The Doll’s House

Hi Farzana,

had a really bad day huh? What else could be the reason for that disappointing article? I have always enjoyed your work, and did not quite expect that rant from you. Yes Muslims have it tough in India, a fact many of us would like to forget. But don`t you think Muslims should fight back and demand the rights given to them as citizens of a ``secular democratic republic``. I know it is hard to take on the burdens of a people and it must be ard to see your community slandered by those who seem even more cruel and backward and mysogynist. But what can the second largest muslim population in the world do? Leave the country? Who will take you. Arabs look down on Indian and Pakistani muslims. The west unfortunately is becoming less of an option. Jeena yahan marna yahan. So fight the good fight and fight it well, with all the reason and passion and righteousness you are capable of. Don`t whine and rant and talk about non issues (Muslim women wearing less clothes, they were always there, from nautch gals to Zeenat Aman to whoever). Talk about jobs, talk about education, talk about police brutality, talk about how hard it is for a muslim to rent an apartment out of the ghetto, about how Muslim businesses suffer, about riots. If all you can whine about is polygamy and muslim women should be modest and so on, well you are just another sterortyped muslim who wants to shut the world out and complain about things that no one else takes seriously.

It must be tiring though to be told what to do. SOmetimes we just need to vent. SO write but sleep on it and edit it before you let the world see it. you can do better.

FV,

If you sincerely want to initiate a dialogue amongst Hindus, why not publish the same article in an Indian magazine?? That way, not many `communal hindus` feel the need to take potshots at Pakistan. BTW, I am still waiting to hear from you, regarding my earlier post.

Kewlfi
bang on target

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I observed one common line of reasoning among loosers....


* They justify their worse behavior by pointing out someone else`s worst behavior. There is a reason why some people are generally loosers ( sandN***grs come to my mind immediately ).

Farzana, you`re getting hilarious! Why don`t you quote a full arabic prayer to start your post!
Alright, back to business:

You said:
``none of the subjects that are mentioned are talked about as exclusively Hindu problems, no pundits are invited into the studios to hold forth on dowry, child marriage, caste wars, dalits. Get it? ``

:> Because pundits don`t issue fatwa as to what people should wear and which direction they should face.
If mullahs can guide to troubles, they should also be able to guide out of it, don`t they?

You said:
“Any soldier, irrespective of his religion, who has suffered on enemy territory and comes back home, deserves the respect, praise and glory. Again since you`re not ready to consider him a hero, there is again a question if you really consider Pakistan ``an enemy`` in case of war. It also looks like that you want to discourage any Indian muslim joining Indian army.” (Why is respect, praise and glory not given to the others…and I am not even talking about the coffin deal…what I think of our PoWs has been substantiated in the most detailed manner in an article here in ‘1971: A forgotten story’.)

:> What you just did is digressing from the original question and jumping off to someting totally irrelavent. Original question was ``What`s wrong with treating arif as a hero?`` and you came up with? ``Why praise not given to others``, ``not even talking about coffin`` and ``POWs of 1971``.

This is according to well-known pattern among religious fanatics and mud-slingers like you, who knows how to stir hornet `s nest and run away, and when faced with questions, come out with totally irrelavent issues trying to divert the tone and substance of the discussion.

I ask you again:
What was wrong with treating Aarif as a hero?
Do you consider Pakistan an enemy in case of war with it?

You said:
``“You have a problem being an Indian, you have a problem being woman... you actually have a problem being a Human being. You should have actually been a Houri for your Jihadi heros. (Ha, nice post I guess... may be you will find a job application in a Madarassah)”"

:> You can give a try to Bharat-Natyam, it would really sanitize you.

You said:
``Naipaul is hated because he says in public what most non muslims said in private. though times have changed.” (Thanks, I knew this to be true. And times haven’t really changed all that much…aap ko hi le lo…) ``

:> Naipaul is an intelligent scholar and hated by fanatics, whose time froze sometime in 640s. You seem to be one of the later.

You said:
``“You want to discuss the problems? OK Let`s start. Start listing what are they and what`s your problem with that. I am sure it would be another derivative from mullah manual.” (You have already decided what you will get, so why even bother to ask?) ``

:> There you go, Yet another hit and run affair. If you don`t have guts to support your deluded psycho-babbles, stop killing net bandwidth, for Krishna`s sake!

You said:
``We define knowledge differently. There is still a grey area of discussion whether these are sciences or not…if you want many courses, then you cannot have problems with madrassas…the children there learn to move their head back and forth several times…scientifically speaking, this should make them more flexible. ``

:> Madrassah are not regulated by government, there is no process of accreditation, much of of the syllbus sows seeds of hatred.

As far as moving head back and forth is concerned, I remember studying that similar signs are also displayed by some of the mentally disabled people as well.
BTW its also part of my regular gym warmup routine, why bother for madrassa then?
Join in!!!

You said:
``Now you know why I said dangerous? Look at your own diatribe and look at what I had quoted after my statement. Belonging to the mainstream automatically means IMs are not thought to be a part of it. Why? When you talk about approx 150 million people living, working here, what do you mean by “fit in”?``

:> Come one, be objective. When asked a question, don`t point to vague references. Be explicit.
Tell me now: What`s wrong with IMs being part of mainstream when you have christians, sikhs, jains, parsis ... and so on.

You said:
``This was my question. But thanks for putting your foot in your mouth and conveying what I indicated…every act of Islamic terrorism stops at the IM door. Re. Kashmir: read up on the genesis of terrorism there. ``

:> What foot and what mouth? Close your slang book and answer the question.
If IMs can shout out for Palestine and Chechya, why not a single IM has come forward condemning targeted killing of innocent Hindus is kashmir?
Are your bonds with foregin muslims thicker than those with your conutrymen?
Kashmir has well-known source of terror, and your general has already promised to curb it.

You said:
``See, there! This is arrogance. I can’t do a thing when Hindus are suspicious. And I can’t do a thing if I suspect Hindus…I can’t do anything, right? Just be called a terrorist. ``

:> If neutering a terrorist is arrogance then I am MOST arrogant.
If you think supporting a terrorist is what you need, by all means, go ahead! don`t waste your time arguing with me.

You said:
``No, I asked you about Hindu leaders, leaders that represent the Hindu community just as you and your ilk ask us to find good leaders from among the Muslim community. India is not automatically a Hindu nation, therefore it is time you saw the difference. ``

:> Here you clearly show that you`re Pakistani. We don`t label leaders as Hindu or muslim leaders in India, like you do. That`s why I said we need good ``leaders``. So remove your religous goggles and see the world in its true flair.

You said:
``Right. But discussing ‘Muslim bashing’ is immature and whining, right? What if I say ‘Hindu bashing’ is not a “real problem”, but just the latest tearjerker? ``

:> But if terrorist are muslims, then bashing a terrorist and their ideology is mature and our upmost duty, isn`t it? Now if you want to take this as muslim bashing cry over it, enjoy it most!

You said:
``[``* How can they make a noise about the sad plight of Muslim girls when statistically there are more instances of female infanticide, child marriages among Hindus than cases of Hyderabad girls being forced to marry Arabs? ``
Can you pls. quote the source of statistics? Again sickness is sickness, wherever you call it? But it all depends on the reliability of the source.]
Google. Malayala Manorama Yearbook. ``

:> I saw it and there is absolutely nothing! Shunya, Nada, zilch, zero! This is rather a weekly publication concerning local issuer.

Farzana, where the heck you can get all India statistics at this state-level site?
Post the link of the source of your ``revolutionary, ground-breaking, earth-shattering statistics`` or stop your psuedo-spawned ideas misdirecting others!!!!!!!!!!

You said:
````* Why do they harp on Muslim men marrying four times when bigamy is more common among Hindus? ``
Bigamy is illegal, frowned upon, discouraged and conisdered an evil.
In Islam, polygamy is enocuraged, worshipped and sanctioned by mullahs.
Your take?]
‘Just because someone else is sick you want to stay sick?’ (!!) ``

:> So you admit that you support polygamy, don`t you? You`re getting interesting!

Another thing funny about you is, you pick words from my replies and give it back to me, can`t believe you just cut and paste my sentence to me!!!!
English has 150000+ words, and you can`t come out with decent sentences???

You said:
``I will have to take the whole of North East India, the Dalits, Bengalis, Sikhs, Parsis, Chinese, Bastar tribals, Malayalees, Gujaratis, vegans, vegetarians, pork eaters, beef eaters, lotus eaters, Gurumayi devotees, catholic missionaries, Bene Israelis, Malabar Hill and Malegaon…each is a ghetto of sorts. I will leave the Brahmins and Kasmir behind…theek hai? Then I would like to see who will be blamed for what… now you may wake up from your dream…I am still here, but you are not. Surprised? ``

:> What do you think, it`s popbai`s raj that you would take whatever you like? Are you in vegetable market, where you get to choose what you would take and what you wouldn`t?

Guess what, I belong to one the categories you listed, and you want to take me with in the Shit-hole next door? No way!!!

You said:
``Curiosity. And how does one cut a religion? Share your experiences, please``

:> I said ``cure it or cut it`` in a proverbial sense. Hello!!!! Don`t you get it?
About curiosity, it`s part of adolescence life, matured adults know where to direct it, so grow up.
About sharing experiences, why don`t you start with ISKCON? Give me your email address and I will forward you a link. I promise, you would cherish it for life.

``I am glad I wrote this article. ``
Thank yourself for baseless, deluded, illogical, fanatic and deceitful piece of junk slur.

#118 hindvi,

I went through and read all (well most anyway) your writing and on the issue of detoriating physical safety of muslims in India I can understand the pain. The enduring image in my mind is of police constable`s reading ``Samna`` as they stood on duty during the Mumbai `93 riots.

(``Samna`` is the official publication of the Shiv Sena).

hindvi

``look at the constabulary or clerical staff. these dont require graduate degrees. I have been in small mofussil towns in UP and seen how recruitment is done in RPF, PAC etc. ``

i took it from an old thread but is relevant to this thread. have SP of mulayam or RJD etc helpful in this matter? i know RPF and PAC are under home ministry, but police is a state recruitment. this is an important enough issue. just recently the shiv-sainiks were bitching about biharis being hired by railways for working in maharashtra as linemen by laloo. railways apparently could not fill the jobs as they were too low-paid by maharashtra standards, so they got the applicants for interview by a trainload. this to me is good politics, however controversial, as opposed to mulayam making friday half day.

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hindvi

no, bhakti poets did not talk about ram janmabhoomi, they made commentries which refered to muslim (yavan) kings as idol-breakers and opressors. they also referred to brahmin religious dogma as opressive. they however did not refer to hindu kings as opressors. they perhaps formed a collective memory.

my point being, there is an all-pervasive belief that invading muslim armies broke temples. i offer one explaination. this belief is not one merely taught by shakhas which are miniscule, and hindus dont get this belief from shakhas. articles written in frontline will demystify the belief somewhat, but i suspect not. most likely other contrary articles will appear from mr kak. after all, there is plenty of material from gazni to khilji to afzalkhan to selectively pick from. it was easy picking for bjp to channel that. i agree that constitutionally muslims should not have to pander to every new whim and fancy (theoretically) of sangh, but reality is that ayodhya did catch imagination of wide janata, which otherwise is divided in caste, cuisine, biradari, language and choice of zarda for their pan. this was not becuase shakhas effectively indoctrinated people (shakha enrollemnt has been declining for ever and is now mostly over sixty crowd). the sentiment was always there, and a few dedicated karsevaks from shakhas was all that was needed.

so my contention is that looking at shakhas as a fountainhead is inaccurate (as arjun says who the hell is gowalkar?)

stuka,

``.....erm, does the term PAKISTAN come to mind? If you recollect, the leaders of Muslim League were Indian Muslims ie UP, Gujarat etc. Us Punjabis were living peacefully side by side ruled by Unionists who had Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in Government. But Poorbiya Muslims could not live in peace. ``

LOL...so, the whole Hindu population is all antsy and paranoid over TNT v2.0? Is that it?! Dude...the more you ask, the more you validate that idea. Treat us like Indians and guess what...we`ll be Indians.

BUT, if Hindu bigots don`t like Muslims in their midst, then they can freak-off...why don`t THEY leave...and that`s the point. Like it or not, we`re all ethnically from India, so this BULLSHIT of Hindus having some kind of birth right over India is just that....a load a `holy shit`. So....are they Hindu or Indian first? I would like to know...

IMO, it puts certain people in a very bad temper not to get unquestioning deferrence from nonMuslims. The problem is that Muslims get unquestioning deference from nonMuslims only in Pakistan so the entire party have condemned itself to suffer endless frustration and disappointment in the world outside Pakistan. Your funeral.


Farzana, I seem to remember you protested about how much I was imposing on you by expressing my opinion on an article, though it was an article you hadn`t written and weren`t commenting on at all. Well, this article you have written, and my reply is loong, so better call out the Amnesty International.

Hope you remember that Zee TV and Indian media also made a big deal of the bride who called off her wedding and called the police on her groom for his dowry demands. Did anyone complain about Zee making a spectacle of the Indian Hindu and his regressive marriage customs?

If anything, the publicity/airing of dirty linen about dowry and the public conversation it set off across India was widely seen as a small victory against the ugly pervasive reality of dowry demands. I also do not recall any outrage at tom-tomming of the severe female-male imbalance and huge incidence of female foeticide, by the media, by politicians (who pubically called on SGPC for help, for example), by concerned government officials(`even married women will not be safe in future`) and by personalities like Amartya Sen(`20 million missing Indian women`). Talking a LOT in public about a problem is a REQUIRED part of tackling the problem in a democracy, there is no other way.

Perhaps many would prefer not face another ugly pervasive reality - that Muslim Indian women are often forced to defer to scriptural law over and above their individual wishes and interests. That this is only part of a wider reality of lack of rights of all Indian women, not just Muslim women, the TV viewing audience definitely has enough personal knowledge of this to put it in proper context instead of seeing it as totally Muslim-specific. And wouldn`t Zee TV make its programming choices to cater to its Muslim audience too ?

Zee`s programming choice was however unelightened and horrendous but did Zee TV do the `forcing` in Gudiya`s case or did it only provide a window to a forcing process affecting women all over the country?

Gudiya`s private life was made into a tasteless spectacle. Unfortunately tasteless violation of her privacy is not the greater crime against Gudiya. The greater crime against her is that by `modern` standards (which presumably you and I enjoy) the only person who should have the power to decide about herself was Gudiya but she wasn`t given that power, while the whole nation just sat and watched. And feminists too appear to have gone underground as part of the `secular` double standards I suspect.

The whole nation is complicit in this crime, but by your own argument that `Hindus shouldn`t dare interfere with Muslims`, only Indian Muslims can do anything about it. So what are Indian Muslims doing about it? Talk about that for a change. You might then understand the talk about lack of good Muslim leaders.

What if leaders are mainly concerned with increasing the Haj subsidy not increasing schools and hostels for Muslim girls? What if they take out jathas on defending Sharia-inspired marriage law for Muslim women and say nothing about denial of Muslim women`s equal rights to security, education and opportunity which is their due as Indian citizens? ?

Hindus suffer from bad leaders too, but on average they have a lot more choice. Muslim-specific issues suffer disproportionately from bad leaders because Muslim communities are isolated in numerically small groups all over country and because Muslim religious leadership is quite influential even in social matters such as women`s rights, contraception and elementary education.

As for exhorting Muslims to `join the mainstream`- why is that such a crime. When we are told that Muslims are doing worse than Hindus, in terms of education, income, employment, health, wanting Muslims to be part of the mainstream means wanting them to do as well or as badly as other Indians in these matters.

How can that happen if many Muslims insist on isolating themselves from schools and hospitals and from modern education ?

India ranks first in the world in polio cases, most of those cases occur among Muslim communities where despite WHO special attention and best efforts of health workers, religious leaders tell distrustful Muslim parents to refuse the polio vaccines.

What is Muslim female literacy, is it anywhere close to the national average for female literacy? Do Muslim females have more or less access to health care and schooling than nonMuslim females? Do Muslim women have more or less reproductive rights than other Indian females? Do young Muslims have more or less access and assistance for higher education than other Indians? Do they have more or less access to employment once they get that education?

What is the harm in asking these questions in public and making leaders accountable? And aren`t there Muslims too in the intended audience who are interested to know the answers?

And why do you and your Paki friends keep insisting that mainstreaming invariably means making adjustments in Muslim religious belief and practice? PM Manmohan Singh is a good example of being in the `mainstream`, from a farming family he rose to become head of RBI, Finance Minister and then Prime Minister of a nonSikh majority country- did he have to compromise his personal religious belief and practice anywhere for this? Is it so wrong to want many Muslim Manmohan Singhs in the `mainstream` ?

It wouldn`t surprise me if your and Pakis` (il)logic is that India is a kafir-majority country, so for kafirs to want more Muslims to get into the `impure kafir mainstream` as PM and CM or RBI chiefs is an outrage and violation of Muslims` god-given right to hate kafirs and hold them at a distance.

If so, that snobbish attitude condemns Indian Muslims to eternal isolation from the larger multi-religious society they live in. You should instead trust them to use their own best judgement to pursue all possible avenues for advancement in the only country they have, India. If either choice is not acceptable, I will only point out that despite the global tendency in religious rhetoric, Indian Muslims too by fatalistically waiting waiting waiting for Islamic rule to arrive and sweep away the jahil/kafir impurities in their midst are playing too long a shot.