Mute Goat Dilemma

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mehreen, i think this is mainly due to sexual frustration in pakistani society although the same problem of male ogling exists to lesser degrees in most countries of the world. i remember naomi wolf the uber-feminist once talking about being wolf-whistled at in the USA and she was mightily pissed off at it too! so it`s not just a pakistani thing but it is exaggerated due to the general sexual frustration....traditionally people were married off as soon as they hit puberty but this is no longer feasible in most cases (or desired ) and so in a strictly conservative society with not much room for letting off sexual steam it leads to such psychological states...been reading Anais Nin`s diaries lately and she talks a lot about psychosexuality....

FOBS do it in the UK conspicuously more than other people and I`m sure everywhere else too...

the solutions? (1) earlier marriage again! (2) abstinence/lowering the gaze (VERY difficult and unlikely to happen!!) as we become a nation of truly pious God-fearing people (3) a permissive attitude to sexual relationships outside of marriage to become the norm in pakistan as it has in europe for example (probably will happen in the next 50-75 years)

one guy at my old uni told me how his cousin in a burkha got her arse pinched at jumah in the Badshahi mosque! I was shocked...

I think a woman victimizes herself if she stays mute on such occasions. I was a karachiite and being one really taught me how to put such pigs in their places. Girls make a mistake if they think dressing in a certain way or wearing less makeup would somehow avert male attention. It happens nevertheless and the only way to handle it is to mouth your annoyance out! Dont care how people might be looking at you and what they might think. Just tell the guy to keep his hands to himself or to stop staring. If that doesnt work then just stare back with twice the intensity haha. No man likes to be stared at by a woman. So far as the auto driver goes...he is getting paid by you to do his job. Just give him a piece of your mind in the way you see best fit. Times have changed grl ... let em hear it when they provoke you. Be it karachi or Los Angeles!

I think a woman victimizes herself if she stays mute on such occasions. I am a karachiite and being one really taught me how to put such pigs in their places. Girls make a mistake if they think dressing in a certain way or wearing less makeup would somehow avert male attention. It happens nevertheless and the only way to handle it is to mouth your annoyance out! Dont care how people might be looking at you and what they might think. Just tell the guy to keep his hands to himself or to stop staring. If that doesnt work then just stare back with twice the intensity haha. No man likes to be stared at by a woman. So far as the auto driver goes...he is getting paid by you to do his job. Just give him a piece of your mind in the way you see best fit. Times have changed grl ... let em hear it when they provoke you. Be it karachi or Los Angeles!

Mehreen good article and you expressed your point quite well.

I had a friend once driving behind a police jeep in a deserted area in Delhi and the cop sitting behind in the jeep was winking at her. So she overtook the police jeep and pulled sharply forcing the jeep to come to a stop.

The inspector sitting in front came to her car to find out what had happened. My friend told him what had happened and demanded the errant cops name. She spoke with tremendous confidence even though she was very scared . First the cops said that some dust particle had gone into his eye and that is why he was winking. When that did not sell they told my friend ` Chota bacha hai janai do na`. So my friend did not pursue the case, but she made her point.

So I think that at times (Not always) it does help to be slightly aggressive, as Martini has stated.

Nice article...anarkali...(...whistle...whistle...) but before you go on about how you get harassed on the streets, take a moment and think about how `eves` also tend to get preferential treatment to their male counterparts in Pakistan. I disagree with ogling at women (of course I do it anyway) but I disagree even more with the special treatment women tend to get when they go to any public place.

Women are experts at complaining. Unfortunately, they tend to be good at little else.

Nuke

Martini`s right. Staying quiet, not going out, not driving, taking the hijab, even, all encourage this sort of behavior by implying that all women who are out there are fair game. The funny thing is, when you actually make a noise about it, all those would-be oglers suddenly turn into enraged older brothers. I have heard many accounts of how the harasser has been beaten or chased off by shopkeepers, bystanders, and all manner of males, and seen it on occasion as well. I think this has to do with the way the injunction to treat all women as ones sisters/mothers interacts with the idea that all women outside their homes are fair game. It`s a contradiction, but if it can be used to get you out of a sticky situation, you may as well use it.

I know what the writer`s talking about though. The constant, incessant staring, ogling, singing, `Mashallah`s, pinching, stalking, and the harassment from other drivers when one is on the road. BUT, the majority will look away or run off if you look them in the eye and indicate or say `what?`. When that fails, drive to the nearest police station or chowkie. That said, policemen aren`t above harassment themselves, so be careful.

A word about self defense. PLEASE visit this site before you attempt to carry knives and things to defend yourselves with. www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
Pepper spray and things that can be used at a distance are more likely to be effective than something you have to use at close range.

A very well-written piece Mehreen.
Women will have to stand up against all this crap. It is women only who can put these men to their senses and thus, staying mum should be the last thing to do. Making a hue and cry over an incident of any sort may seem embarrasing but its about time women do this so as to make these men realize that we`re not going to take any sort of shit from them.
So ladies, next time a guy does or says something to you, hit him with your bag if he`s in close proximity. And if he happens to be on a bike, pick a stone and hurl it at him. Let him rot in the hospital for years.
I just wish we could do this. When all these men will start dying left, right and center, the rest of the male population would get in their right senses too.

chowk staff

aik shareef aadmi ki post reject karte hoay sharam nahin aati?

i wholly agree with martini...keeping quiet or ignoring is definitely not an option...make some noise/action..and dont give a damn whether it attracts the whole world or anything..like one of my friend`s college-going cousin was being touched and fondled continuosly from the back while travelling in a bus..so she very calmly took out her pencil box and took the compass out from it and pierced it into the palm of the person..well anyways..verbal or physical..action had to be taken..have to remind them that we arent some mechanical creatures who dont feel a thing.

mehreen ali bhen ji aap chowk staff walon ka burra mat maniyay

good article..we were discussing this in office today, incidentally...one of my female colleagues said that whenever someone teases her on the road, when she`s driving, she creates such a scene, that people not only get shocked but run away, fearing for their lives..she`s like if someone curses me, i curse twice as loudly and brutally...very gutsy...but anyhow, i don`t know how MUCH you can do that..how many times can you curse and how many times can you cause scenes? It`s so annoying and you feel so helpless and such a piece of meat that I really think, short of killing the entire pakistani male population, we can`t do too much. I`m very pessimistic, I know..please tell me if there are any solutions!

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Urstruly is a badmaash...indian villain...ban his arse from the forum altogether I say :-)>. MBZ Isphahanis response made me laugh so hard that i nearly cried...paricularly the last bit...

All 7 of them were wearing earing
giving gayish look physically.

``Suddenly,The Bus stopped.The sikh driver came and said I saw what you
did from hidden camera.I want you out of this bus or I will call the police.
The youth left without even asking refund for the money they just had paid.``

Haha....

good read. very true mostly. the pakistani male population is in a dire situation sadly. and killing off all the pakistani males isnt a good option sobia :) what i would suggest is to educate them. these people who stopped in front of our writer and looked her up, those guys at the bus stops, those people in the bycylcles, those guys at the beach,they arent educated. not to say that educated people dont harass women, just the incidence is way much less. all these uneducated, sometimes jobless, mostly blue collar men, they are all frustrated males, have nothing better to do. when a guy has nothing to do, his most basic male instinct lights up. starts lookoing for females to drag into his cave and reproduce.the modern version of that is checking women out and feeling them up.
ofcourse women arent worth the time our men spend oggling at them and frisking them and harrassing them, but the sad reality is they dont have anything better to do. most of us who write at chowk, interact at chowk, you wont find us fondling women, grabbing ass wagairah. i hope i`m right. i dont anyway. i have tons of better things to do with my time. and why is that? well we have school, we have social events, we mostly have good jobs that keep us busy and we have way better forms of entertainment to keep us occupied.
being vocal about it will help you out at the spot but it`ll happen again. as long as men in pakistan dont have something better to do with their time, they will waste it doing all that ms. mehreen talks about. all that is sadly a waste of time that cant be helped unless the country really gets to its feet and wisks away all these men into demanding skilled jobs and higher education. so stop complaining and stop reproducing like rabbits and pay your taxes. things will work out in thirty years. cheers :)

ahmedm is wadda (big) philosopher.

``most of us who write at chowk, interact at chowk, you wont find us fondling women, grabbing ass wagairah.``

Grabbing ass? WTF? Anyway, I do and I also write at chowk.

``i hope i`m right. i dont anyway. i have tons of better things to do with my time.``

You`re wrong. All STRAIGHT men do it, whether they are pakistani or not. In the west, they do it in places known as nightclubs...but builders (see construction) whistle at women on the street all the time in the West as well...so sort out your facts before you start giving us your take on life.

The better things you do with your time probably include a healthy dose of pronogrphy everyday...thats why you dont oggle at women on the street...not because you are educated...biatch.

``all that is sadly a waste of time that cant be helped unless the country really gets to its feet and wisks away all these men into demanding skilled jobs and higher education.``

You are a loser ahmedm. get a life and stop philosophising...biaatch.

``so stop complaining and stop reproducing like rabbits and pay your taxes. things will work out in thirty years``

Give me your address and I will personally come and beat up your sorry mummy daddy a*s.

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AND it`s not just the `blue collar` majority, either. Try crossing Jail Road or any other main street on foot, morning, afternoon, or night--all those idiots in their shiny cars will speed up and screech to a stop inches from you and then call out all manner of rubbish. One of my friends got slapped across the face by a guy in a pickup while we were standing outside college waiting for the bus.

As for it happening all over the world, it doesn, certainly. But I will add that there is a difference. In New York, at 14, you can get quite an education passing by a construction site, but graphic as what they yell out is, you can laugh it off even if it does gross you out. Here, all the majority does is stare or mutter, but it carries so much more malice. I can`t explain it any better than that, I`m afraid. It may have to do with the idea that your being outside the home here is still not necessarily perceived as a right, while no one will think to question that in NY, no matter what they yell out.

What are womens views on Italian men, specially if they have travelled to Italy ??? Do the men there do `flirting` or is it `eve teasing` or is it just that they are being `charming` and `friendly???

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Well said Nikki. No doubt there`s a problem in insular countries like Pakistan but for f**ks sake give it a rest.

Re:nukecular and nikki

How would you like it if your mother, sister or other women in your family suffer eve teasing? Of course, then you will pick up arms and try to kill the guys who attempt such stuff. If it is someone else`s family, then it is okay? Shame on you!!

All straight men do not do such things. In fact, no real man stoops to the level of insulting and hurting women. It is one thing to be attracted to someone and asking them out in a decent way. It is another thing to grope and molest them in public places. It is only immature perverts who have no capability of actually talking to a woman and having a relationship, that stoop to such tactics. Indulging in such acts DOES NOT mean paying attention. It means criminal behavior which should be punished severely.

First of all Mehreen, I would like to offer you support and sympathy. I too have faced similar situations in India on a continuous basis, like any other Indian woman. I have lived in many Indian cities and the situation is bad, extremely bad in North India, quite bad in East India, simply bad in South India, not so bad in Bombay.

I have also worked and travelled across the world and believe me what we face in the Indian Subcontinent is absolutely terrible. I have not been to Saudi or Iran, but travelled extensively in North Africa as well as Southern Europe (Italy and Greece) and I have never faced anything like it. What sets subcontinental men apart is the hatred and misogyny that I feel Its not just the the touching and groping, which I have never seen anywhere else, but also the feeling that women deserve the humiliation because they are getting too big for thier boots in general. Note the post from Nikki.Nukeclear. Thing is the occasional whistle in other country is crude but good humored, yes we can tell. Can you imagine what would happen if I gave a friendly smile at a eve teaser in India who sang it me or whistled at me. They would NOT smile , they would get more vicious. Obviously it is not about fun or flirting, its a deliberate desire to humiliate and intimidate and feel powerful. I assume that the Muttawwa in saudi are their true spiritual brothers. the mass of Subcontinental men have a problem with treating a woman as a normal human being, with basic dignity and respect. No not all men are like that, my husband is an angel, but I got lucky. Most men get pissed off when they see or hear a confident woman, or just some one who has the guts to complain in public forum. JUST LOOK AT THE LETTERS ON CHOWK IN REPLY TO THIS ARTICLE> one would think all chowkies would agree that women have a tough time with eve teasing and deserve better, but that is not the case. And these are the educated folks with net access!!!

Think about the number of posts that have aready been written criticising the article or its views. Complain. We will complain as Fucking much as as we want to, as long as we have to put up with their shitty behavior. Ask your mum how she feels when she walks down a crowded street-and tell her to stop complaining. fact is , this behavior is faced across the board by all women under 50, regardless of dress and behavior.

Interestingly, I spent many years in calcutta, and Calcuttans believe that their city is civilised. But even there I have seen the same behavior, but what is interesting is that Ina bus when I would yell at someone, I never got any support if I wore jeans or even Salwar kamiz. But I could be quite confident that in a sari my yelling would have the desired effect of getting some support. I believe that the random bus passenger believes that if a woman wears a salwar kamiz she deserves it. If a sari, not so much, but I got harrassed in a sari as much as in jeans or salwar kamiz.

The worst experiences for me are when I meet firan travellers who say that they have been to india. I just shrink into myself, ecause women travellers go through hell in North India. I KNOW it is the worst place in the world fora woman to travel, especially Delhi and North India. Recently some one I know went on a business trip to bangalore and she said she was surprised she was not harrassd because her sister who travelled in North India told her horror stories. Even in most Arab counries if you are normally dressed, i.e jeans and shirt you are very safe. This was almost a shocking discovery for me. My family were and are still horrified that I did so much travelling across the Middle East and they can`t believe that I felt safer in Cairo, Beirut, Casablanca, Tunis, Dubai than I ever did in Delhi or even new York after dark for that matter.

And yelling back very often does not help. It encourages the culprit, passers by do not stop. And by the way are the anti female Chowk writers aware of the great subcontinental elbow trick? Ask your mum or your sister, they will tell you assuming you do not do it yourself.

And finally, Chowk is a place where we vent our feelings about our respective countries. I am sure both Indians and Pakistanis love their countries and feel defensive when a foreigner atacks it. So we should not reduce every article critical of situations in India / pakistan into debate about whether hindus are better than muslims, India better than Pakistan and vice versa. In our hearts we all know the truth , eh?

``We certainly haven’t heard of Adam-teasing, have we?``

You should try stepping outside Pakistan and experience the real world. I can personally think of at least three cases offhand where a girl has grabbed a guy`s crotch either under a table at a bar, or in a club while dancing.

I`m not saying there isn`t a problem in Pakistan but you women need to get off your high horse and stop giving the impression it`s all one-sided - and trust me that`s how it reads.

Mehreen,

Good article. While one can ignore the stares, comments, etc, certain transgressions need to be addressed. There are slimeballs on the NYC subways as well...and usually embarrassing them works-exclaiming if the perp would keep his hands to himself, etc. The compass idea is brilliant.

But then, some of it is how we carry ourselves when we walk. Apparently potential attackers avoid women who walk with their heads up and shoulders back. The more no nonsense you look, the less vulnerable you seem. A martial arts class helps too! ;)

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Ok Let me take a step back here as I haven`t lived much in either Pakistan or India and stories of lecherous pervs are common enough now that we should accept there is some truth to them. Kewlfi here claims that women are safer in Arab countries dressed in jeans and shirts than in North India which I find surprising as I assumed that islamic countries by nature are more censurious.

So while to some extent I can understand the misogeny in Pakistan I don`t get why India suffers from it? Is it something embedded in the culture?

Pakistani women are disgraceful...enough said. they deserved to be harrassed...

Three responses:

Kewlfi,

Hats off to you for not backing down and toughing it out with the harassers. The more we speak up, the more other women will see that they can do it too, and who knows, maybe, just maybe, we`ll get enough women out and visible for our presence to be a given.

SharkO,

Given the current Arab/Muslim image, I can understand why you`d expect Muslim countries to be more `dangerous` places for women. That is not, in fact, the case. While Saudi Arabia does actively enforce its ridiculously restrictive laws regarding women`s movement outside their homes, places like the UAE, Qatar, Oman, Egypt, etc. do not. I do not know what their specific laws are, but I do know that women`s movement is not generally restricted, and it is not uncommon to see people in all manner of dress, from ultra-conservative/traditional to what is generally termed `Western` garb walking around without being harassed.

Muslim countries do not automatically oppress women. A large number do, but then again, many other countries manage to oppress women without the aid of Islam. We need to understand that this oppression is more socio-political than religious, but I suppose that`s a whole other discussion.

and ladies,

AGAIN, while Samina is right in saying that posture and confidence are deterrents, I urge you to check the website I mentioned earlier for a no-nonsense approach to both harassment and the techniques that supposedly `deal` with it.

On a lighter note, here`s a joke.

Two guys whispering to each other pass by two girls standing at the bus stop.

Girl 1 gets curious and asks Girl 2, ``When guys talk, what do they usually talk about?`` Girl 2 says, ``What else? They talk the same things that we talk about``. Girl 1 is shocked and exclaims, ``Sh!t!!!! I never thought guys were so vulgar!!!``.

A CONCRETE CULTURE-APPROPRIATE PROPOSAL

one thing i learned in the us is that if its an issue, get training. e.g. most work-places in us go thru sexual harrassment training. you are shown videos, plays etc of situations of what is sexual harrassment, what is not acceptable and so on.

so i propose that the jammat in pakistan (and in india) should hold classes on gaze-lowering. folks should get trained in a catwalk-type situation with women (and men) in various dresses from scanty to shuttlcock parade, and the trainees pratice gaze-lowering.

personally, i always always dip my high-beam when i see approaching headlights.

:-)

plse check this site and enjoy yrself
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Re: # 32
No, that url will be obsoleted soon. The new one is http://www.frottophilia.com/forum/ and http://www.frottophilia.com/quit/