Cat is Out of the Bag

#42

How does it matter what you THINK?

The FACT remains that Field Marshal S.H.F.J. Manekshaw, Padma Vibhushan, Padma Bushan, MC was COAS, between 07 June 1969 - 15 Jan 1973.

#41 by friend #40 by mohar11

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/2003/04/04/stories/2003040403741300.htm
“Though refusing to elaborate to newsmen here this evening, the Field Marshal in the film said that when Indira Gandhi asked him he had replied ``Madam Prime Minister, don`t you think I would not prove to be a worthy replacement,`` as he asserted that there was no move by the Army to stage a coup.”

Now that is an entirely different quote than what Harish reproduced.

“Madam Prime Minister, don`t you think I would not prove to be a worthy replacement,``

This is more in line with what a General would say to the PM.

Now I think Gen. Maneckshaw was commander Eastern sector from 1969 to 1973 and that’s why he was the hero of the 71 war. I don’t think he was the COAS as friend has pointed out at that time.
I think we need to research it a little bit more. He became COAS after his assignment at the eastern command was over.
Clearly, I was under the wrong impression that conversation between him and Mrs. Gandhi took place right before the emergency.

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HP #39,
``First this exchange actually happened right before the emergency as Sam Maneckshaw was not the CnC right after 71. ``
Sam Maneckshaw was never CnC. In India, President is CnC. Sam Maneckshaw was COAS and later chairman, chief of staff committee.
Sam Manecksaw was COAS from 07 June 1969 till 15 Jan 1973. Emergency got declared on June 26, 1975.

An excerpt from Sam Bahadur`s biography is posted at http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/2003/04/04/stories/2003040403741300.htm

#39 by HP

Well - from what I know - Sam Maneckshaw was very popular at that time and Indira was very apprehensive. I won`t be surprised if the general said what he said - because he knew he could get away with it. What would Indira do - fire the most decorated general??? She wasn`t that stupid.

Saulat #32

It seems Lallo is trying to turn the country into a theocracy! Now, everyone may be required to install the picture of whatever god that is, and pray to him/her :(

#35 by harish_hyd
Harish,

``You keep your nose out of the Army, and I`ll keep my nose out of politics``. -Sam Maneckshaw

First this exchange actually happened right before the emergency as Sam Maneckshaw was not the CnC right after 71.

I think this is just a cruel anecdote- cruel on Sam Maneckshaw, unless you are just paraphrasing.
Why do I say so? I don’t think he was an idiot to respond to the PM of India in such a way and if he did then Mrs. Gandhi should have fired him for being out of line and for insubordination. An Army General cannot tell the PM of India to keep her butt/nose out of the army. The Indian PM has to keep her/his butt and nose both into the army all the time or the army would lose the funding that they desperately need all the time. Especially in the mid 70s when the politicians in India were not under pressure to maintain military funding in view of the reduced Pakistani threat and no issues in Kashmir.
Now Generals don’t become general because they are idiots. They become generals because they are the few smartest in the whole army and they know how to answer question smartly and diplomatically. In other words, they have learnt to be master brown nose and butt kissers.

He may be a general but Mrs. Gandhi was a politician and as I recall reading the whole episode correctly, she was probing to find out what army was going to do after the rumors of army takeover were ripe in the wake of the court decision against Mrs. Gandhi.

Immediately after this alleged-anecdotal- conversation Mrs. Gandhi declared emergency in India.
So actually Sam Maneckshaw was an idiot to respond in such a way, if he did, to help Mrs. Gandhi make a decision that she knew the army would not oppose.
Do you believe that he was an idiot to say such an outrageous thing OR he may have said something else and later on to save his skin this story was made up by whosoever?

I hope we can talk about it, w/o bringing India-pak relations into it.


Rsridhar,

“India definitely thinks Kashmir is good for her.”

You got it all wrong it is not WHAT India thinks, it is what the Pak army thinks and the Pak army thinks that Kashmir is wrong for India. So it is…

Sridhar #22

IMHO, parity isn`t the main issue here. It`s one of reasoning and shaped perceptions.

Indian democracy is flawed, and will continue to be so for many years to come. It can only be justified in India if we give it its proper due -- that is, along with its failures, also recognize its successes.

In Pakistani context, it`s much easier to highlight and magnify India`s (and by implication - Indian democracy`s) social failures than to recognize its social successes. That isn`t the case so much with capitalism or `economic reform` since economic measures are harder to dismiss.

So, the argument goes: Indian democracy has failed (assumption). So democracy couldn`t be all that it is cracked up to be by its supporters (conclusion). Therefore, stop talking about `democracy.` (Instruction)

To make it more interesting, throw in words like `western`, `indigenous,` `Islamic` `bootlicker,` `Quran,` `imperialism`, and you complete popular innoculation against anything except at best, possibly ``Islamic democracy`` (whatever the hell that means!).

#32 by Soulat
//...Is India back in the dark ages! ...//

Not yet. But it`s getting there. All it needs is a few more Laloos. With commies tightening the noose around investment and Laloos becoming ``managers`` of the ``Modern India`` - the day is not far. We already have newspapers and opinion-makers cooing in ecstasy at the possibility of Laloo becoming prime minister of the La-La land, otherwise known as India.

In the mean time - South China is running out of people to work in their factories. Chenese are hosting the next olympics which is billed as the biggest ``coming out`` party the world has ever seen.

Dark ages??? It`s going to be worse than that, economically speaking.

#32 by Soulat on September 20, 2004 11:13pm PT
Can anybody explain this!

Come on let us not stoop to this level!!

It is a manner of speaking like the land of pure was given by the almighty...................(although the dirty work was done by ordinary mortals).

HP # 22

There is this amusing anecdote about Indira Gandhi`s constant fear of a military takeover. I think it was right after the `71 war. The then Army Chief (Field Marshal?) Sam Maneckshaw was at IG`s residence, when she told him that she had heard rumors that the Army was planning a coup, and if it was indeed so. The no-nonsense Army chief replied, ``You keep your nose out of the Army, and I`ll keep my nose out of politics``.

Goes to show the scrupulousness of the Indian Army that has consistently resisted the temptation to fish in the murky waters of Indian politics.

Question: why Musharaf is afraid of losing the uniform? -- and what he is afraid of? -- of another `Constitutional` Coup d`etat by another ASS of a COAS....?

as claimed by the General himself -- every time a coup occurs the country benefits -- so why shouldn`t there be another coup d`etat -- by another General -- may be the things will improve further... ......and further....and further

so much so -- that one day Pakistan could become even more developed than Burma/Myanmar.....

let`s see -- what Qazi of Adaalat-e Munafeqeen -- does about the about-face of his NWFP benefactor........

nu paye maNdan nu jaye ruftun........

Can anybody explain this!

India`s railway minister says the Hindu god of machines is responsible for lowering the railroad accident rate in India

Laloo Prasad Yadav said the number of train accidents had declined since he installed a ``bright new photo`` of the god Vishwakarma in his New Delhi office.

Is India back in the dark ages!

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#22 by HP
You say:
``Now India has democracy and Pakistan does not and based on the army logic above democracy is not good for Pakistan because it is good for India....``

I think your very assumption is wrong. India definitely thinks Kashmir is good for her. If what u say were true, Pak Army should think Kashmir is not good for Pak and should stop salivating at Kashmir.
Anyway, democrazy will never come to Pak as long as they have this nonsensical idea of trying to achieve parity.
Sridhar