The Doll’s House

Farzana - Thank you for penning this insightful and eye-opening article. This is an account of a non-hindu living in the ``shinning`` India. To even imagine myself living in that stiffling environment day in and day out of my life, gives me shudders. Your ``Muslim Mirror vs Hindu Mirror`` was right on the mark.

Great Job.

Hello FV:
You better wake up early rather than noon during the pooja then you could hear azam. You like to drink puss of cow (thats what a cows milk is....yes puss). I hope harshadbhai and deepakbhai are ``majama``.
You are blinded by hatred for hindus. To some aspect your hatred might have a good reason but generalizing hindus is as wrong as generalizing muslims for backwardness.
I believe that Babri Masjid is a dispute between Hindus and Muslims. There are many ways to solve the dispute including philosophy of might is right. But there are also people like sankaracharya that believes that we could settle it out of court. Many disputes are settled out of court with blessing from both the sides. Why is this wrong. If either party does not agree than there is always court. So, Sankaracharya is saying lets discuss the dispute. If we can settle than well and good. (Please dont go about whether Sankaracharya is the rightful representative of hindus or not).
I agree that there could be a more eco-friendly way of Ganesh Visarjan. People should be careful not to offend or hurt anyone during holi by using eco-friendly color and not oil paint. But these activities like Tajiya are where a particular community take part as whole. Thus, one should not be opposed to it.
I havent read the book from Guru Gowalkar. But an average Hindu might expect that like any nation is that if a foreigner comes to a country he adapt himself to it not the other way around. He learn the language being used and obey the laws. Try to assimilate like Parsis have done. Though a foreigner should not be subjected to any injustices. What Hindus expect from non-Hindus is please dont ridicule our Gods. We dont want you to worship our Gods but please show respect to it. Dont start bashing that Ganesh Visarjan/Holi/Govinda should be stopped. There have been numerous cases in the history of India where Hindu temples have been replace to Muslim Masjid or Christian Church. Hindus does not want that to happen again. Hindu culture is a very huge umbrella where eventhough Bengali and Gujarati customs are different but they still fall under the umbrella of Hindu culture.
Your accusations of being ``sub-ordinate`` is completely untrue. No hindus want to rule or govern over a muslim or christian. Can you give me an example when this has happened in recent past?
I dont know the fantasy of V.S. Naipaul but it is a fact that Indian muslims are converted people. They could have converted for any reason being fear or belief.
I cannot understand your paragraph titled ``Islamic terrorism vs. Hindu fundamentalism``. I believe that every Indian should be given a right to free speech be it Bal Thackeray or Narendra Modi or Laloo Prasad or Hurriyat. As long as people dont cause physical or social harm personally it should be okay. I think you are trivialising terrorist activities by including like of togadia.
You can live a mainstream existence even if you follow the religion actively. I dont know how you assumed that one cannot live a mainstream existence by following a religion. Its prejudical against one who is following religion actively.
You will have to define good leader. I think Manmohan singh, ABV, Mufti, Nitish Kumar, Digvijay singh are all good leaders as they want progress of India.
Journalist (even though I dont think you are) should not play with numbers until they have knowledge about statistics. 3.5, 2.9, 78.5, 13.5 are numbers one could easily interpret in their own way.
I am against policy of reservation if it favours one religion because one could easily say a ``sahada`` without meaning.
Muslims regressiveness is a problem so is treatment of dalit. RSS, VHP are very much against the treatment of harijans which is meted out even today. There is still a long way to go but the first step is to acknowledge the problem. Some hindus have acknowledge it while many still needs teaching. But one cannot treat backwardness of India by only treatment of harijans, muslims backwardness is also to be tackled. Your view is that one should not point fingers unless you have solved all your problems. Both are problems and both can treated simultaneously.
Similarly plight of any indian girl should be a concern. Infanticide is biggest sin in India. Killing of unborn child is a sin be it a girl. I dont know how or who is trying to tackle this problem. But does it diminish the problem of arabs marrying teenagers in hyderabad. No, it should also be tackled with the law.
India is divided as per the culinary lines. This is a very childish argument, so I wont answer that.
The reason the secular faces are hindus while discussing a problem in Islam is because there arent many brave muslims to discuss the problem. Only after the killing of innocent children in Beslan the Arab world trying to talk about terrorism within them. There are organization like arya samaj, rss, even Indian government who are discussing the problem in Hinduism. For e.g. Women getting rights to inheritance.
Killings in Godhra, Gujarat, Marad, Akshardham, Kashmir, Bombay and also killings of BJP follower in Bengal by communist are all crimes. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that Hindus are liberal and Muslims are commie.
Arif is a hero because he choose his profession to be an armymen. He would have laid down his life for his country. Dont trivialize his sacrifice because he was caught. Just read the first paragraph of your article. After that you will realize that Dr. Zakaria is right that Muslims should solve the problems with co-operation and not confrontation. What has hindus done to Gudiya. Because of zee tvs broadcast all hindus are evil.
India would love to have secular leaders but not psuedo secular leaders like the communist or congress party for whom if hindu priest is killed its a normal murder but if a nun is attacked then there needs to be CBI investigations.
There needs to be a law in India that theieves and robber of a particular religion should not loot of people of other religion otherwise the criminal will also be considered communalist.
Hindsight is always 20/20. There was no need to include BJP in the mess and your zealous nature included them along with Army. It was unfair that she got paraded in front of a TV channel. If she wants to sue she could do that against the TV channel.
I hope some of your questions were answered and my 80 minutes have not gone in utter vain.

Farzana,

Sincerely, if you took up cricket and played for India (I`m only hoping), you`d knock out Mutthiah Muralitharan`s and Shane Warne`s records in no time. This is one big favour you can do for your country.

SPIN is your nature and SIN is your credo. ``Rape thy mother(India)`` seems to be the motto here.

Islam has not allowed a non muslim to prosper as Sanatana Dharma allowed other religions to prosper.
(Dare to Compare the achievments of Hindus in Pakiland to that of Muslims in India)
Yet, you have a problem with Hindus !!!

You say Beatrice Lamb has RIGHTLY observed....
Ok, Farzana perhaps this Ms.Lamb did not consider Parsis / Jews of India.
Or may be she`s talking about those living in India but not willing to TOLERATE the MAJORITY culture (actually the NATIVE CULTURE....well well you are still not sticking to the outdated AIT or AMT perpetrated by your favourite ``let`s pimp our mother`` JNU wallahs, right ???)
Ever heard of the saying ``More Catholic than Pope`` ??? That`s what some IMs like you do.

Questions to Farzana:
1) ``Hindu in Pakiland`` Vs ``Muslim in India``.... who do you want to be ?

2) ``Freedom of religion to non Hindus in India`` Vs ``Freedom of religion to Hindus in Islamic countries`` (which one`s better ? why ? leave Turkey aside - don`t be so cunning, or am I asking too much)

3) Tolerance of Hinduism Vs Tolerance in Islam (which one do you think is better and why)

4) Why is ``respecting`` the culture/religion/language of the land such a scary thing for you ?
(you quote Ms.Lamb...
Any religion that does not want to be encompassed, embraced and indeed absorbed and perhaps ultimately transformed by Hinduism finds Hindu tolerance somewhat too demanding since it is conditioned upon a basic acceptance of a Hindu view of life and Hinduism’s peculiar genius for absorption.” )

Our president EMBRACED the native culture and yet continues to be a muslim. If there`s any transformation, it`s for the better. Won`t you agree ??? Or did you want to LEGALLY get married and DIVORCED without a trial ??? Or how about realsing that you are the 4th wife of Mr.Khan and LEGALLY unable to challenge him ??? How about Shah Bano ?? Mainstream - now you know what it is ???

Babri Masjid was a structure built by a pathetic apology of a human being over the deadbodies of the natives insulting the native culture. Your blood should boil when you think of this beastly rape to Indians. Yet, you don`t care.

You have a structure in Mecca & Masjid and all the lands where infidels have been wiped out. We have our lands/temples in India. We will build the temple at the same spot where bast*rd Babur raped a culture. You can either join us or join the Rapist. Your call !!!

If you don`t know the pain, I wish you`d go to a Mecca and Madina which has been ravaged by some other religion (say Christianity) - with a church standing on their ruins and feel the pain. Not you but the next 100 generations of Muslims. Won`t you feel like building a Masjid there ? Fair question, right ??

IMs have a history of creating trouble in India when some incident happens in Far away Islamic lands (Palestine, Iraq, Turkey?? etc).

Post partition, IMs have lost nothing (infact they gained much) but Hindus did. As an example, if Hindus had ``X`` sq Kms of land (say from Afghanistan to Kanyakumari.. and Pakistan - incl to B`Desh incl), post Invasion of they lost 20 %. Post partition, they lost another 25%. NOw with Kashmir they will lose another 10 %.

YET YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HINDUISM`s TOLERANCE !!!

HONESTLY FARZANA, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HINDUISM`S TOLERANCE !! A DIFFERENT KIND THOUGH ... WE SHOULD BE MUCH LESS TOLERANT. THAT WAY WE WOULD HAVE PROTECTED OUR LANDS FROM ARAPIC NOMADS AND THEIR STAUNCH FOLLOWERS.

You have a problem being an Indian, you have a problem being woman... you actually have a problem being a Human being. You should have actually been a Houri for your Jihadi heros. (Ha, nice post I guess... may be you will find a job application in a Madarassah)


Do us a favour - Please do not talk about Hinduism and it`s philosophical schools of thought with out knowing what they are !!!

Thankyou everyone... your comments will really help me convince those who think that muslims and hindus can live together.. If this is how you respond to someone pointing a finger through an article then I can only wonder what would have happened if someone would have said something on your face. I have heard alot about how Gujrat was an exception not a rule and that the urban middle class is tolerant. Given that most on this forum claim to belong to this class, it comes as an eye opener that even they, given a chance would comeout of their shells once faced with truth. It was all great and tolerable when a muslim woman was talking about condoms and rights of women, but as soon as the topic switched the reality of the ``enlightened`` people comes forth. Majority of posts are personal attacks and on her nationalism and religion trying to tarnish her image yet not many answer the charges. Very tolerant indeed

Farzana #38,

``This was bound to happen...most Hindus on this board have begun to talk for all
of India, even when some may not be living here...``

Could you please scroll back, look at the interacts prior to this post of yours, and
figure out what fraction of the respondents are Hindu ? Seriously, do it. Then tell us
how many INDIAN non-Hindus broadly agree with you (sorry, Pakistani wah wah`s
don`t count as much on this thread - no offense to anyone from Pakistan) on this
board. It may be instructive.

Once you are done with that, please give us a list (even a vague list will do) of
things that non-Muslim Indians can do to improve the life of Indian Muslims. You
will surely appreciate that any obfuscation here would make your grievances
appear less than genuine.

fv,
.... sorry, i love you too .. so carry on ..... but i must say that muslims in general are not exactly model citizens when they are a minority ..... even here, in the great melting pot of america, they are the proverbial bone in the kebab ..........

hindivi,
........... sorry, bit i can`t drop the ``horrible hindoo`` unless you can suggest something better .......... how about horrid hindoos, or heeng-laced hindoos, or hanuman`s horde ..... naaaa - nothing beats the ``horrible hindoo``...............

....... i have nothing to say, but i wanted to add to the number of interacts

I love the Pakistani Wah Wahs on this thread. The almost orgasmic relief that Indian Muslims are unhappy. :0)

re: this article
This article starts out to analyse the predicament of IMs who, according to the author, are forced to join the mainstream and get co-opted.
Then, there is talk about hindu fundamentalism and quotes from Sir Vidia, and Guru Gowalkar`s (and not Golwalkar as wrongly spelled) book ``We Or Our Nationhood Defined``.
BTW, this book is out of print and few in India have even heard of this guy (whereas everyone knows who Gandhi is) and a miniscule have read this book (published in 1936 i think).
Then the author brings in the Gudia episode, BJP, Zakaria....
Now i know why my head is spinning.
Sridhar

Excellent article. You touch on all the poignant points. In the ``great democracy`` India, being a minority is a curse. Either you have to become part of Hinduism (which as a Sikh I refuse to be, but the BJP and other communal parties would very much like me to be) or you have to be considered a foreigner and a traitor for as long as you live. Moreover, in this very ``democratic nation``, it is so difficult to voice your opinion in the mainstream media for fear of being called a traitor.

I understand and appreciate your views. We need more vociferous people like you out there. Well done.

Simran

BaRa shor sunte thay pehloo meiN dil ka
jo cheera tou ikk qatra-e-khooN na nikla

... where are the champions of freedom of speech...

re:#20 by hindvi
very well said.
But FV does not know the language of conciliation.
Sridhar

re: this article
The author says:
(``Sir Vidia says Arabs are “not fine people”:`` Can you list a few qualities of fine people?)
Read the following to figure out why Sir Vidia may be right:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=404588

(Arab women encouraged Darfur rapes: Amnesty

By Jeevan Vasagar
and MacAskill

NAIROBI/LONDON, JULY 20. While African women in Darfur were being raped by the Janjaweed militiamen, Arab women stood nearby and sang for joy, according to an Amnesty International report published yesterday.

The songs of the Hakama, or the ``Janjaweed women`` as the refugees call them, encouraged the atrocities committed by the militiamen.

The women singers stirred up racial hatred against black civilians during attacks on villages in Darfur and celebrated the humiliation of their enemies, the human rights group said.

``[They] appear to be the communicators during the attacks. They are reportedly not actively involved in attacks on people, but participate in acts of looting.``

Amnesty International collected several testimonies mentioning the presence of Hakama while women were raped by the Janjaweed. The report said: ``Hakama appear to have directly harassed the women [who were] assaulted, and verbally attacked them.``

During an attack on the village of Disa in June last year, Arab women accompanied the attackers and sang songs praising the Government and scorning the black villagers.

According to an African chief quoted in the report, the singers said: ``The blood of the blacks runs like water, we take their goods and we chase them from our area and our cattle will be in their land. The power of [Sudanese President Omer Hassan] al-Bashir belongs to the Arabs and we will kill you until the end, you blacks, we have killed your God.``

The chief said that the Arab women also racially insulted women from the village: ``You are gorillas, you are black, and you are badly dressed.``

The Janjaweed have abducted women for use as sex slaves, in some cases breaking their limbs to prevent them escaping, as well as carrying out rapes in their home villages, the report said.

The militiamen ``are happy when they rape. They sing when they rape and they tell that we are just slaves and that they can do with us how they wish,`` a 37-year-old victim, identified as A, is quoted as saying in the report, which was based on over 100 testimonies from women in the refugee camps in neighbouring Chad. Pollyanna Truscott, Amnesty International`s Darfur crisis co-ordinator, said the rape was part of a systematic dehumanisation of women. The U.N. estimates that up to 30,000 people have been killed in Darfur, and over a million have been forced to flee their homes. Another human rights organisation, Human Rights Watch, today published alleged Sudanese Government documents showing that it was much more closely involved with the Janjaweed than it has so far admitted. The documents, which Human Rights Watch said it had obtained from the civilian administration in Darfur and are dated February and March this year, call for ``provisions and ammunition`` to be delivered to the Janjaweed militia.

Peter Takirambudde, executive director of Human Rights Watch`s Africa division, said: ``These documents show that militia activity has not just been condoned, it`s been specifically supported by Sudan Government officials.`` The official Government line is that it did not arm or support the Janjaweed, though its presence was useful in helping to combat rebels in Darfur. — Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004)
Farzana bibi should be happy she is not an Arab woman.
Sridhar

re: this article
I think this paragraph from the article quintessentially captures the problems of the IMs:
(Beatrice Lamb, the well-known British author, has rightly observed, “Indeed, one characteristic that all Hindus claim for Hinduism is its all-embracing tolerance, its ability to encompass every path, finding a niche for each in the vast scheme of things. From the point of view of certain of the minority religions, this is precisely the difficulty. Any religion that does not want to be encompassed, embraced and indeed absorbed and perhaps ultimately transformed by Hinduism finds Hindu tolerance somewhat too demanding since it is conditioned upon a basic acceptance of a Hindu view of life and Hinduism’s peculiar genius for absorption.” )
The above statement is very true and well expressed by the British author.
Islam is a religio-political entity. It is not just a personal thing. It impinges on a muslim`s everyday affair as well as how he perceives the world thr` this islamic prism. Even in chowk I see IMs like Ballukhan (so refreshingly different from Farzana bibi) who have clearly come out of this narrow prism because they tried to learn something about the people around them, who incidentally happen to be hindus. Will Ballukhan then say he has been coopted? Has not this effort broadened his outlook in life? Has learning more about hindus and hindusim made him a lesser muslim?
I think this is all a question of perception. Hindu religion is willing to embrace other religions if they want to be embraced. It is at peace with itself if others do not want to be embraced. We are forgetting that Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism all sprouted out of this religion in the past and Hindusims has lived through that seperation without a dent or pang of guilt or suffering.

Muslims do have a problem reconciling their religion with modernity. Why is Farzana bibi so much bothered about the dress that a IM woman was wearing on a star search show? Why does religion come in here? Can`t she just see that woman as a potential aspirant who wants to be a Star someday?
And, for God`s sake, why this hullaballoo about Gudia`s marriage? I too saw that show telecast on Zee TV (through the Dishnetwork that i have at home in USA). Zee afforded a platform where all could come and sort out this problem. I think it was a good effort. Even the muslim clergy on the show thought so.
The author says:
``Zee TV virtually dragged these people to the studios and conducted an on-camera panchayat where these decisions were taken. Gudiya remained a mute doll, ....``
Sorry, who forced who? How does Farzana bibi know Gudia was forced? Just because Gudia was a real Gudia in life (a dumb lass) does not mean she was forced. She had the right to say no but i guess she was too dumb for that. Besides, do we know if she was not paid by Zee TV? What was the muslim cleric doing there? Could he not have refused. He actually praised Zee TV!
And, for Pete`s sake, stop this tirade against Zakaria. Zakaria may have faults but he is respected as an Islamic scholar of some repute. I have not seen any useful criticism by this author. Zakaria is in a different league. I hope this author realizes that.

This article, as i have said before, is too long and tedious.
Here, i am reminded of Mao Tsetung`s wise words:
``A loud fart is more effective than a long speech``.
I hope the author of this article never forgets this.
Sridhar

re:#7 by mshergill
``The fact is that despite whatever you may say India is the only country between Italy and Japan that has had a genuine consistent democracy for the last half a century``
Well said.
See what Thomas Friedman has to say in this article from NY Times:
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Politics/Friedman-11-20.htm
Excerpts:
1. (NEW DELHI -- So, class, time for a news quiz: Name the second-largest Muslim community in the world. Iran? Wrong. Pakistan? Wrong. Saudi Arabia? Wrong. Time`s up — you lose.

Answer: India. That`s right: India, with nearly 150 million Muslims, is believed to have more Muslim citizens than Pakistan or Bangladesh, and is second only to Indonesia. Which brings up another question that I`ve been asking here in New Delhi: Why is it you don`t hear about Indian Muslims — who are a minority in this vast Hindu-dominated land — blaming America for all their problems or wanting to fly suicide planes into the Indian Parliament?

Answer: Multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free-market democracy. To be sure, Indian Muslims have their frustrations, and have squared off over the years in violent clashes with Hindus, as has every other minority in India. But they live in a noisy, messy democracy, where opportunities and a political voice are open to them, and that makes a huge difference...)
And, the author quotes M.J.Akbar:
2. (``I`ll give you a quiz question: Which is the only large Muslim community to enjoy sustained democracy for the last 50 years? The Muslims of India,`` remarked M. J. Akbar, the Muslim editor of Asian Age, a national Indian English-language daily funded by non-Muslim Indians. ``I am not going to exaggerate Muslim good fortune in India. There are tensions, economic discrimination and provocations, like the destruction of the mosque at Ayodhya. But the fact is, the Indian Constitution is secular and provides a real opportunity for the economic advancement of any community that can offer talent. That`s why a growing Muslim middle class here is moving up and, generally, doesn`t manifest the strands of deep anger you find in many non-democratic Muslim states.``)
Sridhar

re: this article
This is a long one. I have to reread it. My first impression is: what the heck is she talking about?
Once somebody was talking about why Winston Churchill was such a good writer and orator. Churchil, when he spoke (or wrote an article), spoke on one theme only. He did not mix up a number of issues in one article (or speech). He painted a picture with words. When we hear the word ``The Iron Curtain`` (first used by Churchill) describing the West-Communist divide, we get the picture.
Even Arundhati Roy paints a picture with words. Her description of India ``gyrating her hips for attention of USA`` described the picture of India`s desperate attempt to take advantage of 9/11 pretty well (in the early days before US turned to Pak).
But, Farzana bibi is no churchill. Not even a Roy. My head started to spin by the time i was towards the end of this article.
What is she trying to say?
I will post a detailed reply another time.
Sridhar