2004: One Year Closer to Nineteen Eighty-four

labyrinth,

``Every country has there intrests and most of them do whats best in there national intrest and if its USA , they do what is best for them in long term when if they have to invade Mars .``

Everybody, their aunt, and her pet dog are familiar with ``realpolitik``. Here`s another bit: piss enough people off enough of the time, and you`ll eventually get ``blowback``, i.e. pursuing the nation`s interest has it`s price. So, given this bit of ``realpolitik`` do we tell the Americans to shuddup and stop whining about 9-11 already?! I think your answer is gonna be ``no``...and I think it should be no as well...

vertex

Well - if you go beyond the jargons ( terrorist/freedom fighter, state rights/civil rights etc, international law etc etc....) and get down to the basics - that`s what you have. If you employ violence to achieve whatever political goals and ``just causes`` then you must expect counter-violence in return. And when you are the small guy - you can never expect any mercy. All your moral outrage , at that point, is meaningless. I mean - what were you folks thinking - that america will sit quietly???

``Decades of intervention`` and other real or imagined sins of the US have to countered in other ways. For example - muslim countries must reform, drop islam as a political tool, go for democracy, educate the population, reform the mindset, participate in world`s economy like other civilized people. Only then the ``intervention`` from outside soruces will stop. Only then you will get respect and your place in the comity of civilized people. it`s a long haul, it needs leadership, enlightenment, moderation, change of mindset - there is no short-cuts for this. No amount of whining will do.

Muslims are not the only people who have been ``intervened``. There have been others - vietnamese, koreans, latin americans etc... Are they flying planes into buildings? No - why? Think. Learn from them. Evolve out of your bedouin mindset. You can`t use violence as a tool. You must realize that. Your penchant for violence at the drop of a hat has finally met its match. Nobody in this world is surprised at such turn of events.

Besides, arabs and wannabe-arabs were very much in hand-in-hand with the Americans while you folks were fighting the godless communists. Allah and America were best of buddies. So you should know how it works.

America knows how it works. And they are going to make it work. You should be prepared. It`s too late for moral outrages of any kind.

``All your moral outrage , at that point, is meaningless. I mean - what were you folks thinking - that america will sit quietly???``

My moral outrage is reserved for those who speak in moral terms. FYI, your use of terms like ``you folks`` misses a key distinction between terrorist violence and (much more destructive, brutal) American one. The terrorist violence is by a lunatic fringe. You would kindly refrain from saying things like ``you folks``. As for the American one, well...you can get away with it 53% (or whatever the latest poll figures are) of the time...

Needless to say, you`re right. Obviously they won`t sit quietly. That`s a seriously misguided way of thinking...it`s almost a compliment. The neo-con capacity for violence and nation-rape has been seriously underestimated. Dumb, dumb dumb. As dumb as the war on terror. I don`t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that the various adventures around the war is, if anything, validating the terrorist stance and generating more terrorists. But then, I wonder if that`s really a concern...

````Decades of intervention`` and other real or imagined sins of the US have to countered in other ways. For example - Muslim countries must reform, drop islam as a political tool, go for democracy, educate the population, reform the mindset, participate in world`s economy like other civilized people.``

Other civilized people who turn a blind eye to 100k+ murders in the name of some other state-sponsored cause? Your notion of civility needs much to be desired. Terrorism is hardly the harshest expression or manifestation of human violence.

Needless to say, power comes from some of that you stated. Muslims countries need to do what every other ambitious country does. Understand the sources of, and to seek, power. Enough of this bandying about visions of some Utopia. Screw it. India has it right here, at least.

There is already enough influence in terms of oil wealth...what is needed is a bit of unity and coherence in vision. It`s this lack of direction, and this crony rule that needs to be first eliminated. Here the Islamists are actually bang on in their attitudes (OBL was the first, and for all I know only, proponent of internationalizing local conflicts). Just they have no vision to complement their list of grievances.

``Only then the ``intervention`` from outside sources will stop. Only then you will get respect and your place in the comity of civilized people.``

Screw other ``civilized people`` if they`re willing to justify slaughter on the basis of simply being weak. The respect of savages who deem themselves as civil should be the goal of no one. It is sufficient to seek power for the sake of independence. Let all else flow naturally, and at our own pace.

``Muslims are not the only people who have been ``intervened``. There have been others - vietnamese, koreans, latin americans etc... Are they flying planes into buildings? No - why?``

Because they either won, are beat, or are too embrolied in their current messes to do so. That`s why. Plain and simple. This is a silly defense of American ``interventions``.

``Think. Learn from them.``

LOL, what the hell is there to learn from Vietnam, Cambodia or Nicaragua?!

``Evolve out of your bedouin mindset.``

LOL, okay into a neo-con one:

Muslims must work to ``contain`` and subjugate other nations that are ideologically at odds, and must rely on the use of deadly force at large scales to ensure our supremacy throughout the world - to the extent of ensuring total annihilation or at the very least mutually-assured annihilation. I get it. Fabrication of minor threats into larger ones for mobilization of mass support (``the kafirs are coming!``) is a cool trick, and necessitates and validates the `us or them` attitude that our Islamists have always had. No need to get rid of that useful attitude. I get that too. The only, and penultimate, concern for Muslims shall be pursuits for our material interests - even if it is to the detriment of others. Cool, I think my evolution is well on it`s way. Thank you for showing us the way to a ``new Muslim century``.

``Besides, arabs and wannabe-arabs were very much in hand-in-hand with the Americans while you folks were fighting the godless communists.``

Geez, it`s amazing how some Indians are still nostalgic for the old soviet Union. Get over it, it`s gone. And it was a handful of Arab dictators (propped up by the US) that fought a war (that would have been apparently been avoidable) designed by (including the Holy war bit) America...despite the fact that Muslims had much bigger things to worry about. Geez, isn`t it great to have a friend that will point you in the right direction from time to time...

vertex
//..There is already enough influence in terms of oil wealth...what is needed is a bit of unity and coherence in vision..//

You are getting it. All you need to do is invest the oil wealth in people. Educate and empower. Produce. Manufacture. Contribute to the world at large. Get a share of world trade and economy. Just like Malayasia, Dubai, Brunei. You have examples to follow.

Nobody will ever invade Malayasia - why?? Your answer lies there.

But so far you have done exactly opposite - invested oil wealth in spreading islamic fundamentalism, medievalism, madrassas and mullahs, narrow ideologies. You have used oil wealth to create havoc around the world. This was bound to happen. You love to talk about ``blowback`` - now that`s the ``blowback`` for you guys. How does that feel???

+++

//...Because they either won, are beat, or are too embrolied in their current messes to do so....//

Nope. They choose to move on. No whining. No victim mentality. Rebuild, Reorganize. Look to future, for the next generation. Now S. Korea is a first world country. Vietnam is getting much better economically. Latin America is still mired in mess of course - but sooner they will get back on their feet.

Because they choose to move on. They choose to employ the tool that works - trade and business. The other american force. The other side of american coin. The side that produces, invents, builds, donates, heals, educates. The good side. Have you thought about employing that tool? Of course not.

+++

//...Geez, it`s amazing how some Indians are still nostalgic for the old soviet Union....//

Nope. Just pointing out your past foolishness. Learn from mistakes. It was not just ``some dictators``. Entire ummah was cooing after Allah-America freindship.

``You are getting it. All you need to do is invest the oil wealth in people. Educate and empower. Produce. Manufacture. Contribute to the world at large. Get a share of world trade and economy. Just like Malayasia, Dubai, Brunei. You have examples to follow.``

Heheh, ``you``. Look everyone, ``I`m`` an entire nation of people! How cool.

In response to above: duh. Try it when you`re either prevented or excluded by your ruling class (whose security apparatus is trained and supported by you know who). Like I said, Islamists have the right ideas, just no vision and a stupid strategy. OBL represented a bunch of Saudis. Why? Why do you think rank-and-file Saudis in particular are so upset with America? Any honest reading (and I`m not talking about the Rohan Gunaratnan reading) of OBL`s message is simple: ``leave us alone``. Yours is an assumption that American meddling is somehow an analog of a force of nature. It`s not. Get over the simple fact: by far and wide the influence of America in the middle east and even beyond (say Afghanistan and Pakistan) has been dire. Get over the simple fact: OBL-variety Jihadism was architect by the Americans and co-opted by the Pakis (not the other way around). NO amount of development save becoming a super power would have prevented the kind of meddling they have been doing all along. So your advice makes sense on it’s own merit, however not as a recipe for independence.

``But so far you have done exactly opposite - invested oil wealth in spreading islamic fundamentalism, medievalism, madrassas and mullahs, narrow ideologies. You have used oil wealth to create havoc around the world. This was bound to happen. You love to talk about ``blowback`` - now that`s the ``blowback`` ``

LOL, you have no clue. The ones with the oil monies make regular visits to the Bush ranch. The ones without are the ones blowing back. Cost of friendship. And it`s ``me`` that`s paying for it. Simple fact.

``Nope. They choose to move on. No whining. No victim mentality. Rebuild, Reorganize. Look to future, for the next generation. Now S. Korea is a first world country. Vietnam is getting much better economically. Latin America is still mired in mess of course - but sooner they will get back on their feet. ``

S. Korea is the only one worth talking about. Latin America and Vietnam (who were victorious in a conflict that concluded) are still a major mess. S. Korea is a very good example to follow. Can`t blame people who call a spade a spade though, so if all of the above choose to ignore how they were (emphasis on the past tense) screwed over, that`s their prerogative. Oil still exists, and so the implications are obvious. These are bad examples to prove your point. OBL and his ilk don`t act out for past sins...or so they claim.

Re:vertex#37
OBL`s message is to ``leave us alone``!! Are you kidding? This is the problem with so-called moderate muslims. OBL is leading a world-wide ideological battle with the objective of controlling the middle-east and establishing an extreme, fascist interpretation of Islam. He is responsible for brutal savagery and bloodthirsty behavior, yet moderate muslims like yourself try to find ``root`` causes and other justification for such evil, satanic behavior.

The Islamic world has to take responsibility for its own state of affairs and fix its own problems. The moderates in the Islamic world have to lead this effort. It is as simple as that. All this baloney about dictators, Israel, US is a way to shirk your own responsibility. If you do not exercise caution, I am afraid that we are slowly drifting towards an all-out war between non-muslims and muslims.

Samina,

You a commie? Always mistook you for one of those bleedin heart liberals somehow....

amit,

``OBL`s message is to ``leave us alone``!! Are you kidding? This is the problem with so-called moderate muslims. OBL is leading a world-wide ideological battle with the objective of controlling the middle-east and establishing an extreme, fascist interpretation of Islam.``

I`ve heard this red herring before. And this kind of reasoning is the problem with so-called enlightened defenders of ``civilization. OBL is incapable of wrecking the kind of havoc the American neo-con establishment has already done in the middle east. Stop goin` on about hypothetical threats to the Muslim world when he`s in fact a small time player. And he knows it.

OBL has no intentions of exporting his ideology, whatever it is, beyond Muslim lands. OBL was incapable of exporting his rule to anything beyond a base or two in Afghanistan. I have no idea what his political ambitions were aside from eliminating foreign influences from the Kingdom – which was a stated and explicit goal. (``all american troops must leave the holy land`` was his only real demand). There is no reason, aside from fear mongering, to think he had any other ambitions. There is certainly no reason to fear any kind of military threat from the man. He`s a terrorist. These people are terrorists and not guerilla fighters for a reason....it`s called weakness.

The threat of a new ``evil OBL empire`` emerging is a red herring. It`s designed to justify a neo-con Imperialist agenda. That is the true threat to the Muslim world as we speak. It`s foolish to blab on and on about potential threats from minor players when you already have no less than three nations (one of which has been all but destroyed...and with a very uncertain future) being adversely affected by retarded policies. You speak of fictions, I`m speaking of reality.

``He is responsible for brutal savagery and bloodthirsty behavior, yet moderate muslims like yourself try to find ``root`` causes and other justification for such evil, satanic behavior.``

Whatever. Bombing a city in a shock-and-awe tactic is what? Lying to justify a war on a nation is what? Oh, yeah....they were ``mistakes``. Sorry dude, but that doesn`t fly. You need a sense of scale. But I suppose ignorance is bliss, and whatever is on TV must be the only truth out there. Naturally, there are no civilian deaths in Iraq. That`s all a big lie. Sure.

Consider a General standing there and thinking ``hmmm....can`t charge the city, too risky, may as well bomb the heck out of it...civilians be damned`` and a terrorist thinking ``hmmm...can`t charge the army, they`ll kill is in a minute, to risky. May as well target those civilians over there``. The difference between the two is nominal. Both are satanic and evil modes of thinking, But it is disingenuous to think the two are unlinked, or there is no causation between the two. The thing that drives the terrorist is invariably the initial act by the General. There is a chain (not cycle) of violence, and the lead link is invariably state-sponsored. It`s only a matter of time when someone says ``enough is enough``. OBL is wayyyy down the chain of reactionaries.

So, root cause arguments are valid. Only those with an ideological bent will choose to ignore one over the other. Those people are beyond help. Such people want to treat terrorism for the justification of a civilization conflict, and are incapable of recognizing it for what it is: a tactic of anti-state criminal activity. That sounds too sanitary...can`t win an election or wage spurious wars off of that.

``The Islamic world has to take responsibility for its own state of affairs and fix its own problems. The moderates in the Islamic world have to lead this effort. It is as simple as that.``

This is what magicians call redirection. ``Don`t pay any attention to this hand...``. What you say is true, but it is a parallel problem. You have offered no evidence that the neo-con Americans are willing to deal in good faith with Arab countries even if they are developing well. There is no reason to believe that their attitudes in the middle east will change one bit. Lack of development is not the reason for American medaling in the region. They are interested in pliancy and obedience, not in freedom, for regions where their immediate interests lie. The Middle east has the curse of oil. They had it good in the Cold war when there was a balance of power. The honey moon is over.

No amount of development or education save the Middle east becoming a super power in it`s own right would change that. Your solution is to pretty much take part in the American dominated system, grab a cut of the pie, precludes the possibility of the latter since it is a stated American policy to ensure no rivals to American power appear. Sorry, but this is a problem with America that Americans need to solve. Redirection and obvious, conceited and condescending advice doesn`t help a bit.

There is a simple fact of geopolitics and that`s Americans pursue their policies even if it is to the determent of others (depending on the importance of the policies, of course). It is this attitude that is the cause of American headaches in the world. Americans of good faith want to change that, and not make excuses.

vertex
//...that American meddling is somehow an analog of a force of nature. ..//

I think you are too hung-up on this ``meddling`` business. That kind of sin can be attributed any other significant country in the world. China, Russia, Britain, India, Pakistan, Saudis, Iraqis, Iranis, Israel - they call meddle elsewhere according their strength and position and perceived national interest.

If your entire argument is based on the ``interventions`` theory - then we are not going anywhere. Unless you are living in some isloated island - meddling and other such negative interations(alongwith positive interactiosn) will keep happening between nations . Get over this simple fact.

Americans meddle in Saudi land, Saudis meddle in america too, saudis are meddling in pakistan also. Are pakis going to blow up a building in riyadh because of the meddling? China meddles big time in Pakistan - are pakis going to blow up chinese capital too??

There has to be other ways to stop the meddling than blowing up buildings.

+++

Your point regarding neo-con agenda is well-taken. But if you put the entire blame on the neo-cons for all that is wrong with muslims - you are stretching it too far. Unless you reform your won socieities - you cannot progress - neo-cons and other boogeymen notwithstanding. That`s another very simple fact for you to grasp.

++++

//.. if all of the above choose to ignore how they were (emphasis on the past tense) screwed over, that`s their prerogative....//

They don`t ignore it - they have got over it. Because that`s the only way to move forward.

+++

Anyway - I have put forward some ways to move forward. What is your solution? What is your proposal to stop the ``meddling``? We know - OBL`s methods won`t work.

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arjun_m

Jeez, your ignornat of the whole history of the conflict. Circa gulf war I, OBL got uber pissed at the Saudis for not letting him and his band of merry men kick saddam out of Kuwait (as if). Sooooo, he concluded that this must be some great alliance between Royal family and the Americans. Well, duh.

His primary concern, and his first demand, was that Americans leave the holy land. All else was of no concern untill he realized that he could implicate Americans in other conflicts around the world and futher his agenda by copting those causes.

His list of greivences is a new development post-911. In any case, nowhere is there evidence of a coherent political ideology being espoused. There is no reason to beleive he is sincire in invoking those causes. He had more than enough time to do so pre-911. Note he was an american ally even as many of the things he complained about was being carried out.

Needless to say, you missed his point c

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah`s wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.


This is his personal quest. Everything else is simply a compodium of common, and some valid, complaints. I see no ideology in his demands.

Now, my dear arjun_m, let us not forget my point: the man is small time. Period.

Re: his popularity in S.A. and Pakistan....what about it? He`s revered if anything as a resistance fighter, not as the man with a neo-con ``final solution``. Now I`m still trying to figure out how a liar has 53% of the American vote...or whatever the toll is now...jeebus.

---

Mohar11,

Yes, pakis do meddle in Afghanistan for example. If indeed they suffered terrorist violence as a response, Indians would be the first to thumb their noses at the pakis. What is your point? Everyone`s doiing it...?! Root cause dude, root cause...

Vertex:

What`s the point of this? Do we really give a rat`s ass about Bin Laden`s demands? ts not like anyone is gonna sit across a table and negotiate with him.

As far as you are concerned, I guess it must be really comforting to know that your tax dollars are used to kill those whom you sympathoze with. Ofcourse, ain`t no wall holding you in.



``soundmeister on September 9, 2004 6:07am PT
Samina,

You a commie? Always mistook you for one of those bleedin heart liberals somehow.... ``

Same difference dude.

As usual, all of it comes down to Standard Format Left Liberal Whining (SFLLW). Bush lied, OBL was not great a threat, corporations are controlling everything, Israel is being cruel etc etc. Same was the case during the Cold War. When al-Qaeda is finished off like Communism was, the SFLLW will latch on to some other nemesis of the liberal democratic order. What a pity that so many talented people and brilliant minds waste their time regurgitating the same stuff while enjoying to the hilt the benefits of liberal democracy and corporation dominated free markets.

The pent up rage against George W Bush is almost reminiscent of childhood tantrums. He is so offensive to the SFLLW crowd precisely because he takes no nonsense from their idols-Castro, Saddam, Osama. He makes no apologies for being forthright about defending America. And, most offensive of all, he WINS! That rankles the SFLLW crows to no end.

As for comparing Hitler with George W. Bush, apart from its patent offensiveness (I am the grandson of WWII vets), it is beyond ridiculous. In Hitler`s world you wouldn`t have a CHOWK discussion on your article; the only discussion you`d have had would have been with fellow concentration camp inmates.

And yes, Bush is going to win in November and I`ll be proud of contributing my taxes to a new generation of space based anti-missile defense. And then, I hope it`ll be Iran`s turn. And then Syria`s--unless they mend their ways like old Muammar Gaddafi did.

stuka,

Read the rest of the posts, and everything will be clear. No, no one is going to negotiate with him. Like I said, he`s small time.

As far as I`m concerned, I`m comforted to know that not all Americans are neo-con retards. There is hope yet.

stuka,

Read the rest of the posts, and everything will be clear. No, no one is going to negotiate with him. Like I said, he`s small time.

As far as I`m concerned, I`m comforted to know that not all Americans are neo-con retards. There is hope yet.