The Tale of Five Rivers

Khattars are jatts? This is a news to me. Sardar Sikandar Hayat and other Hayats of Hasan Abdal are Khattars. It is the same sardar sikandar whom you just despised in your last post for ``oppressing` jatts. Khattars are Pathans originally who settled down in Punjab centuries ago just like Kakezai and popal zai pathans. Like Rohailkhand Pathans of India, they have also lost their mother tongues of Pushto and Dari Farsi to Punjabi and Hindi etc.

If jatts have all the powers as you claim then why are you so mad at me. I do not understand the reason why you have to yell at me either. More power to jatts. The hell I care if they have clout our all Punjab. I, however, seriously doubt that they have it in them to cause a social change even with in themselves, what to talk of Punjab.

Urstruly #71

Khattars ARE Jatts, Sardar Sikandar Khan was a Khattar Jatt. And Sialkot and Southern Punjab are Rajput and not Jatt???? Pull the other one its got bells on..haha.. That`s the thing about you Paki nationalists your brains are so screwed up with nazria e Pakistan bullshit you don`t even know a thing about the land you live in. You are the same people for whom Sultan Mahmud is a great hero...hahaha


Time for a reality check. Outside of Rawalpindi Rajputs are totally irrelvent in Punjab. And no other quaum in Punjab has anything like the land, power, influence, and sheer numbers of Jatts.

What do we want? We want to wash your pan-Islamic crap and your Urdu crap down the drain and to give Punjabiat its rightfull place in Punjab.

Urstruly #71 ``They have political clout on the East bank of Jehlum but not on the west.``


But just one little thing you forgot to mention here, buddy. The ``East bank of Jhelum``, in other words Central Punjab, contains all the richest farmland in Punjab, most of the industry of Punjab and 80% of the population of Punjab. The ``West`` is basically four sparsely populated disticts Pindi, Mianwalli, DG Khan and Attock and even here we have a big prescence in Attock in the Ghebas and the Khattars.

Southern Punjab contains only about 12% of Punjab`s population. And only a minority, basically hard left intellectuals, support the Siraiki movement. But the Jatt brotherhood will keep the Jatts of Southern Punjab at least within the Punjabi fold and as long as they are what do the rest matter?

You would know all these things if you weren`t so busy learning how bandits and thieves like Sultan Mahmud and Ahmed Shah Abdali and terrorist child murderers like Bin Laden are your heroes..hahahahahahaha

BruceLee #63 It was only a question of time before a CREIP would show up on chowk (CREIP = Chowk Registered Expert from India on Pakistan). To you is assigned the category CREIP #420. (Take that, you ***ing Creep-who-thinks-he-is-brucelee. ha! ha!)

dionysus

But what do jats want? You did not elaborate on that. If your contention is that Jatts are the deriving force behind the cause of Punjabi language, then I seriously doubt it. I also doubt the political clout of Jatts as well. They have political clout on the East bank of Jehlum but not on the west. West is Awan, rajput, and Khattar territory. Similarly, areas south of Sahiwal are also Rajput territory. In the North, Sialkot is Rajput territory. Siraiki belt do not want anything to do with Punjabi language. So that exludes well over 10 million people right there. Zia supported AraiN and araiN`s are basically the constituency of his son. Chowdry`s of Gujrat, the jatts are favored by Musharaf and I do not find any word better than ``tailcoat carriers`` to describe them. I do not think they have it in them to cause a positive social change.

Urstruly #67 ``I don`t know any Punjabi who wouldn`t love his mother tongue but the ``compulsion of history``, as Hanif Ramey coined the term, is compelling Punjab to once again being torn apart.``

Bullshit. Who is going to tear Punjab apart? The Jatt landlords are the irresistable power in Punjab. After lying low for 55 years (after being discredited by Malik Khizar Tiwana and Sardar Sikhanar`s bitter opposition to the creation of Pakistan) Jatt Sardars are back in control. If the ``Jatt league`` decides to give Punjabi its righful place in Punjab who can do anything about it? The Kashmiris? The Arains? The Syeds? The Rajputs? I don`t think so.


``Punjabi, in the past supported Urdu language, and loved it more than their own language not because they found it better than their own but because it made economic sense to them.``

Urdu won its place in Punjab through a mixture of fraud and force. The Punjabi nation has no link whatsover to this languange. It has no special place in Punjab`s culture and history and the sooner we get rid of it the better.

Rahul_Capri wrote:
``Kabir has criticised priests mullahs and caste systems,and you can find reference in the link given by pmishra2.Though his major and most beautiful work is as a nirgun bhakt poet of bhakti kaal, he was a heretic and spoke against ritualism in both Hinduism and Islam. What is the link with communism? ``

Rahul

---

can you give me the actual reference verses that Kabir has written to criticize mullah`s or pandits ? I went through the link and could not find anything !

Also - what do you mean he was ``heretic`` ? Even the traditional texts say that there is no need of any rites under all circumstances. Sanyasis do not need any rites.
In addition - what is wrong with rituals ? All our present day lives are full of rituals in one form or another ? All the anti-ritual crap is Commie trash. Check to see if Buddhists
(especially Tibetan) dont have rituals or not.

Again, Look up the meaning of the word heretic at www.m-w.com.
The word heretic is for ``religions`` like Christianity, judaism, islam etc.

People like you use words without understanding their meaning. Go to the original writings of Kabir and find out if he was against pandits or not......Dont believe everything that people tell you. Be a skeptic and check things out.

Ranajee #66


Sameer was asking about any prominent Jatts among the Islamic fanatics. You`ve only linked some stupid squabble between petty factions along caste lines. His point is a very valid one. The Islamic fanatic`s leaders in general tend to firstly belong to Syed, Qureshi and other Islamic tribes and then secondly to Kashmiri, Arain and other such castes who have a lot to gain by Urduisation and Islamization. The Punjabi Jatt`s pride and prestige is inextricably linked to Punjab and Punjabiat, not to pan-Islamiat or even to Pakistaniat. Which is why the Jatt Sardars both past like Malik Khizar Tiwana and present like Chaudhry Shujjat Hussain have little interest in matters outside of Punjab.

I don`t know any Punjabi who wouldn`t love his mother tongue but the ``compulsion of history``, as Hanif Ramey coined the term, is compelling Punjab to once again being torn apart. Punjabi, in the past supported Urdu language, and loved it more than their own language not because they found it better than their own but because it made economic sense to them. Historically, Punjabis had more exposure to urdu than other ethnicities, therefore, adaptation was painless. It was also in the interest of elite ruling class to promote urdu as a national language or the language of Muslims so that masses could take pride in learning it. And pride is what all they got and nothing else whereas elite class taught their children English so that they could rule the urdu medium subalterns. And now for a Punjabi, what makes more economic sense is the English language. With the globalized world, English is going to be the local and international language of communication. Anyone not educated in English has no future in the globalized world. But this is treading and trasspassing territory that ruling class traditionally had control over through their aparthied education system. So as a defense mechanism now they have taken up the cause of local long forgotten languages so that they could keep the masses from treading over the territory which used to be theirs. And Professor Samuel Huntington has predicted this phenomenon that when the clash of civilizations will begin - as it already has - the ruling elites of non western civilizations will adopt and push for their local languages whereas subaltern classes will chose to go for English or French or other Western language. So that means a class conspiracy has already begun by ruling elite to keep the masses under their thumb. But Punjabis should know this very well, and keep this in mind that they and their children have no future unless they learn English. It is English English English - I cannot stress it any more. And same advice goes to other ethnic groups as well.

ralph -- surely even a freak (used because you labelled people asking a valid question along religious lines) such as yourself will know there is a difference between paraphrasing and outright lifting or material word for word -- nothing to do with the disclosure nonsense that youre talking about --

nhk: ``My quest is normally for the ideas/information and not the style. (still want to hang me!) `` -- nazar sahib here your quest seems to have also gone on to the actual words -- im sorry this is plagiarism and what is amazing that the chowk editors do not make any corrections even after it has been detected by some one and pointed out -- the sentences on that link are exact copies -- borrowing ideas is fine nazar sahib but one should at least put them into one`s own words or if one cant do that then at least quote the original author

Dear SameerJB
``Name any Jat name of significant political power in JI, JUI, SSP, JUP, LT, HeM etc?``

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-9-2004_pg3_1

``The killing could be related to the internal Gujjar-Jat split in the Dawa party and the fury over the division of assets between the two. The Gujjar faction is led by the old Lashkar-e-Tayba chief, Hafiz Saeed. The Jat faction called Khairun Naas (KN) is led by Maulana Zafar Iqbal who first got put off by Mr Saeed’s alleged nepotism and appropriation of funds. The KN faction is already supposed to be in control of the old Lashkar headquarters in Muridke and Azad Kashmir.``

ally & sameerjb

I spend some time in the UK and all this talk about the revibal of Punjabi amongst Pakistanis in the diaspora does not make sense to me. It s largly the Indian Punjabi Sikhs who keep Punjabi culture alive in the diaspora. Amongst Pakistanis it is Islam first, second and third, with Punjabi regarded as the languaghe and culture of the Sikhs, looked at detrimentally for that reason.

Dulla Bhatti

Great response to that lunatic! :-)

HP #59 Of course you are right - that was kharri boli. It reminded me a bit about the way a ``panipatya`` woman who did housecleaning at my grandmother`s house used to speak. the language sounds really neat. are those verses from amir khusrho, btw? i think he also wrote in this language (aka hindustani).

#48 by Romair
Raja Sahib,
Kiyon hum mawalion say mazaq karta hain? MQM kehan thi 1960 aur 70 main!

I had already admitted that that was a shaky argument. It is really hard to correlate a language with any religion. Except may be Arabic to Islam.

Now that we are on the topic, let me go in a little more details so you have some idea of what I was referring to. Sindhi language movement emerged after the one unit when Urdu became a medium of instruction in govt schools. Sindhi was still taught in schools but up to the 5th grade and after that books were either in Urdu or in English. It was feared that Sindhi would be eventually phased out as the govt policy was to have Urdu as the only national language. Same fears that Bengalis had in 1948.
Sindhi language was a political and cultural issue rather than a religious issue. When Sindhi language movement emerged it was Jamaat Islami that represented the urban Sindh and was making inroads into the rural Sindh. With Language and provincial rights movement in the 60s and the 70s, JI influence in Sindh was reduced to a bare minimum and since then JI has not made any inroads in rural Sindh.
MQM came on the scene around 1982. It did project itself as an Anti Sindhi party. The MQM of that era consisted of JI sympathizers and former Islami Jamiat students. I think Altaf himself was a JI sympathizer for sometime.

Why an avid read like you, comes up with sketchy info about a province in Pakistan? I think the reason is the strict censorship that was the norm under Ayub, yahya and ZAB for almost two decades. That censorship prevented people of other provinces to even know what was happening in neighboring provinces or sometime in the neighboring towns. Both Sindh and Balochistan went thru monumental turmoils during the Ayub, Yahya and ZAB regimes and most of the people in Punjab and NWFP had no idea what was going on there.

It seems on the surface that Sindh is somehow controlled by the feudal or wadera. That is not the case. Sindh has a vibrant middle class and an advanced language that has been the medium of instruction in the province way before the Moghal came to India. Its literature is rich. From Shah abdul Latif and Sachal Sarmast to many other poets have enriched that language even more. Sheikh Ayaz, I hope you have heard his name was a topnotch Sindhi poet in recent times. He was as big as Faiz was in Urdu poetry. Sheikh Ayaz also wrote in Urdu and some of that work was also considered topnotch.

“SHAIKH AYAZ, who died in Karachi on Sunday, 28th December 1997, was a towering figure of Sindhi literature, known and respected nationally and by Sindhi-speaking people all over the world. He was equally acclaimed in progressive circles for his contribution to the advancement of human values. Shaikh Ayaz revolutionised almost all genres of Sindhi literature and is rightfully called the doyen of the 20th century Sindhi writers and poets.”

Here is some for you!

Na taRa tey Tamachi, na Gandria guzara!
aasara aasara, Keenjgara ja kinara!
AJNan runJNan maan raRi achey thee, achey thee,
Mataan eaeney samjheen, moaa mora saara!
ARey he umaraa! moee nahi Makli,
Ayaz aJu watasee, pathara ja panaara!``

In English
``No Tamachi at the water front, neither is Gandari passing by,
Deserted are! deserted are! the banks of Keenjhar after them.
Still the cry comes from the wilderness,
So do not think, dead are all the peacocks.
Oh! here the sun rises! don`t think Makli is dead,
Ayaz! today, I have taken refuge, in the stone bed.``

I hope you have heard of Noori Jam tamachi. It is as big a folk lore in Sindh as Heer Ranjha is in punjab- Noori Jamtamachi is a love story about a hindu girl and a Muslim Raja.
You also might have heard of Sassi Panhu.

Currently, Sindh has almost ten daily newspaper and numerous other publications both monthly and weekly. The largest Sindhi newspaper Kawish (DailyKawish.com),
outsells any newspaper in Pakistan barring daily Jang Urdu from Karachi. Its printing quality is equal to, or better than some of the main publications in Karachi and Lahore. This newspaper is printed from Hyderabad Sindh. The paper is completely composed on computers using the Arabic script. Sindhi uses Arabic script rather than the Urdu script- a legacy of several Arab invasions on Sindh.

I rarely read any newspaper from Pakistan in English or in Urdu. Kawish is my source of news from Pakistan. The quality of news is impeccable and op-ed writers are honest and have acute knowledge of Pakistani issues and problems. Unlike the trash writers we have in most of the Urdu and English newspapers in Pakistan.
If you can read Urdu, with some effort you can read any Sindhi newspaper as they use fairly easy Sindhi.
You will rarely see any hoarding, neon sign or advertisement in Urdu in rural Sindh. If you wanna sell stuff out there you better advertise it in Sindhi. Sindh now also has a Sindhi cable channel.

So believe me Sindhi is not going to die nor will Sindh as you wrote on your board.
Neither is Balochi going to die. More about that some other time.

Various

All the criticism is well taken. Most of it is valid. Just goes to show how little some of us like me know about our basics. I put it down because I found it interesting. Basically, it is a case of pleading the cause of Punjabi in Pakistan along with other mother tongues and Urdu and English.

This is Khuswant singh`s version of ancient Punjab and evolution of Punjabi language which is universally accepted and considered authentic. Then there is an interesting linkage between the Bhakti and Sufi and commonality of their philosophy. And Punjabi being a language of the saints for pleading the cause of the oppressed masses.

SameerJB - As always, your views on this subject carry all the weight. The title should have been more restrictive and less romatic. The Punjab around the rivers was forest until the British dug the canals.

This was strictly a non-political article. But viewed from a political glass, it seemed to have something to annoy everybody. This was not intended to demean any person, faith, region or ethnicity. But few a things, not necessarily factualy wrong, might have given that inference.

Omar, Malik99 and Echooboom. I respect your views about the line that `Ranjha was lover of Heer`. I did not consider it materially important or that it made much difference to what I wrote. Or that I could not write it in my own different simple style. Anyway, I apologize. My quest is normally for the ideas/information and not the style. (still want to hang me!)

I think the safe topic left to write is `Rainfall in the Hindu Kush mountains`.

Thanks everyone.

NHk

tahmed #50

That was actually Kharhi booli. (clean/Saaf or may be standing! language! literary).
You need to sing it to enjoy it. The Punjabi translation was good.
Now how about this:
I learned this in a village 30Km from Delhi and close to Ghaziabad.

Urray uoo khait main koon barr riya, (Hey! who is going in the farms)
Ghhair liyo raa ghhair liyo- (surround him now!)

…and that was me!