you gay? I will ask Rais Khan if he has some time he can probably satisfy you. LOL.

#75 by hamid_81 on September 3, 2004 5:13pm PT

Hamid the Launda!

Its alright if you want to trade abuses- first Rais Khan- he is infact a gay and I am sure you would also be providing great services for him when he visits you in US. And I know more about the ``impeccable`` character of the residents of your pureland than perhaps you can even imagine.
Finally, lEt these dogs bark across the borders. I know that my freedom is adequately protected from mullahs like you by my constitution and my brave army!! In case any need arises I know your tail would be on fire soon.

Ballu Khan The Hindu
Laundi means a women employed by a Muslim master. And Again I did not say this. It is in the Koran. You know what that is? The holy book of Muslims. So your, modern day, intellectual crap is meaningless if you cannot support it from either the Koran or the Sunnah. And I have supported my argument directly from the Koran. There is no 2 sided interpretation of this ayat. It means one thing. That you canot marry hindus. So if you have also committed this sin ( I know the dagar family is renowned to flirt with their foriegn students, in the absences of their wives, especially when all of them look like horny old Bas.ards), then you are a sinner Plain and simple. If you have any counter argument bring it on. Lets see what your modern day free-spirited intellectual crap has to offer. And yes Indian Muslims by becoming like the Hindus have compromised their religion and lost their identity. They are not more than pathetic, helpless creatures who are beyond all help, and just lick the boots of Hindus to find a place for themselves in india. I really really pity you.
#71 by rsridhar on September 3, 2004 7:56am PT
Yes our Allah is different from all other gods. Because He has stated specifically in the Koran by what name He is to be called, and what things needed to be done to please Him. So I don`t know what the other gods are selling but I have definite rules to follow to please my Allah. The Muslim Theologians and intellectuals are doing a great job. I don`t know who Yogananda is, and I don`t care. I am a Muslim and I don`t need to learn about islam from a Hindu. Period. There are more lerned Muslim scholars out there to guide me. I can pick up the Koran and read and know about my religion. I can go ask questions to good Muslim scholars from Jamia Al-Azhar( one or two of which are always in America giving lectures in Masjids) and they can guide me as they are guiding other Muslims. So again the Muslims have beemn reading the road-map correctly, and know how to practise their faith. it is just Muslims like Amjad ali Khan and ballukhan who are a disgrace to the Muslims. Their lack of knowledge and wrong interpretation of the Ayats which are plain and simple and are against their ideas and deeds have made Islam into a confusing and mis-understood religion.

#72 by Ralph on September 3, 2004 12:30pm PT
Jazak-Allah Brother!
Great Answer!

#72 and 71.

Shut the hell up. Both of you guys are dumb asses.

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#71 by rsridhar

A typical Hindu post. I will clear your misconceptions.

1. YOU: God is beyond religion. Religion is an invention of human being.

FACT: Your religion is the invention of human beings. Our religion was divinely given. Allah actually spoke to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So whatever is written in Quran are actually Allah`s words.

2. YOU: Have u ever seen animals kill each other for religion?

FACT: Only animals don`t kill each other religion. Life is not so precious that it come in the way of religious matters.


3. YOU: Is your Allah different from God or Ishwar of Yahovah? They have to be the same.

FACT: They are not. Allah is a unique words. There is nothing like it. No Muslim will pray to anything other than Allah. You may pray to God. A Muslim will pray only to Allah. We have even gotten rid of the mistake of equating Khuda with Allah.

4. YOU: Your Qoran proclaims again and again that there is but one God.

FACT: True. That `One` God is Allah and Allah only, not God or Ishwar or Yahovah or Khuda.

5. YOU: Qoran offers one way, Bible another and for the Hindus, there is a zillion way.

FACT: Bible offers the corrupted way. Hindus offer prayers in a zilliong wrong ways. There is only one correct way of praying, one correct way of worshipping. Allah the Merciful Himself revealed that way. If the other zillion-1 ways were correct, Allah would have had to speak for much longer than he actually did.

6. YOU: But we are talking about the same God

FACT: In your dreams. Naturally you wish to equate your religion with Islam. We are better and we are correct.


7. YOU: As Yogananda said

FACT: There you go. Worshipping Godmen. I suggest you read Hamza Yusuf.

8. YOU: Religion is like a road map. If you do not read that map correctly, you will not reach your destination.

FACT: Precisely what I am saying. The Holy Quran provides that golden, glorious, and wonderful roadmap. You will never get to your destination by travelling in those other zillion-1 ways.

9. YOU: And i humbly submit that for the past several centuries, muslim mullahs have not been reading the road map correctly.

FACT: We will dominate the world. There is no God but Allah. We will rule again. As followers of the correct religion, we have a right to rule over others, you included. But you don`t have to be concerned. Once we establish `true` Islamic rule, you will have more happiness than if you ruled yourself.

hamid_81 #66

You are most welcome. You are a Muslim. Write only what is doctrinally correct. Always be faithful to the spirit of Islam.

re:#66 by hamid_81
``And also, I don`t proclaim that somebody is a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Allah says it in the Koran, black and white as to who is and who isn`t. Then why fret?``
The problem with people like u is you guys act like u have been taking opium for ages.
Since when did Allah start bothering about religion? God is beyond religion. Religion is an invention of human being. Have u ever seen animals kill each other for religion?
Is your Allah different from God or Ishwar of Yahovah?
They have to be the same. Your Qoran proclaims again and again that there is but one God.
If that be the case, then what we are talking is: how do we worship the same God. Qoran offers one way, Bible another and for the Hindus, there is a zillion way. But we are talking about the same God
As Yogananda said (look him up in the internet, will you? It might change your life and broaden your vision), religion is like a road map. If you do not read that map correctly, you will not reach your destination.
And i humbly submit that for the past several centuries, muslim mullahs have not been reading the road map correctly.
Sridhar

hamid_81/66 - you said ````And also, I don`t proclaim that somebody is a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Allah says it in the Koran, black and white as to who is and who isn`t. Then why fret?````

I would like to offer a correction to what you said. Allah does not say it in the Koran. Human beings who later on interpreted things, often differently, say it in the Koran.

However, if it is your contention that only what is written in a book is paramount, then why don`t you live only by The Book? Where does it say in The Book that you are permitted to read on a monitor, type on a keyboard, use electricity, &c &c?

Oh yes, that`s evolution.

Then why, next question, would anybody deny that The Book can also evolve.

Yes, I have read the Koran. Yes, I pray. So, you please restrain from telling or ballukhan to shut up, because where does it say in The Book that we have to shut up?

#65 by hamid_81 on September 2, 2004 10:06am PT

Ok Noora Pehalwan- onto some semantics. You wrote:

`` It is stated that it is better to marry a ``laundi`` who is a Muslim rather than a non-Muslim woman. ``
Which clearly implies that a non-muslim woman is even worse than a muslim laundi (prostitute).
That is a typical literalist interpretation and I have no need for your citations to justify your perverse views about women. In case you want to get into some theological discussion then there is a topic running right now on ``Questioning the Hadeeth`` by
Gibran Bham at
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004003&channel=gulberg&order=0&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1#replies

You can post your views about Indian muslims and how they are posing a great danger to the Pakistani muslim by marrying out of faith there. I also do not intend to get into a theological debate on the correct interpretation of the Surah whose import becomes clear when you see it in the context of the spiritual relationship between the man and the almighty.

However, the Indian (or any other) muslims do not need ugly certificates from an uglier person like you in order to defile our faith in the almighty. So keep away to your pure land with your certificate on your passport about your true faith- which is deen-e-fasad.

#65 by hamid_81 on September 2, 2004 10:06am PT

Ok Noora Pehalwan- onto some semantics. You wrote:

`` It is stated that it is better to marry a ``laundi`` who is a Muslim rather than a non-Muslim woman. ``
Which clearly implies that a non-muslim woman is even worse than a muslim laundi (prostitute).
That is a typical literalist interpretation and I have no need for your citations to justify your perverse views about women. In case you want to get into some theological discussion then there is a topic running right now on ``Questioning the Hadeeth`` by
Gibran Bham at
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004003&channel=gulberg&order=0&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1#replies

You can post your views about Indian muslims and how they are posing a great danger to the Pakistani muslim by marrying out of faith there. I also do not intend to get into a theological debate on the correct interpretation of the Surah whose import becomes clear when you see it in the context of the spiritual relationship between the man and the almighty.

However, the Indian (or any other) muslims do not need ugly certificates from an uglier person like you in order to defile our faith in the almighty. So keep away to your pure land with your certificate on your passport about your true faith- which is deen-e-fasad.

#56 ralph Thanks Ralph!
balluKhan, READ what I have written and then write. I wrote that to marry a ``Muslim Laundi`` is better than to marry a non-muslim. Have you read the Koran? Are you a Muslim? Do you Pray? If not then just shut up and hold it tight. Amjad Ali Khan Saheb is a gifted musician no doubt. But whether he is a Muslim or not is a different story. These are two different things so keep them seperate. Well, whether you get agitated or all the Hindus get upset, the truth is the truth. In your modern and intellectual world I know there is no place for religion and people like me. But hey to be an intellectual it doesn`t mean that you have to give your religion and marry a Hindu. And if you are a Muslim then act like one as well, regardless of whether you live in India or any other nation.I live in America and still I am aware of my religion. Why aren`t the Indian Muslims? I guess it is just the up-bringing.
And also, I don`t proclaim that somebody is a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Allah says it in the Koran, black and white as to who is and who isn`t. Then why fret?

BalluKhan the Muslim the read the following. I hope you at least know what the Koran is and what is a surah.



But it is not permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Magian (Zoroastrian) woman or a communist woman or an idol-worshipping woman, etc.

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress), even though she pleases you”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

A mushrikah is an idol-worshipping woman who worships stones, whether from among the Arabs or others.

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim from any other religion, whether from among the Jews or Christians, or any other kaafir religion. It is not permissible for her to marry a Jew, a Christian, a Magian, a communist, an idol-worshipper, etc.

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al‑Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allaah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikoon) invite you to the Fire, but Allaah invites (you) to Paradise and forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

#58 by kaurasach on September 1, 2004 6:27pm PT
``According to some mullahs music is haram...there are edicts now and then to the effect and bans too. ...``

Coming to edicts and farmans- Aurangzeb was the greatest rascal in the history of Indian Classical music- a murderer of his own brother and his father- a perpeterator of countless atrocities on his own son and daughter- he was an epitome of cruelity- he was the man who ordered a farmans against the ancient Indian music- he was reponsible for the migration of some of the best musicians from Delhi darbars- in fact he advised all the musicians to do something else in order to earn a living. No wonder he is the favourite Moghul of the mullahs of Pakistan.

For all of you debating on whether music should be allowed in Pakistan, by Islam, by Hindus, whataver, if you like it, attend. If not, stay home, no? Especially the anonymous web-presences like hamid something.

For the rest - there is this BIG mosque in Lahore in the GOR area, near Dampur Road, where the mighty gather to pray. Right opposite is this huge Race Course, used for cultural functions now. Last I was there, Palash Sen of Euphoria and a couple of other Indian bands were jamming with Pakistani bands till late at night, past midnight. But interestingly,earlier in the evening, the bands and the cover groups would take a break at exactly the correct time for the muezzins to do their thing. Obviously this was by arrangement and synchronised, but I am told it sounded so . . . lovely?

Aradhana, anybody?

sorry dude i just saw the foot note.. spicmacay.com :-)
if only we could download music from here..download link shows under construction
and people,classical or semiclassical music is best enjoyed live..i dont know what it is about live classical performances..it is just mesmerizing..

okay okay hamid_81

you have the right to pronounce if someone is a muslim or not. but see, even musicians who call themselves muslim are going though hindu practices since that is what they have been doing since they started learning in their childhood!

in any case, music will be richer without bigots like you.

Navin, what are the online resources for classical music? I mean where we can download,or acces forums etc.?does spicmacay have a web site?

#45, by hamid_81 on September 1, 2004 11:14am PT

Mr. Noora Pehalwan should tell the vice brigade of his country that Amjad Ali Saheb is not a pure enough muslim so that they can throw them some nukes on the country to get rid of all the impure Indian muslims.
And calling all the non-muslim women ``laundi`` only shows your perverse attitude towards women. Fortunately Amjad Ali Saheb is out of your reach and you can only throw abuses across your border at every successful muslim musician in India like Rais Khan ( alias Bheeku Ram of Pakistan) does nowadays.

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Hamid_81

Your bold honesty and doctrinal clarity are very impressive. Most so-called Muslims on Chowk would not know Islam if Allah dropped it upon their heads. So desirous they have become of pleasing others that they magically make Islam appear like Jainism or Buddhism with words `Allah` and Arabia thrown in.

You come as a breath of fresh air - a real Muslim describing aspects of real islam as it actually is, always has been, and always will be.

Do maintain your precious honesty. As such, you can raise the honesty index of Chowk discussions by standing up for real Islam when pseudo Muslims begin to play their habitual game of smoke and mirrors -- distorting your religion in order to fit it into the belief systems of non Muslims.

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hamid_81:

And that my friend is the difference between us. We honour Amjad Ali Khan, for his achievments and abilities, and do not care lives by percepts of cavemen such as you.

What challenge are you talking about? There can be NO exceptions to the basic principals of islam. A Muslim man is only allowed to marry either a Muslim woman or a woman from the ``religions of the book``, which include, Christinas, Jews and others, but NOT Hindus. It is stated that it is better to marry a ``laundi`` who is a Muslim rather than a non-Muslim woman. Plain and simple. The modern anti-Islamic, intellectual Muslims might differ saying it doesn`t make sense and love is eternal and we should only marry who we think is right for us, bottom line they can`t do it. In the eyes of Allah it will not be a marriage but just a Zinnah. Plain and simple. Period. So no fatwa, or any other thing is desired from mullahs. The Koran says it all. So amjad ali Khan, and all the other Muslim artists who have married Hindu women or vice versa, are living in sin. Period. According to the Koran and the Sunnah. So no matter what music they make they are not Muslims.
H

45/hmid
//..He is an Indian but please don`t call him a Muslim. And he should have the guts to say so as well...//

Yeah ... you da man! This guys is kufr and yet calls himself muslim. How dare he? That`s blasphemy!! A fatwa is due here!!

Where is mullah brigrade when you need one? Any chowki mullah upto the challenge here??

Ballukhan

Post # 25

Quote:

`` During the days of Darbars honorary titles like Pandit or Ustad were confered by the distinguished gatherings of the Nawab`s or the Maharaja`s Courts. But, with the collapse of the Darbars there remained no such authority to decide and confer such titles. Post independence there were some small time societies which used to confer similar high sounding titles little ``Sangeet KAlanidhi`` to performers who could afford to pay them . However, even that has became unnecessary and now any idiot who can do dir dir like a zombie on the sitar can call himself a Ustad or Pandit after some years of practise. It is nowadays used by the siblings of these erstwhile Ustads as a family title in order to achieve a better publicity of their names not withstanding the deficiencies in their skills.``

My understanding is, title of Pundit is for those who had/have mastery on a subject or subjects. Not limited to music but could be any subject. And this title did not have to come from or conferred by some darbar/s only. Whereas Ustad can be a master of a subject but having mastery would not be necessary. For, generally it tends to be taken as someone who teaches. Could be a teacher too.

Hamid_81

Quote:

`` but the truth is that she used to live with a Nawab or Raja if he wished her to and took care of her needs. ``

From where, this truth has come ....

I could be wrong but as far as I know, she was married to well educated/cultured and well off guy/person.

Hamid_81

Here is some information on Begum Akhtar`s background..

Quote:

Akhtaribai Faizabadi, or Begum Akhtar as she was more popularly known, was born on 7th October, 1914 in the small town of Faizabad, Uttar Pradesh in northern India. She was born in a high class family that was not musically inclined. However, at her uncle`s insistence, she was sent to train under Ustad Imdad Khan, the great sarangi exponent, and later under Ata Mohammed Khan. Later she travelled to Calcutta with her mother and started learning music from classical stalwarts like Mohammad Khan, Abdul Waheed Khan and finally she became the disciple of Ustad Jhande Khan Saheb.

Her first public peformance was at the tender age of fifteen. She took the music world by storm. The famous poetess Smt. Sarojini Naidu appreciated her singing during a concert which was organised in the aid of victims of Bihar earthquake. This encouraged her to continue singing ghazals with more enthusiasm. She also cut her first disc for the Megaphone Record Company at that time. A number of gramophone records were released carrying her ghazals, dadras, thumris, etc.

With the advent of talkie era in India, Begum Akhtar acted in a few Hindi movies in thirties. East India Film Company of Calcutta approached her to act in KING FOR A DAY (alias Ek Din Ka Badshah) and NAL DAMAYANTI in the year 1933. Like others of that era, she sang her songs herself in all her films. She continued acting in the following years. The movies she acted in are: Ameena (1934), Mumtaz Begum (1934), Jawaani Ka Nasha (1935), Naseeb Ka Chakkar (1935).

Subsequently Begum Akhtar moved back to Lucknow where she was approached by the famous producer-director Mehboob Khan, as a result of which she acted in ROTI which was released in 1942 and whose music was composed by maestro Anil Biswas. ROTI contained six of her ghazals but unfortunately due to some trouble between producer and director, Mehboob Khan subsequently deleted 3-4 ghazals from the film. All the ghazals are available on Megaphone gramophone records. Begum Akhtar, meanwhile, left Bombay and returned to Lucknow.

In 1945, Begum AKhtar was married to barrister Ishtiaq Ahmed Abbasi and became known as Begum Akhtar. However, after marriage, due to her husband`s restrictions, she could not sing almost 5 years, and subsequently, she fell ill. Music was prescribed as the only remedy! In 1949, she returned to the recording studios. She sang three ghazals and a dadra at Lucknow Radio Station. She wept aferwards and returned to singing in concerts, a practice which lasted until her death.

IMPORTANT NEWS
++++++++++++

We are sorry to inform everyone that Pandit Vishwa Mohan Bhatt will not be in our group.
Unfortunately his passport has been stuck at the French embassy for a visa.
He is departing for Paris on the 6th of September.
We apologize for any inconvenience.

Farzna Versey

Post #22

Quote:

`` One needs to remember that most true artistes see music as ibaadat/dharma ``

Is it being conveyed that ibaadat and dharma are same thing/synonymous (spl?)?

Thanks for the info, Ballukhan and soysauce....this board is coming dangerously close to a useless quarrel.

And yes, I would LIKE TO REPORT, as in give an account of, convey, describe, inform, even testify in a court of law if need be, that many Pakistani artistes are open-minded and all the rest I said in an earlier post.

Am sure the organisation and Lahoris have a real good time...

re:#35 by kaurasach
That gargling is i think called Aalap. It is the introduction to the raaga. I may be wrong. I am noexpert in classical music.
Most of the songs that u hear are based on some kind of raaga. But the training in ``gargling`` as u call it, is necessary before one can even sing. That is whyeven famous singers like Noorjehan or Lata Mangeshkar kept their ``riyaz`` of classical music throughout their career.
Lata`s one regret today is that she has not done much of classical singing!
On a ligher note, during my medical school days, i had a troublesome roommate (in the medical hostel). Soon i found out a way to extract my revenge. In the pretext of appreciating classical music, i bought some casettes of Bhimsen Joshi and Balamurali Krishna and played them every day at 4 am or so. Soon, my room mate was on his knees!
Sridhar

Karachi nazim bans music and dance in schools

LAHORE: Karachi City Nazim Naimatullah Khan has banned schoolchildren’s participation in musical and dance programmes, according to a news channel on Tuesday. “We are Muslims and it is against Islamic culture that our children participate in musical and dance programs,” Mr Khan told the TV channel. He said that he had directed all schools under the district government to ban their students from participating in such programmes. “Any violation of these orders will not be tolerated,” he added. daily times monitor

Can Lahore be far behind?

Kabuli #19,

Hi, I am not talking about the instruments. In carnatic music, foreign instruments (violin, mandolin etc) have been adapted for Indian use.

I am talking about raagas and taalaas.

Well I think that what Amjad Ali Khan did portrayed that Muslims have to do things to please the Hindus, or else they can go nowhere. Would Amjad Ali Khan have been anything without his wife`s connections? According to Ustad Asad Ali Khan, musicians in India call him, `` Sarkari Sarodiya``. Moreover the correct Muslims will agree that a marriage between a Muslim and a Hindu is not allowed. If you do that that it nothing more than a ``Zinnah``. Take any book on Islam or read the Koran. So, in light of that, even if he makes great music, I don`t consider him a Muslim. He is an Indian but please don`t call him a Muslim. And he should have the guts to say so as well.

And stuka, you are not the only Indian, you are the only STUPID Indian. So that is why I wrote what I did. And yes after reading things written by gujju, against Pakistan, I wrote EXACTLY what i felt. I am entitled to it.

Hhere are some more ``inside thoughts `` about Hindus by Hamid81

``GujjuBania is a jerk and I wish really that just because of Hindus like him, Pakistan should Nuke India. I am tired of Hindus. They are better off burning in hell with their gods. Those dirty little rascals have no place on Earth. What is the purpose of making Hindus? I guess God had to put some filth in the world and He decided to put it in the form of Hindus. Down with India! Down with Hindus! Burn them! The world would be a better place without them! They deserve it! ``

Becoz GB is a Jerk (and we all agree he is and give him gaalis) the great Mughal Hamid 81 decides that all Hindus should be nuked. Wah wah!!

[ #35 by kaurasach on September 1, 2004 9:42am PT
I don`t like classical music because they do a lot of gargling (aaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAaaaa). Why don`t they just start singing?

It can be equated to Opera in the west. ]

well.. i have little training in classical music so i cant say i `understand` it. agreed that there is a lot of gargling in the vocal part. i generally prefer the instrumentals. although if you have patience you will like vocal as well. youngsters like me dont have patience:(

man, if you get a chance to attend zakir hussian, DONT miss it. he is amazing!

Hamdi 81:

``The reason why I said that was in reply to Stuka. It doesn`t reflect my inner ideology. It was merely to piss him off. ``

Really? Am I the only Hindu in the world? That is news.

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re: Indian classical music
SPIC MACAY is a fine organization that showcases Indian classical music to younger generation of Indians who have lost touch with classical music.
We now-a-days hear a lot of nonsense that passes off as music in Bollywood movies. None of this is inspiring. If one goes back to movies with music based on ragas, we realize how precious those kind of music are. Few can forget movies like Baiju Bawra. Some of old movies in which Naushad gave music are still fresh in memory (Gunga Jamna, Ram aur Shyam, Saathi etc). The music stands out because they are based on classical raagas. In this respect, i still remember how famous the movie ``Shankarabharanam`` became many years ago. The songs were all based on Carnatic music.
The following Url gives all the details one might need about Indian classical music:
http://www.musicalnirvana.com/introduction/introduction.asp
Sridhar

re:#32 by ankit
Most Pakis are pathetic when it comes to music. They have turned their back on their rich heritage because the word ``Hindustani `` is anathema to them. They even tried to change some raagas. This is like trying to turn the tide of an ocean.
Still, they fail to realize that most classical singers even in Pakistan have to learn Hindustani music to get anywhere. They may call that music by any name but it still is Hindustani music!
Some years ago, when Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan visited Ajmer, he spent close to 2 hours singing qawalis in praise of Krishna!
Music has no religion. Fools do not realize this.
Sridhar

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#14 by haideri
It is for ignorant people like u that internet was invented. Go to the following Url and learn all about Indian Classical music:
http://www.musicalnirvana.com/introduction/introduction.asp
Ever heard about Sitar, played by that famous musician Ravi Shankar?
The persian influence in Hindustani music cannot be denied but then the roots (ragas) are uniquely Indian and derive their origin from ancient texts.
Sridhar

re:#11 by hamid_81
Tough luck for u. Most singers of Hindustani music are Indian muslims.
As you have shown hatred of hindus by your post, u do not deserve any sympathy. If u have nothing useful to say, go to some other forum where your hatred can find a suitable outlet. We do not want you to be a psychological wreck, do we?
Sridhar

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#11 by hamid_81

[People like me would probably NEVER go where Hindus are playing. And frankly, hindu artists should not be allowed to perform in Pakistan.]

Too bad for you! In a recent concert that I attended Ustad Amzad Ali Khan started with Saraswati Vandana. This was followed by a raaga that he said was tribute to his gurus.

Navin Hi,

How fitting that SPIC MACKAY is organising this trip of Indian artists to Pakistan. I am sure the turn-out and response will be excellent and encouraging.

For those who keep their hostility alive..... do you understand music at all?

When you are listening to some exquisite piece of music, do you think what the artist`s religion is? Art has no religion.

There have been so many bhajans by Muslim artists - Rafi, for instance. And there would hardly be any who aren`t moved the power of a qawwali being sung in a Urs.

What does it matter what the music is called? Indian classical music... call it world classical music, orif that makes some of you feel better, Pakistani classical music. I bet neither of the great Muslim artists themselves ever object to the intro that they are masters of ~Indian~ classical music - get above the labels.

Just leave the animosity out folks - don`t we have enough hatred in the world already?

I am sure I will be told once again to shut up or something ruder!

Veeresh, many thanks for that wonderful background on SPIC MACKAY. The website is fairly new. I remember many mesmerizing concerts in the Kamani auditorium in 80/81, Shivji and Pt Hari Prasad playing, accompanied by Zakir Hussain. And then there was Ustad Amjad Ali Khan... terrific. The young Shafat Ahmed Khan on tabla with so much promise..Still get goosebumps at the memories

I have recently got an unusual (of course old) recording of Ustad Ahmedjan Thirakwa - tripping on it.

Play on guys and thank you for the music.

#11 by hamid_81

[People like me would probably NEVER go where Hindus are playing. And frankly, hindu artists should not be allowed to perform in Pakistan.]

Only then would you stand a chance.

Veeresh:
``.....SPIC MACAY was first launched and the aim expressed was not to fight Westernisation but the process of deculturisation. ``

SPIC MACAY was the best reponse by the modern Indian culture towards the cultural imperialism of the West! This is way that modern Islamic societies should repond to the influences of West which they want to avoid in their societies.
Unfortunately they have left it on the mullah brigade to represent their society who can only come up with Anti-Vice Policing!!

#2 by dionysus

[``Indian classical music``? We call it Pakistani classical music.]

Too bad for you, the world will continue to call it ``Indian`` classical music.

``#6 by harimau on August 31, 2004 8:34am PT
Ref dionysus #2

[``Indian classical music``? We call it Pakistani classical music.]

Personally, I tend to call it ``Persian Classical Music`` or ``Hindustani Classical Music``. I refuse to call it ``Shastriya Sangeet`` since I believe this music has only a tenuous connection to any shastras. ``


I have always wondered what ``Shastra`` was followed by the Karnatic Trio when they composed those kritis? I would love to get some more info on this - how many melakartas are mentioned in the Bharat Shastra ? Is the melakarta system mentioned in the shastras??

#12 by FarzanaVersey on August 31, 2004 12:53pm PT

During the days of Darbars honorary titles like Pandit or Ustad were confered by the distinguished gatherings of the Nawab`s or the Maharaja`s Courts. But, with the collapse of the Darbars there remained no such authority to decide and confer such titles. Post independence there were some small time societies which used to confer similar high sounding titles little ``Sangeet KAlanidhi`` to performers who could afford to pay them . However, even that has became unnecessary and now any idiot who can do dir dir like a zombie on the sitar can call himself a Ustad or Pandit after some years of practise. It is nowadays used by the siblings of these erstwhile Ustads as a family title in order to achieve a better publicity of their names not withstanding the deficiencies in their skills.After 1947 most of the musicians had the decency of not faking these terms before their names if these honourable titles were not confered by the distinguished authorities of pre-independence days.
Nowadays titles like Ustad or Pandit have no meaning because there is no system of accredition of such titles by some competent authority like we have in case of other titles like Dr, CPA etc.

#22 Farzana
I think the honorific is a legacy of the mughal days altho nowadays anyone with students takes on the titles as a matter of course. No such titles are used among Carnatic artistes except for the ones conferred on them by the governments (Sangeeta Kalamani, Natya Sigamani, etc.)

Way to go!! I`ve attended a couple of their concerts and the organization is top quality, so are the performers. I believe most of the performers do it for the cause of music and don`t charge much (or probably nothing).

BTW, is music sanctioned by Islam :-)

Music knows no boundaries. Good job done by SPIC MACAY

Rightly has Shakespeare said of music:

“The man that has no music in himself, nor is moved with sweet concord of sweet sound, is fit for treason, stratagems and spoils.”

#15 by hamid_81:

Thanks for the response. Re. the prefixes for men, true it has to do with mastery over their art (though we have greenhorns too being so honoured, or honouring themselves). My problem is, why have different ones for Hindus and Muslims? What language/religion does such music have? A Mehdi Hassan would use a certain raag for a classical ghazal and a Pandit Bhimsen Joshi for a classical bhajan.

Re. women not getting an honorific prefix, you mention the case of Begum Akhtar (since she was Akhtari bai, I thought Begum was the respectable title given to her) and how she had a nawaab/raja take care of her. But then male musicians too have needed patrons, and in these days it is sponsors.

I do not agree with you that these days women singers are still not considered to be from a good background. Times have changed and all the women I mentioned are seen as respectable, and the thumri which was earlier associated only with the mujra is now a part of the repertoire of classical music performances, often together with the holier raags...

One needs to remember that most true artistes see music as ibaadat/dharma and to see this aspect as being contradictory to secularism is essentially foolish. Both the Sufi and Bhakti movements that are so alike in their depth of thought and action gave rise to some wonderful music, and they were extremely secular. Shankar-Shambhu were a duo who sang only qawwalis in praise of `god` and devotion...and they were practising Hindus.

I am glad you believe the music exchange is a good idea and am happy that this group is making an attempt.

I agree with Khilnani, give youth a chance.

I was there in 1979 for the IIT-Delhi function, and remember a young Amjad Ali Khan landing up at IIT-D in a yellow Merc.There was also a free concert in the park at Lodi Gardens by Ravi Shankar around the same time which went on till dawn.

Please understand that those were emerging days for India, just out of the Emergency and moving slowly towards sharing matters which were tradionally, till then, only for the elite.

From their website . . .the ``big bang`` of SPIC MACAY came in 1972 at a concert of Ustad Nasir Aminuddin Dagar and Ustad Zia Fariduddin Dagar at the Brooklyn Academy of Music in New York. After a few sporadic concerts (notable amongst them was that of Ustad Ali Akbar Khan) at Columbia University, New York, under the aegis of the India Club of Columbia University during the period 1972-76, the idea took a more defined direction in 1977 in India. However in 1979, a two-day programme again at IIT Delhi of Ustad Bismillah Khan, Dagar Bandhu, Ustad Amjad Ali Khan and Ustad Sitahid Parvez turned out to be a marginal success. MEFYS( Mechanical Engineering Final Year Students) organized the programme. It was at this programme that the name SPIC MACAY was first launched and the aim expressed was not to fight Westernisation but the process of deculturisation.

The first lecture-demonstration series LEC-DEM`79 was also conducted in the same year when six Delhi based artistes, Pandit Birju Maharaj, Smt.Sonal Mansingh, Ustad Asad Ali Khan, Dagar Bandhu and Ustad Munnawar Ali Khan gave three presentations at the Jawaltar Lal Nehru University (Godavari Hostel), Lady Irwin College and Miranda House respectively. The name FEST for our annual festival was first used in 1980 and FEST 80 was conducted in a number of educational institutions all over Delhi. Fest`81 took SPIC MACAY to Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Bangalore, Calcutta, and Kharagpur. In 1982, the first lecture-demonstration series in schools was conducted when Ustad Zia Mohiuddin Dagar, Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, and Smt. Sonal Mansingh gave three lec-dems each at Modern School, Barakhamba Road, Sardar Patel Vidyalaya & Ramjas School no.3````

All the best.

Re:haideri#14

Indian classical music started at the time of the vedas, when the key raags and the overall musicology was developed. So if we consider Aryans to be central asians, I guess, it is central asian classical music. But then, we all came from Africa, so maybe we should call it African classical music.

re: MaheshG2

I believe that the Tanpura (Tambura in Carnatic Music) is from Central Asia.

regards

Kabuli

Navin,
you say - ``SPIC MACAY is strictly a Non Political / Secular student based movement....``

Do you know what secular means ?
Do you know that in classical music you always start with a prayer ?

While your intentions may be good - people like you mouth words,
without knowing their meaning.

Cut out that superficiality and ``secular`` drivel. Get to know the classical tradition
in detail from original texts and you will realize how close to ``dharma`` it is.

haideri #14,

South Indian classical music (carnatic) has no influence from Persian/Central Asian Music.

Hindustani classical music has probably been influence by both South Indian and Central Asian Classical music.

What Indian classical music? The indigenous music of India was and still is a dhol and some kar kar karaaa sounding munter (played in south India). The present day Indian classical music known to the Desi public has Central Asian, Persian and Greek roots.

Farzana. The reason why I said that was in reply to Stuka. It doesn`t reflect my inner ideology. It was merely to piss him off.
Rising above the level of people like Stuka I would like to add that it is a good start and would promote good musical exchange among the two nations.
Now about the hindus having Pandits and muslims having Ustads as their Prefix, while women having none: In India, it was not thought good of women to sing. They were considered to be of low class and disturbed moral values. Like Begum Akhtar. She was a great singer but the truth is that she used to live with a Nawab or Raja if he wished her to and took care of her needs. For men this Prefix displays Mastery and Authority over the art, while none was developed for women, because it was considered low. But there is one thing. We consider the word ``bai`` or ``bai ji`` as a word that refers to randi`s. But the truth is that it was used for women of good social and moral level. When did that started to be linked with prostitutes, I don`t know. But it is a shame. It really is that we consider Men when they sing to be great, but women as prostitutes. I mean, consider RoshanAra Begum. She was the best and better than many Male singers. She had great moral, ethical and religious values, but still she was never given a respectable title. Neither in india nor in Pakistan. Even now there is this notion that women singers are not of good upbringing and that is why no title was developed for Women singers

It is interesting t see the currents and countercurrents among and within each respondent. It is obvious that the classical and popular musics are the most obvious bonds between the two population groups. Keep on talking and thinking of the bonds that bind and sooner or later they start acting across the artificial boundaries!!!!!

Hamid:

So why did you say that you like the idea? What a hypocrite.

I would like to report that the artiste community in Pakistan is not at all narrow-minded. They are proud of their identity and yet graciously accept that much of their heritage is part Indian.

I have often wondered, though, as to why Hindu musicians prefix their names with Pandit and Muslims with Ustad...and why is there no honorific title for women? Gangubai Hangal, Shobha Gurtu, Kishori Amonkar...

#11 by hamid_81:

[People like me would probably NEVER go where Hindus are playing. And frankly, hindu artists should not be allowed to perform in Pakistan.]

Don`t say that, please. Not after even sideys like Shilpa Shetty get feted there...

People like me would probably NEVER go where Hindus are playing. And frankly, hindu artists should not be allowed to perform in Pakistan.

SPIC MACAY