The Tale of Five Rivers

Romair: I have only one word to say concerning Sind: Peccavi!!

ponnyinsilvan #44 Interesting and informative post.

HP #47

On those verses:
Chahar chowdry pewan bethe (Four chowdry started smoking or sat down to smoke)
Moochan Jal gain Sari (burnt their mustache)
Bara sahib kaa bangle jal gaya
Maal luta sarkari.

Clearly urdu. panjabi would be something like:

chaar chowdry maran sootay
tay saar dittiaN muchhaN
wadhay baoo di kothhi sar gai
maal lutya sarkari

It makes as much sense in panjabi as in urdu (i.e. zilch). ;-)

Why had Baba Nanik Quran Written all over his Chola(Garb)? it is called ``Chola Nanik Sahib``

If Mr. Nazir Khan knows about this, please share.

Thanks.

re:#2 by Gandiv

``The word ``Punjab`` can be broken into ``Panch`` + ``Aab``. ``Panch`` means five in Sanskrit, ``Aab`` means water in ``Persian``, so it seems to be confluence of two cultures. ``
The word ``ab`` may have been derived from the sanskrit word ``abdhi`` which means ``sea or ocean``. So huge was the confluence of Indus and the 5 rivers that the early settlers deemed it a sea or an ocean.
Sridhar

re: Why languages become extinct; sanskrit: a case in point
This website tells about major laungages spoken today, majority being in Asia
http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/distribution.asp
And, every day some language is becoming extinct:
http://www.ethnologue.com/nearly_extinct.asp
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0202/130.html

Most of the languages used pre-10th century are extinct. Many have evolved into the modern day languages. Some common ones you see are Pali, Ardha-Magadhi, Peisachi etc that are no longer in use.
http://www.censusindia.net/cendat/language/language_data.html
Some other website claims that out of 418 languages in India 407 are extant and 11 are extinct.
Is sanskrit an extiinct or dead language then? Not per the census of India. Last heard, about 50000 people are known to speak that language! It still is taught in academic institutions. One person i know is trying to revive the language:
www.sanskritbharati.com

Sankrit was the literay lanugage for many centuries. It had the same status as English has in today`s world. Educated people learnt that language. North and South Indian could talk to each other only thr` sanskrit (today, English has taken that place).
Why did sanksrit lose its status?
The following article tries to answer that question:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2173400.stm
Sridhar

re:#44 by ponniyinselvan
I share your sentiments. I too am a Tamilian who grew up in Delhi (so speaking Hindi was never a problem for me!) and now live in USA. I learnt Tamil because my parents had the good sense to send me to a Tamil medium school. For this, i am eternally greatful to them. If one has not learnt one`s mother tongue well, one has not lived. That`s how i see it.

Having lived in the north, i have seen many second and third generation Tamilians grow up and blend into the ``north indian`` culture without any problems. I see bengalis, Gujaratis, Punjabees all conversing with each other in Hindi even in US (as u also rightly observed). One thing that is lacking is their understanding of ``what lies south of the Vindhyas``.
Most North Indians are woefully ignorant of the South and its culture. Today, when North Indian culture is fast blending into Bollywood culture, which in turn is a poor copy of Hollywood, a time will come when Indian culture will become synonymous with South Indian culture.
When i see a Tamil movie, i see people dressed up in traditional dresses. Most of them speak Tamil while most Bollywood actors/actresses speak a concoction of Hindi and English, which sounds very funny.
Having said this, i will say that that while i agree Tamil is old enough to be called Classical, the way it is spoken today leaves much to be desired. Tamils do not speak their own language well. I was doing my PG studies in Madras for 3 years and learnt the finer nuances of that language. What i found disturbing was Tamil was NOT spoken the way it is written. There is a lot of distortions that need to be discarded. It should be made to sound better. Remember how Shivaji Ganeshan spoke Tamil. Few speak that way now-a-days.
If u meet Northies that are ignorant about Tamil, u need to educate them. Their ignorance of South is just unbelievable!
Finally, i will end by saying that a language is just a means of communication. Let us not give it more life by making it a political or religious tool. For me, it does not matter how u say it whether in Tamil, Urdu, Sanskrit or English, u should say it well and that is all that matters.
Sridhar

ponnyinselvan #44 The ``danger`` is not from Hindi,it is from English.Hindi itself is not in a very good state. I dont think any culture,not even tamil, can afford to say no to English right now.IMO the three language formula does make sense,though it should be implemented on North Indian Hindi speaking belt as well.The assimilation should not be one-sided. This is the correct way to ensure nationalism,not by pushing a language down the throat of someone. As for the domination of English,I would think it is too late to do anything about it.
Talking about people from different states talking Hindi,for one it tends to be the language of choice in cross cultural situations,because Hindi is an easier language to learn for most Indians as compared to English. But it still is the exception rather than the rule to prefer Hindi above their mother tongue within families.Besides,there is a thriving literature and entertainment industry in every vernacular language and they are taught in schools as well.
So there is no danger of any of them dying,at least not any time soon.

Rizwan#21: Guru Nanak went to Baghdad. True. He might have gone to Mecca also as some references tell but Mecca was open to all until few hundreds years ago when only Muslims could enter now. During his stay in Bagdad, he had discourses with local sufis and faqirs. On his departure he was presented a chola with qoranic verses on it. He took the chola in the spirit of interfaith friendship. No different than a Sikh giving a book or holy script to a visiting Muslim friend. That does not convert him to Sikhism.

This chola controversy is typical of Mullah mindset. In Mullah mind a non-muslim is not supposed to take a Islamic gift from a Muslim...why? because a typical mullah minded person won`t take a non-Islamic gift from a non-muslim. For him it is black and white with no shade of gray...if one accepts an Islamic gift from mullah, he must be praising Islam and falling on his knees to convert. hence Nanak going to baghdad and Mecca, talking to Sufi saints and accepting chola with Qoranic text on it is a proof that nanak was kneeling before the mullahs in appreciation to be converted. Typical bullcrap.

satyamvada #21
Kabir has criticised priests mullahs and caste systems,and you can find reference in the link given by pmishra2.Though his major and most beautiful work is as a nirgun bhakt poet of bhakti kaal, he was a heretic and spoke against ritualism in both Hinduism and Islam. What is the link with communism?
As of Indian spiritual tradition, Kabir was a nirgun panthi,stating that God is formless and did not believe in idol worship.That sort of belief is part of Indian spirtitual tradition and Hinduism,but IMO,and whatever limited understanding I have of Kabir, he was a heretic here as well.

click From Jinnah`s collection in his own handwriting
Money lost--nothing lost.
courage lost--someting lost.
honour lost--most lost.
soul lost--all lost.

---

Dutch Proverb.

Did someone lose anything? Can it even be retrieved? Does CHOWK staff has it?

It is never too late.

There are at least 4 major and 4 minor trends catching up in Punjab. Some of them tough contradictory to each other are yet complemetary to the revival of Punjabi language/ The four major ones are: 1) Interest in Sufism and Sufi poetry for centrists and right of center: 2) Promotion of Panjabi language and related issues by left-of-center groups like World Punjabi Conference; 3) Coming to age of Punjabi music and in many respect winning the hearts of younger generation; 4) a recoil reaction to spread of Islamic fundamentalism as well as a late reaction to the carnage of partition which is now viewed regrefully.

The four minor trends are: 1) Large diaspora influencing the mindset back home. The liberal environment abroad has given chance to think independent of Pakistan and Islam and identification with Punjabi identity has social benefits in large Punjabi communities in Britian, USA and Canada; 2) Thaw in India-Pakistan relations; 3) Better means and more freedom to express, such as electronic media; 4) Constantly bombaring in the media about every other ethnic type of nationalism except Punjabi. Finally some have stated to look inward out of ego.

Most of these trends can not be reversed easily by the government of Pakistan even if they wish. As you can see all of the factors, major and minor are anthema to Islamic fundamentalism. Sufism, Punjabi music and left-of-center intelligentia are able to propagate not only easily but able to rope in both chief ministers of Punjabs to the last WPC meeting in Lahore.

Musharraf himself is sailing in Safeena-e-Jat these days. He is totally dependent on Jats in Punjab for governance. You must understand Jats mentality here. For a beginer, they choose to be chief minister of Punjab than prime minister of Pakistan because they consider it more important. Through long history, they have contributed to Punjabi culture, though mostly from Sikh Jats. They have not produced any famous Urdu literary figures, nor did they produce any major religious Islamic scholar or famous mullah. Does this say anything which could be taken as less interested in Islamic fundamentalism? They are not against Islam but not interested in losing political power and handing it to Islamists, mullahs and findamentalists. Name any Jat name of significant political power in JI, JUI, SSP, JUP, LT, HeM etc? Here is the largest single tribal identity of Pakistan but not one name in these groups. Sure, they are feudal and dont have much history of peomoting Punjabiat than themselves but Punjabi language enhances their stature, so they are likely to back it or accept it.

Punjabiat or promotion of Punjabi language by its nature is regional - among Punjabis only. That is in contrast with Muslim unity and Ummah concept right from get go. The religious literature in Punjabi is not available even for the beginers in madrassah system. Mullahs are not quick to change and any imposition of Punjabi in the state and linked with zakat funds distribution will bar most of the madrassahs from getting any money from Zakat fund. Punjabi will hurt madrassah system just like Sindhi has. That is why only few madrassahs exists in interior Sindh.

The easiest way to write books in Punjabi right now are translaing books from gurmukhi script to Roman or Arabic script. That is what has started to happen and this is defintely a trend against Islamic fundamentalism. Only Islamic stuff of late in Punjabi is actually quranic translation by Shareef Kunjahi which is availabe for readers at www.apnaorg.com. If there is less books written in Punjabi, then there are even lesser books on Islam in Punjabi. Those who wish to read would not find much to read about Islam in Punjabi compared to Sufis, poetry and fiction. All knowledge of Islam in Punjab comes from books written in Urdu, Persian or Arabic.

Rising literacy level is like rising tide which would lift all boats. Linking rise in literacy level with the decline or demise of the language of more than 100 million people was most bizzare statement I have read in a while. Just take chowk where most people are more than average literate. How many people have openly declared to denounce and abandon Punjabi language for good against Punjabis who have freely chosen to write Punjabi in Roman alphbets like English with never having ever written in Arabic lexicon? Right now, on chowk writing Punjabi in Roman lexicon is almost equal to writing Roman Urdu. Punjabis, growing up in Karachi for all thier upbringing are even happily writing in Punjabi whenever they feel like it. Literate ladies with education from Kinnaird, with MDs and with Ph.Ds are not shying away from expressing in Punjabi writing. It is basically high school level literete who prefer to speak Urdu only because that is the only thing which distinguishes them from illiterate masses. As they move beyond high school, English becomes more important in professional and vocational education leaving Urdu-Punjabi distinction behind. More educated is actually more open to speak and write in the language of choice because medium of expression no longer makes the difference between him/ her and the rest. Most of the promoters of Urdu language are right now well-educated professionals and literati. Similarly the most ardent supporters of Sindhi language are most educated Sindhis and not some illiterate haris or villagers.Education and literacy brings awareness as well as confidence, both of which can not go against cultural heritage for no obvious reason.

Actually more than writing, latest research suggests that survival of a culture (language is biggest part of culture) depends on women of that ethnic group. Women are the embodiment of a culture and they are responsible to pass it on to next generation. If Punjabi women are speaking and writing in Punjabi, number of books published is less important. Anyway, people spend most of their time talking than reading. What are Punjabi women gonna do if they dump Punjabi for Urdu? What would be marriages like where women sing and dance for hours or couple of days and have so much folk poetry to sing that no song could be repeated for singing for 2 days. You cant substitute such a vast reservoir of entertainment on one of happiest occasion for two songs, ``sarota kahan bhool aaye`` and ``meri bannu ke abba ka bara bara bangla``. What has sarota got to do anyway in Punjabi culture? Do you think men will stop dancing to the beats of drum after reaping the rabeeh crop (Vasakhi) and instead start listening to ghazals by Mehdi Hasan and Munni Begum once literacy level goes up? Ghazal has never been associated with mass celebrations even in Urdu culture.

Urdu language is an Urban language and detached from the land. It is more attached with human spirit, deep thinking and romance. Basically languages develop over time and in-line with conditions and environment. Even accents develop for same reasons and not due to the work of some writers, seers or leaders. If a place has too many camels, camel and related words would be in abundance. Urdu and Punjabi will not develop 20 different words for panda because it is not native. Punjabi has developed words for things commonly used in Punjab, the seasons, the land, rivers, rainfalls etc but not about tundra, steppes and rhinos etc. Urdu also has developed words which were commonly used by people who spoke Urdu. Since Urdu did not develop in rural villages, it lacks expressing rythms of rural life.

After going all through it, I am still doubtful that Romair would be convinced that promotion of Punjabi language is an antidote to Islamic fundamentalism in Punjab. What else can I say about Urdu`s linkage to Islam than TNT, making it national language of Pakistan and before than Punjabi Muslims adopting it more than Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs, Urdu speaking Indian Muslims voting for Muslim league on the basis of TNT more so than Muslims belonging to rest of ethnic groups of todays India, Urdu speaking Indian Muslims even today are more Islamic than say Keralite Muslims in expressing resentments and disagreements with Hindus, Bangladeshis not showing the kind of fundamentalsit tendencies Pakistanis are showing, most of the Syeds and other individuals with Arabic ancestry are found among Urdu speaking.....need I give more examples? Anyway, thanks to all who read my previous post and posted comments.

tahmed #50

That was actually Kharhi booli. (clean/Saaf or may be standing! language! literary).
You need to sing it to enjoy it. The Punjabi translation was good.
Now how about this:
I learned this in a village 30Km from Delhi and close to Ghaziabad.

Urray uoo khait main koon barr riya, (Hey! who is going in the farms)
Ghhair liyo raa ghhair liyo- (surround him now!)

…and that was me!

Various

All the criticism is well taken. Most of it is valid. Just goes to show how little some of us like me know about our basics. I put it down because I found it interesting. Basically, it is a case of pleading the cause of Punjabi in Pakistan along with other mother tongues and Urdu and English.

This is Khuswant singh`s version of ancient Punjab and evolution of Punjabi language which is universally accepted and considered authentic. Then there is an interesting linkage between the Bhakti and Sufi and commonality of their philosophy. And Punjabi being a language of the saints for pleading the cause of the oppressed masses.

SameerJB - As always, your views on this subject carry all the weight. The title should have been more restrictive and less romatic. The Punjab around the rivers was forest until the British dug the canals.

This was strictly a non-political article. But viewed from a political glass, it seemed to have something to annoy everybody. This was not intended to demean any person, faith, region or ethnicity. But few a things, not necessarily factualy wrong, might have given that inference.

Omar, Malik99 and Echooboom. I respect your views about the line that `Ranjha was lover of Heer`. I did not consider it materially important or that it made much difference to what I wrote. Or that I could not write it in my own different simple style. Anyway, I apologize. My quest is normally for the ideas/information and not the style. (still want to hang me!)

I think the safe topic left to write is `Rainfall in the Hindu Kush mountains`.

Thanks everyone.

NHk

#48 by Romair
Raja Sahib,
Kiyon hum mawalion say mazaq karta hain? MQM kehan thi 1960 aur 70 main!

I had already admitted that that was a shaky argument. It is really hard to correlate a language with any religion. Except may be Arabic to Islam.

Now that we are on the topic, let me go in a little more details so you have some idea of what I was referring to. Sindhi language movement emerged after the one unit when Urdu became a medium of instruction in govt schools. Sindhi was still taught in schools but up to the 5th grade and after that books were either in Urdu or in English. It was feared that Sindhi would be eventually phased out as the govt policy was to have Urdu as the only national language. Same fears that Bengalis had in 1948.
Sindhi language was a political and cultural issue rather than a religious issue. When Sindhi language movement emerged it was Jamaat Islami that represented the urban Sindh and was making inroads into the rural Sindh. With Language and provincial rights movement in the 60s and the 70s, JI influence in Sindh was reduced to a bare minimum and since then JI has not made any inroads in rural Sindh.
MQM came on the scene around 1982. It did project itself as an Anti Sindhi party. The MQM of that era consisted of JI sympathizers and former Islami Jamiat students. I think Altaf himself was a JI sympathizer for sometime.

Why an avid read like you, comes up with sketchy info about a province in Pakistan? I think the reason is the strict censorship that was the norm under Ayub, yahya and ZAB for almost two decades. That censorship prevented people of other provinces to even know what was happening in neighboring provinces or sometime in the neighboring towns. Both Sindh and Balochistan went thru monumental turmoils during the Ayub, Yahya and ZAB regimes and most of the people in Punjab and NWFP had no idea what was going on there.

It seems on the surface that Sindh is somehow controlled by the feudal or wadera. That is not the case. Sindh has a vibrant middle class and an advanced language that has been the medium of instruction in the province way before the Moghal came to India. Its literature is rich. From Shah abdul Latif and Sachal Sarmast to many other poets have enriched that language even more. Sheikh Ayaz, I hope you have heard his name was a topnotch Sindhi poet in recent times. He was as big as Faiz was in Urdu poetry. Sheikh Ayaz also wrote in Urdu and some of that work was also considered topnotch.

“SHAIKH AYAZ, who died in Karachi on Sunday, 28th December 1997, was a towering figure of Sindhi literature, known and respected nationally and by Sindhi-speaking people all over the world. He was equally acclaimed in progressive circles for his contribution to the advancement of human values. Shaikh Ayaz revolutionised almost all genres of Sindhi literature and is rightfully called the doyen of the 20th century Sindhi writers and poets.”

Here is some for you!

Na taRa tey Tamachi, na Gandria guzara!
aasara aasara, Keenjgara ja kinara!
AJNan runJNan maan raRi achey thee, achey thee,
Mataan eaeney samjheen, moaa mora saara!
ARey he umaraa! moee nahi Makli,
Ayaz aJu watasee, pathara ja panaara!``

In English
``No Tamachi at the water front, neither is Gandari passing by,
Deserted are! deserted are! the banks of Keenjhar after them.
Still the cry comes from the wilderness,
So do not think, dead are all the peacocks.
Oh! here the sun rises! don`t think Makli is dead,
Ayaz! today, I have taken refuge, in the stone bed.``

I hope you have heard of Noori Jam tamachi. It is as big a folk lore in Sindh as Heer Ranjha is in punjab- Noori Jamtamachi is a love story about a hindu girl and a Muslim Raja.
You also might have heard of Sassi Panhu.

Currently, Sindh has almost ten daily newspaper and numerous other publications both monthly and weekly. The largest Sindhi newspaper Kawish (DailyKawish.com),
outsells any newspaper in Pakistan barring daily Jang Urdu from Karachi. Its printing quality is equal to, or better than some of the main publications in Karachi and Lahore. This newspaper is printed from Hyderabad Sindh. The paper is completely composed on computers using the Arabic script. Sindhi uses Arabic script rather than the Urdu script- a legacy of several Arab invasions on Sindh.

I rarely read any newspaper from Pakistan in English or in Urdu. Kawish is my source of news from Pakistan. The quality of news is impeccable and op-ed writers are honest and have acute knowledge of Pakistani issues and problems. Unlike the trash writers we have in most of the Urdu and English newspapers in Pakistan.
If you can read Urdu, with some effort you can read any Sindhi newspaper as they use fairly easy Sindhi.
You will rarely see any hoarding, neon sign or advertisement in Urdu in rural Sindh. If you wanna sell stuff out there you better advertise it in Sindhi. Sindh now also has a Sindhi cable channel.

So believe me Sindhi is not going to die nor will Sindh as you wrote on your board.
Neither is Balochi going to die. More about that some other time.

HP #59 Of course you are right - that was kharri boli. It reminded me a bit about the way a ``panipatya`` woman who did housecleaning at my grandmother`s house used to speak. the language sounds really neat. are those verses from amir khusrho, btw? i think he also wrote in this language (aka hindustani).

ally & sameerjb

I spend some time in the UK and all this talk about the revibal of Punjabi amongst Pakistanis in the diaspora does not make sense to me. It s largly the Indian Punjabi Sikhs who keep Punjabi culture alive in the diaspora. Amongst Pakistanis it is Islam first, second and third, with Punjabi regarded as the languaghe and culture of the Sikhs, looked at detrimentally for that reason.

Dulla Bhatti

Great response to that lunatic! :-)