The Doll’s House

#350: orangepeko/sadna:
``Obviously, no one is talking about this, but what the heck. It is hard to imagine how it would be if Hindus had to take our personal matters relating to marriage,divorce, maintanence and custody to our local temple committees. It appears that many Muslims in India do indeed have to submit to decisions of their local Jamaats in these personal matters.``
Ever heard of village panchayats? They may not be religion based, but in villages they do decide on marriage (ruling out marriage in the case of inter-caste love and punishing the couple), infidelity, divorce etc.

``[Are you claiming that literal interpretation is strictly the province of Followers of The Book?
(Evil grin)]

Is it? Will you remember it the next time you fling the Shia-Sunni-Wahabi-Deobandi-Ahmediya-Ismaili-Bohra differences in the general Muslim direction? ``

BWAHAHAHAH!!! Touche!! Touche!!

#387, 395 by harimau

[Are you claiming that literal interpretation is strictly the province of Followers of The Book?
(Evil grin)]

Is it? Will you remember it the next time you fling the Shia-Sunni-Wahabi-Deobandi-Ahmediya-Ismaili-Bohra differences in the general Muslim direction?

[What is tongue-in-cheek to you (and I suspected as much) is not necessarily so to others. Can`t you see Urstruly, Ali_1, Mullah32, etc., reading that paragraph, nodding thir heads mournfully, shedding tears at the plight of Indian Muslims in general and of Farzana Versey in particular]

I addressed this article to the Hindus, so if you got it, then it is ok by me…interestingly the three Pakistanis you mentioned do not particularly like me… (*adjusting to new whining mode!*)

[(....Arabs, according to prevalent belief, drink only slime water that has been rolled in the muck...)
If you remember my article (a shameless plug!), it is my Muslim Driver who holds this particular opinion and that too about just the water (to be precise, Zam-Zam water). ]

Did I not talk about co-opting?? And how easy it is to bring out the rabbit from the hat to create this magic realism!

[However, you still cannot perform the Haj without an accompanying mahram. Don`t expect Urstruly or that Koranic scholar Mullah32 to come to your aid on this issue]

Aha…so you think there aren’t any Muslim men left in India or won’t be any by the time I decide to perform the Haj (if I do)?? I am quite sure I will find someone who has converted to Islam at the Vatican and will be ready to accompany me…after all, wearing a toga is so rare in what used to be the Roman Empire – this would be his chance…

[As to arrogance, I do appreciate those who are modest for they have much to be modest about! (Evil grin)]

Achtung Atlee :)
- - -

#391 by nb:

[Does anyone even want to co-opt me?? :)]

Ask O!

I did respond to the positive posts too, and if you recall I left the knee-jerk responses nameless…I just feel that the main purpose here was not to take a feminist stance (have done that and will continue to do so)…

Yes, Shaina is contesting. Have met her too. The ‘in’ thing in sarees according to her is wearing two sarees together…some in toga style…she could design one for male hajis now…:)

dost mittar #386 What you are saying (that the terms is neutral) is certainly consistent by and large with the Quran (which of course you have read): In the Quran the term is used in the same neutral manner as you describe (most notably in ``Surah Kafiroon``) where it enjoins muslims to not get into religious arguments with people of other religions and famously enjoins upon muslims to tell the ``kafiroon`` that ``to you be your way to me mine``, in other words to respect the right of other people to follow their own beliefs (or lack thereof, as in case agnostics). Of course this Quranic injunction has all too often been ignored in history, and that brings me to my ``however`` below. :-)

HOWEVER, for those less well versed in the Quran (which includes most muslims and hindus), the term is not considered to be neutral (and that of course is why you were having to explain this to rajasingh). While you may not be demonizing muslims by incorrectly implying that they have used this term for you (or even that it is a term that is seriously used other than in the historical context), it certainly would be seen this way by those from your country who are only too happy to find anything negative to attribute to muslims. Thus, in fact not only were you factually wrong in implying that pakistanis (or muslims) have been using this term on chowk (as I pointed out in my previous post to you), I am afraid that in addition you were also not quite correct when you said that the term does not bother you without adding that basically it is not a pejoritive term in the Quran either.

harimau #390 Keeping you straight is a full time job. How do you know that i am well read in the Quran only? This is another example of the stupid man that you are.

harimau #389 Namecalling and middle school cliches having failed, now the Modiite Thug runs and hides behind...a muslim. ha! ha! While I disagree with Sattar`s interpretation of the Quran, I dont call him a nonmuslim either. If he thinks he is a muslim, that is fine by me.

Try hiding behind Modi`s lungi next, you little hindutva thug. ha! ha!

Ref FarzanaVersey #376

[#349 by harimau:

....besides, your post is so literal.....]

Are you claiming that literal interpretation is strictly the province of Followers of The Book?
(Evil grin)

Ref FarzanaVersey #376

[Gosh, the arrogance of being able to say that you write the posts with a smile on your face and can see the one at the receiving end ``squirming``! (Would I be able to say this?) I feel like whining real loud now....besides, your post is so literal. For someone who claims to be smiling so much, why did you not see that the whole para was tongue-in-cheek?]

What is tongue-in-cheek to you (and I suspected as much) is not necessarily so to others. Can`t you see Urstruly, Ali_1, Mullah32, etc., reading that paragraph, nodding thir heads mournfully, shedding tears at the plight of Indian Muslims in general and of Farzana Versey in particular at having to live in Dar-ul-Harb and resolving to contribute to the cause of liberation of Kashmir? So, the receiving end is not necessarily the one to whom the post is addressed but those who read it and those who claim not to read my posts (if you get my drift).

As to arrogance, I do appreciate those who are modest for they have much to be modest about! (Evil grin)

[And, oh no, not the whole world drinks the milk of gau-mata...there is buffalo milk for the desi ghee types...]

My mother refused to use buffalo milk in our household when we were children on the belief that buffalo milk causes the brain to become dull. While she may have had no scientific evidence for this belief, the vast plains of India north of the Vindhyas seem to offer empirical proof in support of her! Today of course, we get ``toned milk`` which is some combination of milk, water and milk powder, yech!

[.. goat`s milk for the Gandhians....]

I really thought of suggesting goat`s milk but the mere association of that with Gandhi (and suggesting it on Gandhi`s birth anniversary) might have caused Urstruly to pop an artery. Do I really want to be responsible for another Muslim`s death on top of all those Muslims who died in Gujarat?

[....camel`s milk for the baby camels (Arabs...]

and Arab-wannabe`s!

[....Arabs, according to prevalent belief, drink only slime water that has been rolled in the muck...]

If you remember my article (a shameless plug!), it is my Muslim Driver who holds this particular opinion and that too about just the water (to be precise, Zam-Zam water).

[....and soya milk for those with brittle bones and flexi spines.]

Come on, I had to mentally walk through the dairy aisle of a US supermarket (HEB to be precise, a shortened form of HE Butt`s Supermarket... I wonder why the name was shortened!) to come up with acidophilous milk for you to add to your list!

[Yes, of course, by making beef available, my rights are not being violated. Wasn`t this all I was asking for in this whole article? The right to have a juicy steak? And everytime I enter McDonald`s I create quite a scene by flooding the floor with my tears and ruing the fact that the beef burger has been co-opted by the mainstream. I completely ignore the oink-oink sounds in the background...sure, I am squirming all the time. Anything to make you smile...]

I really don`t know what you ARE fighting for. It took you a long time before you came up with that article on the triple talaq against which the Indian mainstream (or a narrow subset of it which might be conveniently termed the Hindutva-wadis) have been railing. As to the beef burger being coopted by the mainstream, I wonder if you mean the aloo tikka burger. Anyway, I haven`t set foot inside a Mickey D`s in India so I wouldn`t know what their offerings are and how Ronald McDonald himself has been forced to join the Hindu mainstream in India but I am willing to accept any explanation you might choose to offer to educate me in this regard.

[....(so where it the Haj subsidy??)]

Haven`t you heard? Our Spineless Hero (Manmohan Singh) has ordered that the provision that only those who do not pay income tax in India (meaning, those without a decent income in India, a provision that was inserted by the BJP to deprive well-to-do Indian Muslims of the Koran mandate that one should perform the Haj with one`s own money which in India is the Government`s money!) to be repealed.

However, you still cannot perform the Haj without an accompanying mahram. Don`t expect Urstruly or that Koranic scholar Mullah32 to come to your aid on this issue!

hindvi: I assume the personal insult you refer to is my calling Harimau a ``Modiite scoundrel.`` Your advice is misplaced for the following reasons:

1. I believe this that ``Modiite scoundrel`` is in fact an accurate description. I refer to him as a Modiite since he is an supporter of the Gujerat killings as being revenge for Godhra. And I refer to him as a scoundrel since any individual who excuses the killings of innocent people - let alone the particularly vicious manner in which families were murdered in Gujerat - is a scoundrel (to say the least).

2. This is not in response to his namecalling which is in fact all it is (as I have explained below). His calling me a Mullah does not bother me since I know I have never written anything on chowk on matters of religion that anyone would consider to be bigotted or anything like that (the mindset a Mullah is associated with). Indeed, I have often argued the opposite - that all religions - including hinduism and islam - are basically giving the same positive message (and I have argued this based on my own understanding of these religions and on the basis of books on religion written by western scholars). Thus, his namecalling says nothing about me, and says a lot about the mindset of this immature man. (I didnt even bother to burden him with this explanation that I have just provided you on why the shoe does not fit, to use his cliche - since I dont have time to waste with lowlife like him).

I hope you will understand. If personal insults from strangers on chowk bothered me, I would have left this place a long time ago. But I will not avoid taking on a scoundrel even if ``decent`` chowkies simply ignore him (per your advice).

Ref Mullah32 #380

[harimau: #372 I see that, when presented with a mirror to your face and the true picture of your heroes Modi and Advani, you are reduced to namecalling and writing meaningless cliches. These being the last refuge of the Modiite scoundrel. ha! ha!]

Oh well, I shall wait for your next missive to Sattar2 on who is a True-Green Muslim.

Ref hindvi #385

[tahmed
you are an educated and well read man...]

That he is, well read on the Koran, the only book one needs!

Farzana,
Does anyone even want to co-opt me?? :) All I wanted to say is that it`s easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to some people, but there are other thinking people who might have a valid point. When I heard of the Gudiya story, I thought to myself, inspite of all the razzmatazz in our cities, a panchayat can still tell a woman where to go; to be honest, the Muslim angle hadn`t occurred to me. Does that mean I don`t even think of Muslims, or does that mean I`m enough of an old-school feminist to think of issues only in term of the marginalisation of women? I don`t know the answer to that.
Shanina`s contesting for MLA??Good God!!! I met her a couple of times long ago, and she seemed fairly smart. But certainly not the political kind (I thought her father was a former Congresswalla though?) And her clothes weren`t as outrageously priced as some, though not particularly out-of-the-box, she did a lot of saris. :)

tahmed:
To me, kafir is not a term of hatred; I wear the shoe because it fits. I openly admit to being an agnostic and a non-believer in any prophets or avtars. If this is not the definition of a kafir, what is?
But when I said that I do not mind muslims calling me a kafir, the remark was merely hypothetical. No muslim either at chowk or anywhere else has ever called me a kafir and perhaps dont even think that I am one.

hindvi:
Thanks, but I can do my own apologies when needed!

rajasingh: You are wrong in assuming that all muslims use terms like ``kafir``. In fact, I cannot recall having heard this term used in any serious manner outside of the historical context (i.e. wrt the pre-islamic people in mecca who later converted to islam anyway - including the Quresh tribesmen, who continue to live on in the last name Qureshi that is common among muslims). I challenge you to find any chowk post by any Pakistani (even the couple of well known hindu-haters) that uses this term.

I dont know why an intelligent, mature person like Dost Mittar should even say `` for example I do not have any problem with muslims calling me a kafir because this is what I am by definition. `` The fact is that I dont think anyone has ever called him by this name on chowk as far as I can remember. Indeed, the only time his religion was even made an issue was by one poster who then apologized as I recall.

And Dost Mittar also has the benefit of actually visiting Pakistan and enjoying for himself the hospitality and warmth with which he was recieved and which he reported on, and so his forgetting all that hand slipping into this negative stereotyping of muslims is even more mystifying.

This invalid attribution of hostility by muslims where none exists is part of the demonization that makes it easy to then beat up on them. No wonder you people have so many communal problems in India when you are bent on demonizing your minority populations. Coming to chowk has made me realize the value of being a Pakistani.

tahmed
you are an educated and well read man, why do you have to respond with personal insults, just ignore someone if they are becoming uncivil.

Raj Singhji
mein dostmittar sahib ki taraf se aap se maafi mangta hoon.

tahmed
you are an educated and well read man, why do you have to respond with personal insults, just ignore someone if they are becoming uncivil.

Raj Singhji
mein dostmittar sahib ki taraf se aap se maafi mangta hoon.