The Doll’s House

#243 by hindvi on September 30, 2004 6:02pm PT
Tenali

I had a south indian friend in delhi, right after rajiv gandhi`s assasination, you should have seen the terror in his face, as a child he had seen sikhs being burnt infront of his house in RK Puram. he was convinced the southies had it coming, he ran to his house and barricaded himself, start packing, i told him he was hindu and he had nothing to fear but he said hell with religion goons dont care about that. so be more sympathetic to the gujju muslims you never know you may need the sympathy some day, after all one has no control where one is born.

---

Hindvi: I have all the symapthies for any innocent soul murdered...regardless of they being M or H or C or S or whatever. As you said, I might need some sympathy someday !!! You never know !!!


Please do not compare the RZ/Muslim Mob violence in India/Arab Israel War with Rajiv assasination and South Indian being scared.

There`s no justification for IMs doing stupid stuff to Hindus in INDIA just because of Bush-Saddam war / Arab Israel conflict.

You do not seem to understand issues from a Hindu perspective.

Islam - foreign religion
X`ianity - same as above
Judaism - same as above
Arapistan - some land some where 1000s of miles away
Israel - same as above.

Why should an ordinary Hindu in INDIA suffer when there fights elsewhere in the world that do not concern him/her ???

If IMs are so emotionally linked to other Ms in all other parts of the world, then with so much of conflict that Islam/Muslim has/have had over the last century or so, it`s but natural that Hindus feel irritated and angry (they are angry in their own land - not else where....these are legitimate feelings of Hindus) that they get vandalised for inconsequential things.

So, Mr.Shanmugam and Mr.Patel get their a&se kicked today coz Salman Rushdie wrote something against the Prophet..... and again get their a&se kicked tomorrow because Bush thumped Saddam somewhere ... and the day after, this repeats because of Israel Bobbits Arapistan..........when will Mr.Shan and Mr.Patel live in peace in THEIR OWN COUNTRY ???

Please do not forget that Hindus have had the history of Muslim Barbarism in THEIR OWN LAND for centuries.

So, even after independence if these things continue, it`s but natural that they will react......it`s in this context that Gujarat should be seen. Pls do not forget Godhra.

Also, if you agree that Muslims are emotionally linked to their religion/religious lands/fellow muslims(ummah?).....then you have to forward the same courtesy to others. Thus you will understand why Babri should not exist there. Also, if you agree to this ummah connexion then an Indian Hindu is justifiedly concerned about the future of the country (another partition ??).

If IMs accept that they are culturally Hindu then they have accepted their roots.....they have accepted their true identity and they will be at peace with themselves and their fellow countrymen. (This can be misinterpreted and hence this clarification: No need to change your religion......be who you are.....respect the native culture/religion......do not reject your roots).

Vertex: Did you ever get to go thru the Sulekha post on ``India as a nation`` ??

I think you should. At least this weekend. It will help you appreciate India and your roots better. And may be you will make peace with your fellow country men.

Gandiv,

``Its not the Hindus that need to accomodate, but the Muslims who have exclusivist, hard-entrenced, supremacist beliefs and refuse to tolerate even secular laws. ``

Of course, no doubt you would hold any belief that does not acknowledge the superiority of Hinduism in India as such a beleif. Hindus do not need to accomodate because they are what Muslims are expected to assimlate to...the implication being that they are somehow foreign or not entirely Indian.

The problem is not a faith community being different, but of a chauvanisitc lot demanding that that difference be eliminated.

Gandiv:
``You should atleast have grace, gratitude and gumption to thank him for what he did, for that was one of the reasons you`re enjoying the freedom today.``

I do. In fact, the most interesting part of the story to me was that it convinced the British that they could no longer trust the loyalty of the British Indian troops and that this was perhaps a contributing factor to their withdrawal from India. So, Bose`s efforts may not have been in vain after all!

Rajsinghi:
``Wonder how this conclusion has been arrrived at? Subhash Chandra Bose fascinated with Hitler?``
There were many admirers of Hitler during the thirties, including those in Britain (P.G.Wodehous) and in the U.S. Bose was a socialist and in case one forgets, Hitler`s party was called the National Socialist (hence Nazis) which appealed to many socialists. I wonder if someone like Bongdong could throw some light on the ideology of Forward Bloc founded by Bose and whether it had any similarity with National Socialism. I doubt if the official manifesto called for the extermination of jews and therefore an admiration for Hitler at that time did not necessarily mean approval of his evil acts.

Dear Farzana:
There are two issues here, a minor and a major one. The minor one is that some of your genuine friends watch this tamasha in despair as some people from one side do their wah-wahs and those on the other demand your head on the platter. The major one is that you raise some serious issues, or rather a serious ISSUE, one of hindu-muslim relationship and rather than your articles stimulating a constructive debate, the ``fly`` tenor of your writing shifts the focus from the serious issue to a discussion of your personality.

The ISSUE remained latent during the Nehruvian period but never disappeared. It was just that among the hindu elite it was politically incorrect to voice their true feelings and so the debate never took place. The Muslim elite was lulled into thinking that there was no more issue and that everyone had accepted the Marxist-Muslim version of the hindu-muslim interaction (basically a more civilised version of the one taught in Pakistan except for the history of the creation of Pakistan itself); the only ones who knew this was not the case were the the poor, uneducated muslims who not only bore the brunt of the barely-reported riots but also had to interact with ordinary hindus on a day-to-day basis and face their prejudices and discriminations. The Ramayan-Mahabharat serials, though third rate productions from the few that I saw, gave hindus the pride in themselves and the Shah Bano case gave them the opportunity to remove the mask of political correctness from their speeches, further emboldened by the de-pariah-isation of the BJP from the political mainstream.

One might say that in some sense, this is a healthy development, since the issues cannot be resolved unless and until they are discussed and debated in the open. An imperfect analogy is the situation facing South Africa after end of the apartheid. Therefore, despite my lack of detailed knowledge about RF`s background, he at least is trying to introspect and reach out to the hindus for a reconciliation. I wish that there were similar introspection from some hindu leaders, as well as more similar voices from muslims. Among hindus unfortunatley I have not seen such voices after Gandhi and Patel who both understood the hindu psyche and were able to deal with the muslims, though in different ways. I would have even added Vajpayee except that he had three faces - a sanghi, a politician and a statesman and only the last face would qualify in that category. I have excluded Nehru because his worldview was of a Marxist and not of a hindu. Unfortunately, we have only two types of hindu leaders right now, the dwindling tribe of Nehruvians who can see no wrong in what muslims do (they would blame hindus for godhra and everytime they do that, they drive a few more hindus into the saffron camp) and others like Tagodia for whom muslims mean Babar-ki-aulad and nothing more. I wish that we do get some moderate hindu leaders who understand the hindu psyche as Gandhi-Patel did but can also relate to the muslim psyche in a positive way as well understand their genuine concerns like their desire to live their lives with safety and dignity without losing their religious-cultural identities and without having to prove their loyalty to their country to the majority community.

subroto: Thanks for providing the only credible Indian challenge to hamidm.

FV
You might be interested in http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1036621,000900010004.htm?headline=Gudiya~II:~Hindu~woman~returns~to~first~hubby~after~7~years

Now media is making a spectacle of Hindus!!

And in
http://www.samachar.com/openbin/redirect.vs?H/20041001/toi_index/4,http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/869456.cms?headline=One~island,~7~men,~55~sex~charges

A spectacle of Christians..
Would you consider writing an article on these too.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

You said:
``Shortly after the riots, I had posted on Chowk that the number of Hindus killed vs. the number of Muslims killed was not in proportion to their population ratios, indicating that the Muslims got the better of the Hindus. That fact of course is completely ignored by the Pakistanis as well as by hand-wringing Hindus who are sorry that they haven`t bent over backward (in the case of Ali_1, it would be forward) to accommodate the minorities. ``

:> Causalties in a Riot is not expected to be proportional to the population in the locality. It`s common sense that it`s comparable to those who participated in it.

For your knowledge, if you analyze the riot history in sensitive parts of India, it always invariably starts in a muslim dominated area.

Its not the Hindus that need to accomodate, but the Muslims who have exclusivist, hard-entrenced, supremacist beliefs and refuse to tolerate even secular laws.

Why don`t riots happen with Christians or Sikhs or other minorities?

Dost Mittar

Post#281

`` But this fascination wa not limited to them alone. Subhash Bose was another leader who was fascinated by him and his party forward block is still probably committed to the same ideology. Here is an interesting story from the BBC that you might find interesting:


Wonder how this conclusion has been arrrived at? Subhash Chandra Bose fascinated with Hitler? The story given in support actually completely negates that he was fascinated by Hitler. It shows more his wanting to use Hitler and his forces to get rid of British from India. How does that translate into Subhash Chandra Bose being fascinated by Hitler?

Quoted story also says that once Hitler attacked Russia, and Subhash Chander Bose`s Suspicions got confirmed that Hitler intended to use him, and Subhash Chander Bose went to Japan and tried to raise another army of Indian soldiers. How this act of his in any way tell us that he was fascinated by Hitler? On the contrary, it tells us the exact opposite. And that is, he was willing to use anyone or take services of anyone who could help him in his goal of throwing British away from India. How is that a fascination with Hitler?

Dost Mittar

Post#281

`` But this fascination wa not limited to them alone. Subhash Bose was another leader who was fascinated by him and his party forward block is still probably committed to the same ideology. Here is an interesting story from the BBC that you might find interesting:


Wonder how this conclusion has been arrrived at? Subhash Chandra Bose fascinated with Hitler? The story given in support actually completely negates that he was fascinated by Hitler. It shows more his wanting to use Hitler and his forces to get rid of British from India. How does that translate into Subhash Chandra Bose being fascinated by Hitler?

Quoted story also says that once Hitler attacked Russia, and Subhash Chander Bose`s Suspicions got confirmed that Hitler intended to use him, and Subhash Chander Bose went to Japan and tried to raise another army of Indian soldiers. How this act of his in any way tell us that he was fascinated by Hitler? On the contrary, it tells us the exact opposite. And that is, he was willing to use anyone or take services of anyone who could help him in his goal of throwing British away from India. How is that a fascination with Hitler?

Hindvi

Post #272

Quote: Even Jinnah didnot want to break india, the first time some students brought the scheme to his house in London in the early thirties he threw them out saying that they wanted to undo the one good that the brtish had achieved in 200 years. Check out the articles I addressed to stuka, he even accepted the cabinet mission plan.


After his, and his cohorts speeches for 1945 elections and after elections too, it is highly questionable that his acceptance of cabinet mission plan meant anything in reality. Just like his so called press release about peaceful hartal. Recall, he was a brilliant lawyer. Whether he was or not but quite often we are reminded of that.

I already have given reasons for this on Jinnah Hazir Ho ......thread.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

hindvi,

[...This is not true, I am sure there are some muslims with bitter experiences who want that, but by far muslims want India to prosper...]

i am not generalizing either. i wrote `these people with muslim names`....the reference is explicitly for the persons mentioned in gujju`s post.

btw, have you heard of kaleem kawaja? which organisation is he affiliated with...his articles in pakistan link and milli gazette, etc? what do you think of him?