Indian Classical Music in Lahore

#11 by hamid_81

[People like me would probably NEVER go where Hindus are playing. And frankly, hindu artists should not be allowed to perform in Pakistan.]

Only then would you stand a chance.

Veeresh:
``.....SPIC MACAY was first launched and the aim expressed was not to fight Westernisation but the process of deculturisation. ``

SPIC MACAY was the best reponse by the modern Indian culture towards the cultural imperialism of the West! This is way that modern Islamic societies should repond to the influences of West which they want to avoid in their societies.
Unfortunately they have left it on the mullah brigade to represent their society who can only come up with Anti-Vice Policing!!

#2 by dionysus

[``Indian classical music``? We call it Pakistani classical music.]

Too bad for you, the world will continue to call it ``Indian`` classical music.

``#6 by harimau on August 31, 2004 8:34am PT
Ref dionysus #2

[``Indian classical music``? We call it Pakistani classical music.]

Personally, I tend to call it ``Persian Classical Music`` or ``Hindustani Classical Music``. I refuse to call it ``Shastriya Sangeet`` since I believe this music has only a tenuous connection to any shastras. ``


I have always wondered what ``Shastra`` was followed by the Karnatic Trio when they composed those kritis? I would love to get some more info on this - how many melakartas are mentioned in the Bharat Shastra ? Is the melakarta system mentioned in the shastras??

#12 by FarzanaVersey on August 31, 2004 12:53pm PT

During the days of Darbars honorary titles like Pandit or Ustad were confered by the distinguished gatherings of the Nawab`s or the Maharaja`s Courts. But, with the collapse of the Darbars there remained no such authority to decide and confer such titles. Post independence there were some small time societies which used to confer similar high sounding titles little ``Sangeet KAlanidhi`` to performers who could afford to pay them . However, even that has became unnecessary and now any idiot who can do dir dir like a zombie on the sitar can call himself a Ustad or Pandit after some years of practise. It is nowadays used by the siblings of these erstwhile Ustads as a family title in order to achieve a better publicity of their names not withstanding the deficiencies in their skills.After 1947 most of the musicians had the decency of not faking these terms before their names if these honourable titles were not confered by the distinguished authorities of pre-independence days.
Nowadays titles like Ustad or Pandit have no meaning because there is no system of accredition of such titles by some competent authority like we have in case of other titles like Dr, CPA etc.

#22 Farzana
I think the honorific is a legacy of the mughal days altho nowadays anyone with students takes on the titles as a matter of course. No such titles are used among Carnatic artistes except for the ones conferred on them by the governments (Sangeeta Kalamani, Natya Sigamani, etc.)

Way to go!! I`ve attended a couple of their concerts and the organization is top quality, so are the performers. I believe most of the performers do it for the cause of music and don`t charge much (or probably nothing).

BTW, is music sanctioned by Islam :-)

Music knows no boundaries. Good job done by SPIC MACAY

Rightly has Shakespeare said of music:

“The man that has no music in himself, nor is moved with sweet concord of sweet sound, is fit for treason, stratagems and spoils.”

#15 by hamid_81:

Thanks for the response. Re. the prefixes for men, true it has to do with mastery over their art (though we have greenhorns too being so honoured, or honouring themselves). My problem is, why have different ones for Hindus and Muslims? What language/religion does such music have? A Mehdi Hassan would use a certain raag for a classical ghazal and a Pandit Bhimsen Joshi for a classical bhajan.

Re. women not getting an honorific prefix, you mention the case of Begum Akhtar (since she was Akhtari bai, I thought Begum was the respectable title given to her) and how she had a nawaab/raja take care of her. But then male musicians too have needed patrons, and in these days it is sponsors.

I do not agree with you that these days women singers are still not considered to be from a good background. Times have changed and all the women I mentioned are seen as respectable, and the thumri which was earlier associated only with the mujra is now a part of the repertoire of classical music performances, often together with the holier raags...

One needs to remember that most true artistes see music as ibaadat/dharma and to see this aspect as being contradictory to secularism is essentially foolish. Both the Sufi and Bhakti movements that are so alike in their depth of thought and action gave rise to some wonderful music, and they were extremely secular. Shankar-Shambhu were a duo who sang only qawwalis in praise of `god` and devotion...and they were practising Hindus.

I am glad you believe the music exchange is a good idea and am happy that this group is making an attempt.

I agree with Khilnani, give youth a chance.

I was there in 1979 for the IIT-Delhi function, and remember a young Amjad Ali Khan landing up at IIT-D in a yellow Merc.There was also a free concert in the park at Lodi Gardens by Ravi Shankar around the same time which went on till dawn.

Please understand that those were emerging days for India, just out of the Emergency and moving slowly towards sharing matters which were tradionally, till then, only for the elite.

From their website . . .the ``big bang`` of SPIC MACAY came in 1972 at a concert of Ustad Nasir Aminuddin Dagar and Ustad Zia Fariduddin Dagar at the Brooklyn Academy of Music in New York. After a few sporadic concerts (notable amongst them was that of Ustad Ali Akbar Khan) at Columbia University, New York, under the aegis of the India Club of Columbia University during the period 1972-76, the idea took a more defined direction in 1977 in India. However in 1979, a two-day programme again at IIT Delhi of Ustad Bismillah Khan, Dagar Bandhu, Ustad Amjad Ali Khan and Ustad Sitahid Parvez turned out to be a marginal success. MEFYS( Mechanical Engineering Final Year Students) organized the programme. It was at this programme that the name SPIC MACAY was first launched and the aim expressed was not to fight Westernisation but the process of deculturisation.

The first lecture-demonstration series LEC-DEM`79 was also conducted in the same year when six Delhi based artistes, Pandit Birju Maharaj, Smt.Sonal Mansingh, Ustad Asad Ali Khan, Dagar Bandhu and Ustad Munnawar Ali Khan gave three presentations at the Jawaltar Lal Nehru University (Godavari Hostel), Lady Irwin College and Miranda House respectively. The name FEST for our annual festival was first used in 1980 and FEST 80 was conducted in a number of educational institutions all over Delhi. Fest`81 took SPIC MACAY to Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Bangalore, Calcutta, and Kharagpur. In 1982, the first lecture-demonstration series in schools was conducted when Ustad Zia Mohiuddin Dagar, Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, and Smt. Sonal Mansingh gave three lec-dems each at Modern School, Barakhamba Road, Sardar Patel Vidyalaya & Ramjas School no.3````

All the best.

Re:haideri#14

Indian classical music started at the time of the vedas, when the key raags and the overall musicology was developed. So if we consider Aryans to be central asians, I guess, it is central asian classical music. But then, we all came from Africa, so maybe we should call it African classical music.

re: MaheshG2

I believe that the Tanpura (Tambura in Carnatic Music) is from Central Asia.

regards

Kabuli

Navin,
you say - ``SPIC MACAY is strictly a Non Political / Secular student based movement....``

Do you know what secular means ?
Do you know that in classical music you always start with a prayer ?

While your intentions may be good - people like you mouth words,
without knowing their meaning.

Cut out that superficiality and ``secular`` drivel. Get to know the classical tradition
in detail from original texts and you will realize how close to ``dharma`` it is.

haideri #14,

South Indian classical music (carnatic) has no influence from Persian/Central Asian Music.

Hindustani classical music has probably been influence by both South Indian and Central Asian Classical music.

What Indian classical music? The indigenous music of India was and still is a dhol and some kar kar karaaa sounding munter (played in south India). The present day Indian classical music known to the Desi public has Central Asian, Persian and Greek roots.

Farzana. The reason why I said that was in reply to Stuka. It doesn`t reflect my inner ideology. It was merely to piss him off.
Rising above the level of people like Stuka I would like to add that it is a good start and would promote good musical exchange among the two nations.
Now about the hindus having Pandits and muslims having Ustads as their Prefix, while women having none: In India, it was not thought good of women to sing. They were considered to be of low class and disturbed moral values. Like Begum Akhtar. She was a great singer but the truth is that she used to live with a Nawab or Raja if he wished her to and took care of her needs. For men this Prefix displays Mastery and Authority over the art, while none was developed for women, because it was considered low. But there is one thing. We consider the word ``bai`` or ``bai ji`` as a word that refers to randi`s. But the truth is that it was used for women of good social and moral level. When did that started to be linked with prostitutes, I don`t know. But it is a shame. It really is that we consider Men when they sing to be great, but women as prostitutes. I mean, consider RoshanAra Begum. She was the best and better than many Male singers. She had great moral, ethical and religious values, but still she was never given a respectable title. Neither in india nor in Pakistan. Even now there is this notion that women singers are not of good upbringing and that is why no title was developed for Women singers