The Doll’s House

Hindvi

Here, some more on choronology of Civil War and this one also Confirms that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery...Main points I have highlighted in bold ..

1860


November 6 - Abraham Lincoln elected President of the United States.

December 14 - A call issued in Georgia for a convention to deliberate on a Southern Confederacy.

December 20 - South Carolina seceded from the Union.



1861


January 9 - Mississippi seceded from the Union.

January 10 - Florida seceded from the Union.

January 11 - Alabama seceded from the Union.

January 19 - Georgia seceded from the Union.

January 21 - The legislature of New York and other free states pledge support to the Union.

January 26 - Louisiana seceded from the Union.

January 29 - Kansas admitted to the Union.

February 1 - Texas seceded from the Union.

February 4 - Seceded states held a Convention in Montgomery, Alabama.

February 8 - Convention being held in Montgomery adopted a Confederate Constitution.

February 9 - Jefferson Davis elected president of the Confederate States.

February 18 - Jefferson Davis inaugurated as President of the Confederacy. After taking the oath of office as the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander H. Stephens, a former Congressman from Georgia, stated that: ``Our new government is founded on the opposite idea of the equality of the races . . . Its corner stone rests upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man. This . . . government is the first in the history of the world, based on this great physical and moral truth.``

March 4 - Abraham Lincoln inaugurated as sixteenth President of the United States.

April 12 - The Confederates fired upon Fort Sumter, South Carolina.

April 15 - An announcement was made by President Abraham Lincoln that an insurrection was in progress and the call went out to loyal states to supply troops.

April 17 - Virginia seceded from the Union.

April 19 - A projected trip to Haiti was canceled by Frederick Douglass and he called for the recruitment of Black troops.

May 6 - Arkansas seceded from the Union.

May 20 - North Carolina seceded from the Union.

May 24 - General Benjamin Butler coined the phrase “contraband of war” and refused to surrender slaves who had sought refuge in his command at Fort Monroe, Virginia.

July 22 - The Crittenden Resolution passes the U.S. House of Representatives, affirming the fact that the war was being fought to preserve the Union and not to interfere with slavery. (A note here by self: What more evidence is required to show that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery?)

July 25 - Crittenden Resolution approved by the U.S. Senate on motion by Andrew Johnson of Tennessee. He later became Governor of Tennessee and Vice-President and President of the United States.

August 14 - General John C. Fremont declared “martial law” in St. Louis, Missouri. Confederate sentiment was widespread in the area.

August 16 - Confederate states declared to be in a state of insurrection by President Lincoln.

August 30 - General Fremont issued an order confiscating property of Confederates and emancipation of their slaves. The order caused wide protest and was disavowed by President Lincoln.

October 2 - General Fremont relieved of command by President Lincoln.

(Above act of Lincoln is further proof that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery)

1862


January 15 - A letter was written by General Thomas Sherman requesting the War Department send teachers to Port Royal, South Carolina to teach ex-slaves left on plantations under control of Union forces. Edward L. Pierce submitted a plan which subsequently began the Port Royal Experiment.

February 4 - The enrolling of free Blacks in the Confederate Army was debated in the Virginia House of Delegates. No action was taken.

April 3 - The U.S. Senate voted 29-14 to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia.

April 11 - The U.S. House of Representatives voted 93-39 to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia.

May 1 - General Benjamin Butler takes command of the Military Department of the Gulf in New Orleans, Louisiana.

May 9 - General David Hunter, Commander of the Department of the South (Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina), issued an Emancipation Proclamation freeing all slaves in those states and also authorized the arming of able-bodied ex-slaves. Shortly thereafter, he organized the 1st South Carolina Colored Regiment. The unit was subsequently disbanded except for one company.

May 13 - Robert Small sails the Confederate gunboat Planter from Charleston and delivers it to Union Navy.

May 19 - President Lincoln repudiates General David Hunter`s Emancipation Act of May 9 and disavows his order.

July 17 - Adoption of the Second Confiscation Act and Militia Act by the Administration which authorized emancipation and the employment of fugitive slave labor as weapons of war. The two Act declared “forever free” all captured and fugitive slaves of the Confederates and authorized the mobilization of Blacks in “any military or naval service for which they may be found competent.”

August 11 - General Ulysses S. Grant issued an order in Corinth, Mississippi utilizing the services of all fugitive slaves behind his lines.

August 14 - President Lincoln advocated the colonization of Blacks in Central America during a meeting with a delegation of free Blacks.

August 21 - Union Generals David Hunter and John Phelps denounced by Confederate President because of their wish to recruit slaves for the Union Army.

September 16 - Abolitionist Frederick Douglass rejected the proposal by President Lincoln to colonize free Blacks in Central America.

September 22 - The first draft of Emancipation Proclamation read to the cabinet by President Lincoln.

September 27 thru November 24 - The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Louisiana Native Guard Regiments (African Descent) organized and mustered into the Union Army in New Orleans.

October 10 - Confederate President Jefferson Davis requested the state of Virginia to draft 4500 Blacks to build fortifications around Richmond.

1863


January 1 - President Lincoln issues Emancipation Proclamation. The document was directed only to the states that seceded from the Union. Slaves states that remained with the Union was not affected.

January 12 - The Confederate Congress approved President Jefferson Davis’ proclamation of December 23, 1862.

January 20 - Governor John A. Andrew of Massachusetts was authorized by Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton to recruit and organize Black soldiers.

January 26 - The 1st South Carolina Volunteer Regiment (African Descent) engage the enemy at Township, Florida, shortly after being mustered in at Beaufort.

March 21 - Frederick Douglass issues a declaration, Men of Color, To Arms. He began to recruit troops, including his sons Charles and Lewis.

March 26 - The Secretary of War issued an order directing Adjutant General Lorenzo Thomas to organize black regiments in the Mississippi Valley.



1864


February 20 - Battle of Olustee (Florida). Heavy losses suffered by the Union forces that included the 54th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 8th and 35th United States Colored Infantry Regiments. The Union forces were defeated.

April 8 - Thirteenth Amendment passes the U.S. Senate by a vote of 38-6.

April 12 - Massacre of Union Soldiers, Black enlisted and White officers, at Fort Pillow, Tennessee.

June 15 - Thirteenth Amendment falls short of the required two-thirds majority in the U.S. House of Representatives by a vote of 96-66.

July 8 - President Lincoln announces support of the Thirteenth Amendment.


November 8 - President Lincoln re-elected.

November 30 - Battle of Honey Hill, South Carolina. Participating were the 54th and 55th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 32nd, 35th, and 102nd U.S. Colored Infantry Regiments.

December 3 - The 25th Army Corps organized. (The first and only army corps made up of all-Black infantry regiments.)

December 6 - President Lincoln in the Annual Message to Congress requested reconsideration of the Thirteenth Amendment.


1865


January 1 - The U.S. House of Representatives began to debate the Thirteenth Amendment.

January 31 - Thirteenth Amendment passes the House of Representatives by a vote of 119-56.


December 18 - Thirteenth Amendment ratified after approval by twenty-seven states. (Delaware, Kentucky, New Jersey, and Mississippi rejected the amendment.)

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/cwchron.htm

Hindvi

Post#484

Quote:

`` every state in the US has its own flag and anthem, that doesnt require loads of money, will you and India allow this autonomy?``

Hindvi Sahib, I have to assume you must been busy, occupied elsewhere when you wrote the above.

Pardesi

Post#476

Quote:

`` (you really need to read his speeches for about 10-15 years just before 1860). ``

I have seen/read some excerpts from his speeches which he gave in 50s. On purpose I did not quote from those as that can be taken as political rhetoric. Excerpts that I have read do not even remotely suggest that he really wanted to abolish slavery in US.

It is possible that he may have given speeches on abolition but I have not seen those. Now if I have not quoted those which show that he was not in favour of abolition because that can be taken as political stunt then that is applicable to those speeches also which talk about abolition. Anyway, that is not the issue at all.

There is plenty of direct evidence which tells us that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery. US Congress has made that clear in 1961, and President Lincoln himself too did that with his Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, as that was applicable only on the states which had seceded. And in between we do have other material also which points in the same direction. As it is, officially, US abolished slavery at the end of 1965 only, when Civil War was already won by the Union.

AlephNull:
``I wouldn’t care to live in the ideal Islamic society that these two and their associates are preparing for us, but am grateful for having been forewarned by their candor.``

I think that an islamic society does not mean a hell-hole either. Urstruly, in my opinion, is a genuine humanitarian and, when he is serious, has outlined a fairly humanitarian interpretation of sharia without distorting it. As the Ottoman and Mughal rules showed, a non-muslim could live a peaceful and even prosperous life under muslim rule as long as he was prepared to accept an unequal status in the society.

tahmed #409

{{It is true that Naqshbandi and Echoboom using the word ``kafir``, and I should have noted that as with all rules there are some exceptions.}}

Really? What was that about “I challenge you to find any chowk post by any Pakistani … that uses this term”?

It’s not just Naqshbandi and echoboom. Right off the top of my head I can recall two other prolific Chowk interactors who often used the word. And these are not the only instances I’ve seen of Pakistanis using the term with serious intent – there have been plenty on other fora and media as well. Your alleged ‘rule’ is riddled with more exceptions than a sieve has holes.

I really would not have bothered to respond had you not used your risible claim as the basis for one of your little homilies directed at Indians. That is what moved me to knock the stuffing out of your claim.

{{you cannot demonize an entire community by picking ont he exceptions. I have never said that the Pakistanis were free of rotten vegetables, … And also note that both these two individuals you mention have heard from me the same way as hate-mongerers from India.’}}

You’ve gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick as far as I’m concerned. I live and have lived only in countries aspiring to be civilized, where silly primitive notions such as ‘blasphemy’ and ‘hate-mongering’ do not carry excessive weight. Far from being offended on hearing the word ‘kafir’ or having it directed at me, I’m likely to react with the same degree of mirth and glee as when my UP-ite friend calls me a ‘Madrasi’. I understand that in a Muslim country such as yours, being declared a kafir is a much more serious matter, since it may mark one out as a target for state-sanctioned civic discrimination or even physical violence. Since I don’t intend to live in such a country the point is moot for me.

I also object to the use of the term ‘rotten vegetables’ to besmirch those two fine gentlemen and upstanding Muslims Naqshbandi and echoboom. Dissembling and whitewashing is not their style; nor is pretending to not have seen what is in plain view. There are many Chowkies who ought to emulate their commendable forthrightness. I wouldn’t care to live in the ideal Islamic society that these two and their associates are preparing for us, but am grateful for having been forewarned by their candor.

#483 Hindvi,

I hear this mentioned often as to how Jagmohan`s role was critical in driving Pandits out of Kashmir, could you elaborate on this point of view.

#483 by hindvi

[Terrorist from your point of view fine, but they were not the only ones responsible for driving out Pandits, lots of Pandits vacated when a few were summarily shot, as were muslims for being informers.]

So you accept that the JKLF was not the only group that participated in the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits. The very fact that it did is enough to prove that the JKLF is no more/less fundamentalist than any other group.

Indeed, the only difference between it and the other groups is that it wanted independence, whereas the others wanted merger with Pakistan.

hindvi:
Could you please tell me how many hindus, sikhs, christians and buddhists are members of the JKLF? If none, how does it make it a kashmiri and not a muslim organization?
Re. Jagmohan, I would have to read both sides of the story before I agree or disagree with you. A priori, I have difficulty in believing that a supposed saffronite would do something to precipitate the ethnic cleansing of hindus.

Hindvi

Following quote I have taken from an article, link of which was given in the debate that I referred to earlier...I have not checked as yet in US govt archives to confirm the following quote which supposedly has come from the US Congress itself..I also feel, that this quote should be authentic/correct as other Americans in that debate have not objected to it or cited something to refute it...

And this is as good as getting evidence from the proverbial horse`s mouth ..on slavery was not the reason/cause for civil war in US..

`` The US Congress supported Lincoln’s position in mid-1861 when it issued a resolution on the purpose of the war. The war was not being waged, Congress declared,

``. . . in any spirit of oppression, or for any purpose of conquest or subjugation, or purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions of those [Southern] states, but to defend and maintain the supremacy of the constitution, and to preserve the Union with all the dignity, equality and rights of the several states unimpaired.`` (W.A. Dunning, Essays on the Civil War and Reconstruction, p. 13)``

I did not post #474
In #473 I put some sentences in bold such as
Unless Muslims choose otherwise, they are governed for all family related matters by the broadly Shariat and narrowly rulings of the representative jurists in their local zillas (location) maulvis, muftis, and qazis (the latter only the authority to pronounce fatawas, legal pronouncements, which are considered as sacrosanct, or near-divine, hukm�law by the Muslims. Unless the affected or grieved member seeks redress or alternative legal help outside this framework, no agency of the state has a right to interfere with this process. So if a marriage or its dissolution is decreed by the Qazi then it is divorce. This is �good in law�, whatever a secular Indian might think of the theology behind it.

and
Hence codification of personal law as the first step, and that too at the initiative of the concerned community;

dost mittar

you seem to suffer from a short memory JKLF was never a fundamentalist organisation, they never argued for Islamic law, Khilafat, Sharia etc. Terrorist from your point of view fine, but they were not the only ones responsible for driving out Pandits, lots of Pandits vacated when a few were summarily shot, as were muslims for being informers. Just pick up any book documenting the history of the conflict, if you dont like Schofield`s try any other which you consider objective, you will see Jagmohan`s role clearly. When there is an aymmetry the weaker side will often use means you will not approve of this is Guerrilla warfare. When 400,000 troops face 6000, this will happen irrespective of wether its Vietnam, afghanistan or Kashmir.

Rajsingh every state in the US has its own flag and anthem, that doesnt require loads of money, will you and India allow this autonomy?

Rajsingh

where are you getting this stuff ``It appears, civil war of US was avoidable only if President Lincoln did not want to retain/keep/maintain the territorial integrity of US of that time, and not make Center more strong.``

and you accuse dost mittar of making up stuff? is their a difference between preserving unity and making a strong center or they are the same thing in your eyes? Lincoln was avoiding conflict at all costs this is the concensus among all US historians, he waged war only when they seceded.

and then ``Southern states or states which went ahead with secession, had done that peacefully`` have you heard of Fort Sumter sir?

And do you believe Slavery was only abolished in the South and continued to exist in the north?

Hindvi

Post#469

Quote:

`` I hope you understand the difference between a fundamentalist organisation and an ordinary militant. JKLF viewed from the Indian perspective could be called a terrorist organisation but how is it fundamentalist?``

And I hope, you understand the difference between a militant and terrorist. :) Even a small child can have militant attitude, and parents/teachers/elders do say that when describing certain acts of a child or children. Hardly ever the word `terrorist` is used. So let us call JKLF organisation with its right and proper name..and that is, terrorist organisation. Now, are you saying that terrorists cannot be fundamentalists?

Quote:

`` And are you saying Rajsingh that slavery continued to exist in the northern states after the civil war? i.e. it was only abolished in the south? ``

I have said, at the time of Emancipiation Proclamation, which was in 1963, many northern states had slaves and recognised slavery. And civil war was still going on, at that time.

Your question is different. You are asking me if slavery continued to exist in northern states ``After`` the civil war.

This was not even the issue. For, we were talking about the causes of civil war and I had shown that when so called war on slavery was declared, many northern states of the Union did have slaves and recognised slavery too. So abolition of slavery as cause of civil war does not hold much water.

Second, now that you have asked, let me respond to that part also. I am saying this from memory only..if need arise, will check and reconfirm ..

I think it was abolished in 1865, and I think, civil war had been won by then by the Union.

Rajsinghi1, hindvi

Whatever I have read tells me that both sides wanted to keep union intact – on their own terms and both sides had a valid case. Intellectually/morally Lincoln was against slavery (you really need to read his speeches for about 10-15 years just before 1860). He was a realist though and did not want a war with south on this. However, western expansion brought the issue to head.

Lincoln did not think that southern states can secede from union at will. His reasons were practical – how will north control run away blacks from south to north if blacks are considered equal citizens in north? Will north chase these “properties” and return to south? What kind of treaty will keep peace between the two nations when north does not want to return its ``new citizen`` to south? He also saw that European powers might play south against north? So, I do not believe that he was trying to make center anymore stronger than was agreed upon in 1785 time frame, he just did not think that states can secede from union whenever they feel like.

Slavery issue - if west would have stayed untamed, who knows if the two sides would have fought the vicious war just because south did not subscribe to Lincoln’s moral code.

As we all know more soldiers died in civil war than TOTAL Americans killed in all subsequent wars i.e., WW1, WW2, Vietnam and Korea. What’s very interesting to me is how Americans from south and north can discuss the war with each other now and live peacefully. We, on the other hand, neither have fight to finish quality or ability to forgive each other. Our problems will stay with us for ever, like they have been before, and will keep siphoning away significant energy that could have been used more productively.

Dost Mittar

dont fall into the old trap: every demand by a muslim is a communal one and every demand by a hindu is a nationalist one.

check this journal article by Ayesha Jalal:

http://www.tufts.edu/~ajalal01/Articles/partition.ieshr.pdf

Here is the book Kashmir in Conflict:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1860648983/102-1558065-0238551?v=glance