The Doll’s House

Hindvi

In case link is desired from where I have quoted discussion in Parliament on riots in Gujrat...here it is..

LOK SABHA

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SYNOPSIS OF DEBATES

(Proceedings other than Questions & Answers)

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Monday, March 11, 2002/Phalguna 20, 1923 (Saka)

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* MATTERS UNDER RULE 377

http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/lsdeb/ls13/ses9/110302.html

Well, you can thank all those whom you want, if that really charms you.
But that wouldn`t trun facts into fallacy.

You said:
``ganduv for attempting to deconstruct FVs article point-by-point, and thus completely missing the point. ``

:> If I questioned the sheer fabrication and biased viewpoints ``point-by-point``, then how did I miss the point?

Haven`t seen any sensible reply to any of the questions yet.
All that FV did was diversion, cross-talk and crying-wolf with strong dose of religous hatred.

``Great Going Gudiya.``
Great going??? Didn`t the article painted Gudiya as a poor victim of ``conspiring hindu media``?Are you happy about Gudiya`s condition as of now, or her use as a tool?

Seems to me that Gudiya-talk served your purpose of trying to attack the secular fabric of India, which you and the wah-wah jamaat wouldn`t understand a bit.

But you didn`t succeed and nobody ever would.

Fact is Gudiya remains where she was, and many more Gudiyas share the same fate, until you introspect and refine your ideology for good.

Thank Bose for standing up and fighting for freedom.

Britain was pissed of by Bose`s militant efforts that created a sense of nationalism in not only in the recruited soldiers but also among those in the british barracks.

Have you ever bothered to think why this information was considered so sensitive and hidden into british archives? It doesn`t make sense to hide that, when they had already defeated the enemy at the end of the war. What was it that UK was afraid of?

They hid the information so that it can be twisted and used later at a sensitive time in India to fuel the flames when it suits british interests.

And also because patrioism was so high at the dawn on independence that nobody would have given a hoot when union jack was already being packed up.

Also there is nothing in the article which explicitly shows that Netaji believed and endorsed the fascist racist idelology or he had any knowledge of mass killing of the jews.

All that Bose was driven of was the conviction to drive britishers out of India.
You should atleast have grace, gratitude and gumption to thank him for what he did, for that was one of the reasons you`re enjoying the freedom today.

Well, it`s another thing if you curse him for ridding you of the britsh yoke of slavery. May be, it`s too much to ask from your lot to stand proud against west.

A VOTE OF THANKS TO SOME CONTRIBUTORS

vertex and hindvi for presenting the strong face of a confident muslim indian.

subbu and hamidm for the funnies (subbu wins easily if its a contest this time)

ganduv for attempting to deconstruct FVs article point-by-point, and thus completely missing the point.

gujju for not jerking-off over the UNDP published PPP tables he keeps under his bed

sadna for showing up

Finally FV for writing this article. Except for hamidm and DM, pakis have unfortunately not contributed much to this debate.

Great Going Gudiya.

#267
Re Gudiya, I do appreciate, blaming all Hindus for Zee`s programming while carefully avoiding any talk about the system of Jamaat justice makes good sense on a Paki website. Please do let me know if you ever discuss the working of Muslim personal law elsewhere on the web, I would be interested.

tahmed32:
satsriakal is no more a sikh than is simran. At chowk there seems to be a trend for some hindus and muslims to assume sikh names to fire their shots at each other over sikh shoulders.

soundmeister#179:
The fascination of the RSS founders with Hitler and Mussolini is old news. But this fascination wa not limited to them alone. Subhash Bose was another leader who was fascinated by him and his party forward block is still probably committed to the same ideology. Here is an interesting story from the BBC that you might find interesting:

``Hitler`s secret Indian army
By Mike Thomson
BBC News


In the closing stages of World War II, as Allied and French resistance forces were driving Hitler`s now demoralised forces from France, three senior German officers defected.

The information they gave British intelligence was considered so sensitive that in 1945 it was locked away, not due to be released until the year 2021.
Now, 17 years early, the BBC`s Document programme has been given special access to this secret file.

It reveals how thousands of Indian soldiers who had joined Britain in the fight against fascism swapped their oaths to the British king for others to Adolf Hitler - an astonishing tale of loyalty, despair and betrayal that threatened to rock British rule in India, known as the Raj.

The story the German officers told their interrogators began in Berlin on 3 April 1941. This was the date that the left-wing Indian revolutionary leader, Subhas Chandra Bose, arrived in the German capital.

Bose, who had been arrested 11 times by the British in India, had fled the Raj with one mission in mind. That was to seek Hitler`s help in pushing the British out of India.


He wanted 500 volunteers who would be trained in Germany and then parachuted into India. Everyone raised their hands. Thousands of us volunteered
Lieutenant Barwant Singh

Six months later, with the help of the German foreign ministry, he had set up what he called ``The Free India Centre``, from where he published leaflets, wrote speeches and organised broadcasts in support of his cause.
By the end of 1941, Hitler`s regime officially recognised his provisional ``Free India Government`` in exile, and even agreed to help Chandra Bose raise an army to fight for his cause. It was to be called ``The Free India Legion``.

Bose hoped to raise a force of about 100,000 men which, when armed and kitted out by the Germans, could be used to invade British India.

He decided to raise them by going on recruiting visits to Prisoner-of-War camps in Germany which, at that time, were home to tens of thousands of Indian soldiers captured by Rommel in North Africa.

Volunteers

Finally, by August 1942, Bose`s recruitment drive got fully into swing. Mass ceremonies were held in which dozens of Indian POWs joined in mass oaths of allegiance to Adolf Hitler.


These are the words that were used by men that had formally sworn an oath to the British king: ``I swear by God this holy oath that I will obey the leader of the German race and state, Adolf Hitler, as the commander of the German armed forces in the fight for India, whose leader is Subhas Chandra Bose.``
I managed to track down one of Bose`s former recruits, Lieutenant Barwant Singh, who can still remember the Indian revolutionary arriving at his prisoner of war camp.

``He was introduced to us as a leader from our country who wanted to talk to us,`` he said.

``He wanted 500 volunteers who would be trained in Germany and then parachuted into India. Everyone raised their hands. Thousands of us volunteered.``

Demoralised

In all 3,000 Indian prisoners of war signed up for the Free India Legion.

But instead of being delighted, Bose was worried. A left-wing admirer of Russia, he was devastated when Hitler`s tanks rolled across the Soviet border.

Matters were made even worse by the fact that after Stalingrad it became clear that the now-retreating German army would be in no position to offer Bose help in driving the British from faraway India.

When the Indian revolutionary met Hitler in May 1942 his suspicions were confirmed, and he came to believe that the Nazi leader was more interested in using his men to win propaganda victories than military ones.

So, in February 1943, Bose turned his back on his legionnaires and slipped secretly away aboard a submarine bound for Japan.


There, with Japanese help, he was to raise a force of 60,000 men to march on India.
Back in Germany the men he had recruited were left leaderless and demoralised. After mush dissent and even a mutiny, the German High Command despatched them first to Holland and then south-west France, where they were told to help fortify the coast for an expected allied landing.

After D-Day, the Free India Legion, which had now been drafted into Himmler`s Waffen SS, were in headlong retreat through France, along with regular German units.

It was during this time that they gained a wild and loathsome reputation amongst the civilian population.

The former French Resistance fighter, Henri Gendreaux, remembers the Legion passing through his home town of Ruffec: ``I do remember several cases of rape. A lady and her two daughters were raped and in another case they even shot dead a little two-year-old girl.``

Finally, instead of driving the British from India, the Free India Legion were themselves driven from France and then Germany.

Their German military translator at the time was Private Rudolf Hartog, who is now 80.

``The last day we were together an armoured tank appeared. I thought, my goodness, what can I do? I`m finished,`` he said.

``But he only wanted to collect the Indians. We embraced each other and cried. You see that was the end.``

Mutinies

A year later the Indian legionnaires were sent back to India, where all were released after short jail sentences.

But when the British put three of their senior officers on trial near Delhi there were mutinies in the army and protests on the streets.

With the British now aware that the Indian army could no longer be relied upon by the Raj to do its bidding, independence followed soon after.

Not that Subhas Chandra Bose was to see the day he had fought so hard for. He died in 1945.

Since then little has been heard of Lieutenant Barwant Singh and his fellow legionnaires.

At the end of the war the BBC was forbidden from broadcasting their story and this remarkable saga was locked away in the archives, until now. Not that Lieutenant Singh has ever forgotten those dramatic days.

``In front of my eyes I can see how we all looked, how we would all sing and how we all talked about what eventually would happen to us all,`` he said.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3684288.stm

Published: 2004/09/23 23:52:49 GMT

© BBC MMIV``

244/hamid
//....really started to believe that all is well in india and ram is in heaven playing his flute and enticing virgins ....//

Nobody ever said or believed that all is well in India ...... Indians very well know what a hell-hole India is. But that doesn`t mean you allow communal freaks like farzana spread their venom all around. We have enough muck already - why allow these freaks pour more nonsense into the mix?

And by the way - Ram didn`t play flute, he was the warrior guy. It was Krishna .... and he wasn`t enticing virgins - his ladylove was a married woman :)))) Go figure.

Shame on you - you don`t know the history of your own ancestors - you f**ing convert :))

#267
Re Gudiya, I do appreciate, blaming all Hindus for Zee`s programming while carefully avoiding any talk about the system of Jamaat justice makes good sense on a Paki website. Please do let me know if you ever discuss the working of Muslim personal law elsewhere on the web, I would be interested.

Farzana,

Read your other article on The Friday Times. I still do not understand who you hold such dissent for anything to do with the Indian society. If your grudge is sincere, and is causing you such heartburn, WHY NOT pour your anguish in the Indian media ALSO?? Are you afraid, the ``hindu extremists`` would cause you bodily harm?? Don`t you want to create a serious debate back home? There are two things happening here. Your constant pouring of everything bad in India, in the Pakistani media AND NOT in the Indian seriously undermines whatever genuine complaints you have. How is that you are unable to tolerate anything of the existing social setup in India ?? Is it that stiffling?? Hindus always wanted the swine politicians of India to stop playing minority politics. Muslims are 150 million. They are NOT a minority. Believe me, the neighborhood that I grew up in Bangalore was not trouble free. I never felt safe with so much of rabble rousing happening all the time there, when something happened in the middle-east. What do you say to that? I still do not blame the entire muslim community, for that. I blame it on the higher illiteracy rates among the muslims there and RESULTANT low employment opportunities.

If you are serious about educating the hindus about what really it is that muslims or you hold a grudge against the treatment from the society, please do tone down your tenor. Don`t you see how much you have already vitiated the interactions here? Are you like this in real life? If you are like this, do spend a little amount of time in realizing that despite your tone and tenor, you are still being heard in India. If you are not being heard, well, I would say be gentle, logical , detached from emotiions, factual and firm. Do not extrapolate things meaningless. The gudiya thing was so unfortunate, but communal the least. The immature indian media would have done it to a Jayanthi. Don`t you see that?

There is nothing wrong in writing to Pakistani media. Commendable. Afterall Arundhati washes our dirty linen in the west a lot. But she DOES publish in the Indian media too. Is someone suppressing her writings?

Having said all this, I would once again say, Indian muslims must be mature, be less fiery about pan-islamic issues, respect all faiths, educated, and less scriptural.

This article stoops to the level of trash that hindu rascals like Togadia and Uma Bharti spout- a crass communal piece of non-sense which deserves to be treated with all the contempt.

I would again request my Indian friends to ignore and boycott it than react to it in any manner!!

This article stoops to the level of trash that hindu rascals like Togadia and Uma Bharti spout- a crass communal piece of non-sense which deserves to be treated with all the contempt.

I would again request my Indian friends to ignore and boycott it than react to it in any manner!!

rEF concerned1 #265

[hindvi,

can you tell us how many hindus died in post-godhra riots and who killed them?]

Shortly after the riots, I had posted on Chowk that the number of Hindus killed vs. the number of Muslims killed was not in proportion to their population ratios, indicating that the Muslims got the better of the Hindus. That fact of course is completely ignored by the Pakistanis as well as by hand-wringing Hindus who are sorry that they haven`t bent over backward (in the case of Ali_1, it would be forward) to accommodate the minorities.

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #245

[#241 gujju1,
So that`s all the arguments you have left? Go back to cutting & pasting then. And, get a life. If you indeed are a teenager as you say you are, getting up so early in the morning to post bile on the net is very sad. Harimau can afford that because he is in the autumn of his life and this is pretty much all he has left.]

Even on my deathbed, more of my brain cells will be functioning than ever did in your cranium. That is the advantage of being born a brahmin!

Hindvi

Post #229

Quote:

``the second thing is the length of the riot, riots have never gone on for so long, in delhi the army was out in three days its another matter that in just three days they had butchered 3000. in mumbai despite the inaction of Sudhakar Rao Naik and his ego hassle with Pawar the army was I think out in 7. In Gujarat the riots continued for weeks and months, the army itself requested to be deployed, but was deffered, thanks to the double whammy of a state and centre controlled by the BJP ``

Harimau has already replied to this in his post #251 as follows:

``Pure BS. The army was in Gujarat by the third day, I remember from contemporaneous reports. ``

And Harimau is not wrong.

Just for the record only...

Here are some excerpts on the subject matter from the Parliament itself which tells us that Army was called the next day but it took 16 hours for the army to make arrangements. Worst case scenario is that army was deployed after 3 days.

DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 193

Re: Godhra killings and subsequent violence in Gujarat

SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSI initiating the discussion, said : Today, when we are taking part in this discussion, the entire country is surcharged with different kinds of moods of the people, provided by various sections of the society on the recent happenings. The incident of Godhra took place on 27th morning between 7.45 a.m. to 9 a.m. It was a dastardly and most condemnable incident. Our leader did rightly condemn that incident in unmistakable words that evening. On 28th, the Home Minister of India was not in a position to make an official statement in the House about the incident. It was the duty of the hon. Prime Minister on 28th itself, to call all the political parties` leaders and make an appeal to the whole nation to keep calm and restraint. His appeal to the nation came on the 2nd March evening on television. After the incident, the Government came to the sense to make an appeal that such kind of movement in Ayodhya should be stopped now.

There are eyes on this country to destabilise it, to balkanise it and to further perpetrate the terrorirst attacks here and there. After 13th December attack on Parliament, India projected its unified command and message of unity and diversity and solidity to the whole world. I was shocked to hear on the day of the incident of Godhra, in this Parliament a slogan ``One who works in the interest of Hindus, will rule the country`` was shouted and I heard the same slogan on the streets of Ahmedabad on 3rd March. We may have anger, we may have anguish at Godhra, but our reflection should not be like this.

The Cabinet found it important to send not the Home Minister, but the Defence Minister on the afternoon of 1st March to Gujarat. When Shri George Fernandes arrived, the Army was not deployed. The deployment started from the 2nd morning. We from the Congress Party strongly feel that in the matter of internal security, para-military should be the last resort. When there is no other option left, then only the Army should be deployed.


DR. VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA : We all condemn the barbaric incidents occurred during riots in Gujarat. All have expressed their anxiety and anger over these incidents. The points mentioned by Shri Priya Ranjan Dasmunsi are not going to solve the Gujarat problem rather it would vitiate the problem. He has concentrated only on the resignation of Chief Minister of Gujarat and of Shri Lal Krishan Advani on the plea that delay was made in deploying the army. The Godhra incident took place on 27th. It was a shameful incident. We must condemn those who were involved in those barbaric killings. Several People were raising slogans there that Vishva Hindu Parishad should be banned. Military was summoned on 28th. It took 16 hours to deploy the military there. It is true that military can not be deployed throughout Gujarat at one point of time but deployment of military had already started. But media was propagating that military was yet to be deployed there. Whereas the fact was that military had controlled the situation in 16-18 hours. The resignation of Shri Narendra Modi is being sought.

The biggest ever riot took place in the year 1969 in Ahemdabad. Thousands of people were killed in that riot. Shri Jitendra Desai was the Chief Minister at that time there. His resignation was never sought. The resignation of Shri Modi is being sought because 100 people have been killed by the police personnel. The police was deployed on the night of 27th and the army was summoned on 28th. Appeal was made to maintain peace and Peace committees were formed. All necessary orders were issued. The riots of 1985 continued for about 6 months but here we could control the situation in 72 hours.

Hindvi

Post #229

On Pt Nehru, here is the direct quote.

``I doubt very much if it (Pakistan) can survive at all. Financially it will be completely bankrupt,`` he wrote to Sheikh Abdullah on October 10 (Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru; Second Series; Volume 4; Page 269). ``Kashmir`s future is of the utmost intimate personal significance. On no account do I want Kashmir to become a kind of colony of foreign interests. I fear Pakistan is likely to become that if it survives at all.``

As to Sardar Patel, it is possible that he may have said Pakistan will fold back into India. I have seen these sorts of words being attributed to him at other places also. IIRC , Dr Shayama Parsad Mukherjee`s speech (though I read it only yesterday/last night but it is a pretty lengthy speech) to the Parliament in 1952 in which he is pleading with Pt Nehru to take action against Pakistan because Pakistan had not been fulfilling its commitments/pledges to India to protect minorties in Pakistan (many non muslims had written to him that in order to survive in Pakistan, they would have to convert to Islam and some papers had written/reported about the heinous crimes being committed against women), has touched on the subject of Sardar Patel having said that Pakistan will fail and merge back into India. Now this is not a direct evidence that is why I said it is possible that he may have said that.

subroto,

............. you are on to us!..... i knew it was simply a matter of time before the cerebral hindoos figured out our nefarious scheme ......... unfortunately, on our side (the right side), pansari pathan`s bania genes have been seriously diluted by generations of cross-breeding with afghans, turks, arabs, mongols and any other riff raff that passed through khyber pass or got washed up on the shores of the arabian sea................my mother, god bless her soul, also used to say that diet had a lot to do with it: ``you cannot get anything past the bania because he eats brinjals and tori`` - two things that most self respecting musalmaans avoid like the plague (or swine flu)...............

...... anyway, hope your cousin`s take away curry joint is doing well ...............