The Doll’s House

Vertex : I don`t know much about pakiland, but I know that those Muslims who prosper in modern India do so (in/dis)spite of Hinduism.

Dude, seriously, you should know about Pakiland and B`desh before you can say this. Muslims prosper not in vaccum but because of the systems created by educated Indians(vast majority being Hindus) and the openness society has shown.

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To FV you asked: ``(w)hy is ``respecting`` the culture/religion/language of the land such a scary thing for you ?``

It`s not. What`s scary is when people demand you respect, and their notion of respecting is adopting and accepting as part of practice.

((>>> How exactly ? In India the DEMAND is not for respect to Hinduism. We are yet to get there. It`s to NOT DISRESPECT Hinduism. Geddit ??))


Sorry, but I`m not interested in Hinduism`s polythestic or mythic aspects.
(( No problems, you are welcome too. After all it`s vasudhaika kutumbamu.
There`s room for you too. Or is that too scary as FV seems to think ??)

Newsflash: demanding Muslims accept anything from hinduism is no less ``tolerant`` than Muslims demanding Hindus ``accept`` islam`s strict monotheism.

((Very funny, demanding that a Muslim NOT DISRESPECT Krishna, Rama and Sanskrit etc is INTOLERANT then ?? Ha, So I can go to Saudi and say Muhammad is a cheat ?? Besides Islam is not doing any earth shattering by saying that there`s only one god. Again, please understand - no I have no intensions of converting you, be who you are but try to be a good human being - Hinduism before levelling baseless charges))

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That quote you and FV presented is just plain dumb, since one faith group demanding change from another is hardly understood as an example of tolerance, wheather it`s in Pakistan, Saudi, America or India.

((FV is dumb ?? I disagree. She`s poisonous... very negative in her approach. As someone rightly pointed out, she`s plain frustrated !!! ))

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Now, does that mean I can`t respect others who decide to follow another faith? There`s this ``you have your religion, I have mine`` kind of respect, but you guys don`t want that do you?

((Ha ?? Where did this come from ?? Arapic religion and respect for Kafirs ?? Ok, chalo, let`s assume you are different from the flock. Even then, when I say you have yours...you are interfering with law of the land: Shah bano......progress: Family planning....... long story short, you want a law within a law wherever you are.

Again, you should look at Islamic treatment of Hindus (Pakistan and B`desh) being case in point Vs Indian (Hindian) treatment of Muslims. If you still whine, then no wonder there`s a talk of ``victim mentality`` in Islam))

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You demand we buy into the ``my religion is Indian, yours is not...so you better take as much of mine as you can so I can bless you with the title Indian`` kind of `respect`.

((Nonsense.........what can we do ?? Invasions happened long time back - it`s something that we can`t undo. Yes we can get the temples back, but we can`t go back and beat up Ghazni etc. So, we live in peace, in reality....let`s live like brothers......yes you heard me right.....so what`s the starting point ???

1) Don`t screw up my peace because Palestine, Saddam, Turkey etc are not my headache
2) Respect national symbols and constitution
3) Stop conversions
4) Family planning
5) Hey Ram, where will the list end ...... ?? ))


Screw that. In the modern nation state of India, Islam is as Indian as Hinduism is.
((Partly True.........so what`s the point ?? Shariat over Indian constitution ??)

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If Hindu bigots don`t feel that way, then they can do the world a favor and die so they can take it up with the founding fathers in their next lives.

(( They have no where to go .....between Kashmir and KanyaKumari, they have always lived and they will always live. Your trip is easier, across the border....chances are you can become a president and do a Kargil over Hindus and patriotic muslims - thanx ))

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Abdul Kalam: Chad yaar.........so reading Gita is a problem with you ?? You too should read.......let knowledge come to you from all sides. I will read Quran one day - I`m really curious as to what`s good that it offers that`s not been there in scriptures of earlier religions. Ofcourse, I will skip the ``kill jews / infidels`` part

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vertex:
But it raises a point...why is it that no Hindu is ever asked to confirm their Indianness, whereas Muslims are almost always asked if they are Muslim or Indian first?
(( I don`t support this. It`s not right. Were you ever asked this question ?? ))

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Vertex : I don`t know much about pakiland, but I know that those Muslims who prosper in modern India do so (in/dis)spite of Hinduism.

Dude, seriously, you should know about Pakiland and B`desh before you can say this. Muslims prosper not in vaccum but because of the systems created by educated Indians(vast majority being Hindus) and the openness society has shown.

................................................

To FV you asked: ``(w)hy is ``respecting`` the culture/religion/language of the land such a scary thing for you ?``

It`s not. What`s scary is when people demand you respect, and their notion of respecting is adopting and accepting as part of practice.

((>>> How exactly ? In India the DEMAND is not for respect to Hinduism. We are yet to get there. It`s to NOT DISRESPECT Hinduism. Geddit ??))


Sorry, but I`m not interested in Hinduism`s polythestic or mythic aspects.
(( No problems, you are welcome too. After all it`s vasudhaika kutumbamu.
There`s room for you too. Or is that too scary as FV seems to think ??)

Newsflash: demanding Muslims accept anything from hinduism is no less ``tolerant`` than Muslims demanding Hindus ``accept`` islam`s strict monotheism.

((Very funny, demanding that a Muslim NOT DISRESPECT Krishna, Rama and Sanskrit etc is INTOLERANT then ?? Ha, So I can go to Saudi and say Muhammad is a cheat ?? Besides Islam is not doing any earth shattering by saying that there`s only one god. Again, please understand - no I have no intensions of converting you, be who you are but try to be a good human being - Hinduism before levelling baseless charges))

---

That quote you and FV presented is just plain dumb, since one faith group demanding change from another is hardly understood as an example of tolerance, wheather it`s in Pakistan, Saudi, America or India.

((FV is dumb ?? I disagree. She`s poisonous... very negative in her approach. As someone rightly pointed out, she`s plain frustrated !!! ))

---

Now, does that mean I can`t respect others who decide to follow another faith? There`s this ``you have your religion, I have mine`` kind of respect, but you guys don`t want that do you?

((Ha ?? Where did this come from ?? Arapic religion and respect for Kafirs ?? Ok, chalo, let`s assume you are different from the flock. Even then, when I say you have yours...you are interfering with law of the land: Shah bano......progress: Family planning....... long story short, you want a law within a law wherever you are.

Again, you should look at Islamic treatment of Hindus (Pakistan and B`desh) being case in point Vs Indian (Hindian) treatment of Muslims. If you still whine, then no wonder there`s a talk of ``victim mentality`` in Islam))

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You demand we buy into the ``my religion is Indian, yours is not...so you better take as much of mine as you can so I can bless you with the title Indian`` kind of `respect`.

((Nonsense.........what can we do ?? Invasions happened long time back - it`s something that we can`t undo. Yes we can get the temples back, but we can`t go back and beat up Ghazni etc. So, we live in peace, in reality....let`s live like brothers......yes you heard me right.....so what`s the starting point ???

1) Don`t screw up my peace because Palestine, Saddam, Turkey etc are not my headache
2) Respect national symbols and constitution
3) Stop conversions
4) Family planning
5) Hey Ram, where will the list end ...... ?? ))


Screw that. In the modern nation state of India, Islam is as Indian as Hinduism is.
((Partly True.........so what`s the point ?? Shariat over Indian constitution ??)

---

If Hindu bigots don`t feel that way, then they can do the world a favor and die so they can take it up with the founding fathers in their next lives.

(( They have no where to go .....between Kashmir and KanyaKumari, they have always lived and they will always live. Your trip is easier, across the border....chances are you can become a president and do a Kargil over Hindus and patriotic muslims - thanx ))

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Abdul Kalam: Chad yaar.........so reading Gita is a problem with you ?? You too should read.......let knowledge come to you from all sides. I will read Quran one day - I`m really curious as to what`s good that it offers that`s not been there in scriptures of earlier religions. Ofcourse, I will skip the ``kill jews / infidels`` part

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vertex:
But it raises a point...why is it that no Hindu is ever asked to confirm their Indianness, whereas Muslims are almost always asked if they are Muslim or Indian first?
(( I don`t support this. It`s not right. Were you ever asked this question ?? ))

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#126 sadna on September 29, 2004 3:08pm PT

Sadhna, welcome back. That was a great post.

CORRECTION:
Newsflash: demanding Muslims accept anything from hinduism is no less ``tolerant`` than Muslims demanding Hindus ``accept`` islam`s strict monotheism.

((Very funny, demanding that a Muslim NOT DISRESPECT Krishna, Rama and Sanskrit etc is INTOLERANT then ?? Ha, So I can go to Saudi and say Muhammad is a cheat ?? Besides Islam is not doing any earth shattering by saying that there`s only one god. Again, please understand - no I have no intensions of converting you, be who you are but try to be a good human being - Hinduism before levelling baseless charges))

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Apologies for the faux pas......above should read....

((Very funny, demanding that a Muslim NOT DISRESPECT Krishna, Rama and Sanskrit etc is INTOLERANT then ?? Ha, So I can go to Saudi and say Muhammad is a cheat ?? Besides Islam is not doing anything earth shattering by saying that there`s only one god. Seriously, it`s been said by many religions before Islam including yours truly`s much maligned Hinduism. Again, please understand - no I have no intensions of converting you, be who you are but try to be a good human being - please read on Hinduism before levelling baseless charges))

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FV:
[``* Why do they harp on Muslim men marrying four times when bigamy is more common among Hindus? ``
Bigamy is illegal, frowned upon, discouraged and conisdered an evil.
In Islam, polygamy is enocuraged, worshipped and sanctioned by mullahs.
Your take?]

‘Just because someone else is sick you want to stay sick?’ (!!)

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Please read this a few times.

If you repeatedly defy the law of the land and ask for a different law (Muslim personal law), I do have every reason to believe that one day you will want a separate nation with a different law (Partition is too fresh to be forgotten).

That`s what we mean by joining the mainstream. If you are sick, take a Doctor`s :-))) help...and join mainstream.

Frankly, I see no reason why INDIA should go thru partitions because of some religoin born in Arapic lands. Past is past.........for good or for worse we are in one country.. let`s stay together.........Asking for shariat in India (defying family planning, shah bano, damaging hindu property because of stupid western invasion in Arapic lands etc are symptoms which will eventually lead there) is not on and you are pushing the wrong buttons. Godhra begets Gujarat. Peace and love beget Peace and Love.

Practise your religion by all means but hate me not coz of your religion. Besides if you can embrace Islam why can`t you embrace your native culture / religion / language (again....embrace in the latter part means respect.......one has to be careful with you Ms.Spinister)

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Ali_1 #103,

The Gujarat riots and the associated violence was shameful beyond belief. This
particular event that you mention, however, could be an urban legend. Although,
violence of comparable magnitude did occur.

``I am not part of the `wah-wah` crowd, I can`t judge if Farzana has stated the
complete truth, half-truth or just put a spin on events. But it is easy to judge the
reactions of Indian interactors..``

Why do you think this article elicited such a strong reaction (I wouldn`t call it any
more rabid than any other contentious chowk article) ? Is it because Farzana
is a Muslim daring to speak the truth (which you agree you cannot judge) ?

(Who are you? Why must I join someone who sounds the way you do? Have I asked you to join me? If by ‘us’ you mean Indians, then I am not sure I want YOU to join us. And why not bring down the Taj Mahal too, it is said it was built on a destroyed temple? But everyone wants to showcase pretty stuff that brings in the money.)

TR: You have a problem that I`m angry with Babur, Ghazni, Ghori etc etc. They are first rate bastar&s. You should join me in being angry......that`s if you have a passion for your country. (you do not have to go on dharnas etc........don`t try any drama here)

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If by ‘us’ you mean Indians, then I am not sure I want YOU to join us.

TR: Ha ?? Nahin..........I want to be part of religion that accepts yuor route as yours. How about joining mainstreamas Rafiq Zakaria says and reaping the benefits that successful patriotic muslims did. Rather than endless whining and outpouring of negative energy ??))

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FV, I`m tired......you have no logic in your approach. Lava spewing out coz of a cancerous heart and thoughts is what I can think of. Seriously, you are not offering any constructive solutions. Please stop contact with Commies, Mullahs, P Sec, JNU wallahs and Missionaries....not to mention too much indulgence with ISI and D gang. I bet my life you will be OK in no time and you too will like a Shah rukh, Salman, Azim Premji, Abdul Kalam etc......shine and beacon to not just Muslims, but to all Indians.

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FV:
“IMs have a history of creating trouble in India when some incident happens in Far away Islamic lands (Palestine, Iraq, Turkey?? etc).” (Define trouble.)


TR: Ostrich mentality ?? I can pull out some links. But I have personal experiences of protests in engineering college all coz Bsuh thumped Saddam. Huh.

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FV:
I have been consistently asked on this board that I should be writing about the problems with Muslims. How many people ask Hindu writers to write about the problems within their community?

TR: What a liar !!! Hindian culture / society over a period of time has evolved. We still have problems.....but we have reformers coming from age to age and we move forward !! Not perfect....but progress for sure. Adi Sankara`s encounter with a Chandala itself is an example. With the belief that Islam itself is perfect and that no reform needs to be done is regressive. Rafiq Zakaria is trying his little bit...help him if you can. Don`t bother about us.......for every b*igot we had, our society threw up a stronger reformer. Join us (no don`t change your religion - that`s not what i meant) in progress or perish

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sadna
You said it.

``Mainstreaming`` of IMs is a good thing - it must be promoted and welcomed.
The ghettoisation of IMs must end. Ghettoisation breeds misunderstanding
where as mainstreaming brings in understanding and conciliation - it helps
close The gap between commnunities.

``Mainstreaming`` does NOT dilute identity - that sort of BS has been the main
reason for why IMs are lagging behind.

IM communities have a lot of baggages and cobwebs hidden within them -
because of lack of any kind of significant reform movements. All those things must be removed - all the dirty linen must be exposed. There should be pressure from inside and outside to effect these changes.

Since Farzana feels bad if she does not hit a century of interacts, let me add one more to her account....

Farzana ji, century ho gayi... ab khush?....come on, cheer up now..

Sadna #126,

Very cogently put. As I`ve said before - we`d all gain from Zafar, you and Alephnull
contributing more regularly here.

Vertex #127,

``LOL...so, the whole Hindu population is all antsy and paranoid over TNT v2.0?
Is that it?! Dude...the more you ask, the more you validate that idea. Treat us like
Indians and guess what...we`ll be Indians.``

You`re absolutely right. Muslim Indians shouldn`t have to go through some litmus
test of token patriotism everytime Pakistan beats India in a cricket match. It is
shameful that they have been repeatedly put to this test for the last 60 years. An
optimist would say that our secularism is still in the early stages of evolution.

I think that the paranoia stems from the supposed supra-national loyalty that a (not
so small) fraction of Muslims claim to have. You may dismiss this as fantasy, but
a confluence of recent events and general demogoguery from the middle East has
made this a matter of genuine concern for many non-Muslims. Now, there could
well be no local support for any of this in India, but that needs to be articulated by
some very persuasive politicians and community leaders. I realise this plays right
into some sort of identity politics (Hindu leaders/Muslim leaders), but don`t see a way
out of this in this particular case.

sri: the same people who refer to arabs as sandn**s (that is the handful of white supremacist nuts) would consider you to be a couple of rungs lower than them. This namecalling seems to be a disease with many indian posters. Please try to shake out of it and act like the grown up man that I am sure you are. (Just out of curiousity, have you ever called an arab a sandn**r to his face? or is this high and mighty language reserved for them only from the safety of the internet).

Vertex:
Correction: a proper analogy if some mysterious site in, say, Lebanon was thought to be the site of the Ka`ba, and a church was standing there instead. Okay, I thought about it...and I don`t feel the pain. Sorry...


TR: No No No......please keep this site mysterious. I want nothing less than Mecca and Madinah. Let them half broken and let a glorious church stand so that for 100 generations, Muslims see/ hear the tragedy. You still don`t want to build a Masjid there ? You sure your bretheren will agree ??

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Vertex:
Okay, I thought about it...and I don`t feel the pain. Sorry...


TR: I don`t know where you are coming from. But a national flag is also a piece of cloth that you can wipe your a&se with. If you belong to this school of thought, then we have no argument. We can move on. As I said there`s room for all of us here - vasudhaika kutumbamu

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Vertex:
Say what?! Dude...newsflash...Muslims ``lost`` all of India except Pakistan and Bangladesh if your thinking along those foolish lines. India is a modern construct. It never existed prior to 1947. India has no claim over Pakistan or Bangladesh. Nor does it want to. Nor was there ever a unified India prior to that which included all this territory. What kind of backwards thinking is this?


TR: http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305879

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Hi Farzana, I thought that giving a religious spin to the Gudiya/Arif/Taufiq television episode was uncalled for. So I decided to do some investigations . . .

a) The other big story on that day which got buried in most cases had to do with flag-waving by the BJP. Think about it.

b) There have been more than enough television reports on ``Hindu`` issues. Please analyse the websites of the various television channels.

c) One of the reasons that television crews could not play up the (similar) story on the Jagsir Singh/other soldier released was because the villagers simply got tired of the media and blocked access.

I personally think that the Gudiya episode reflects the issue behind the current status of women in some parts of India better, regardless of religion. On an all-India basis, there was a 1-in-7 chance that ``Gudiya`` would have been a Muslim. On a Western U.P. basis, the chances probably increase to 1-in-4.

As I have always said here and elsewhere, India is one country where Muslims have it better than in other countries, especially including Muslim majority countries. I did get this private eMail from a Muslim friend who ran a ``what if`` scenario if something like this had happened in Nigeria, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. (At the very least, stoning to death for adultery in at least two out of these three countries, and relegated to a life as somebody`s chattel in all three.)

I tried re-writing your article without the religious spin, and you know what, maybe you should try it too, from a woman`s point of view, sans religion.

you do love to poke the hornet nest don`t you.....:-)

Farzana,
If we view every human tragedy through a religious and/or caste lens, the chips on our shoulders will be too many.

tahmed32,
You seem to be familiar with the racist mindset. Why do you consider indians two rungs below arabs? Who are the others on this ladder? Please educate us.

veerish
Its sad that u should be published on this website just goes to show the quality here. This is one of the most communally prejudiced statements I have ever heard a journalist (other than the Jhandewalan) type mouth.