The Tale of Five Rivers

HP:

Oh acha, I was talking about the guy sent to jail by Musharaf for speaking against Army. He is Punjabi from PML (N). Javed Hashmi I think his name is, but I could be wrong.

veeresh

Your post is an evidence that democracy is the method through which a nation saves itself from comitting the same mistakes over and over again. And here we are, where we were 33 years ago.

I have no problem with an open border with India unless the 57 year old issue of just and fair partition is resolved first. I am sorry, but I cannot have a mujra on the corpses of my dead kashmiri brothers and sisters. You have no qualms about the ruthless murder of your own people whom you call your atut ang? that surprises me a lot and makes me wonder whether we should have relationship with such people who have such dualty in their character or not. Would it benefit us or harm us. No one puts his money into the confusion - I wouldn`t.

Urstruly/104, very emphatic and comprehensive response, one that sets the grey cells whirring.

Indian Punjab is, today, a fairly eclectic mix of people from all over the country. Be it diaspora to and from all over the world, educated urban and skilled labour from all over the country in the towns and cities or semi-skilled and unskilled labour in the fields from Bihar, I think Punjab in India is today kind of ``cosmopolitan``. I just happen to drive around in Haryana and Punjab a fair bit, and whether it was in the ``bad days`` of the Khalistan movement or the current boomtown aura, I do not think your ``conspiracy of silence`` argument can apply to Indian Punjab anymore.

There is far too much exposure and option to better times through opportunity in North India now. Anybody from anywhere in the World trying to force any conspiracy down will have another one coming.

What I do think, however, is that the immense and visible difference in prosperity levels between Indian and Pakistani Punjab shall soon cause some equalisation. The opening up of tourism in Pakistan for middle-class Indians will bring hordes of curious and affluent Punjabis with deep pockets, different from the existing crop of typical ultra-rich feudals and ultra-poor peasants visiting relatives.

If you ask me, the increasing Sikh influence in areas around Lahore and Pindi co-terminus with the relentless putsch against the Mullahs is something that speaks for itself to those willing to listen. Money talks, and for 5 decades now Pakistani Punjab has followed the tunes of the Piper from Al-Arabistan, and look what it has got them?

Open discussion on such a subject will bring forth the usual whines from those who would keep their own country in the dark.

I know one thing:- in the `80s, Pakistan Punjab was way ahead of Indian Punjab. Twenty five years later, roles are reversed tremendously.

If Punjab as a whole is to pull itself up, then IMHO two things can happen:- the worse off can pull the better off down, or vice versa.

But to this, add a rider - the better off Punjab, in India, is already demographically and democratically different. I don;t see it letting itself be pulled under again.

And now, bring on the whiners.

Stuka # 85

There is no snake oil here; I am only trying to sell a time machine that enables us to travel back in time. Thirty three years ago, like Mushsraf, Yehya Khan also had an LFO. According to this LFO he held elections where Shiekh Mujib won by a majority vote. By the rules of his own LFO, Yehya should have handed over government to majority leader and retire army to the baracks; but no. Like today he also wanted a constitutional role of army and for himself in the polity and for that he wanted one Jamali. Whereas, Bhutto had no qualms about playing jamali to him, because that was his only conduit to power, Mujib could not because he was answerable to his constituency , which elected him on only one premis that he will send army back to the baracks. These elections were held in Dec 1970 and Yehya would not call the session of National Assembly until March of 1971 when Awami League decided that they had had enough of his shinanigans. Where was Punjab at that time. It was silently conspiring to keep its man - yehya - into the power. So we paid a heavy price for this conspiracy of silence, lost half of the country, and had 90,000 POWs in enemy custody. Punjab remained silent.

And you say that Pak army fought for its country in 1971. No it is a lie. They fought to protect their criminal organization. Discipline is the only key to the survival of any army and what we had were hordes of genocidal maniacs and rapists on lose who were wearing uniform of Pak army. Any army lowers itself to this level when its top leadership is corrupt and have no professionalism and fighting an illegal war. A soldier lowers himself to the level of an animal only when his leadership is unprofessional and criminal minded. What discipline you can expect from an army when the command of that army has no respect for the law and constitution of the country. When leadership is corrupt and morally bankrupt then Abu Gariab happens - when leadership has no moral and legal backbone then genocide of Kashmiris happen - murder and rape of Bengali Muslims and Pakistanis happen. Keep in mind that bengalis took their case of crimes against humanity in the International Tribunal on War crimes in the Hague and retracted their case only when these faujis agreed to give away half of our country in a platter to the enemy to save their own asses.

Now we have the same army with same LFOs and a bunch of chracterless politicians as their underlings. Now it is the same army who have their guns shooting at citizens of Paksitan with total disregard for human life and dignity. Baluch were opposing the establishment of American bases on Baluch soil in 60s and they are opposing the same now (could that be that Baluch instead of being anti-Pakistan are only nationalsits?). And Punjab is silent. Today when Pakistani citizens are fighting their last battle to restore a political leadership to run the polity like any other civilized country in the world, Punjab is silent and standing on the side. This is the last battle. If citizens lose now then we have decades of military oppression written as our destiny. I refuse to accept that Punjabis are so complaisant and slavishly submissive by nature, to oppressors because of some invasions that happened 300 years ago - NO. This misleading propaganda must stop now. Instead it is Punjab`s conspiracy of silence that it sides with oppressors always. Punjab has to develop a backbone if they wish Pakistan to survive as we see it today. How many pieces of country will Punjab give away to survive and keep itself prosper. There aren`t too many left.

The Tamil thread:
Ponniyinselvan #44:
As someone who can speak, read and write in both Tamil and Hindi, I agree with your comments. I have met educated, highly qualified North Indians (not just Hindi speaking, but Gujarathi, Marathi, Punjabi etc) who cannot comprehend that one may not know Hindi and can still be a true Indian. Ignorance of other languages in their own country leads them to impose Hindi on everyone, as a sign of patriotism. Speak Hindi to be Indian is closely related to be Hindu to be Indian and is a sign of the insularity of the Hindi chauvunist. I hate it when people say `South` or `Madrasi` rather than Tamil or Kannada or whatever. I think the many insurgencies in North East are partly due to the overbearing attitude of the Northies!
However, I have met insular Tamilians too. For them, anyone not from South India is a Northie (vadanaattukkaaran) / Hindiwala, without differentiating the Bengali, Gujarathi, Punjabi, Kashmiri etc.
I think Tamilians have done a good thing by being assertive and proud of their language. This is in contrast to Kannadigas and Telugu speakers. However, the biggest threat to languages in India is not Hindi but English. This generation (including myself) can read/write/speak in English better than in any native Indian language. Parents make it a point to speak only in English with their children. There is a huge segment of the English educated that has lost touch with its roots and is becoming a foreigner in their own land. I would be happy if Indians are able to read/write/speak fluently in at least one Indian language - be it Hindi or Tamil or any other.

> How much did our Punjabi speaking ancestors leave behind in written Punjabi?

Romair #some

Languages flower under state support and sponsorship. One can choose to not give state support and sponsorship to one`s own language and then accuse it of not having sufficient `literature.`

Romair #90 ``I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive. That is the most progressive and easiest way for a society to advance. ``

So stigmatizing native languages and their supporters through a massive propaganda campaign and using the whole apparatus of state to enforce Urdu constitutes, in your opinion, a survial of the fittest on a level playing field?

How long do you honestly think Urdu would survive in Pakistan without state patronage?

``What to talk of science, there isn`t even much poetry in Punjabi, in comparison to other languages.``

The canon of Punjabi literature is among the very largest and oldest of all the nations of South Asia.


``How many contributions in medicine are there in Punjabi? What about philosophical and artistic masterpieces? Compare that to what is avaialble in English, or Arabic, or now even in Urdu. ``


This is just too funny! How many ground breaking research papers have been published in Urdu language journals? No, lets make it easier. How many papers, of any quality, have ever been published in Urdu? No, let`s make it easier still. How many institutes impart a scientific education in Urdu? I really would love to know.


``Punjabi has lost out in the battle of languages. It, itself, must have beaten out other languages, in the Punjab area, earlier. If we are so hung up on nationalism, then why stop at Punjabi? Why not go back to the langauge preceeding it in Punjab? ``

Because Punjabi is a language spoken by 120 Million people. No one now, unless you know better, speaks Sanskrit.

ponniyinseylvan: When I commented that there were two thread going, I did not mean it negatively as you assumed. Discussion for the sake of learning something and for adding some knowledge/insights of one`s own (of the kind you were doing) does not diminish the dialogue - it enriches it.

My references to the CREIP was to a totally different type of posters from India - the kind who visit chowk only as an opportunity to ridicule pakistanis from the safety of the internet and to glorify India. Although in their own way they are also (unintentionally) educational, by now I for one have had enough of them and the only use I for one have for them is to have a bit of fun assigning them CREIP numbers.

That said, there is a lot of interesting things going on in the sub-continent, and posters like you from India make chowk a more interesting and educational place to spend time in.

`Pakistan` is nothing more than a conspiracy by the remnants of the old Turko-Afghan elites of Hindustan to retain the privileges they enjoyed for many centuries. The fact that things didn`t work out quite as they intended is another matter altogether.

They saw not only their priveliges but their culture and way of life threatened by an independent India which naturally would now be ruled by the Hindu majority. Somehow, someway they have managed to persuade the descendents of Bhagwan Das and Jaspal Singh in Punjab that he is the heir to the `Islamic` civilization of India and he has to do his utmost to protect it. What in the Lord`s name do the sons of Raja Jaipal Shahi have in common with the sons of Sultan Mahmud???

It is painful to think that Punjabi was an enslaved nation for hundreds of years. It is even more painful and humiliating to think that that slavery hasn`t really ended even now.

no laughing matter this
This is a story ( event?) that happened on 25th august 2003 Sialkot , Panj-Daryaa.

1. A lawyer dies.aug 25 2004
2. civil judges take time off to mourn his death.
3. They assemble in the chambers of the sessions judge for gup-shup (idle talk)
4. Sessions Judge was to visit the jail for inspection that day.
5. The civil judges, 25 or so, decided to give him company.
6. When this baraat of judges entered the jail, some prisoners rioted.
7. They took the judges hostage.
8. Negotiations with the sessions judge included all cases to be dropped & safe passage for the
hostage takers.
9. Negotiations did not work.
10. Police were instructed not to resolve matter violently.
11. Police did.
12. Several judges killed & injured. Some prisoners too.
13. Hostage takers escaped.
14. D.I.G & police were charged on criminal grounds--still on job.
15. The families of the dead & injured judges are going from one door to the next to seek justice but now they are a nobody.
16. Nothing has happened. Nothing will.

From Jang Karachi september 16,2004

Ok satyamvada..as u please.
I really do believe that quest of knowledge should be undertaken for a person by himself herself and that includes all kinds of google searches etc. Spoonfeeding should be avoided.
Anyways..read this.There are quotes in the essay.
http://www.boloji.com/kabir/essays/01.htm

Raw_Dust:
Allow me to burst your bubble of false-expectations from Bangladeshis.

Pre-Islamic poetry especially that of Umr-ulQuais has been a favourite from the prophet`s (pbuh) time to the present day. In all muslim-arab countries pre-Islamic arab poetry is also a must for the curriculum for all..not just literature buffs. Even christians from Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon have been bitten by power & beauty of this language and they do not want any other[ they all told me that]

Just as muslims of Pakistan enjoy themselves to listen to Lata etcs songs but not to express their appreciation for Indian`s occupation for Kashmir. Using western technology is not an endorsement of western `values`. People do things for their own pleasure and not to please or displease `enemies.`

Similarly Tagore is a favourite of Bengalis be they Bangladeshis not. Or are you suggesting that Tagore was a Kaafir? A Brahmu-Samaaj , a fundamentalist believer in non-idolatory, a kaafir? a visitor to the rauzas & maqbraas in iran & Iraq a kafir? the one who had a dialogue with einstein about the essentiality of belief in God a akaafir?

I hope , similarly, Iqbal is being taught to kids in India. No?

ponniyinselvan #87
I think you are right about the entertainment industry.Only Tamil and Telegu have thriving commercial cinema.Is it because of the lack of a big market?Anyways,outstanding movies do get made in other languages as well.Point is,regional languages can coexist with Hindi.
And you know my views already about the three language formula. I personally would have felt lucky to have learnt a more popular language like Tamil Telegu Malyalam Bangla Marathi Punjabi in school instead of Sanskrit.I would perhaps have understood the diversity of India better.

There is an excellent research article by Prof. Tariq Rehman, titled ``Peoples and Languages of pre-Islamic Indus Valley`` with more than 60 references at

http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/peoplesandlanguages.html

All interested must read it for a better understanding of the origins of current languages of the Indus valley. I tried to post this article here but becasue of its sheer size, it did not appear. Some of the findings are:

I. Most of the languages (Sindhi, Sariaki, Punjabi, Hindko and Kashmiri) of the region developed about the same time.

2. They did not get mentioned in literature because Muslim invaders prefered to call all of them Hindvi. Amir Khusro in 1317 mentioned the language spoken in Lahore as Lahori.

3. All Languages evolved from prakrits.

4. Before destruction of Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro, there was definitely more Dravidian component in the languages of the region than now.

5. Kashmir (during Kushans) and Sindh (during Persian rule) were larger than current sizes, as administrative regions.

6. Pashtuns moved into current NWFP and Balochistan during 16th and 17th century from west (Afghanistan). Balochs also moved in the region from west. Thus before Pashtun and Baloch migrations, Indus was not a boundry between prakrits and Indo-Iranian languages. Prakrits were spoken all the way to Kandhar.

7. Two charts very clearly describe the route these languages took and what influenced them along the way.

Romair, how is your Punjabi speaking representative doing in Canadian parliament?....oh I forgot he represents only Canadians..too bad.


I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive.<<

and you idea of ``open market``, and ``fittest competition`` is: enforce Urdu by law and condemn anyone who sticks to his mother language...you got a very fair and balanced system going on.


I am totally against pushing ancient languages for retrogressive nationalistic reasons only.<<

so now Sindhi, balochi and Punjabi are ancient languages? ``retrogressive nationalistic reasons``? you got to define that dude...urdu is the ``retrogressive nationalistic`` language being pushed down people`s throats. You are kind of funny.

if they are allowed to follow the natural course of evolution in Pakistan. <<

natural course?


If people really want to make Punjabi stay, they need to make it economically attractive. Not by saying it will increase or decrease religion and extremism. To do that, they need to start translating science and other books into Punjabi.<<

I gues you did all your scientific education in urdu through translated books. right? If nto why test Punjabi for that? all native lanuages including hindi and urdu are handicapped in sciences and many other subjects. I don`t know anyone who did his engineering and medical education in a local language. do you?


What do people with Masters in urdu and hindi do? Punjabi graduates will do the same. Language graduates usually work in publishing nad government....

also studying Punjabi and giving it a priority does not mean everyone hs to do masters in Punjabi...people shoudl study sciences and medical subject in english(as they do now). You have a weired lens to view things..either everyone is Masters in Punjabi or everyone leaves it all together.

rahul_capri...

Instead of giving me exact references - you want to just say ``look again`` : )

My friend, all I can say is go to the library and get a book of Kabir`s compositions
(or through inter-library loan) and read it yourself. Read multiple interpretations,
and then come to a decision.

The internet is not a substitute for real scholarly effort.