The Tale of Five Rivers

Dear SameerJB
``Name any Jat name of significant political power in JI, JUI, SSP, JUP, LT, HeM etc?``

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-9-2004_pg3_1

``The killing could be related to the internal Gujjar-Jat split in the Dawa party and the fury over the division of assets between the two. The Gujjar faction is led by the old Lashkar-e-Tayba chief, Hafiz Saeed. The Jat faction called Khairun Naas (KN) is led by Maulana Zafar Iqbal who first got put off by Mr Saeed’s alleged nepotism and appropriation of funds. The KN faction is already supposed to be in control of the old Lashkar headquarters in Muridke and Azad Kashmir.``

ralph -- surely even a freak (used because you labelled people asking a valid question along religious lines) such as yourself will know there is a difference between paraphrasing and outright lifting or material word for word -- nothing to do with the disclosure nonsense that youre talking about --

nhk: ``My quest is normally for the ideas/information and not the style. (still want to hang me!) `` -- nazar sahib here your quest seems to have also gone on to the actual words -- im sorry this is plagiarism and what is amazing that the chowk editors do not make any corrections even after it has been detected by some one and pointed out -- the sentences on that link are exact copies -- borrowing ideas is fine nazar sahib but one should at least put them into one`s own words or if one cant do that then at least quote the original author

I don`t know any Punjabi who wouldn`t love his mother tongue but the ``compulsion of history``, as Hanif Ramey coined the term, is compelling Punjab to once again being torn apart. Punjabi, in the past supported Urdu language, and loved it more than their own language not because they found it better than their own but because it made economic sense to them. Historically, Punjabis had more exposure to urdu than other ethnicities, therefore, adaptation was painless. It was also in the interest of elite ruling class to promote urdu as a national language or the language of Muslims so that masses could take pride in learning it. And pride is what all they got and nothing else whereas elite class taught their children English so that they could rule the urdu medium subalterns. And now for a Punjabi, what makes more economic sense is the English language. With the globalized world, English is going to be the local and international language of communication. Anyone not educated in English has no future in the globalized world. But this is treading and trasspassing territory that ruling class traditionally had control over through their aparthied education system. So as a defense mechanism now they have taken up the cause of local long forgotten languages so that they could keep the masses from treading over the territory which used to be theirs. And Professor Samuel Huntington has predicted this phenomenon that when the clash of civilizations will begin - as it already has - the ruling elites of non western civilizations will adopt and push for their local languages whereas subaltern classes will chose to go for English or French or other Western language. So that means a class conspiracy has already begun by ruling elite to keep the masses under their thumb. But Punjabis should know this very well, and keep this in mind that they and their children have no future unless they learn English. It is English English English - I cannot stress it any more. And same advice goes to other ethnic groups as well.

Ranajee #66


Sameer was asking about any prominent Jatts among the Islamic fanatics. You`ve only linked some stupid squabble between petty factions along caste lines. His point is a very valid one. The Islamic fanatic`s leaders in general tend to firstly belong to Syed, Qureshi and other Islamic tribes and then secondly to Kashmiri, Arain and other such castes who have a lot to gain by Urduisation and Islamization. The Punjabi Jatt`s pride and prestige is inextricably linked to Punjab and Punjabiat, not to pan-Islamiat or even to Pakistaniat. Which is why the Jatt Sardars both past like Malik Khizar Tiwana and present like Chaudhry Shujjat Hussain have little interest in matters outside of Punjab.

Rahul_Capri wrote:
``Kabir has criticised priests mullahs and caste systems,and you can find reference in the link given by pmishra2.Though his major and most beautiful work is as a nirgun bhakt poet of bhakti kaal, he was a heretic and spoke against ritualism in both Hinduism and Islam. What is the link with communism? ``

Rahul

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can you give me the actual reference verses that Kabir has written to criticize mullah`s or pandits ? I went through the link and could not find anything !

Also - what do you mean he was ``heretic`` ? Even the traditional texts say that there is no need of any rites under all circumstances. Sanyasis do not need any rites.
In addition - what is wrong with rituals ? All our present day lives are full of rituals in one form or another ? All the anti-ritual crap is Commie trash. Check to see if Buddhists
(especially Tibetan) dont have rituals or not.

Again, Look up the meaning of the word heretic at www.m-w.com.
The word heretic is for ``religions`` like Christianity, judaism, islam etc.

People like you use words without understanding their meaning. Go to the original writings of Kabir and find out if he was against pandits or not......Dont believe everything that people tell you. Be a skeptic and check things out.

Urstruly #67 ``I don`t know any Punjabi who wouldn`t love his mother tongue but the ``compulsion of history``, as Hanif Ramey coined the term, is compelling Punjab to once again being torn apart.``

Bullshit. Who is going to tear Punjab apart? The Jatt landlords are the irresistable power in Punjab. After lying low for 55 years (after being discredited by Malik Khizar Tiwana and Sardar Sikhanar`s bitter opposition to the creation of Pakistan) Jatt Sardars are back in control. If the ``Jatt league`` decides to give Punjabi its righful place in Punjab who can do anything about it? The Kashmiris? The Arains? The Syeds? The Rajputs? I don`t think so.


``Punjabi, in the past supported Urdu language, and loved it more than their own language not because they found it better than their own but because it made economic sense to them.``

Urdu won its place in Punjab through a mixture of fraud and force. The Punjabi nation has no link whatsover to this languange. It has no special place in Punjab`s culture and history and the sooner we get rid of it the better.

dionysus

But what do jats want? You did not elaborate on that. If your contention is that Jatts are the deriving force behind the cause of Punjabi language, then I seriously doubt it. I also doubt the political clout of Jatts as well. They have political clout on the East bank of Jehlum but not on the west. West is Awan, rajput, and Khattar territory. Similarly, areas south of Sahiwal are also Rajput territory. In the North, Sialkot is Rajput territory. Siraiki belt do not want anything to do with Punjabi language. So that exludes well over 10 million people right there. Zia supported AraiN and araiN`s are basically the constituency of his son. Chowdry`s of Gujrat, the jatts are favored by Musharaf and I do not find any word better than ``tailcoat carriers`` to describe them. I do not think they have it in them to cause a positive social change.

BruceLee #63 It was only a question of time before a CREIP would show up on chowk (CREIP = Chowk Registered Expert from India on Pakistan). To you is assigned the category CREIP #420. (Take that, you ***ing Creep-who-thinks-he-is-brucelee. ha! ha!)

Urstruly #71 ``They have political clout on the East bank of Jehlum but not on the west.``


But just one little thing you forgot to mention here, buddy. The ``East bank of Jhelum``, in other words Central Punjab, contains all the richest farmland in Punjab, most of the industry of Punjab and 80% of the population of Punjab. The ``West`` is basically four sparsely populated disticts Pindi, Mianwalli, DG Khan and Attock and even here we have a big prescence in Attock in the Ghebas and the Khattars.

Southern Punjab contains only about 12% of Punjab`s population. And only a minority, basically hard left intellectuals, support the Siraiki movement. But the Jatt brotherhood will keep the Jatts of Southern Punjab at least within the Punjabi fold and as long as they are what do the rest matter?

You would know all these things if you weren`t so busy learning how bandits and thieves like Sultan Mahmud and Ahmed Shah Abdali and terrorist child murderers like Bin Laden are your heroes..hahahahahahaha

Urstruly #71

Khattars ARE Jatts, Sardar Sikandar Khan was a Khattar Jatt. And Sialkot and Southern Punjab are Rajput and not Jatt???? Pull the other one its got bells on..haha.. That`s the thing about you Paki nationalists your brains are so screwed up with nazria e Pakistan bullshit you don`t even know a thing about the land you live in. You are the same people for whom Sultan Mahmud is a great hero...hahaha


Time for a reality check. Outside of Rawalpindi Rajputs are totally irrelvent in Punjab. And no other quaum in Punjab has anything like the land, power, influence, and sheer numbers of Jatts.

What do we want? We want to wash your pan-Islamic crap and your Urdu crap down the drain and to give Punjabiat its rightfull place in Punjab.

Khattars are jatts? This is a news to me. Sardar Sikandar Hayat and other Hayats of Hasan Abdal are Khattars. It is the same sardar sikandar whom you just despised in your last post for ``oppressing` jatts. Khattars are Pathans originally who settled down in Punjab centuries ago just like Kakezai and popal zai pathans. Like Rohailkhand Pathans of India, they have also lost their mother tongues of Pushto and Dari Farsi to Punjabi and Hindi etc.

If jatts have all the powers as you claim then why are you so mad at me. I do not understand the reason why you have to yell at me either. More power to jatts. The hell I care if they have clout our all Punjab. I, however, seriously doubt that they have it in them to cause a social change even with in themselves, what to talk of Punjab.

Sridhar

IMO language is not merely a means of communication, it is one of the key shapers of our ideas and worldviews.

I am glad Tamil survives and is not threatened in TamilNadu. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in Tamilian history and conceptual scheme that may be harmful to me, a non Tamilian. It`s great poets and authors articulate ideas that resonate well with the musings of sages from other states of India. Culturally it is as authentically Indian as any other. The `conflict` of Tamil language with other languages of India, especially with Hindi - if one chooses to phrase it that way - was about politicial dominance in Tamil Nadu itself. IMO, a healthy state of mutual respect has begun to take shape. So, athough I have no problem with Hindi, as a political matter, I am glad with the way things have worked out.

#75 Urstruly ``It is the same sardar sikandar whom you just despised in your last post for ``oppressing` jatts. ``

Hain? Where did I say that? I said Sardar Sikhandar`s (and Malik Khizar`s) opposition to the creation of Pakistan and partition of Punjab discredited the Jatt Sardars. Sardar Sikandar died. Malik Khizar went into an angry exile and the rest just lied low while for 50 years the Paki nationalists played have with Punjab and Punjabiat. You need to improve your English, as well as your geography, history, philisophy, ethics,........hahahahaha

# 75 76

There are Hindu Khattars as well , I am assuming they are from West Punjab.

# 70

Tiwanas are supposed to be Jatts among the Sikhs.

I belive that since the Indian subcontinent was deeply influenced by invaders and traders from Central Asia/Iran etc., the flow of change seeped into the subcontinent from West to East. This is true for Punjabi which is actually a DIALECT of Hindko which is spoken in more westerly regions and is historically older than Punjabi.
It was the rise of Sikhism and especially during the reign of the great Sikh king Ranjit Singh that the dialect attracted poets and writers making it rich and vibrant and better known than Hindko.

I think the discussion on this thread is quite interesting. We have two threads going (a South Indian thread about Tamil vs. Hindi, and another one on Panjabi culture vs Mullah culture). (We also had a creepy CREIP trying to creep in, but lets hope we can have some more of this discussion before the inevitable degeneration into creepisms).