The Tale of Five Rivers

Who are you? I dont want to talk about history of Punjab. There are many different versions. In the middle you start talking about religions. WHY? It’s very sensitive and certainly you do not qualify for that. You dont sound Muslim, of course. Do you know anything about Sufies? what is the definition of Sufi? I bet you don’t know that. things you are talking about sufis (Muslims) true or false, its behavior not belief. And where do you learn about Sufis that they bypass Prophet (PBUH)?
Real sufi doesn’t matter where he lives or lived, they speak different languages though but are same in faith. Writing an article and misguiding reader, how awful.

Ref sanatani #137

[Harimau ji,

Brilliant. I will name my sons Panchapakesh or Panchnadhishwar now pls suggest names for my daughters.]

The consort of Lord Panchanadhishwar at Tiruvayyaru (Pancha Nadha Kshetra) in Tanjore district is named Dharmasamvardhini. This name, shortened to Dharma, should pose no problems for anybody including Americans because of the sitcom ``Dharma and Greg``.

[BTW is it ok if modiy Panchapakesh or Panchnadhishwar to Panjapakesh or Panjnadhishwar]

Do so by all means.

Kindest regards.

Harimau ji,

Brilliant. I will name my sons Panchapakesh or Panchnadhishwar now pls suggest names for my daughters.

BTW is it ok if modiy Panchapakesh or Panchnadhishwar to Panjapakesh or Panjnadhishwar

With Lot of Regards
Sanatani

Sridharji,

What a foolish statement ``educate northies about south/SI/SI culture``?

When northies do not know their own culture what will they know about south?

I shall illustrate this better.

How many northies know the difference between Kathak and Kathakali most of them dont even know Kathak is the only NI classical dance.

Ask Punabis about the langoora or langoor dance and thy would think you are a monkey.

Ever since the Islamists came we have no culture to speak about and yes in some time the only Indian culture will be South Indian culture with a sprinkling of East Oriya/Nangla/Asom/Manipur/Tripura and West Konkani/Marathi/Gujju. thrown in.

You may not know this but there was a koke in pre-independence India to do something in Delhi you had run from Pillai to Pillai and the only one ones not appreciating this were the Nambiars, Nair, Naidus and Iyers

Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 134
Great narrative.
I always heard that Punjabi was used as long as 4th century AD. There are some writings found in Thasar that dont differ too much from modern Punjabi and the alphabet used was Devnagri, which is the foundation of GuruMukhi script.

Nazar:
The generations born after partition certainly are more removed from Punjabi as it was, and they probably are semi-lingual in West Punjab, thinking in Punjabi and writing in urdu/ english.
But ``..generations born after the partition can neither read nor write in Punjabi, their mother tongue`` is incorrect. Before partition, Punjabi was written in 2 scripts- gurmukhi and Urdu ( and possibly a third? devnagiri or persian if I`m not wholly wrong about the third; with urdu predominating as the language that was taught, and gurmukhi restricted to the granth sahib and a few practitioners of gurmukhi). After partition, the Indian side completely removed all traces of Urdu and punjabi was written only in Gurmukhi and on the pakistani side, they used urdu to write it. So `not being able to read or write in punjabi` is strange and wrong, as punjabi was written in 2 different scripts and there was no such thing as a single `punjabi script` to use or discontnue anymore. It is of course terribly sad that because of this, Indians can`t read Urdu at all, especially the large North India belt where it was so common, and now we have to read our urdu poets in (bad) translations or in scripts like english/devnagri.

And how come no mention of the Punjabi revolutionary poet `Paash`, in the list of Punjabi poets? It`d be really nice if you can find some of his poetry and update this piece with it.
Regards

# 131

Panj is persian for five. Pancha is Sanskrit for five.

A well written dirge of Punjabi language and culture. We should not forget that the land of five rivers which produced the humanists like the great Bulle Shah also gave birth to Illam Din, representing a cult which ultimately lead to the `Law of Blasphemy`, a sword in the hands of the bloody mullah hanging on every head. So the LOB and the `Enlightened Moderation` go hand in hand as the rivers of love are drying up.

And today we cry up again in the words of Amrita Pritam ``mein aakhan Waris Shah noon toon qabran wichon bol te aj kitabe ishq da koi agla warqa phol``.

Ref rsridhar #53

[``The word ``Punjab`` can be broken into ``Panch`` + ``Aab``. ``Panch`` means five in Sanskrit, ``Aab`` means water in ``Persian``, so it seems to be confluence of two cultures. ``
The word ``ab`` may have been derived from the sanskrit word ``abdhi`` which means ``sea or ocean``. So huge was the confluence of Indus and the 5 rivers that the early settlers deemed it a sea or an ocean.]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! ``Panch`` is Persian for ``Five`` and ``ab`` for ``water`` so ``Punjab`` is all Persian.

On the other hand, ``ap`` is water in Sanskrit. So, an all-Sanskrit pronunciation would have been Panchap.

One has to come to the REAL Land of the Five Rivers to get the correct pronunciation. I am of course referring to the delta of the Cauvery river where the Cauvery splits into five major rivers before joining the sea. Here you will find children (and grown men) named Panchapakesan (God of the Five Waters).

Of course, some of these Panchapakesans when they settle in Delhi and other similar God-forsaken places discover a sudden affinity for the OTHER Punjabis and start naming their children Rohit, Rohan, Kiran, etc. I am yet to see reciprocity from the Tanejas and Salujas for I haven`t heard of one single Panchapakesh or Panchnadhishwar among their children.

Thanks Urstruly for a wonderful and detailed reply (#123). I understand well that first hand experience shapes the thinking. Since different peoples experience differently, we have difference of opinion. As the time passes, human mind fine tunes, sharpens and sometime reverses the thinking for various factor, one of which is taking out emotionalism. In my case, for example, growing up in working class family and witnessing frustratingly the exploits of upper classes (elites) in a highly classed society should have directed me to avoid interacton with most people at this site who belong to upper middle to rich class. But I grew out of it. Now I have no problem interacting with KGS and Kinnaird background people although during my formative years, the total monthly income of my family was less than one month tution of one kid in one of these schools. On the other hand my first hand experience with Punjabi are mostly cultural and they are made in USA. It has always been either helpful or beneficial to me at gas stations, groceary stores, music stores and interacting with people coming from different religious and political backgrounds. Even at this site, I believe that I am more respected by Punjabis than others.

I have very clear and consistent record of opposing military in Pakistani political affairs from day one. That was the reason I joined chowk after reading about an article written by Musharraf`s son. Everybody who supports Musharraf and military rule using various kind of dumb logic is wrong in my opinion. I read the detailed proceedings of Punjab Assembly`s passage of the uniform resolution at hipakistan site you mentioned and came out perhaps more disgusted than you. At the same time, I have always maintained that Punjabis are first and foremost responsible for the conditions Punjabi language is in. I feel that the so-called Punjabi representatives in the Punjab Assembly behaved in the same despicable manner as they have been behaving towards mother language and culture. You, on the other hand, feel (correct me if I am wrong) that the so-called Punjabi leadership made the right decisions by degrading Punjabi language and culture and now making wrong decisions by supporting na-pak fauj and its grip on Pakistan. Considering this, I actually come out sicker of Punjabi leadership than you. I believe that only one good decision of Punjabi Muslims leadership in the last 150 years (since accepting Urdu language) was actually stand taken by Unionist party. As you can see that all these idiot steps by Punjabi leadership can not change my love for Punjabi language which has suffered as bad as Punjabis at the hands of so-called Punjabi leadership through history.

128#tahmed32

tahmed Norman invasion of England was in 1066, because of this French was the official language for 250 years, that’s reason we have 25% of English words are French in origin, mostly in government and law.

In Ireland Irish is first official language hardly anyone bothers to learn it, situation is similar in Scotland even though it’s separate country with it’s own language hardly anyone can speak it.

an interesting parallel of the panjabi vs. urdu/farsi language issue is to be found in europe that i recall reading about someplace: in 1088, the norman invasion led to a french-speaking nobility in england, with english-speaking peasants. So, when french words were used to describe something it tended to be considered more refined than english words for the same thing. Thus, words like beef and pork (french origin) gradually replaced perfectly fine anglo-saxon words that existed at the time as the english peasantry started mimicking their french sahibs.

Thusin india we had old panjabi/khari boli etc. words being replaced by farsi/turki words as they sought to communicate with their farsi/turki speaking sahibs (giving rise to urdu), with the british raj providing another round of replacement to change 19th century urdu to modern urdu. In this sense, urdu is indeed as much a language of the panjabis as modern english (as opposed to the pre-norman english) is the language of the english!!

PS: as an aside, even the rise of mullahism in pakistan is being reflected in the language of the Bakistanis - as dionysus jokingly referred to the arab-worshipping mullahs - with perfectly good urdu words being replaced by arab words (e.g. namaz being replaced by salaat, ramzan by ramadan. however, this trend is too limited (mostly to religious words, and by those who come most in contact with arabs in mosques etc.) to be of any significance.

dionysus: i agree that panjabis have traditionally had an inferiority complex with respect to their culture. and, as with all inferiority complexes, the reason was pretty obvious: panjabis were traditionally a rustic people, whereas farsi was the language of the court. while the panjabis did have their day as rulers (as modern day names of indian states like gujerat attest; and as that most underrated of ancient battles - the Battle of Multan where panjabis finally turned the tide on Alexander the Great and stuck an arrow in his behind or someplace for good measure as well after he had beaten the then mighty persian empire and also the lands of egypt and central asia) ), they became a conquered people for several centuries at the hands of the turk and other invaders. Like all conquered people, they lost pride in themselves.

Perhaps the most interesting phenomenon wrt panjabi culture that is taking place today in that most unlikely of places: UK and the US. This is not just with the expat panjabi community, but with western people as well - popularized not only by movies like Monsoon Wedding (sold as part of mainstream movies in video stores) but also by panjabi folk songs (now on CDs played by US teenagers, most often as an intermix with english e.g.) and the bhangra which has also gained popularity in the west.

So, Panjab is rising again - not as a martial race or victors or any such rubbish, but as a source of cultural richness that is being appreciated not just in the subcontinent (in Dhaka, the shalwar kameez was considered high fashion by their women a few years ago when i used to go there - and the dress is known to them as simply ``panjabi``) but around the world.

I tend to agree with urstruly (normally i dont, but once in a while he gets it right - like the broken watch that is correct two times a day) that the panjab assembly has disgraced itself by not standing up for democracy. One day the panjabis will get fed up with all this hypocrisy and may even take to the streets - as they did when they finally got fed up of Ayub Khan`s self-promotion with his ``Decade of Development`` and kicked him out of office in disgrace.

re: Kushwant Singh`s interview narrated in post #109 by warpster
Even though this may annoy some Punjabees, i do not think KS is as great a writer as some other Indians have been (R.K. Narayan comes to mind easily). KS is just famous, that is all.
Now, what is our Sardarji talking in the following passages taken from that post:

``What about Punjabi music? Cinema and songs are incomplete these days without a Punjabi
touch.

Our religion is entirely music based. We have 31 ragas....``.
So, Sardarji is saying that Punjabi music has 31 ragas! That would be news. And, what does he mean by ``Our religion`` ? Is he talking about a special Punjabi religion that i am not aware of? As i said once before, this is one senile sikh.
I do not know why KS is given so much importance at his age! The guy has done nothing much to deserve this kind of attention.
Sridhar

re:#108 by dionysus
``Veeresh, why does every Sikh yatree from India I meet in Lahore hate India with a passion? Does the Sikh hatred for India worry you at all,...``
The Pakis i have met in USA have all felt bad about the state of affairs in their native country. This cuts across region. If u met some sikhs in Pakistan that do not have a good opinion about India, u must remember that such an opinion is not shared by every sikh. After all, one such person is the PM today and thousands of sikhs join the Indian Army every year. Another prominent sikh (Montek Singh Ahluwalia) left a cushy job to join the Planning Commission.
Anyway, most of u guys are stuck in a groove and find it difficult to come out of it. I am reminded of an incident when i was watching an Indian News Channel with my Paki friend in New York many years ago (Pak did not have any channel of its own, so every Paki was forced to view this channel in New York and suburbs). Newsreader was a Sikh woman (her name ends in Simran; can`t recall her full name). My friend turned to me and said that Indian govt was just keeping the sikhs happy by giving them cushy jobs like the one given to the newsreader!
That pretty much sums up the Paki mentality. There is a general feeling (perhaps fostered by your media and books) that sikhs in India are an unwilling part of the diaspora. Nothing can be farther from the truth. I think u must worry about your own country`s future, which is not very bright at the moment.
Sridhar

re: #114 by dionysus
Forgot to narrate another incident that happened in and around 1996 i think. My Paki Mohajir friend and i were completing our Residency from a New York hospital. Pakistan Day was fast approaching. My friend bemoaned the fact that there was so much disunity among the Pakis that there was going to be 2 different venues for celebrating the same event! ``Yeh Sudharney wali kom nahin hai`` was how he put it. He also had a lot of unprintable urdu words to describe Pakistan. I had to pacify him. We went to watch a hindi movie later on.
Something is bothering u my friend. U need to take a break.
Sridhar

dionysus

If the following doesn`t prove the moral and political bankruptcy of Punjab then what does:

http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en71739&F_catID=&f_type=source

The facts also render Sameer`s empirical evidence of punjab`s uprightness, invalid.

Why was my response to Veeresh not been posted? It contain no profanity or any kind of racist comment. Why?



And oh btw, urstruly #121 It is patently obvious that you have lost your marbles - every fricken single one of them. Poor brainwashed miskeen bakistani.

Sameer # 113

I agree with most of your post except on some issues on which our disagreement may be due to different experiences we went through in life and thus influenced our perceptions.

One such issue is your contention of ``poor political judgment`` of Punjabis. I was of that opinion once. I used to believe that Punjab did not do what needed to be done to save our federation with East Pakistan because Punjabis were kept in dark due to a strictly controlled media. Later I lived through the civil war in urban Sindh that almost lasted eight years. Living in Karachi, which was once a true cosmopolitan city and rightfully a ``mini-Pakistan`` I had had great opportunity of interacting with almost every ethnicity that exists in Pakistan- an opportunity that a common Punjabi living in Punjab never experiences. And being very active in student politics this interaction went above and beyond the normal and went down to the hideous detail of power politics. The devil is in details. After seeing the carnage for years and being a first hand witness of the untold misery that man is capable of inflicting onto his fellow human being, I was still convinced that a Punjabi has the poor judgment because of controlled media. When I used to go back to Punjab, although there were sanitized version of news in newspaper, even the politically active friends of mine used to inquire casually ``bhaiyas making trouble eh?`` and when used to tell them some of the details they found it incredible to believe. At that time when I told them that army was 95% responsible for this political mess they wouldn`t believe it. In their opinion the only solution to subdue urban Sindh was more interference of army into the political mess. I had a very good Sindhi friend from upper Sindh who belonged to Jiyay Sindh, and used to regularly invite me and other friends to his goth where we stayed sometime for week or more during vacations. There not only did I get a chance to share glasses of home-made thaadal (w/pot sometimes) but also got a chance to exchange political views with down to earth Sindhis – peasants, lawyers, school teachers, mirasis, maalshi etc. etc. The over all feeling was that of total disenfranchisement. They used to scoff at my arguments that investment by military establishment like that in Panu Aqil cantonment and Cadet college Pitaro, or upgrading of highways ( which was basically being done to logistically support jihad in Afghanistan), and trade free zones like that in Nooriabad will change their life for good. Their unanimous discourse was still that of disenfranchisement whereas in Punjab I found no such sentiment. As a matter of fact investors were running away from murderous racketeering of MQM and moving their business en mass to North Punjab. It was boom time for Punjab. There was absolutely no feeling of political oppression in Punjab except in southern siraiki belt, which is neither agricultural nor industrial and is not a recruiting base for military. My views on Punjab`s ``poor political judgment`` changed when Zia died and some sort of democracy came and restrictions on media were lifted. This time Benazir used the blunt power of state apparatus to crush MQM. A spate of extra-judicial murders were carried out and constitutional rights of Pakistani citizens were trampled upon like a Gestapo state. Just imagine what would happen if police raids every other house in Rawalpindi and Lahore, without warrant, women are beaten, and young men arrested and taken to undisclosed locations where they were tortured and sometimes murdered in cold blood. But that was happening. Media was reporting. And Punjab was silent. The common sentiment in Punjab was that these bhaiyas must be dealt with force. That was no poor judgment – that was complacency. Punjab is again complacent when military is using the same blunt force on citizens of Pakistan again, same arguments that it is being done to bring law and order and prosperity in to those provinces are being repeated again. Everybody knows very well that instead it is only being done to please American masters and to establish American military bases in the region and to provide a corridor to them to central Asia. It might be good for Pakistan, but do we necessarily have to murder our own citizens to do that? Why Punjab is not asking this question now when almost everyone has CNN, geo, BBC, PTV, STN, and ZTV at their homes. This is not bad judgment – this is complacency - the complacency that will sure destroy this federation once again.

Military is again using ethnic chauvinists to divide the federation and conquer us all. Where do these Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, and Urdu chauvinists disappear whenever even the poorest form of democracy returns to Pakistan and why do they appear like locust whenever military rules Pakistan. Today Punjabi chauvinists are using the argument that if Punjab is not going to support military the fundamentalists will take over, thus causing the further disenfranchisement of whole Pakistan. And what has Punjabi chauvinism given to Punjabis anyway. Just go to any Punjabi discussion forum and all it does is to emphasize on the tribal affiliations of Punjabis to their clans – the rancid and hideous words like Jatts are lower than Arians, Arains are coward and Gujars are brave people and Maliks are taili and Rajputs are smelly. What the fukk is this. You are dividing human beings on the basis of their very basic prejudices –the prejudices that no one has control over – the prejudices that are a result of accident of birth. Just roll down this very thread and see the evidence with your own eyes. A Punjabi who is so chauvinist, who so prejudiced, who is not willing to tolerate his fellow Punjabi, what would he think of a fellow Sindhi or a disenfranchised Baluchi or Pathan whose women and children are being burnt alive by military as we speak. This is the gift of Punjabi chauvinism to Punjabis. They deserve that.

Punjab is also being terrorized and feared by Punjabi chauvinists into thinking that somehow its own self preservation is at risk. The hateful propaganda that bhayays are taking over Punjab and they are destroying Punjabi language by imposing their own is being fed systematically into Punjabi mind by military establishment and their cohorts of Punjabi chauvinists. Please explain to me when never in history Punjabi was taught in schools, never it was a part of official vernacular (even during sikh times), never it was a language of business, trade, politics, and military then how has it survived over the centuries. Since Akbar`s time, the official language of Punjab has been Farsi, and before that I am not sure we even had our own script to write Punjabi and yet Punjabi has survived. That is almost six centuries now. British replaced local official vernacular with urdu, and that is two centuries now; and yet Punjabi survives. The elite and salariat in those times used to speak farsi and urdu then and now they speak urdu and English and yet Punjabi has survived. No Punjabi chauvinist can answer these contentions even when he sees them with his own eyes because his eyes are covered with prejudices and chauvinism. I humbly appeal to you all not to divide human beings further on the basis of their prejudices of accident of birth. Make them proud by making them appreciative of their vibrant heritage and not fearing them into being passive-aggressive with their prejudices. Expose the hateful game that colonial British and their post-colonial heirs i.e. military and the progeny of Iyad Alawis are playing with us.

sameer #113 ``People here take pride or criticize Pakistan as revival of Afghan-Turkish dynasties. That is just not true. Pakistani rulers are not as ruthless as them and a minority of Afghan-Turks dont hold sway over all the matters of importance.``

Sameer another great post and your point about Hindi-Urdu and the eventual long term Indianization of Pakistan is an excellent one, but I just want to clarify something here. I`m not say the descendents of the Turko-Persians rule over us now. That obviously isn`t true. What I said was that Pakistan was founded by them for their own reasons. (If Pakistan was founded for Islam and Muslims why did it leave tens of millions of the poorest and weakest Muslims in India???) And they did rule the place in the first few years of Pakistan`s existence. When I said Punjabis were still slaves I didn`t mean literally. With a few exceptions, like the great Abdullah Bhatti, until the time of Guru Gobind Singh the Turko-Persian rulers could awe and intimidate Punjabis without even the need for armies. Punjabis suffered from a huge inferority complex with regards to the Turko-Persians, and the Pakistan state has made sure that they still do long after the Turko-Persians have become irrelavent.

Dionysus/114 -well that`s where you err, in addition to the Listerine.

We Indians have never considered Pakistan to be an enemy country, far from it. We consider you to be part of us, Atut Ung and all that, remember?

We are stuck with you like, say, Bihar is.

mitran #115 I dont see how you can, by any stretch, that piece I wrote can be considered to be racist against the Dravidians. After all, as I note in the post, ALL mankind (not just Dravidians, but blonde Nordic models, cute Thai waitresses, pudgy Eskimo philosophers, tiny Hottentott scholars...the list goes on) started from Africa. I think, sir, that you are being too touchy on this subject of race. I invite you to embrace Islam and free yourself from such feelings of inequality).

(That last sentence is written in order to annoy any fervent hindu who may be reading this post, and to cause and fervent mullah to wet his pants in delight...personally, I dont care if you are hindu or muslim, and may God bless you and go in peace, dear sir jee.)

Mitran sahab
if you forgive my interjection. The continents were joined long before homo spaiens had evolved.

mitran #115 On your other point, mitran sahib, you are definitely wrong. I have been on chowk for 3-4 years, and have drawn my conclusions based on what I have myself observed - there are just two Pakistanis I can think of who were ridiculing indians when they first came to chowk; however, there are dozens of indians who have come and gone from chowk and all i have ever seen them write is attempts to ridicule pakistan while glorifying india to the point of absurdity. Instead of trying to whitewash the facts, I suggest next time you see a creep (as previously defined) write on chowk, you take him to task yourself as a fellow Indian. That way you will be able to demonstrate that you are a man of principle, and we can all have more intelligent and interesting discussions on chowk.

Janab tahmed321 jee

I would like to know on what basis you arrived at the assumption that Dravidian immigrants to the subcontinent came via Makran. Is it because you see more African influence in Makran today and you put 2 & 2 together and came up with that idea. Is it not possible that since the continents were connected eraly man could have walked into the subcontinent via Maharashtra or Gujarat.

You also seem to show the same attitude that you are criticizing. `` the kind who visit chowk only as an opportunity to ridicule pakistanis from the safety of the internet `` - does it mean to say that you would have used appropriate means to deal with them one on one? The internet has made it possible for people to exchange ideas without having to rely upon history professors to come up with their versions of history. That is democratic . In any case the exchange is not always one sided because I have personally read equally opinionated versions from the your countrymen on this forum.

#104 Urstruly:

plenty of Americans and majority of British opposed US invasion of Iraq through democratic and lawful means. Should they be lower the pride (or acceptance the fact) to be American or British and more importantly, with respect to discussion here, should they detest English language becasue largest and mightiest English speaking nation invaded a smaller country against all norms of international laws?

You are linking socio-cultural identity with poor political judgement of a people by stating that you are ashamed of being a Punjabi because of the actions of mostly Punjabi na-pak fauj. First of all the priorities of na-pak fauj are self-preservation, Pakistan, Islam and then anything else like Punjabi. Whatever they did in Bangladesh was according to the above order of priorities. If you could conclusively prove that ruthlessness per Punjabi soldier in Bangladesh was greater than a Pashtun or a mohajir Pakistani, you would have a strong point about some inherent tendency of Punjabis to be idiots.

During the last elections in Pakistan, despite large scale manipulations and rigging, the total vote against ``mostly Punjabi na-pak fauj rule`` was only larger in Punjab. Since I consider MMA a ``B`` team of military given extensive history and proof of military-mullah nexus, the total vote of opposition to military (mostly PPPP and PML(N)) was larger in Punjab than QML. The total opposition vote in Sindh (PPPP + PML against MQM + MMA + QML), in NWFP (PPPP + PML against MMA and QML) and in Balochistan (PPPP + BNP against MMA + QML) was actually smaller than pro-military parties. How can you complain about Punjabis and not the rest of Pakistanis with regard to na-pak fauj support politically?

The question of ashamed of arises if one is proud of to begin with. I might have been guilty of supporting Punjab as pride but actually and honestly speaking it is acceptance of the fact of cards nature has dealt me. There is absolutely no sense of presenting pride and superiority of any ethnic group within sub-contienent. But by same token there is absolutely no reason to suppress one`s identity in any name. Punjabis often speak up when told to let go of their language in favor of another equally economically useless language. It was/ and still is a matter of defending the cards nature has dealt you against a hand with no better hand in anyway whatsoever. Why should I pass my hand with 13 points against a hand with 13 or less points? How am I suppose to respond, if I had the opportunity, to Baba-e-Urdu Maulana Abdul Haque comments in Dhaka that all languages of Pakistan are of Kafir origins except Urdu. That is true but so is Arabic and so are all of us (Kafirs), give or take few hundred years.

There is reverse reaction to every action which runs parallel with survival of the fittest. First of all I agree that in survival of the fittest race, English has no comparison. However, applying third law of Newton to the imposition of Urdu, the reverse reaction is native languages revolt. Harder they impose Urdu, stronger the revolt would be.

The conditions which gave advantage to Urdu in Punjab among Muslims during early part of last century do not exist now. The three-way religion-based group interests of Punjabis during 1910-1930 evaporated in 1947 with the migration of two competing groups. The ground realities are different now and they do not support keeping hung up with Urdu unless religion-based statements like the one by Maulana Abdul Haque are taken most importantly.

Urduization of Punjab in the name of Pakistan and Islam has worked just the opposite it was aimed at. It is single-handedly responsible for the hegemony of Hindi culture in the form of movies and music all over Pakistani Punjab. Almost all Punjabis are hooked now to watching Hindi movies videos and DVDs, thank to preferential treatment in speaking to Urdu. I dont like TNT but I dont buy that TNT meant two nations, one culture. North Indian Ganges plain culture can not be dumped on Punjabis in the name of Pakistan or Islam.

People here take pride or criticize Pakistan as revival of Afghan-Turkish dynasties. That is just not true. Pakistani rulers are not as ruthless as them and a minority of Afghan-Turks dont hold sway over all the matters of importance. Thanks to opening the floodgates of Hindi culture by promoting Urdu, Pakistan is really a revival of Gupta dynasty sans Hindusim in every respect. Gupta dynasty relied on the native underlings using Brahmins and religion to win their loyalties and presenting Ganges plains culture as pure Hindu culture. Just replace Brahmins with mullahs and we have the revival of Gupta dynasty period with militay + mullah + Urdu.

Veeresh #110

Veeresh you gotta give the Listerine to your Sikh compatriots who come over here. ``Hindustan dee maaN dee phudhee`` sounds very musical in a Malwee accent, but it just isn`t on saying that kind of thing in an enemy country.

Stuka

Even the Bhutto apologists, like the author Saleem Ahmad (who authored the book ``Generlas aur Politicians - Hamood-ur-Rehman commission report`` in 1980s and included excerpts from not only the commission report then but also the copies of US Departement of State documets, that have only now been released, which prove an American hand in East Pakistan debacle) have admitted that Yahya wanted a life time presidency for himself and wanted Bhutto and Mujib to find a mutually agreeable solution to themselves. Bhutto proposed a two Prime Ministers solution by saying idhar tum udhar hum but that was unacceptable to Mujib. Mujib, as a matter of fact, was under no compulsion to take any shit from faujis and West Pakistani politicians. He was on a moral high ground; and he had a very dedicated and uncompromising constituency and parliamentary majority. Personally, I think he would have been the best thing that could have ever happened to United Pakistan. he would have not only put army behind the baracks forever but also would have abolished feudal holdings in WP because of his socialist leanings. It was totally unacceptable to feudal lords and their armed wing the pak army. so they would rather sacrifice half of the country than sharing power with bengalis.

Urstruly:

But the history I have read said that Yahya was willing to devolve power but Bhutto was against it. He came out with Idhar Hum Udhar Tum etc. Can you clarify?

Urstruly/106, boss, all I can say is that your Kashmiri and other brothers and sisters are mine, too. Now whether our mutual brothers and sisters are getting it in the neck in Wana, Baluchistan, Kashmir, East Bengal/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Gujarat or wherever else, don`t you think we need to let nature take it`s course.

Dionysus/108, I don`t know why they pick on you in Lahore, must be something wrong with you. Try Listerine?

Heres an excerpt from a KS interview (from www. tehelka.com) which was part of a series on Punjab

THE QUINTESSENTIAL PUNJABI

Khushwant Singh is a punjabi icon. the ninety-year-old wit shares his thoughts on Punjabiyat with Harinder Baweja

How would you describe a Punjabi?

Well, any Hindu, Sikh or Muslim from Punjab would classify as a Punjabi but being a Punjabi comes from the spirit of ‘never say die’ (chardian kalan). The Punjabi has this unique trait, this immense belief that anything you do, I can do better. Look at their vocabulary.



If you were not a Punjabi, what would you have liked to be?

Not an Indian. I’d like to have been an Englishman. I admire them because they are straightforward and they don’t boast.



If you were to pick one good trait of the Punjabis, what would it be?

The Punjabis have been through so much adversity; they have learnt the art of surviving by fighting. Kirt karo, the Sikh faith teaches you and they have learnt to inculcate this as part of their work ethos. They believe in working hard and fighting for it and taking pride in what they do. Even after Partition, when they were reduced to poverty, they fought their way up. You would never see a Sikh stretch his arms out. You’ll never see them begging.


What typifies Punjabiyat in you, personally?

Frankly, I’ve never been conscious of being one but I have a great sense of belonging despite being an agnostic. If the Punjabi suffers, I feel deep suffering and when they are happy, I rejoice. I was very happy when Manmohan Singh became the prime minister. Part of the dream of ‘raj karega Khalsa’ (the Sikh will rule) came true, even if it was through a ballpoint pen and not a kirpan.



The community sees you as an icon of sorts. Is that a burden?

Icon? That’s bullshit. If I am, that makes me happy but frankly, my modesty won’t allow me to get flattered.



Modesty? That’s not a Punjabi trait?

(laughs) Well, that’s my bad trait then. Talking of bad traits, the Punjabis are rather loud and aggressive. We are also very vulgar. And great show-offs. At the drop of a hat, we take out processions and then even take out our kirpans. Our weddings are the most vulgar weddings. It is a common saying, put two Punjabis together and you have a singh sabha (Sikh congregation), put three of them together and you have rola rappa (noise).



What has the Punjabi contributed to the rest of India?

The Green Revolution, undoubtedly, which was started entirely by Punjab. It is still India’s bread basket. Take the case of Ganga Nagar and Tarai. One was a barren desert and the other a dense forest. Today, both are top agricultural areas and the credit goes to the Punjabi. I also think we have a delightful vocabulary which has crossed the confines of Punjab and Delhi. One Sikh is often described as ‘sava lakh’ (one plus a quarter) and fauj (an army). Then, there are other words. Chillies are called ‘ladaki mais’ (a woman who fights) and when we want to shit and piss, we say, cheetah bhagaan jaane hai and Chittorgarh ka kila fateh karna hai…


Do you find the Punjabi very boastful?

No, that’s an Indian trait. The Punjabi is as hypocritical as a Madrasi or a Bengali.



Unlike other communities, the Punjabis can laugh at themselves, right?

That quality is much on the decline. Sikhs and Parsis were two communities who could laugh at themselves but Sikhs are becoming very touchy. I was served a notice recently by the sgpc asking me not to narrate too many jokes about Sikhs in my columns.



So, have you stopped doing that?

(laughs) I just reproduced the letter in the introduction of the seventh edition of my joke books.



What about Punjabi music? Cinema and songs are incomplete these days without a Punjabi
touch.

Our religion is entirely music based. We have 31 ragas which no other religion has and I’m glad we’ve preserved our kirtan. As for the Daler Mehendis and the Gurdas Manns, I can hardly say I admire them. You hear them once and you’ve heard them forever. Our gurbani and kirtan is pure and unadulterated.


How do you think other communities, down South, perhaps, think of the Punjabi?

With a certain amount of envy and appreciation. Under two percent of India’s population and we are at the helm of affairs in every sphere. Long live the Punjabi.

September 18, 2004

Veeresh, why does every Sikh yatree from India I meet in Lahore hate India with a passion? Does the Sikh hatred for India worry you at all, or will you inflict another round of mass murder and oppression on them to keep them in line?

HP:

Oh acha, I was talking about the guy sent to jail by Musharaf for speaking against Army. He is Punjabi from PML (N). Javed Hashmi I think his name is, but I could be wrong.

veeresh

Your post is an evidence that democracy is the method through which a nation saves itself from comitting the same mistakes over and over again. And here we are, where we were 33 years ago.

I have no problem with an open border with India unless the 57 year old issue of just and fair partition is resolved first. I am sorry, but I cannot have a mujra on the corpses of my dead kashmiri brothers and sisters. You have no qualms about the ruthless murder of your own people whom you call your atut ang? that surprises me a lot and makes me wonder whether we should have relationship with such people who have such dualty in their character or not. Would it benefit us or harm us. No one puts his money into the confusion - I wouldn`t.

Urstruly/104, very emphatic and comprehensive response, one that sets the grey cells whirring.

Indian Punjab is, today, a fairly eclectic mix of people from all over the country. Be it diaspora to and from all over the world, educated urban and skilled labour from all over the country in the towns and cities or semi-skilled and unskilled labour in the fields from Bihar, I think Punjab in India is today kind of ``cosmopolitan``. I just happen to drive around in Haryana and Punjab a fair bit, and whether it was in the ``bad days`` of the Khalistan movement or the current boomtown aura, I do not think your ``conspiracy of silence`` argument can apply to Indian Punjab anymore.

There is far too much exposure and option to better times through opportunity in North India now. Anybody from anywhere in the World trying to force any conspiracy down will have another one coming.

What I do think, however, is that the immense and visible difference in prosperity levels between Indian and Pakistani Punjab shall soon cause some equalisation. The opening up of tourism in Pakistan for middle-class Indians will bring hordes of curious and affluent Punjabis with deep pockets, different from the existing crop of typical ultra-rich feudals and ultra-poor peasants visiting relatives.

If you ask me, the increasing Sikh influence in areas around Lahore and Pindi co-terminus with the relentless putsch against the Mullahs is something that speaks for itself to those willing to listen. Money talks, and for 5 decades now Pakistani Punjab has followed the tunes of the Piper from Al-Arabistan, and look what it has got them?

Open discussion on such a subject will bring forth the usual whines from those who would keep their own country in the dark.

I know one thing:- in the `80s, Pakistan Punjab was way ahead of Indian Punjab. Twenty five years later, roles are reversed tremendously.

If Punjab as a whole is to pull itself up, then IMHO two things can happen:- the worse off can pull the better off down, or vice versa.

But to this, add a rider - the better off Punjab, in India, is already demographically and democratically different. I don;t see it letting itself be pulled under again.

And now, bring on the whiners.

Stuka # 85

There is no snake oil here; I am only trying to sell a time machine that enables us to travel back in time. Thirty three years ago, like Mushsraf, Yehya Khan also had an LFO. According to this LFO he held elections where Shiekh Mujib won by a majority vote. By the rules of his own LFO, Yehya should have handed over government to majority leader and retire army to the baracks; but no. Like today he also wanted a constitutional role of army and for himself in the polity and for that he wanted one Jamali. Whereas, Bhutto had no qualms about playing jamali to him, because that was his only conduit to power, Mujib could not because he was answerable to his constituency , which elected him on only one premis that he will send army back to the baracks. These elections were held in Dec 1970 and Yehya would not call the session of National Assembly until March of 1971 when Awami League decided that they had had enough of his shinanigans. Where was Punjab at that time. It was silently conspiring to keep its man - yehya - into the power. So we paid a heavy price for this conspiracy of silence, lost half of the country, and had 90,000 POWs in enemy custody. Punjab remained silent.

And you say that Pak army fought for its country in 1971. No it is a lie. They fought to protect their criminal organization. Discipline is the only key to the survival of any army and what we had were hordes of genocidal maniacs and rapists on lose who were wearing uniform of Pak army. Any army lowers itself to this level when its top leadership is corrupt and have no professionalism and fighting an illegal war. A soldier lowers himself to the level of an animal only when his leadership is unprofessional and criminal minded. What discipline you can expect from an army when the command of that army has no respect for the law and constitution of the country. When leadership is corrupt and morally bankrupt then Abu Gariab happens - when leadership has no moral and legal backbone then genocide of Kashmiris happen - murder and rape of Bengali Muslims and Pakistanis happen. Keep in mind that bengalis took their case of crimes against humanity in the International Tribunal on War crimes in the Hague and retracted their case only when these faujis agreed to give away half of our country in a platter to the enemy to save their own asses.

Now we have the same army with same LFOs and a bunch of chracterless politicians as their underlings. Now it is the same army who have their guns shooting at citizens of Paksitan with total disregard for human life and dignity. Baluch were opposing the establishment of American bases on Baluch soil in 60s and they are opposing the same now (could that be that Baluch instead of being anti-Pakistan are only nationalsits?). And Punjab is silent. Today when Pakistani citizens are fighting their last battle to restore a political leadership to run the polity like any other civilized country in the world, Punjab is silent and standing on the side. This is the last battle. If citizens lose now then we have decades of military oppression written as our destiny. I refuse to accept that Punjabis are so complaisant and slavishly submissive by nature, to oppressors because of some invasions that happened 300 years ago - NO. This misleading propaganda must stop now. Instead it is Punjab`s conspiracy of silence that it sides with oppressors always. Punjab has to develop a backbone if they wish Pakistan to survive as we see it today. How many pieces of country will Punjab give away to survive and keep itself prosper. There aren`t too many left.

The Tamil thread:
Ponniyinselvan #44:
As someone who can speak, read and write in both Tamil and Hindi, I agree with your comments. I have met educated, highly qualified North Indians (not just Hindi speaking, but Gujarathi, Marathi, Punjabi etc) who cannot comprehend that one may not know Hindi and can still be a true Indian. Ignorance of other languages in their own country leads them to impose Hindi on everyone, as a sign of patriotism. Speak Hindi to be Indian is closely related to be Hindu to be Indian and is a sign of the insularity of the Hindi chauvunist. I hate it when people say `South` or `Madrasi` rather than Tamil or Kannada or whatever. I think the many insurgencies in North East are partly due to the overbearing attitude of the Northies!
However, I have met insular Tamilians too. For them, anyone not from South India is a Northie (vadanaattukkaaran) / Hindiwala, without differentiating the Bengali, Gujarathi, Punjabi, Kashmiri etc.
I think Tamilians have done a good thing by being assertive and proud of their language. This is in contrast to Kannadigas and Telugu speakers. However, the biggest threat to languages in India is not Hindi but English. This generation (including myself) can read/write/speak in English better than in any native Indian language. Parents make it a point to speak only in English with their children. There is a huge segment of the English educated that has lost touch with its roots and is becoming a foreigner in their own land. I would be happy if Indians are able to read/write/speak fluently in at least one Indian language - be it Hindi or Tamil or any other.

> How much did our Punjabi speaking ancestors leave behind in written Punjabi?

Romair #some

Languages flower under state support and sponsorship. One can choose to not give state support and sponsorship to one`s own language and then accuse it of not having sufficient `literature.`

Romair #90 ``I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive. That is the most progressive and easiest way for a society to advance. ``

So stigmatizing native languages and their supporters through a massive propaganda campaign and using the whole apparatus of state to enforce Urdu constitutes, in your opinion, a survial of the fittest on a level playing field?

How long do you honestly think Urdu would survive in Pakistan without state patronage?

``What to talk of science, there isn`t even much poetry in Punjabi, in comparison to other languages.``

The canon of Punjabi literature is among the very largest and oldest of all the nations of South Asia.


``How many contributions in medicine are there in Punjabi? What about philosophical and artistic masterpieces? Compare that to what is avaialble in English, or Arabic, or now even in Urdu. ``


This is just too funny! How many ground breaking research papers have been published in Urdu language journals? No, lets make it easier. How many papers, of any quality, have ever been published in Urdu? No, let`s make it easier still. How many institutes impart a scientific education in Urdu? I really would love to know.


``Punjabi has lost out in the battle of languages. It, itself, must have beaten out other languages, in the Punjab area, earlier. If we are so hung up on nationalism, then why stop at Punjabi? Why not go back to the langauge preceeding it in Punjab? ``

Because Punjabi is a language spoken by 120 Million people. No one now, unless you know better, speaks Sanskrit.

ponniyinseylvan: When I commented that there were two thread going, I did not mean it negatively as you assumed. Discussion for the sake of learning something and for adding some knowledge/insights of one`s own (of the kind you were doing) does not diminish the dialogue - it enriches it.

My references to the CREIP was to a totally different type of posters from India - the kind who visit chowk only as an opportunity to ridicule pakistanis from the safety of the internet and to glorify India. Although in their own way they are also (unintentionally) educational, by now I for one have had enough of them and the only use I for one have for them is to have a bit of fun assigning them CREIP numbers.

That said, there is a lot of interesting things going on in the sub-continent, and posters like you from India make chowk a more interesting and educational place to spend time in.

`Pakistan` is nothing more than a conspiracy by the remnants of the old Turko-Afghan elites of Hindustan to retain the privileges they enjoyed for many centuries. The fact that things didn`t work out quite as they intended is another matter altogether.

They saw not only their priveliges but their culture and way of life threatened by an independent India which naturally would now be ruled by the Hindu majority. Somehow, someway they have managed to persuade the descendents of Bhagwan Das and Jaspal Singh in Punjab that he is the heir to the `Islamic` civilization of India and he has to do his utmost to protect it. What in the Lord`s name do the sons of Raja Jaipal Shahi have in common with the sons of Sultan Mahmud???

It is painful to think that Punjabi was an enslaved nation for hundreds of years. It is even more painful and humiliating to think that that slavery hasn`t really ended even now.

no laughing matter this
This is a story ( event?) that happened on 25th august 2003 Sialkot , Panj-Daryaa.

1. A lawyer dies.aug 25 2004
2. civil judges take time off to mourn his death.
3. They assemble in the chambers of the sessions judge for gup-shup (idle talk)
4. Sessions Judge was to visit the jail for inspection that day.
5. The civil judges, 25 or so, decided to give him company.
6. When this baraat of judges entered the jail, some prisoners rioted.
7. They took the judges hostage.
8. Negotiations with the sessions judge included all cases to be dropped & safe passage for the
hostage takers.
9. Negotiations did not work.
10. Police were instructed not to resolve matter violently.
11. Police did.
12. Several judges killed & injured. Some prisoners too.
13. Hostage takers escaped.
14. D.I.G & police were charged on criminal grounds--still on job.
15. The families of the dead & injured judges are going from one door to the next to seek justice but now they are a nobody.
16. Nothing has happened. Nothing will.

From Jang Karachi september 16,2004

Ok satyamvada..as u please.
I really do believe that quest of knowledge should be undertaken for a person by himself herself and that includes all kinds of google searches etc. Spoonfeeding should be avoided.
Anyways..read this.There are quotes in the essay.
http://www.boloji.com/kabir/essays/01.htm

Raw_Dust:
Allow me to burst your bubble of false-expectations from Bangladeshis.

Pre-Islamic poetry especially that of Umr-ulQuais has been a favourite from the prophet`s (pbuh) time to the present day. In all muslim-arab countries pre-Islamic arab poetry is also a must for the curriculum for all..not just literature buffs. Even christians from Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon have been bitten by power & beauty of this language and they do not want any other[ they all told me that]

Just as muslims of Pakistan enjoy themselves to listen to Lata etcs songs but not to express their appreciation for Indian`s occupation for Kashmir. Using western technology is not an endorsement of western `values`. People do things for their own pleasure and not to please or displease `enemies.`

Similarly Tagore is a favourite of Bengalis be they Bangladeshis not. Or are you suggesting that Tagore was a Kaafir? A Brahmu-Samaaj , a fundamentalist believer in non-idolatory, a kaafir? a visitor to the rauzas & maqbraas in iran & Iraq a kafir? the one who had a dialogue with einstein about the essentiality of belief in God a akaafir?

I hope , similarly, Iqbal is being taught to kids in India. No?

ponniyinselvan #87
I think you are right about the entertainment industry.Only Tamil and Telegu have thriving commercial cinema.Is it because of the lack of a big market?Anyways,outstanding movies do get made in other languages as well.Point is,regional languages can coexist with Hindi.
And you know my views already about the three language formula. I personally would have felt lucky to have learnt a more popular language like Tamil Telegu Malyalam Bangla Marathi Punjabi in school instead of Sanskrit.I would perhaps have understood the diversity of India better.

There is an excellent research article by Prof. Tariq Rehman, titled ``Peoples and Languages of pre-Islamic Indus Valley`` with more than 60 references at

http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/peoplesandlanguages.html

All interested must read it for a better understanding of the origins of current languages of the Indus valley. I tried to post this article here but becasue of its sheer size, it did not appear. Some of the findings are:

I. Most of the languages (Sindhi, Sariaki, Punjabi, Hindko and Kashmiri) of the region developed about the same time.

2. They did not get mentioned in literature because Muslim invaders prefered to call all of them Hindvi. Amir Khusro in 1317 mentioned the language spoken in Lahore as Lahori.

3. All Languages evolved from prakrits.

4. Before destruction of Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro, there was definitely more Dravidian component in the languages of the region than now.

5. Kashmir (during Kushans) and Sindh (during Persian rule) were larger than current sizes, as administrative regions.

6. Pashtuns moved into current NWFP and Balochistan during 16th and 17th century from west (Afghanistan). Balochs also moved in the region from west. Thus before Pashtun and Baloch migrations, Indus was not a boundry between prakrits and Indo-Iranian languages. Prakrits were spoken all the way to Kandhar.

7. Two charts very clearly describe the route these languages took and what influenced them along the way.

Romair, how is your Punjabi speaking representative doing in Canadian parliament?....oh I forgot he represents only Canadians..too bad.


I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive.<<

and you idea of ``open market``, and ``fittest competition`` is: enforce Urdu by law and condemn anyone who sticks to his mother language...you got a very fair and balanced system going on.


I am totally against pushing ancient languages for retrogressive nationalistic reasons only.<<

so now Sindhi, balochi and Punjabi are ancient languages? ``retrogressive nationalistic reasons``? you got to define that dude...urdu is the ``retrogressive nationalistic`` language being pushed down people`s throats. You are kind of funny.

if they are allowed to follow the natural course of evolution in Pakistan. <<

natural course?


If people really want to make Punjabi stay, they need to make it economically attractive. Not by saying it will increase or decrease religion and extremism. To do that, they need to start translating science and other books into Punjabi.<<

I gues you did all your scientific education in urdu through translated books. right? If nto why test Punjabi for that? all native lanuages including hindi and urdu are handicapped in sciences and many other subjects. I don`t know anyone who did his engineering and medical education in a local language. do you?


What do people with Masters in urdu and hindi do? Punjabi graduates will do the same. Language graduates usually work in publishing nad government....

also studying Punjabi and giving it a priority does not mean everyone hs to do masters in Punjabi...people shoudl study sciences and medical subject in english(as they do now). You have a weired lens to view things..either everyone is Masters in Punjabi or everyone leaves it all together.

rahul_capri...

Instead of giving me exact references - you want to just say ``look again`` : )

My friend, all I can say is go to the library and get a book of Kabir`s compositions
(or through inter-library loan) and read it yourself. Read multiple interpretations,
and then come to a decision.

The internet is not a substitute for real scholarly effort.

re: ponniyinselvan # 87

``When Indian Punjab was divided according to the language, Haryana Hindus who spoke Punjabi mentioned their language as Hindi, to save their areas from being included into the predominantly Sikh state.``

In general, I have really enjoyed your posts but I think the above statement is not exactly right. It is true that Punjabi Hindus in Haryana put down their mother tongue as Hindi in the census, but I think it is for reasons other than being included ``into`` a ``predominantly Sikh state``. According to Patwant Singh, the Sikh author, it is probably the first time that a minority (the Sikhs were a minority in the the entity/province before its partition ) campaigned to keep the state together. As against the normal trend of a minority campaigning ot break off.

If the partition of the province had been avoided then, the state would have been more diverse with significant # of non-Punjabi paharis, gujars etc. The partition of the province was seen as a betrayal by Punjabi-lovers and romantics would wanted a kind of pseudo-Akhand Punjab. These romantics can be found every now and then who speak of the glory days of Punjab when Punjabi was understood by almost the whole of North India, including in Rajasthan. In any case, the hatred of the Hindus (especially of the Punjabi variety) that is commonly found in expatriate Sikhs can be traced back to this time of partition of the state.

As a corollary, if this post-independence partition had been avioded, the Sikh dharma itself would have been protected from some psycho Jat Sikhs who hijacked the religion and the province in the years to come. Diverging Sikh voices would not have been drowned in the voice of the gun that devastated a generation in a Sikh-majority Punjab. A larger province would have meant more bargaining power with the center and it would not have been seen as purely a ``border state`` that needed to be ``managed``.

regards,

Kabuli

HP #62: Thanks for the informative post, as usual. Your knowledge of Sind and SameerJB`s knowledge of Punjab is quite amazing. As is Naqshbandis` knowledge of Islam. Unfortunately, the later two (Sameer and Asif) tend to become very illogical if they are commenting on issues they emotionally like or hate. Specifically those related to their understanding of Islam.

I realize MQM arrived in eighties. Which is when the maulvis started to lose in urban Sind. Which was my whole point.

Other than that, my point was not to put down Sindhi or Punjabi culture. As you have clearly pointed out, my knowledge of Sind and Baluchistan is limited. It is very academic. I have never been outside of Karachi. And I have spend only three days of my life in Baluchistan. My knowledge on that area is through statistics and reading.

I have, however, spent most of my teenage years and all of professional career in Pakistan, in the boondocks of rural Punjab and NWFP. So I do have practical experience in that area. The biggest Punjab city I ever worked in was Sargodha. All others very tiny.

Here is my take on languages:

I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive. That is the most progressive and easiest way for a society to advance. I am totally against pushing ancient languages for retrogressive nationalistic reasons only. It leaves societies way behind others. And usually serves only the interests of the few. If you see the people pushing Punjabi in Pakistan (and maybe even Sindhi), you will notice that they, themselves are well connected to English and Urdu and quite well off. However, they want the peasants to be bound to Punjabi medium education, to satisfy their own nostalgia. Why don`t they send their own kids to Punjabi medium schools in Kasur, and not Englislh medium schools in Clifton and USA?

I still think Punjabi (and Sindhi and Baluchi) are dying (in Pakistan) and will die someday, if they are allowed to follow the natural course of evolution in Pakistan. Only Sikhs will keep it alive, due to religious reasons. The reasons are simple. People, specifically poorer ones, will always prefer langauges that allow them to move up the economic ladder quickly. The more written content in the fields of science, art, politics, history etc. that is available in a language, the more economically powerful it will be.

This is why the Punjabi peasant wants to learn Urdu. And the Urdu peasant wants to learn English. What exactly can anyone do in the world with a Masters degree in Punjabi? Where will he get a job? Does it make sense for Pakistani universities to spend their already meagre resources in turning out Punjabi graduates? Obviously not.

If people really want to make Punjabi stay, they need to make it economically attractive. Not by saying it will increase or decrease religion and extremism. To do that, they need to start translating science and other books into Punjabi. How long will that take? And who is willing to do it?

How much did our Punjabi speaking ancestors leave behind in written Punjabi? What to talk of science, there isn`t even much poetry in Punjabi, in comparison to other languages. Bulleh Shah barely wrote anything. How many centers of academic excellence etc. did Punjab produce, where Punjabi was the medium? How many contributions in medicine are there in Punjabi? What about philosophical and artistic masterpieces? Compare that to what is avaialble in English, or Arabic, or now even in Urdu.

For any language to survive in the long run, it needs an overwhleming amount of content to dominate its competitors. These langauges survived historically because communities were cut off from each other. Was Bulleh Shah exposed to French and English? He would have easy access to it today. Now with the global village, people need to standardize more and more on a lower number of langauges. This attracts people to the langauge which gives them the most liberty of movement. In Pakistan, that is Urdu. In the world it is English.

This also kills all other languages that only have local importance.

If we started translating everything into Punjabi today, it would take over sixty years to just get to the level where Urdu is today, in terms of sceintific and other content. What to talk of English. Will anyone ever do that? And what purpose will it serve, other than satisfying some rich folks` nostalgia and nationalistic ideas. By that time, with the literacy rate going up, the Punjabi peasants will have already been educated in Urdu, and Urdu (and English) will be a furthur sixty years ahead.

Punjabi has lost out in the battle of languages. It, itself, must have beaten out other languages, in the Punjab area, earlier. If we are so hung up on nationalism, then why stop at Punjabi? Why not go back to the langauge preceeding it in Punjab? Or back to the cavemen days, and communicate through sign language and grunts?

Pakistan has its hands full with graduating people with madrassah degrees, who are unemployable. The last thing it needs is graduating even more unemployable kids with Punjabi degrees and medium of education, who will have no content to study beyond Bulleh Shah.

Sticking to Punjabi, when the rest of the world is moving onto English and Mandarin (two most powerful languages of the emerging century) is like a country sticking to the tonga, while the rest of the world is moving onto bullet trains, just because its leaders like the clic-clac noise of the horse`s hoof.

More on Sindhi and Baluchi later. Though my knowledge in that area is only from a distance.........

P.S. This does not mean we whould not study the history or culture of Punjab. We should study it in langauges, which give us economic clout in the local and global society. Which is why I have started translating Punjabi material............

satyamvada #68
``can you give me the actual reference verses that Kabir has written to criticize mullah`s or pandits ? I went through the link and could not find anything !``
Please,look again.Did you just look at the home page?
``Again, Look up the meaning of the word heretic at www.m-w.com.
The word heretic is for ``religions`` like Christianity, judaism, islam etc.``
Please, look again.
So, just for the sake of clarity, I would like to repeat,you have to look for where Kabir has criticised Mullahs and pandits;and you have to look for the (alternate)meaning of the word heretic.
`` Be a skeptic and check things out.``
ha ha ha

echoboom: Yea, Tagore is being taught to bangali kids in school, i heard. (Mashallah and Subhanallah and all the other praises to the godess of mecca Al-Laath on that one)

#85 by stuka
Stuka,

I thought that was tongue in cheek…but turned out that was the shallowest post by you ever…
The politician in Jail for the last eight years is a Sindhi… both Punjabi leader and Delhi leader were/are terrified to let him go.
That men is Zardari; but then he lost his marbles a longtime ago…

#80 tahmed32
“We have two threads going (a South Indian thread about Tamil vs. Hindi, and another one on Panjabi culture vs Mullah culture).”

I am really sorry for this poking of my nose into a Punjabi board. I thought of showing a similar example from India. I hope you will forgive me if I make some more comments on the Tamil thread, now that I am the culprit who started it.


#45, 77 Ralph
“are you suggesting that Tamil has a similar status in India as does Punjabi in Pakistan? :)”

“Culturally it is as authentically Indian as any other.”

Tamil does not have a similar status in India, as does Punjabi in Pakistan. I think it is in a much better position. It does not have the misfortune of a mother abandoned by her own children, which is happening in West Punjab. What Tamil is facing could be compared to Sindhi at best. Why I brought Tamil issue was just to highlight the commonality of problems facing the native languages of Indian subcontinent, which are usually referred to as “vernacular” and “regional” languages. If the Hindi-speakers realize how true your second statement is, this will not be an issue at all. It is true that Tamil is in a quite safe and dynamic position now. Thanks for showing a genuine understanding.

#52 rsridhar

“Is Sanskrit an extinct or dead language then? Not per the census of India. Last heard, about 50000 people are known to speak that language!”

If we see technically, that is, if the purpose of a language is to communicate, Sanskrit is a dead language indeed. The census figure of Sanskrit speakers is due to the Sanskrit –lovers who want to revive it. When Indian Punjab was divided according to the language, Haryana Hindus who spoke Punjabi mentioned their language as Hindi, to save their areas from being included into the predominantly Sikh state. This phenomenon will explain the number of Sanskrit speakers in the census as well. However, Sanskrit is still being used in thousands of temples across the country. Even if is not living, it does exist in daily life.

#58 rsridhar
“What I found disturbing was Tamil was NOT spoken the way it is written. There is a lot of distortions that need to be discarded. It should be made to sound better. Remember how Shivaji Ganeshan spoke Tamil. Few speak that way now-a-days.”

This is not a drawback, I suppose. It is not unique to Tamil. Diglossia is a socio-linguistic phenomenon where there is a divergence of spoken language from the literary language (not simply the casual- proper forms). It is seen in many languages including Tamil, Kannada, Greek, and a lot of others. Moreover, Sanskrit became extinct only because it was elitist and literary. Prakrit, Pali and Ardhamagadhi became different languages because Sanskrit became a “Deva Basha” when these were called “Neecha Basha”. The growth and dynamism of a language lies with the common people who speak it, aided by the literary reference which helps preventing a degeneration.

“……I agree Tamil is old enough to be called Classical.”

This is a very grey area in linguistics. I had a correspondence with many linguistic scholars (I being a layman), and they say that there are no set criteria for a language to be called classical. The commonly accepted criteria are: 1. The language should be ancient 2.It should have a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature 3.Such literary tradition should have been independent, indigenous and original 4.It should have given rise to other languages and 5.Controversially, it should be extinct.

How ancient? Probably “ancient enough”. How enough? No answers. Because, many languages like Albanian and Scandinavian languages are older than the classical Tamil, Sanskrit, Greek, Latin etc. Arabic is not old enough, as even Indian languages like Kannada are older than that. So, the second, third and fourth criteria are more important in calling any language classical, together with an “adequately” ancient origin. The fifth criteria, which is not usually accepted, will dequalify Tamil and Arabic from being classical languages.

”If u meet Northies that are ignorant about Tamil, u need to educate them. Their ignorance of South is just unbelievable!”

I don’t wish to do that anymore, as I always end up in a bitter state of mind, called variously as chauvinist, fanatic, frog-in-the-well, British spy, unpatriotic and what not. An ignorant fellow is blissful in his argument because he thinks he has cornered the opponent, and the one who knows fails because he knows his point is valid, but not taken.

#57 rahul_capri
“IMO the three language formula does make sense, though it should be implemented on North Indian Hindi speaking belt as well. The assimilation should not be one-sided. This is the correct way to ensure nationalism, not by pushing a language down the throat of someone.”

“there is a thriving literature and entertainment industry in every vernacular language and they are taught in schools as well.”

I cant agree more with you regarding the three language formula. It was meant to integrate the country by cultural exchange via language. However, it became a one-sided affair. South Indians are asked to learn Hindi, but Hindi-speakers usually learn Sanskrit, not any Southern language! Nationalism seems to flow one way. Regarding the thriving literature: true. Entertainment industry in other languages? I don’t think so except in Tamil and Telugu.

Uurstruly:

What snake oil are you selling now?

``Punjab was silent when madarchod faujis were giving away half of our to country to buniya on a platter``

It was the Pakistan Army that faught India in 1971 trying to keep your country together. It was the Sindhi crook Bhutto who created the situation in the first place. You have the tendency to view all history from your personal lens. God knows I am no fan of the Pak Army which is a big parasite to your country. But to blame 1971 debacle on the Army is wrong. It was your civil politicians and their inability to share political space that led to your debacle.

And the only politician of note imprisoned by your Na Pak Fauj is a Punjabi. The politician who tried to make a comeback and was hurriedly put in another plane and sent back was a Punjabi as well. The ruler of Pak on the other hand is a bonafide Delhite. The one who never suffered chtirol under Sikhshahi etc etc.

All:

Good to have input from the Great Frontier Province of Pakistan (from zeejah) as well on the language issue. If we are to consider where languages came from, we must start at the beginning.

Thus, mankind (homo sapiens) are believed (based on extensive evidence from east africa and georgia in particular) by now almost certain to have spread in this manner: out of africa, to the regions around the Caspian Sea area, and from there to India, China, Europe - and further on to the americas, australia. If one assumes this to be true (and by now it is almost certain to be the case), then it logically follows that ALL indian languages have probably came either via the north-west (which you as a NWFP person proudly note) or via the south-west (mekran coast perhaps). This was the pre-historic wave, which would include dravidian people.

Next would be the more familiar wave of invaders from the north-west (starting in the millenia preceding Christ and continuing until a few centuries ago. These would be ALL indo-aryan languages, including sanskrit (which clearly preceded panjabi) and Old Panjabi. These invasions took place between the time of christ and around 5 AD, which was the time the scythians and other tribes (including ancestors of most modern day panjabis - jats, gujjars, arains) came to india.

So: coming to your point about whether hindko came before other panjabi dialects - it would seem in fact to be the other way around: since (assuming the principle of FIFO - first in, first out), the earlier invaders would have moved further south and were replaced by tribes that came later, one would expect dialects spoken in south panjab, sindh etc. to predate those in northern panjab and NWFP. Arab and persian and turkish influences (which led to the development of urdu from what used has been variously called kharri boli, hindustani, or old panjabi) would thus have come about five centuries after. (Hindi was then created artificially on top of urdu by hindu nationlists who came into being during the waning days of the british raj).

At least this is the logic that makes sense to me. Being in the company of people more knowledgeable than myself, I would be pleased to see what you think - or would care to add to or change from the above description of how languages developed in the subcontinent.

Sindhi , written in arabic script , has retained its pride and has produced L.K.Advani. So this dream of fundamentalism making room for bhaanD-bhanGRRa hedonism is a drain-pipe dream.

Panjabi survived by keeping the arabic/farsi script. Most `literature` until last century is in Urdu. (I have some of Bhai Veer singhs writings). The greatest `damage` was done when gurmukhi (to make it non-muslim) was adopted. The cultural chasm between Panjabis was set. This is why no other province in Pakistan has this `confusion`.

Co-opertaing with every rising sun ( today it is Mushharraf; there was sindhi Bhutto, arain Zia, afghan yahya, pathaan ayub, Begali Sikander, etc etc) and lota-cracy is a hallmark of this region. No other province excels at this. Adjustment, pragmatism, maujaaN-karo is the defining characteristic of the Panjabi Muslim ( even Iqbal wrote that). `` Oye Ghairat aanee janee shai vay, bunday nooN dhit honaa chaeeda aye`` was recently exhibited with such adeeda-dlairee right here.


Bengalis, bright & proud people that they are, retained the script. The bengalis, mashallah, are far more fundamentalist, God-fearing, and learning oriented in all-fields than those weaned on Sikhaa-shahi Chhitrauls and are still fomenting the memories for the ``good-old-days``.

And frankly, despite being a Punjabi myself, which I am quite ashamed of by the way, it saddens me to see the state of mind of Punjabis with respect to their relationship with na-Pak fauj. They know very well that it is this fauj who lost half of our country because of their meddling with constitutional affairs and politics of the polity and their incompetence and cowardice in battlefields and yet they speak no word about them. Isn`t it punjabi army that is currently waging an attrocious war on citizens of Pakistan with gunship helicopters and guided missiles. Where is a voice from Punjab. Isn`t it Punjabi army who has denied the constitutional rights of other provinces with their guns. Where is voice from Punjab. Punjab was silent when madarchod faujis were giving away half of our to country to buniya on a platter and Punjab is silent now when they have turned our country into imperialists` underling. So these Punjabis, devoid of any shred of self respect and dignity desreve what they have got. They deserve to be stripped off their mother tongue. They deserve to be the most hated people in the country. They earned it. How on earth the people who have no respect for their country and for their fellow human beings can claim to revive a dying language? Excuse me, I do not buy crap, no matter how loud you hawk.

dionysus

Usually, I hate to get into jatt vs araiN and gujr vs rajput and superior punjabi vs inferior punjabi discussions because it gives me heebee jeebees; and that is the reson I avoid Punjabi discussion boards like plague but I must bring this point to the fore that since na- pak army constitutionally is a political party now (no pun intended) and it is currently the ruling party, therefore, it has the most clout in not only Punjab but the whole country. And majority of the members of this party are from the West bank of jehlum, therefore, common sense suggests that West has political clout over East. The jatts of east bank are merely underlings, are they not? As a matter of fact for army they are dime a dozen. so any claim that jatts are going to give back punjab what is taken from it is a mere joke - a sad joke.

I think the discussion on this thread is quite interesting. We have two threads going (a South Indian thread about Tamil vs. Hindi, and another one on Panjabi culture vs Mullah culture). (We also had a creepy CREIP trying to creep in, but lets hope we can have some more of this discussion before the inevitable degeneration into creepisms).

I belive that since the Indian subcontinent was deeply influenced by invaders and traders from Central Asia/Iran etc., the flow of change seeped into the subcontinent from West to East. This is true for Punjabi which is actually a DIALECT of Hindko which is spoken in more westerly regions and is historically older than Punjabi.
It was the rise of Sikhism and especially during the reign of the great Sikh king Ranjit Singh that the dialect attracted poets and writers making it rich and vibrant and better known than Hindko.

# 75 76

There are Hindu Khattars as well , I am assuming they are from West Punjab.

# 70

Tiwanas are supposed to be Jatts among the Sikhs.

#75 Urstruly ``It is the same sardar sikandar whom you just despised in your last post for ``oppressing` jatts. ``

Hain? Where did I say that? I said Sardar Sikhandar`s (and Malik Khizar`s) opposition to the creation of Pakistan and partition of Punjab discredited the Ja