The Tale of Five Rivers

dionysus

Usually, I hate to get into jatt vs araiN and gujr vs rajput and superior punjabi vs inferior punjabi discussions because it gives me heebee jeebees; and that is the reson I avoid Punjabi discussion boards like plague but I must bring this point to the fore that since na- pak army constitutionally is a political party now (no pun intended) and it is currently the ruling party, therefore, it has the most clout in not only Punjab but the whole country. And majority of the members of this party are from the West bank of jehlum, therefore, common sense suggests that West has political clout over East. The jatts of east bank are merely underlings, are they not? As a matter of fact for army they are dime a dozen. so any claim that jatts are going to give back punjab what is taken from it is a mere joke - a sad joke.

And frankly, despite being a Punjabi myself, which I am quite ashamed of by the way, it saddens me to see the state of mind of Punjabis with respect to their relationship with na-Pak fauj. They know very well that it is this fauj who lost half of our country because of their meddling with constitutional affairs and politics of the polity and their incompetence and cowardice in battlefields and yet they speak no word about them. Isn`t it punjabi army that is currently waging an attrocious war on citizens of Pakistan with gunship helicopters and guided missiles. Where is a voice from Punjab. Isn`t it Punjabi army who has denied the constitutional rights of other provinces with their guns. Where is voice from Punjab. Punjab was silent when madarchod faujis were giving away half of our to country to buniya on a platter and Punjab is silent now when they have turned our country into imperialists` underling. So these Punjabis, devoid of any shred of self respect and dignity desreve what they have got. They deserve to be stripped off their mother tongue. They deserve to be the most hated people in the country. They earned it. How on earth the people who have no respect for their country and for their fellow human beings can claim to revive a dying language? Excuse me, I do not buy crap, no matter how loud you hawk.

Sindhi , written in arabic script , has retained its pride and has produced L.K.Advani. So this dream of fundamentalism making room for bhaanD-bhanGRRa hedonism is a drain-pipe dream.

Panjabi survived by keeping the arabic/farsi script. Most `literature` until last century is in Urdu. (I have some of Bhai Veer singhs writings). The greatest `damage` was done when gurmukhi (to make it non-muslim) was adopted. The cultural chasm between Panjabis was set. This is why no other province in Pakistan has this `confusion`.

Co-opertaing with every rising sun ( today it is Mushharraf; there was sindhi Bhutto, arain Zia, afghan yahya, pathaan ayub, Begali Sikander, etc etc) and lota-cracy is a hallmark of this region. No other province excels at this. Adjustment, pragmatism, maujaaN-karo is the defining characteristic of the Panjabi Muslim ( even Iqbal wrote that). `` Oye Ghairat aanee janee shai vay, bunday nooN dhit honaa chaeeda aye`` was recently exhibited with such adeeda-dlairee right here.


Bengalis, bright & proud people that they are, retained the script. The bengalis, mashallah, are far more fundamentalist, God-fearing, and learning oriented in all-fields than those weaned on Sikhaa-shahi Chhitrauls and are still fomenting the memories for the ``good-old-days``.

All:

Good to have input from the Great Frontier Province of Pakistan (from zeejah) as well on the language issue. If we are to consider where languages came from, we must start at the beginning.

Thus, mankind (homo sapiens) are believed (based on extensive evidence from east africa and georgia in particular) by now almost certain to have spread in this manner: out of africa, to the regions around the Caspian Sea area, and from there to India, China, Europe - and further on to the americas, australia. If one assumes this to be true (and by now it is almost certain to be the case), then it logically follows that ALL indian languages have probably came either via the north-west (which you as a NWFP person proudly note) or via the south-west (mekran coast perhaps). This was the pre-historic wave, which would include dravidian people.

Next would be the more familiar wave of invaders from the north-west (starting in the millenia preceding Christ and continuing until a few centuries ago. These would be ALL indo-aryan languages, including sanskrit (which clearly preceded panjabi) and Old Panjabi. These invasions took place between the time of christ and around 5 AD, which was the time the scythians and other tribes (including ancestors of most modern day panjabis - jats, gujjars, arains) came to india.

So: coming to your point about whether hindko came before other panjabi dialects - it would seem in fact to be the other way around: since (assuming the principle of FIFO - first in, first out), the earlier invaders would have moved further south and were replaced by tribes that came later, one would expect dialects spoken in south panjab, sindh etc. to predate those in northern panjab and NWFP. Arab and persian and turkish influences (which led to the development of urdu from what used has been variously called kharri boli, hindustani, or old panjabi) would thus have come about five centuries after. (Hindi was then created artificially on top of urdu by hindu nationlists who came into being during the waning days of the british raj).

At least this is the logic that makes sense to me. Being in the company of people more knowledgeable than myself, I would be pleased to see what you think - or would care to add to or change from the above description of how languages developed in the subcontinent.

Uurstruly:

What snake oil are you selling now?

``Punjab was silent when madarchod faujis were giving away half of our to country to buniya on a platter``

It was the Pakistan Army that faught India in 1971 trying to keep your country together. It was the Sindhi crook Bhutto who created the situation in the first place. You have the tendency to view all history from your personal lens. God knows I am no fan of the Pak Army which is a big parasite to your country. But to blame 1971 debacle on the Army is wrong. It was your civil politicians and their inability to share political space that led to your debacle.

And the only politician of note imprisoned by your Na Pak Fauj is a Punjabi. The politician who tried to make a comeback and was hurriedly put in another plane and sent back was a Punjabi as well. The ruler of Pak on the other hand is a bonafide Delhite. The one who never suffered chtirol under Sikhshahi etc etc.

#80 tahmed32
“We have two threads going (a South Indian thread about Tamil vs. Hindi, and another one on Panjabi culture vs Mullah culture).”

I am really sorry for this poking of my nose into a Punjabi board. I thought of showing a similar example from India. I hope you will forgive me if I make some more comments on the Tamil thread, now that I am the culprit who started it.


#45, 77 Ralph
“are you suggesting that Tamil has a similar status in India as does Punjabi in Pakistan? :)”

“Culturally it is as authentically Indian as any other.”

Tamil does not have a similar status in India, as does Punjabi in Pakistan. I think it is in a much better position. It does not have the misfortune of a mother abandoned by her own children, which is happening in West Punjab. What Tamil is facing could be compared to Sindhi at best. Why I brought Tamil issue was just to highlight the commonality of problems facing the native languages of Indian subcontinent, which are usually referred to as “vernacular” and “regional” languages. If the Hindi-speakers realize how true your second statement is, this will not be an issue at all. It is true that Tamil is in a quite safe and dynamic position now. Thanks for showing a genuine understanding.

#52 rsridhar

“Is Sanskrit an extinct or dead language then? Not per the census of India. Last heard, about 50000 people are known to speak that language!”

If we see technically, that is, if the purpose of a language is to communicate, Sanskrit is a dead language indeed. The census figure of Sanskrit speakers is due to the Sanskrit –lovers who want to revive it. When Indian Punjab was divided according to the language, Haryana Hindus who spoke Punjabi mentioned their language as Hindi, to save their areas from being included into the predominantly Sikh state. This phenomenon will explain the number of Sanskrit speakers in the census as well. However, Sanskrit is still being used in thousands of temples across the country. Even if is not living, it does exist in daily life.

#58 rsridhar
“What I found disturbing was Tamil was NOT spoken the way it is written. There is a lot of distortions that need to be discarded. It should be made to sound better. Remember how Shivaji Ganeshan spoke Tamil. Few speak that way now-a-days.”

This is not a drawback, I suppose. It is not unique to Tamil. Diglossia is a socio-linguistic phenomenon where there is a divergence of spoken language from the literary language (not simply the casual- proper forms). It is seen in many languages including Tamil, Kannada, Greek, and a lot of others. Moreover, Sanskrit became extinct only because it was elitist and literary. Prakrit, Pali and Ardhamagadhi became different languages because Sanskrit became a “Deva Basha” when these were called “Neecha Basha”. The growth and dynamism of a language lies with the common people who speak it, aided by the literary reference which helps preventing a degeneration.

“……I agree Tamil is old enough to be called Classical.”

This is a very grey area in linguistics. I had a correspondence with many linguistic scholars (I being a layman), and they say that there are no set criteria for a language to be called classical. The commonly accepted criteria are: 1. The language should be ancient 2.It should have a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature 3.Such literary tradition should have been independent, indigenous and original 4.It should have given rise to other languages and 5.Controversially, it should be extinct.

How ancient? Probably “ancient enough”. How enough? No answers. Because, many languages like Albanian and Scandinavian languages are older than the classical Tamil, Sanskrit, Greek, Latin etc. Arabic is not old enough, as even Indian languages like Kannada are older than that. So, the second, third and fourth criteria are more important in calling any language classical, together with an “adequately” ancient origin. The fifth criteria, which is not usually accepted, will dequalify Tamil and Arabic from being classical languages.

”If u meet Northies that are ignorant about Tamil, u need to educate them. Their ignorance of South is just unbelievable!”

I don’t wish to do that anymore, as I always end up in a bitter state of mind, called variously as chauvinist, fanatic, frog-in-the-well, British spy, unpatriotic and what not. An ignorant fellow is blissful in his argument because he thinks he has cornered the opponent, and the one who knows fails because he knows his point is valid, but not taken.

#57 rahul_capri
“IMO the three language formula does make sense, though it should be implemented on North Indian Hindi speaking belt as well. The assimilation should not be one-sided. This is the correct way to ensure nationalism, not by pushing a language down the throat of someone.”

“there is a thriving literature and entertainment industry in every vernacular language and they are taught in schools as well.”

I cant agree more with you regarding the three language formula. It was meant to integrate the country by cultural exchange via language. However, it became a one-sided affair. South Indians are asked to learn Hindi, but Hindi-speakers usually learn Sanskrit, not any Southern language! Nationalism seems to flow one way. Regarding the thriving literature: true. Entertainment industry in other languages? I don’t think so except in Tamil and Telugu.

#85 by stuka
Stuka,

I thought that was tongue in cheek…but turned out that was the shallowest post by you ever…
The politician in Jail for the last eight years is a Sindhi… both Punjabi leader and Delhi leader were/are terrified to let him go.
That men is Zardari; but then he lost his marbles a longtime ago…

echoboom: Yea, Tagore is being taught to bangali kids in school, i heard. (Mashallah and Subhanallah and all the other praises to the godess of mecca Al-Laath on that one)

satyamvada #68
``can you give me the actual reference verses that Kabir has written to criticize mullah`s or pandits ? I went through the link and could not find anything !``
Please,look again.Did you just look at the home page?
``Again, Look up the meaning of the word heretic at www.m-w.com.
The word heretic is for ``religions`` like Christianity, judaism, islam etc.``
Please, look again.
So, just for the sake of clarity, I would like to repeat,you have to look for where Kabir has criticised Mullahs and pandits;and you have to look for the (alternate)meaning of the word heretic.
`` Be a skeptic and check things out.``
ha ha ha

HP #62: Thanks for the informative post, as usual. Your knowledge of Sind and SameerJB`s knowledge of Punjab is quite amazing. As is Naqshbandis` knowledge of Islam. Unfortunately, the later two (Sameer and Asif) tend to become very illogical if they are commenting on issues they emotionally like or hate. Specifically those related to their understanding of Islam.

I realize MQM arrived in eighties. Which is when the maulvis started to lose in urban Sind. Which was my whole point.

Other than that, my point was not to put down Sindhi or Punjabi culture. As you have clearly pointed out, my knowledge of Sind and Baluchistan is limited. It is very academic. I have never been outside of Karachi. And I have spend only three days of my life in Baluchistan. My knowledge on that area is through statistics and reading.

I have, however, spent most of my teenage years and all of professional career in Pakistan, in the boondocks of rural Punjab and NWFP. So I do have practical experience in that area. The biggest Punjab city I ever worked in was Sargodha. All others very tiny.

Here is my take on languages:

I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive. That is the most progressive and easiest way for a society to advance. I am totally against pushing ancient languages for retrogressive nationalistic reasons only. It leaves societies way behind others. And usually serves only the interests of the few. If you see the people pushing Punjabi in Pakistan (and maybe even Sindhi), you will notice that they, themselves are well connected to English and Urdu and quite well off. However, they want the peasants to be bound to Punjabi medium education, to satisfy their own nostalgia. Why don`t they send their own kids to Punjabi medium schools in Kasur, and not Englislh medium schools in Clifton and USA?

I still think Punjabi (and Sindhi and Baluchi) are dying (in Pakistan) and will die someday, if they are allowed to follow the natural course of evolution in Pakistan. Only Sikhs will keep it alive, due to religious reasons. The reasons are simple. People, specifically poorer ones, will always prefer langauges that allow them to move up the economic ladder quickly. The more written content in the fields of science, art, politics, history etc. that is available in a language, the more economically powerful it will be.

This is why the Punjabi peasant wants to learn Urdu. And the Urdu peasant wants to learn English. What exactly can anyone do in the world with a Masters degree in Punjabi? Where will he get a job? Does it make sense for Pakistani universities to spend their already meagre resources in turning out Punjabi graduates? Obviously not.

If people really want to make Punjabi stay, they need to make it economically attractive. Not by saying it will increase or decrease religion and extremism. To do that, they need to start translating science and other books into Punjabi. How long will that take? And who is willing to do it?

How much did our Punjabi speaking ancestors leave behind in written Punjabi? What to talk of science, there isn`t even much poetry in Punjabi, in comparison to other languages. Bulleh Shah barely wrote anything. How many centers of academic excellence etc. did Punjab produce, where Punjabi was the medium? How many contributions in medicine are there in Punjabi? What about philosophical and artistic masterpieces? Compare that to what is avaialble in English, or Arabic, or now even in Urdu.

For any language to survive in the long run, it needs an overwhleming amount of content to dominate its competitors. These langauges survived historically because communities were cut off from each other. Was Bulleh Shah exposed to French and English? He would have easy access to it today. Now with the global village, people need to standardize more and more on a lower number of langauges. This attracts people to the langauge which gives them the most liberty of movement. In Pakistan, that is Urdu. In the world it is English.

This also kills all other languages that only have local importance.

If we started translating everything into Punjabi today, it would take over sixty years to just get to the level where Urdu is today, in terms of sceintific and other content. What to talk of English. Will anyone ever do that? And what purpose will it serve, other than satisfying some rich folks` nostalgia and nationalistic ideas. By that time, with the literacy rate going up, the Punjabi peasants will have already been educated in Urdu, and Urdu (and English) will be a furthur sixty years ahead.

Punjabi has lost out in the battle of languages. It, itself, must have beaten out other languages, in the Punjab area, earlier. If we are so hung up on nationalism, then why stop at Punjabi? Why not go back to the langauge preceeding it in Punjab? Or back to the cavemen days, and communicate through sign language and grunts?

Pakistan has its hands full with graduating people with madrassah degrees, who are unemployable. The last thing it needs is graduating even more unemployable kids with Punjabi degrees and medium of education, who will have no content to study beyond Bulleh Shah.

Sticking to Punjabi, when the rest of the world is moving onto English and Mandarin (two most powerful languages of the emerging century) is like a country sticking to the tonga, while the rest of the world is moving onto bullet trains, just because its leaders like the clic-clac noise of the horse`s hoof.

More on Sindhi and Baluchi later. Though my knowledge in that area is only from a distance.........

P.S. This does not mean we whould not study the history or culture of Punjab. We should study it in langauges, which give us economic clout in the local and global society. Which is why I have started translating Punjabi material............

re: ponniyinselvan # 87

``When Indian Punjab was divided according to the language, Haryana Hindus who spoke Punjabi mentioned their language as Hindi, to save their areas from being included into the predominantly Sikh state.``

In general, I have really enjoyed your posts but I think the above statement is not exactly right. It is true that Punjabi Hindus in Haryana put down their mother tongue as Hindi in the census, but I think it is for reasons other than being included ``into`` a ``predominantly Sikh state``. According to Patwant Singh, the Sikh author, it is probably the first time that a minority (the Sikhs were a minority in the the entity/province before its partition ) campaigned to keep the state together. As against the normal trend of a minority campaigning ot break off.

If the partition of the province had been avoided then, the state would have been more diverse with significant # of non-Punjabi paharis, gujars etc. The partition of the province was seen as a betrayal by Punjabi-lovers and romantics would wanted a kind of pseudo-Akhand Punjab. These romantics can be found every now and then who speak of the glory days of Punjab when Punjabi was understood by almost the whole of North India, including in Rajasthan. In any case, the hatred of the Hindus (especially of the Punjabi variety) that is commonly found in expatriate Sikhs can be traced back to this time of partition of the state.

As a corollary, if this post-independence partition had been avioded, the Sikh dharma itself would have been protected from some psycho Jat Sikhs who hijacked the religion and the province in the years to come. Diverging Sikh voices would not have been drowned in the voice of the gun that devastated a generation in a Sikh-majority Punjab. A larger province would have meant more bargaining power with the center and it would not have been seen as purely a ``border state`` that needed to be ``managed``.

regards,

Kabuli

rahul_capri...

Instead of giving me exact references - you want to just say ``look again`` : )

My friend, all I can say is go to the library and get a book of Kabir`s compositions
(or through inter-library loan) and read it yourself. Read multiple interpretations,
and then come to a decision.

The internet is not a substitute for real scholarly effort.

Romair, how is your Punjabi speaking representative doing in Canadian parliament?....oh I forgot he represents only Canadians..too bad.


I think all things, including languages, should compete in the open market, and the fittest should survive.<<

and you idea of ``open market``, and ``fittest competition`` is: enforce Urdu by law and condemn anyone who sticks to his mother language...you got a very fair and balanced system going on.


I am totally against pushing ancient languages for retrogressive nationalistic reasons only.<<

so now Sindhi, balochi and Punjabi are ancient languages? ``retrogressive nationalistic reasons``? you got to define that dude...urdu is the ``retrogressive nationalistic`` language being pushed down people`s throats. You are kind of funny.

if they are allowed to follow the natural course of evolution in Pakistan. <<

natural course?


If people really want to make Punjabi stay, they need to make it economically attractive. Not by saying it will increase or decrease religion and extremism. To do that, they need to start translating science and other books into Punjabi.<<

I gues you did all your scientific education in urdu through translated books. right? If nto why test Punjabi for that? all native lanuages including hindi and urdu are handicapped in sciences and many other subjects. I don`t know anyone who did his engineering and medical education in a local language. do you?


What do people with Masters in urdu and hindi do? Punjabi graduates will do the same. Language graduates usually work in publishing nad government....

also studying Punjabi and giving it a priority does not mean everyone hs to do masters in Punjabi...people shoudl study sciences and medical subject in english(as they do now). You have a weired lens to view things..either everyone is Masters in Punjabi or everyone leaves it all together.

There is an excellent research article by Prof. Tariq Rehman, titled ``Peoples and Languages of pre-Islamic Indus Valley`` with more than 60 references at

http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/peoplesandlanguages.html

All interested must read it for a better understanding of the origins of current languages of the Indus valley. I tried to post this article here but becasue of its sheer size, it did not appear. Some of the findings are:

I. Most of the languages (Sindhi, Sariaki, Punjabi, Hindko and Kashmiri) of the region developed about the same time.

2. They did not get mentioned in literature because Muslim invaders prefered to call all of them Hindvi. Amir Khusro in 1317 mentioned the language spoken in Lahore as Lahori.

3. All Languages evolved from prakrits.

4. Before destruction of Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro, there was definitely more Dravidian component in the languages of the region than now.

5. Kashmir (during Kushans) and Sindh (during Persian rule) were larger than current sizes, as administrative regions.

6. Pashtuns moved into current NWFP and Balochistan during 16th and 17th century from west (Afghanistan). Balochs also moved in the region from west. Thus before Pashtun and Baloch migrations, Indus was not a boundry between prakrits and Indo-Iranian languages. Prakrits were spoken all the way to Kandhar.

7. Two charts very clearly describe the route these languages took and what influenced them along the way.

ponniyinselvan #87
I think you are right about the entertainment industry.Only Tamil and Telegu have thriving commercial cinema.Is it because of the lack of a big market?Anyways,outstanding movies do get made in other languages as well.Point is,regional languages can coexist with Hindi.
And you know my views already about the three language formula. I personally would have felt lucky to have learnt a more popular language like Tamil Telegu Malyalam Bangla Marathi Punjabi in school instead of Sanskrit.I would perhaps have understood the diversity of India better.

Raw_Dust:
Allow me to burst your bubble of false-expectations from Bangladeshis.

Pre-Islamic poetry especially that of Umr-ulQuais has been a favourite from the prophet`s (pbuh) time to the present day. In all muslim-arab countries pre-Islamic arab poetry is also a must for the curriculum for all..not just literature buffs. Even christians from Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon have been bitten by power & beauty of this language and they do not want any other[ they all told me that]

Just as muslims of Pakistan enjoy themselves to listen to Lata etcs songs but not to express their appreciation for Indian`s occupation for Kashmir. Using western technology is not an endorsement of western `values`. People do things for their own pleasure and not to please or displease `enemies.`

Similarly Tagore is a favourite of Bengalis be they Bangladeshis not. Or are you suggesting that Tagore was a Kaafir? A Brahmu-Samaaj , a fundamentalist believer in non-idolatory, a kaafir? a visitor to the rauzas & maqbraas in iran & Iraq a kafir? the one who had a dialogue with einstein about the essentiality of belief in God a akaafir?

I hope , similarly, Iqbal is being taught to kids in India. No?