Trailing End of the Middle Class at Shaadi Online

i think ur argument is soooooooooo RIGHT!! i agree with u 100%....but then again the ppl who read these articles..or check these websites..r from them 7.96 % ..who believe that EVERY1 is doing the same..rather than using there intelligence they r ignorant of the fact that ppl out there r not so lucky like them...they not only dont seem to care..they really do not know...

dear raza,
you say in your article:
``In all, for the first time I saw “people”, our people, regular folks trying to make a living, trying to improve their condition and while doing all that, having some fun``.

7.96 of 1000 people in pakistan use the internet. of these it is safe to assume a sizable chunk belongs to upper class people. what brought you to the absurd conclusion that OUR PEOPLE, REGULAR PEOPLE are going to these online shows and doing all this when only 8 out a thousand peolpe have access to the internet and out of those 8 atleast 3 are the upper class. our regular folk are living in the village milking cows and breaking their backs for the rich corrupt land lords most of who cant even spell internet let alone use it.

the folk that show up on this website and other sites like it are not a representative group. you and i are not a representative group. open the local pages of Dawn and you`ll find people committing suicide and killing their families because they cant feed themselves. You`ll read about poeple in villages killing their women in the name of honor with no regard for laws. you will read about nameless faceless people dying left and right due to hunger or the extreme heat, or because they drank bad water or something or this sort. these people come closer to the Regular folk you talk of. you see a few corollas rollin around in karachi and paved roads in lahore and you conviniently forget to look at the shanty towns down the road. you see a woman advertise herself on shaadi online and say hey, shes all modern and confident and you forget that so many more women just like her have to advertise and sell their bodies everyday just to have sometihng to eat.

dont insult your country by judging its soundness by an internet portal and the eight of a thousand people who can use the internet. a lot more needs to be done to bring pakistan to its rightful and achievable glory than having people married online and, as a result, having more mouths to feed in a country already starving, and more thirsts to quench in a country already lacking clean water and more people to employ in a country already devoid of decent employment. if you live abroad, sending some money home will work way more wonders than surfing the internet.

Regarding # 29
Nikki7777, you are right on a few points. most of your conditions do not exist in pakistan. and i dont see any hope in the near future. what i dont understand is this. i have indian friends and one of them went to mumbai recently (dec 2003) and dehli and calcutta and stuff. he saw such abject poverty there and i was shocked at his descriptions. what middle class does india boast of when such poverty is prevalent in her cities. i do not have numbers in front of me so i am not sure if my indian friends observations hold true in every indian city or village. it is a big country as you have pointed out.
what i would love to know from you or anyone who lives in india or has had the good fortune of living there is that what progress and economic well being are you guys talking about when over 350 million of indians are below the poverty line and when forty percent of indians are illeterate.

i must stresss that i am not saying that pakistan is superior in any way. again i dont have numbers but i am sure pakistan is worse off in these numbers too. and ofcourse pakistan is no where near as good in the political arena. but regardless of all that, to have over 350 million below the poverty line and 40 percent illeterate is a huge smudge on indias face. please explain to me if india, with one of the best democracies in the world and because of that, with a govt that represents the People in the truest sense of the word is anywhere near combating these problems.

i just took out the time and checked out the shadi.com website..if your tryin to promote it your doing a good job..i think your article was very informative and a good read but i dont understand..why its being turned into a comparison btw India Pak women..just relax ppl n enjoy the article!

Your article highlighted a very important issue Raza. A very good read indeed!
I remember when Shaadi Online had started, people had taken it as an entertainment show where the could sit back, comment and have fun at the expense of others, as you so rightly mentioned in your article.But over a passage of time, Shaadi Online has proved to be more than a matchmaking site.

Firstly, it addressed a somewhat sensitive issue of marriage. Which isn`t so sensitive but has been made so in our society. Women came on this show, not showing their desperation to get married, but their will to break out of the barriers of the society and find a better and happy life. Initially many thought that bringing women into this show and asking them about their marriage plans and their hopes etc was vulgar. But it is anything but that. It is a way to empower the middle class women of our society and Geo must be commended much for this effort.

Issues like `Jehaz` and `joint family systems` are also addressed in this show which is healthy too. Its about time that people in our country stood up and spoke their minds about these things. Through Shaadi Online, these issues are coming forth and being discussed in households where there are girls and boys of marriageable age.

As far as having an online community is concerned, I think it requires much more effort.
But as somebody on chowk had written once, websites like naseeb.com are bringing together people from all sorts of classes on one platform. And yes, chowk happens to be one such place too!

thanx Raza for providing something for us to ponder on!

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re:#24 by razalatif
Creating a middle class through Internet seems an arduous task. It is something that happens and cannot be forced.
still, u may want to make a beginning by identifying a core group interested in this task. Once u identify such a group, you may want to get together and forge a strategy. I can`t write a strategy for you. It has got to be unique for Pak, given its socio-political situation.
First of all, have you identified what is it that prevents the emergence of a huge middle class in Pak? I am not sure if i know the answer.
Sridhar

``Maybe if you stopped reading everything as an india-pak comparo you would then be objective.I pray for the day pakistanis will stop being so hung up on india.``

generalizations, anyone?

My father often comments that the average Shaadi Online participant is earning 10-20000 bucks a month. He thinks that`s strange, but reminds us how life is for most people out there.

I think it`ll be worthwhile to give the link of hte website for further comments.
[b]www.shaadionline.tv[/b]. Alternately, a mirror version (which somehow has a slightly different interface) runs at [b]www.geo.tv/shaadionline[/b].

Enjoy!

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Thanks for all the kind comments on the article. I guess, the question that I have posed is ``If we can overcome the shortcomings of the people of Pakistan that they suffer because of the intellectual and social lifelessness of our downtowns, by building efficient online communities for all to come and join (like Shaadi Online) with any and all constructive themes, we might be able to speed up the growth of our middle class. Any takers?``

It would be nice if some of you can throw in some ideas about setting up online communities aimed at solidifying and increasing the middle class in Pakistan.

nikki,

I think the reason you manage to offend so many people is that you persist in making sweeping generalizations that amount to ``India Good, You Lot Bad``. We all know no one here is a saint, but when you make generalizations about , for instance, south asian women and contrast them with the new crop of Indian women you`re so proud of, you sound, well, a bit thick, really. Are there no women who fall into the `traditional south asian woman` category in India? Are there no socially conscious young women entering the work force in other south asian countries? Expressing opinion is one thing. Expressing ignorance of facts is quite another.

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re: this article
A good read.
re: #4 by kewlfi and # 7 by bongdong
Both of u are right in your own ways.
India is justified to be proud as it is one of the few democracies in that part of the world but it has a long way to go to be an egalitarian and just society.
My brother once said it in jest that God intended USA to be a role model for everyone. May be he was right.
India`s biggest problem is the baggage from the past. Caste is one big minus. Though democrazy should have done away with caste, this has not happened. Elections are fought on caste-lines. A Yadav (however good he/she may be) cannot stand and win on his/her merits alone from say a Jat domintated region.
Marriages are also caste-based. I am not sure what happens after a boy and girl meet over internet and decide to get married. Do they then go back and arrange the marriage thr` their parents? Internet has sadly not done away with the caste system. It reinforces it in everyway.
India is a society in transition. It is however on the right path. It wil take a long time to transition to a modern society where individual efforts are valued more than caste and place of birth. The good news is that the growing middle class in big cities are forging ahead and shedding the old baggage that i talked about.
In India (as well as in Pak), historically a lot of importance is given to family, family honor etc. Family has preserved the age old customs and culture but today that role is no more needed. Just like joint family is not needed anymore, the age old family affiliation is a liability today. I know of people who think it is O.K to take bribes to put their children thr` a private medical school. It does not dawn on them that this is unethical. Indians place more premium on family than on the country and its institutions. Few pay taxes. Few follow civic or traffic rules. They will do anything for their children but will not cast a second glance on a poor man dying on the street. One of my colleagues who is hispanic and goes abroad to do charity work (he is a surgeon) was shocked to see so many homeless on the streets in India. It is not just a govt` s job. It is people`s job.
People in USA are more patriotic as they care more for the downtrodden, give more to charities, are more law abiding, pay their taxes etc
Anyway, i will stop here. I think i have made my point.
Sridhar

nikki7777 So true, although when we talk about the region we represent same region but mentality across the borders are so different.
Wondering how come he was happy with maxima…. He got such a shity taste…
Contrary to that my ex-roommate who is grandson of a famous ex chief minister of Gujarat returned back to India without paying his university loan… coz all he needed was a picture in graduation gown to put in his office….. such a smart Indian huh??

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I totally agree with urstruly at 1. there are no shortcuts in life, creating a healthy and vibrant online community cannot happen unless we try and address Pakistans fundamental issues of poverty and discrimination which have permeated every sphere of our existence.
I still support Shaadi online as it does bring the message of some hope to countless millions
in atleast one aspect of their miserable life.

Nikki...censuring free speech is one thing. Stopping people from verbally abusing each other for the hell of it is another. Your post, which I have copied and pasted unedited below, does not, to my mind, serve any useful purpose. I am just trying to point out that, if we choose to interact with one another, we need to be more civilised.

Your post:

According to an elderly pakistani gentleman who lives in the same building as myself, all pakistanis do is ``eat and make babies``.....end of quote.And, i might add, this comment was made this August , after he had returned from a month long visit to karachi.Some of his other comments are``.....the punjabi-log have destroyed everything in pakistan, they used to kill indian immigrants and take over their businesses in the old days etc.``......He`s not a `mohajir` nor a punjabi, nor do i know how true all this is.I just find it amusing. hehe.

My deepest condolences to all Pakistanis on the death of writer Ishfaq Ahmad. May God bless his soul and comfort his loved ones. The one and only sufi writer in Pakistan has left us.

HE

You are right. I was too quick and too harsh to judge my own people. I was so wrong. I apologize to all.

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Yeah, Nikki, I am shocked! he should have at least changed his model of car every year, doncha think? :)

And India surely is in any top 10 list of corrupt countries in the world. Do you really think all of the things you accuse others does not go on in our own country. We really can not afford to throw stones at others my dear. This has little to do with the article but my experience with Arab cultures and peoples have been amazingly good. I have many North African and Middle eastern friends- they are really the nicest people. I have my cribs, an Arab employee can often be a pain, but they are the politest and friendliest people in the world. Really.

Like I said rudeness is our forte. Its nothing to be proud of either. Someone says something nice about India and you are rude and insulting to people in his forum? Crash course in manners is sorely required.

Nice article Raza!

Btw...nikki7777 needs to be banned. He/she/it doesnt bring anything useful to these discussions.

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#1 by Urstruly

I don`t think Pakistan has entirely failed to build an efficient and healthy society.

The Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital, Agha Khan Rural Support Programme, Orangi Pilot Project, Edhi Foundation, etc are just a few examples of how talented, determined and capable we Pakistanis are. These projects have been a spectacular success and have been made possible largely with indigeneous resources.

Unfortunately most of these success stories are in the private sector. The record of public sector enterprises and government projects is sorry indeed. Corruption, red tape and politics plays a major role in these projects.

And since government is still the largest provider of basic services (e.g. electricity, retail banking, transportation, telephones, etc) in Pakistan... the middle class is affected by these inefficiencies.

WAPDA, PTCL, Railways, CBR, UBL and PIA are like behemoths that pay very little attention to customer service. Perhaps these enterprises should outsource some of their public-oriented services to private sector.

#4

kewlfi, compared to the middle east maybe we are more egalitarian. Dont know too much about Europe, but we are nowhere close to America.

One example I like to give is that I used to run (and coach) large groups of people (ranging from early 20`s to mostly in their 30`s and 40`s) here in the US. After a few months as I got to know people better I realized that people I ran with ranged from millionaires to ``white collar`` workers to housewives to people who were waiting tables for a living to down and out on their luck veterans. I cant imagine such a diverse group (class, gender, race, nationality) of people taking part in ANY social activity in India. In my opinion Indian`s so much more class-concious as a society.

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Hi,

that was one of the smartest articles I read in a long time. I am one of those middle class Indian women who went corporate, and have lived in Europe and the Middle east. And yes I met those elegant Pakistani men and women you talk of, who were always very nice, but I wondered the same thing. More interestingly the entire Arab corporate world in the middle East are dominated by foreign educated or educated in American Univ people. Many of these reported to me over the years and I often wondered how come you never so people from older universities like Cairo Univ e.g. And also that my parents could not afford to send me to AUC had they been Egyptian. And yet Egypt`s social make up is very like India`s. BUt my point is not to be self congratulatory about my country. Its just that fellow Indians do not sem to realise what there is to be proud of. One of my proudest moments as an Indian was in ALgeria. Where some head honchos of local MNCs over dinner suddenly talked about how much they admired the fact that India was a democracy. And I was so embarrassed because the Gujarat riots were full swing at the time. But over the years in many Arab and SE Asian countries older and even young people have told me that they admire our democracy. And I think they are serious. Waht makes me sad is that fellow Indians do not realise that its our democracy and social mobility is what makes us special and yes, despite our infereiority complex, even admired. Compared even to Europe ours is a more mobile society and I kid you not.

And what do fellow Indians harp on about. How great it is that we have a bomb. How India needs a military dictatorship. How we are smarter than everyone else. Its amazing the number of my fellow Indians who talk of how democracy and secularism are the key problems of India. Its only after I left India that I realised how vibrant and important our democracy is. And the fact is we are not polite we are belligerant and pushy. But this too comes from believing we can do better if we really try. I know, I digress, but the idea of a secular, democratic India needs to be celebrated more by Indians, and also protected. Not just to be rude to our neighbours, but for ourselves. You know what I mean?

We can give the cradit of this achievement to our present government and the channel who is working for it.

It`s cradit goes to present government

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A curious thing was how lately i had been thinking about the same class issues ... maybe our Clocks that were set in Topi had something to do with it :) . Talking of the ``small world``, you were right on the money. I hope you carry on writing.

peace.

I do not understand that when a society cannot build a healthy and efficient community in real world then how can it buid an efficient community in the cyber-world - it is simply not possible. Just take a look around you at this community called Chowk. With some scarce and miniscule exceptions (me included), it just reflects the pathetic and sorry state of our real life existence as a society. What could have been the the cauldron of ideas and interaction is a sorry goop of our inherent ugliness. There are no shortcuts in life.