The Tale of Five Rivers

Malik # 99

I can not recollect specifically Dilbagh Singh. I have read lots of writings on Punjabi language, Bhakti and Sufism and `History of Sikhs`. And found a theme evolving. I also wanted to make a brief mention of few poets/sufis in just one or two lines with their important verses. So if I have picked up a phrase or two from somebody, it is possible.

But I have never plagiarized any ideas and thoughts and never will. It is disgusting for me. I also plagiarize Shakespear`s phrases.

NHk

Veeresh # 15

There is a romance to the rivers. Cities and civilizations have been built on their banks.

I did not expect this much of Rap on this article - maybe it should have come after TNT & Fauj.

NHK

NHK/18, right now, Punjabi civilisation is being over-layered on rivers all across the world, which is just as good. As for being rapped about an article, not too worry, it is part of the deal. Please keep writing with the breadth of vision that only a regular traveller can achieve.

This complete TNT and Fauj thing is in my opinion a bit of cleansing up that is going on.

in response to post #2.

panch is five in persian as well. it probably is not pronounced the same way we pronounce it, but it is five.

for the person who wanted nazar sahib to post amrita pritam`s ``aj aakhan waris shah nu``, it is readily locatable on google.com. that is where i found it:

aaj aakhaN waris shah nuuN

aaj aakhaN waris shah nuuN, kitoN kabraaN vichchoN bol,
te aaj kitab-e ishq daa koii aglaa varkaa phol

ik roii sii dhii punjaab dii, tuuN likh likh maare vaen,
aaj lakhaaN dhiiaaN rondiaa, tainuN waris shah nuN kahen

uTh dardmandaaN diaa dardiaa, uth takk apnaa punjaab
aaj bele lashaaN bichhiaaN te lahu dii bharii chenab

kise ne panjaN paniaN vichch dittii zahar ralaa
te unhaaN paniiaaN dharat nuuN dittaa paanii laa

is zarkhez zamiin de luun luun phuttia zaher
gitth gitth charhiaaN laaliaN fuuT fuuT charhiaa kaher

veh valliissii vha pher van van vaggii jaa,
ohne har ik baaNs di vanjhalii ditti naag banaa

pehlaa dang madaariaN, mantar gaye guaach,
dooje dang di lagg gayii, jane khane nuN laag

aagaaN kiile lok muNh, bus phir dang hi dang,
palo palii punjaab de, neele pae gaye ang.

gale`oN tutt`e giit phir trakaleon tuttii tand,
trinjanoN tuttiaaN saheliaaN, chaRakhRre ghuukar band

sane sej de beriaaN, luddaN dittiaaN rohr,
sane daliaan peengh aj, piplaaN dittii toR

jitthe vajdii sii phuuk pyaar dii, ve oh vanjhalii gayii guaach
raanjhe de sab viir aaj, bhul gaye usadii jaach

dhartii te lahuu varsiyaa, kabraaN paiaaN chon,
preet diaaN shaahzaadiaaN, aaj vichch mazaaraaN ron

aaj sabh `Qaido` ban gaye, husn ishq de chor
aaj kitthoN liaaiye labbh ke waris shah ik hor

aaj aakhaN waris shah nuuN, kitoN kabraan vichchoN bol,
te aaj kitaab-e ishq daa, koii aglaa varkaa phol

~amrita pritam

NHK,

I would like to get examples/references from Kabir - where he criticizes the pandit ?
or for that matter any profession or officer etc.
No, I am not trying to corner you - but, I am asking this because I want to know
and understand more about Kabir.

The communists in India have done a great job setting up many of the bhakti-sants
as some kind of ``social revolutionaries`` etc - which is a bunch of crap. If you read
most of the original writings - there is no basis for such ``revolution`` or class-warfare
ideas.

Unfortunately, many people are misled by such left-wing trash.

I do not speak Punjabi at Home. I have never read Punjabi and its literature. My parents spoke Punjabi. Bulleh Shah only comes after 11 PM after a few drinks - Mandar Dha Dey, Masjid Da Deh. Why?

What a shame, the blame lies entirely with your parents for not speaking to you in Punjabi. Punjabi is wtritten in Gurmukhi & Shahmukhi, if you can read Urdu you will be able to read Shahmukhi, a little effort to learn Gurmukhi will open up so much more Punjabi literature for you, it is quite easy to learn. For more information on Punjabi visit,

www.apnaorg.com

Why Punjabi is only in the air in the Punjabi countryside. It is not on paper. It is not on road signs. Why it is language of only the poor. We speak to our farm worker, driver, cook in Punjabi. The poor try to speak a vulgarized Urdu trying to show that they are more cultured. We try to break into English to show that we are more educated. Why Punjabi is at the lowest rung of status.

Punjabi is in the countryside, but also in our cities too, in our family in Lahore we only speak Punjabi in the house, to each other and the servants, Urdu will only be spoken to non Punjabi ppl. But Punjabi is the primary language for all my family in Lahore, who take great pride in speaking their `lhauri` Punjabi. My mama ji has outlawed Urdu in his house, and never do his children speak to him Urdu, if they ever did, he would very angry and a scolding would be coming their way.

Their are many affluent Punjabi ppl who speak their Ma Boli with great pride. You can see PUnjabi street signs in Southall, Hounslow, Surrey (Vancouver) etc. There are ppl in Pak with inferiority complex, however the tide is turning and Punjabi in Punjab is making a come back.

nhk -- its not a few phrases sir -- its a shame that when you`ve been caught like this you actually have the gall to say that you havent -- people arent blind -- if you want to mention stuff about ``a few poets/sufis`` then you should attribute it to the writer where you picked up the ideas from (in this case you didnt even bother paraphrase it in your own words) --

Urstruly

``As a result what we have today is the aadha teetar aadha batair of sikhism and present day sufism which treads right onto the boundries of Kufr and Shirk. I don`t understand``

As I understand it Sikhism derived from the Bhakti movement and Guru Nanak was a Hindu who founded a totally new and wonderful religion. So how can it be Kufr and Shirk when it has nothing to do with Islam? Anyway, that psychopath Aurengzeb had his skin set on fire by the Sikhs too just like you and thats why he started chopping their heads off around the time of their ninth Guru, I believe. What a psychopath. Try smoking a joint it will help you get over your hatreds and inferiority complex.

Punjab paid the highest price for the partition. Its land, rivers, Language, script writing, people and families everything divided. Millions of Punjabis died and suffered during partition.

But today in Pakistan Punjabis are declared to be the only bad guys. Listen to all these Sindhis, Baluchis, Pakhtoons and Urdu Speaking they all blame Punjab for every bad thing.

Some years ago I heard a slogan in Karachi i.e. ``Sindhi Muhajir Bhai Bhai, Dhoti Pug kahan say aye``

I also see that instead of rebutting all these allegations, Punjabis are defensive.

By the grace of Allah we Punjabis have the oldest civilization, we are intelligent, our people are Nobel Lauriat, we are brave warriors, we are hardworking and following Chinese we are the second biggest expatriate’s nation on the Globe, an example of success.

Why Punjabis are so defensive, why they do not challenge these allegations??

Thank you for the article. What the sufies achieved over centuries , the Saudi funded schools seem to have been able to undo within a genration.

Regd. settlement of foreign tribes in Panjab, for example Niazis of Mianwali , they must have displaces native tribes both muslim as well as non-muslim. Does this also explain the feudal setup in Panjab and in Pakistan? So in effect unless the past 50 years have resulted in social mobility , very few of the descendants of local tribes own land or resources in the land of their ancestors.

How true are the above statements?

An encore is in order!

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#12 by echoboom on September 13, 2004 1:40pm PT
malik99:10
haaa haaaa haaa and Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, HaaaaaaaaaaaaH.

The `tail` of five rivers is now neatly tucked where the sun never shines. `` O ghairat aani jaani shai vay, bunday nooN dhit honaa chaeeda aye``

Shoild CHOWK-STAFF would now delete the ``article``? Probably not. You see he hates Islam & muslims. That, in CHOWK wisdom, is a sure sign of being `modern` `emancipated` `evolved` and `reformed`.

No wonder they are terrified of mullahs [good word--use it often]

Baba Guru Nanak was really a muslim? Some ineresting facts & observations for(academic interest only)

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Baba Nanak elaborated on the true Muslim thus:

He who is firm in his faith,
Has the right to be called a Muslim.
His acts must be in accord with his faith in the Prophet,
He must clean his heart of his pride and greed,
Not being troubled by the two imposters life and death,
Resigned to the will of God;
Knowing Him as the Doer,
Free [ing] himself from the self,
Be [ing] compassionate towards all beings, O Nanak,
Such a one may call himself a Muslim.

These two touching, powerful sets of verses, contained in the Guru Granth Sahib, show Baba Nanak as deeply grounded in Islam and in the Sufi tradition. Far from displaying any hostility towards Muslims or Islam, they show him to be genuinely respectful of Islam, the Prophet and those following sincerely in the Prophet’s path.

Guru Nanak maintained close relations with numerous Muslims throughout his life. He had many Muslim disciples, who, while respecting him, remained Muslim, for Baba Nanak only exhorted them to become better Muslims rather than to change their faith or communal allegiances. The Janamsakhis or biographical accounts and Udasis or travel accounts of Baba Nanak also show him as visiting numerous places in India and beyond in order to meet withaccomplished Sufi saints, such as Shaikh Brahm (Ibrahim?) in Pak Pattan, Sayyed Shah Husain in Nanded, Shaikh Sharf in Panipat, Pir Hamza Ghaus in Sialkot and Shaikh Bahlol in Baghdad.Sikh sources tell us that Baba Nanak went as far as Mecca to perform the Haj. Since only Muslims are allowed to enter Mecca, many Muslims believe that Baba Nanak had, by this time, himself become a Muslim, although many contemporary Sikhs would contest that suggestion.

Several Muslim writers, including noted Sufi saints, considered Baba Nanak to have been a Muslim wali or ‘friend of God’. Ample evidence exists to suggest a strong Islamic influence on the Guru. One of the most intriguing relics of Baba Nanak is the Chola Sahib, which is preserved at a gurudwara at Dera Baba Nanak. It is a long cloak with short sleeves made of brown cotton cloth. It was first used by Baba Nanak, and then passed on to his successor Guru Angad, who is said to have wound it around his head when being ordained as guru. The ceremony of wearing the chola about the head while being ordained as guru continued till the fifth guru, Arjan Das, after which the chola was preserved to prevent further decay.

The chola is no ordinary cloak. It is said to be written over entirely with verses from the Qur’an, testifying to the oneness of God, the truth of Islam and the prophethood of Muhammad. Given this, some Muslim writers assert that this shows that Baba Nanak wore the cloak in order to stress that he was actually a Muslim. On the other hand, Sikh writers, while admitting the authenticity of the chola, claim that it was bestowed upon Baba Nanak by the Caliph when he visited Baghdad as a sign of respect and honour. Muslim writers, and especially the Ahmadis, retort by suggesting that this incident is not mentioned in reliable historical accounts. Further, the question of why a Muslim Caliph should bestow a cloak with Qur’anic verses written all over it to Baba Nanak if he was not a Muslim, in the sense that the Caliph understood the term, remains unanswered.

Baba Nanak’s close relations with Muslims is most readily evidence by the fact that his dearest disciple, who remained with him wherever he went, Bhai Mardana, was himself a Muslim. Like Baba Nanak’s other Muslim disciples, Mardana remained a Muslim throughout his life. Today his descendants live in Pakistan and describe themselves as Sikh-Muslims. Mardana is said to have been some nine years older than Baba Nanak. He was born in Talwandi in 1459, which was also Baba Nanak’s ancestral village, in a family of Muslim Mirasis, hereditary singers. Mardana’s father Badra was the family bard of Mehta Kalu, Baba Nanak’s father. Every morning Badra and Mardana would go from house to house in the village seeking alms, while singing songs to the accompaniment of the rabab. As a child, Baba Nanak was deeply touched by Mardana’s music, and is said to have felt a strong love for him. When Baba Nanak was employed to look after the stores of the Lodhi Nawab of Sultanpur, he managed to convince the Nawab to give Mardana a job. From then onwards, the two lived together as inseparable companions for the next 54 years, till Mardana’s death in 1520. Baba Nanak would sing his mystical verses and Mardana would play the rabab. Mardana also composed his own verses, three of which are included in the Adi Granth.

According to some accounts, Mardana passed away somewhere in Afghanistan when he and Nanak were returning from the Haj. In his last wish to Baba Nanak he asked, ‘[F]erry me across this ocean of the world for the sake of the word of God, which I have been singing to you and your people’. Baba Nanak then headed for the Punjab, and, back in his village, he persuaded Mardana’s eldest son, Shahzada, to take his father’s place. Shahzada accompanied Baba Nanak to Kartarpur and served as the chief minstrel to him and his other followers.

More could be said on the close links between the early Sikhs and Islam to argue that the notion that Sikhs and Muslims have always been inveterate foes or that Sikhism was Hinduism’s ‘sword-arm’ against Islamic ‘aggression’ is completely misplaced. If that were indeed the case, one may well ask how and why did Guru Arjan Dev, the fifth Sikh Guru, invite Hazrat Miyan Mir, a renowned Qadri Muslim mystic, to lay the foundation stone of the Golden Temple? Clearly, contemporary understandings of Sikh-Muslim relations have little to do with the original teachings of the early gurus. The image of the Muslim as the religious ‘other’ in contemporary Sikh consciousness thus owes entirely to political, rather than religious, factors, in particular to the conflicts between the later gurus and the Mughals. It was this troubled political relationship that laid the ground for the transformation of Sikh-Muslim relations, from warm and intimate, at the time of the early gurus, to oppositional and violently conflictual, in later years, leading to the crystallization of a Sikh identity premised on a fierce hostility towards Muslims.

History, of course, cannot be undone. All we can learn from it is to abstain from the errors of the past, and to seek inspiration from its achievements. Re-reading the history of the early Sikh movement, particularly Baba Nanak’s relations with the Muslims of his times, provides us with an alternate way of imagining Sikh-Muslim relations. This, needless to add, would both be an authentic representation of the Baba Nanak’s own mission as well as a urgently needed corrective to the deeply ingrained notion of Sikhs and Muslims as sworn enemies of each other.

#14 by nazarhayatkhan on September 13, 2004 7:52pm PT

Excellent reminder to those hypocrites who feign ignorance about their childhood friends after reading some books in english madarsas!!
I have always maintained that just as Hindi has eliminated Brajbhasa, Maithili, Awadhi and countless other dialects from the vernacular scene Urdu has eliminated and wiped out Punjabi and its dialects from Pakistan. Fortunately, we do have some resurgence of Brajbhasa and Awadhi but still much needs to be done. The best humanist literature has come from these dialects and not Urdu or hindi which has become the language of the politicians, mullahs and hindu fanatics. Infact, these dialects have been supressed by the politicking of these mullah jamat of deen-e-fasad.
I do not speak punjabi but can understand. The humanism of Punjabi sufi-liberal literature is overwhelming- and I agree that Amrita Pritam belongs to this long tradition of Punjabi humanism.
Great Stuff! Thanks!

What`s wrong with these Islamic freaks? The author has accepted on another board that he collects his material from online sources.

Chowk can institute a new policy of the full disclosure of all sources, but that has hardly been a strictly enforced requirement here. I request NHK to please ignore these bleating camels.

Nazar Khan: I think it is an article on an interesting subject, but too patchy. Also. I think Gandiv is right in pointing out the silliness when you write ``Persian, Greek, Afghan, Turk, Arab and Mongol blood in the local blood line. The did improve the local genetic quality..``

This kind of rubbish would be acceptable from a lesser man than you. I thought you were beyond this. But never fear - I will help you overcome the rubbish that you were taught.

Repeat after me:

Goray rang dhoondtay ho kahaN
Ai Chowk kay Nazar KhaN?
Khuda ki nazar sab haiN yaksaN
Yeh chand din kay mehamaN

Yaar Nazar, I hope you dont mind me saying that it is not impressive piece. ``A Tale....`` should read like a tale with personal poetic touch, little subjectivity and above all flow of a romantic story. Each sentence should connect to the previous and the next sentence. With such a romantic topic as motherland, it is almost an unforgiveable sin to not present it without beautifying. The impression from such domatic topic written as a tale should have been no less than a picturesque travelogue.

There are many things which should have been done to make it look better. Not over-emphasis on political history was one of them. Even within history, the defining period of Punjab is actually least available in the books because it does not connect in anyway with India, Pakistan, Islam, Hinduism or Sikhism. The biggest influence of Punjabi identity in the form of traditioins and culture (including language) is pre-Alexanderian and post-Gupta period until central Asian hordes and Afghans started invading (pre-200 BC and around 600-1100 AD). Pre-Alexanderian history is understandably difficult to ascertain except for vedic literature but the history of the period after the fall of Gupta until the attacks of Mahmud Ghaznavi is available through search, albeit with difficulty.

This is the period when distinct Punjabi identity and culture took shape. During this period a dialect of Prakrit called Abhramsa gave rise to Punjabi language under the rules of several small, fiercely independent states often refered to as rule of white huns or rule of scythian princes. Each kingdon lasted about 100-200 years with centers such as Salpura, Scala (Sialkot), Multan, Bhakkar, Lahore etc. This is the period when tribal identites provided the biggest force to sustain a prince kingdon, who could be now refered to Jats and Rajputs. This is the period which shaped the Punjabi mind as indifferent to larger political trends and later Islamic kingdoms of subcontinent. This period obliterated Brahmin as any meanngful power (religion or otherwise) in the region and also destroyed the myths or realities of caste system in the region because smaller kingdons needed most able bodies to participate in defence of the kingdom. They could not keep a large segment of population outside the affairs of the state. This period reduced Brahmins to the level of modern day village mullah. Punjabi self-centered identity is very much the product of this isolation period. Unlike previous traditions, these huns or Scythians started burying their deads, particularly the rulers. Actually the first written word Jat is on the tombstone of one prince of Salpura.

The larger empires priod which most history books describe and you mentioned were more interested in Gandhara region in the north and Sindh in the south of Punjab. Probably Punjabis living during this period always succeeded in keeping the non-Punjabi larger forces to their bordering areas with quietly paying tribute to whoever ruled or there was not much resistance to talk about from these areas worth mentioning in history.

Punjabi language in modern form is roughly 900 years old and Baba Farid poetry is the proof of it. Actually some of the words attributed to some 50-60 years ealier to Data Ganj Bakhsh also sound Punjabi or Urdu. The word Punjab could not have come into existence by Punjabi themselves becasue the only Punjabi kingdom ruling all areas came in 19th century - that of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. So word Punjab has to be coined from outside in the absence of any political unity in the area. Probably you are right that in 16th century this area was called Punjab. The tale of Heer Ranjha belongs to this era and I believe word Punjab appears in Damodar Das poetic presentation of this tale, who also claiimed to be the contemporary of Heer and Ranjha. Sindh, of course, as name is much older. Al-Beruni also mentioned Saraka almost always when mentioning Sindh, which is more likely Saraiki belt of modern day. Al-Beruni wrote this in earlier 12th century.

There are other mistakes too. Old Persian and Sanskrit were sister languages. The vedic word is sapta sandhu whereas Persian is hapta sandhu as one interactor rightly pointed out. Baba Farid predated Taimur by about 150 years and not came 100 years afetr Taimur. Taimur invasions came during Tughlaq period whereas Baba Farid married ealier King, Balban`s daughter. Taimur actually visited his grave to show respect and offer prayers after massacring some 30,000 people who had taken refuge in a nearby fort, hoping that Taimur would by-pass this fort on his way. I think more likely Baba Farid came 100 years after Ghaznavi.

The physical changes of appearnce, heigh and skin color due to environment take at least an order of magnitude more than cultural changes. They should not be put parallel to each other. The timeframe since neolithic period is too little to changes appearnce through biological survival of the fittest and adaptations whereas cultural changes can take place as little as 100 years. The Punjabis appearance (whatever that means) can as easily attrbuted to mixing with immigrants gebe pool as to survival of the fittest whereby some people have to migrate out. There is no point bringing this up without modern DNA testing to come up some scientific proof. Simple logic would have it to do with out migration. The immigrants from central Asia have to outnumber the natives, in addition to have built in dominant character into the genes, responsible for appearance. You are proposing hybrid theory whereas genes do not always prefer hybrid formation. A marriage between a 5 ft and 6 feet individuals would not lead to 5.5 ft offsprings always. It is highly unilely that the in-migrants outnumbered natives at any stage during the last 3000 years of migration. Such was only possible if invaders or migrants moved some 40-50 thousands years ago to sub-continent. There are many other concerns on this topic which are beyonf the scope of this article.

It is better to describe Punjab as luch vegetation than forest during the old times. The physical geography of the region does not support thick forests with rivers flowing within 100 miles of each other and heavy annual monsoon rainfall. The winter is seldom below freezing and therefore natural flora do not need to be evolved tough and perennial to maximize reproduction. Forest is more likely on Indus pleateau than the semi arid south or rivers fed central Punjab.

Punjabi language has suffered in west Punjab or among Punjabi Muslims but the suffering is not irreversible. Already there are signs, contrary to Romair`s bombshell prediction about the demise of Punjabi on Bulley Shah thread, that a revival is starting to take place. The suffering phenomenon peaked somewhere during 1950s or 1960s and started declinging. Right now Punjabi language is perhaps the largest cultural trend in Pakistan against the spread of Islamic fundamentalism and that bodes well for Punjabi langauge in coming years.