The Doll’s House

Vertex:

``why is it that no Hindu is ever asked to confirm their Indianness, whereas Muslims are almost always asked if they are Muslim or Indian first? ``

.....erm, does the term PAKISTAN come to mind? If you recollect, the leaders of Muslim League were Indian Muslims ie UP, Gujarat etc. Us Punjabis were living peacefully side by side ruled by Unionists who had Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in Government. But Poorbiya Muslims could not live in peace.

Jinnah was from Gujarat.

Liaqat Ali Uncle was also from United Provinces....and his political base was there too.



So where are you from Vertex? If you are a Punjabi, tell me and I will stop being in your face. HAHAHA!!!

Sridar,

You prove my point exactly. In India, you are not really free to express your opinion. If you do, you are called ``Pakistani`` (yeah, it`s so convenient to blame all of India`s problems there isn`t it?) or a Khalistani. Of course being a ``true Indian`` you cannot dare raise your voice aganist Bharat Mata. Why are all of you out there to prove what a great liberal country India is. Why can`t we as mature individuals criticize what is truely wrong with India and try and accept the fact that there are minorities in India who are suffering at the hands of the majority? Why do we always have to worship India and all its leaders? Why cannot we criticize them and still be called Indian?? Please grow up and stop accepting being brainwashed by the Indian establishment and begin to think critically for yourself.
And btw, I have no need to prove to you or anyone what my nationality is or what my religious leanings are.

Simran

Sridar,

You prove my point exactly. In India, you are not really free to express your opinion. If you do, you are called ``Pakistani`` (yeah, it`s so convenient to blame all of India`s problems there isn`t it?) or a Khalistani. Of course being a ``true Indian`` you cannot dare raise your voice aganist Bharat Mata. Why are all of you out there to prove what a great liberal country India is. Why can`t we as mature individuals criticize what is truely wrong with India and try and accept the fact that there are minorities in India who are suffering at the hands of the majority? Why do we always have to worship India and all its leaders? Why cannot we criticize them and still be called Indian?? Please grow up and stop accepting being brainwashed by the Indian establishment and begin to think critically for yourself.
And btw, I have to need to prove to you or anyone what my nationality is or what my religious leanings are.

Simran

#95 by hindvi

re flonet articles: they are great. however i must caution that there is a collective memory in hindu mind (which is not due to RSS shakhas) that medieval muslim rulers were ``murtibhanjaks`` (iconoclasts). this is ingrained in minds of wide population (and not just a miniscule shakha goers), mostly i suspect from bhakti poets, since no indian school texts refer to temple desecrations except the somnath. bhakti poets have widely written about medieval muslim rule as -ve, along with -ve commentry on brahminist dogma. so, that is the backdrop. harping on shakhas as a source of indoctrination i believe is misguided. there is a far wider perception which the ayodhya controversy effectively (cynically) gave voice to and channelized into votes.

you may pooh-pah hindus as stupid and emotinally trapped, insecure, or whatever, but understand the ethos. (apparently they are not as emotianlly trapped since not all vote for bjp and many vote bjp for other reasons )

Question:
What ``kind`` of ``humans`` would chase a full term pregnant woman in the streets of Ahmedabad, rape her after getting hold of her, then rip her uterus with a sword, then pull her baby out and impale the wailing newborn on a spear? All this while her family (and the police) are watching. (Jai Bajrang Balli)

Answer:
Exactly the ``kind`` that you witness interacting here.

Reminds one of rabid pye dogs and blood thirsty hyenas chasing their hapless victim, no?

I am not part of the `wah-wah` crowd, I can`t judge if Farzana has stated the complete truth, half-truth or just put a spin on events. But it is easy to judge the reactions of Indian interactors..... and all that comes to mind is ``Thank you Mr. Jinnah, God Bless you for saving me (us, 310 million) from these rabid pye dogs``

Marhabba, ya habibi, wallah al Barakka…yeah, so here is my Saudi connection revealed. Facetious? It is. Just as those who are trying to be too smart and inform us that they discovered about dowry, female infanticide etc through the same media that I accuse of being partisan…that should I not see that these were issues regarding problems with Hindus? Nope. First I asked in my article about why ‘Problem with Hinduism’ is not discussed as opposed to ‘Problem with Islam’…none of the subjects that are mentioned are talked about as exclusively Hindu problems, no pundits are invited into the studios to hold forth on dowry, child marriage, caste wars, dalits. Get it?

Do I speak for myself or all IMs? No one can speak for all people in any context, not even Dr. Zakaria. Do pose that query to him too.
- - -
#20 by hindvi:
[but your tone is not right, this tone cannot lead to a dialogue but only to sensationalism. the same things could have been said in a more conciliatory way, after all these things are common to the subcontinent and indeed to humanity as a whole and not just to hindus. you will offend hindus, many of whom are liberal, also you will make those who are on the border line more defensive no human likes to be reminded of the weaknesses of the group he/she identifies with, it has to be done gently. we have to engage in a dialogue not recrimination.]

Firstly, thanks for your post. I admit that the tone might be offensive, but let me assure you that those who are ‘liberal’ here would not change because of the tone…you have not, there are a few others too. For others, I can see their true colours being revealed time and again, irrespective of the tone I use and the subject I discuss. Let us just say the tone acted as a cathartic agent. You are right that nobody likes to be shown their weaknesses, but IMs are constantly told about what is wrong with them. I have been consistently asked on this board that I should be writing about the problems with Muslims. How many people ask Hindu writers to write about the problems within their community? This article of mine was precisely to upturn these expectations…I have often had fruitful dialogues with some people, but if you see some of the stuff being spouted here, you know that it isn’t an easy task.
- - -
If someone insists on posting responses after he says his head was spinning reading the article I can understand that he would be able to think straight, but here are a few examples of sweeping generalisations based on the very stereotypes they claim not to possess; this therefore only justifies what I have written in the piece…

“I am sure Frazana had her share of Madrassa venom backed by some saudi sheikh.”

“Any soldier, irrespective of his religion, who has suffered on enemy territory and comes back home, deserves the respect, praise and glory. Again since you`re not ready to consider him a hero, there is again a question if you really consider Pakistan ``an enemy`` in case of war. It also looks like that you want to discourage any Indian muslim joining Indian army.” (Why is respect, praise and glory not given to the others…and I am not even talking about the coffin deal…what I think of our PoWs has been substantiated in the most detailed manner in an article here in ‘1971: A forgotten story’.)

“If you think that showing your nail to public doesn`t suit you, you`re free to cover it and roam around like veiled ghost.”

“Can you list a few qualities of fine people? Here`s my take: Honesty, courage, character, respecting every form of life, art. Now you tell me, have you seen any of these in any of the conspicuous arabs? I haven`t. What I have seen is, arabs sitting on oil, not doing any work for food, hiring indian, pakistani and bdeshi servants and maids, aged 65+, lurking in Hyderabad and Orissa to marry 9 year olds, until some Nari Utkarsh Sanstha gets hold of their collar.” (I do not know any Arabs personally and I hope you are referring to them as a people and not the fringe elements, so one cannot sit in judgment. The lack of these fine qualities will be visible among any nationality. If they are giving employment to others, then the others are making use of those opportunities too. If they have oil they can do what they want with it…incidentally, they are lubricating the American machinery, isn’t it? Of course, there are a few Arabs who do marry girls from India; it is not good. But did you read about the case of the eight-yr-old in AP who was forcibly ‘married’ to a man because he had a quarrel with her father? She is in the remand home now…)

“I have seen muslim youth sitting idly on the street, not attending schools, but never misssing mosque prayer. I feel sorry for them that their priorities are messed up. They need science more than religion.” (Sure thing. Many youth sit idly, irrespective of community, and in a country such as ours there is something called child labour. The boys I have met in the tanneries at Dharavi work in dingy surroundings and you think they are thinking of their prayers? Yes, we need science more than religion…tell that to yourself a few times, then you will stop watching Muslim youth and what they are NOT doing.)

“SPIN is your nature and SIN is your credo. ``Rape thy mother(India)`` seems to be the motto here.” (Thanks…SPIN…Stay Peaceful In Noise is indeed my nature and SIN…Say It Now my credo…you cannot decide my motto for me.)

“You have a structure in Mecca & Masjid and all the lands where infidels have been wiped out. We have our lands/temples in India. We will build the temple at the same spot where bast*rd Babur raped a culture. You can either join us or join the Rapist. Your call !!!” (Who are you? Why must I join someone who sounds the way you do? Have I asked you to join me? If by ‘us’ you mean Indians, then I am not sure I want YOU to join us. And why not bring down the Taj Mahal too, it is said it was built on a destroyed temple? But everyone wants to showcase pretty stuff that brings in the money.)

“IMs have a history of creating trouble in India when some incident happens in Far away Islamic lands (Palestine, Iraq, Turkey?? etc).” (Define trouble.)

“You have a problem being an Indian, you have a problem being woman... you actually have a problem being a Human being. You should have actually been a Houri for your Jihadi heros. (Ha, nice post I guess... may be you will find a job application in a Madarassah)”

“Do us a favour - Please do not talk about Hinduism and it`s philosophical schools of thought with out knowing what they are!!!” (What have you been reduced to – asking me for favours? I know a little more than you think about Hinduism and its schools of thought because I live in India (go and check out the interesting discussions on my ‘Making religion Sexy’ board…and since you speak so ‘authoritatively’, how much do you know about Islam? Probably zilch or what is fed to you post 9/11 by the Western media…but I will not stop you from talking about the subject)

“go visit pakistan.....and see if they will tolerate your tantrums......India won`t look so bad after all.” (India does not look bad, some of you do…and this is one more statement I get to hear…that India tolerates voices such as mine. Think about it.)

“Oooh...poor farzana(and her poor fellow muslims)....look what an unknown ghati and a jaimaican said about he community...woe is her...” (Funny. The ghati is a hero among those who make powerful decisions and the Jamaican is a proponent of Hindutva…and oh deah, when he got the Nobel wasn’t everyone talking about him being an Indian?? Why are you washing your hands off him now?)

“But, I am thankful that you are writing this because when you blubber too much, one tends to reveal one`s true nature.......the article reflects the muslim psyche to a large extent.” (No, it reveals what you want to see; you have already made up your mind…)

“Naipaul is hated because he says in public what most non muslims said in private. though times have changed.” (Thanks, I knew this to be true. And times haven’t really changed all that much…aap ko hi le lo…)

“But I really doubt if you really IM. If you are really in India, you seem to be more ISI(Saudi) funded, mullah managed, winked by some D-gang sympathizers.”

“You want to discuss the problems? OK Let`s start. Start listing what are they and what`s your problem with that. I am sure it would be another derivative from mullah manual.” (You have already decided what you will get, so why even bother to ask?)

``To all my fellow Indians : Dear friends,
Please! Please!! refrain from reacting to this horribly communal piece of trash by making any remarks against any religion.`` (Taaliyaan...everyone luvvvesss a poster boy...but look in the mirror and repeat what you said a few times -- in the blurred glass you won;t even see yourself clearly.)

Abey, post 104 is not mine. Heck I don`t een know what the hell Marhabba is and I have no frikking Saudi connection.

hindvi: Your post is well-informed and reasoned, and I learnt some new things here (namely, the common use of hindu generals by the mugals). It reminded me of what I was reading yesterday about islamic art and architecture - that much of it was ``religious`` in name, but in fact was patronized by some king of the other. This being a direct result of the fact that the priesthood in islam has never been (until the very recent case of iran) strong. Thus, while we have St. Peter`s Basilica in Rome (i.e. named after a religious personality) but you have Badshahi Masjid in Lahore and Faisal Masjid in Islamabad (i.e. indicating their financiers). As you say, the only religion of a king is power. (Among the Ottomans, the eldest prince would routinely have his brothers all killed at the time the king died, and this became institutionalized to the point that even the manner of killing was ritualistic - namely suffocation using the string of a bow.)

A truly religious person would not be concerned with masjids and temples - since these are mere places for the convenience of man. The only thing really sacred - namely the values taught by all religions, hinduism or islam or any other - is common to all religions, and ignored by the religious zealots.

Thank you for reading and for the kind and not-so-kind comments…and some for counting the words… I would especially like to thank dost-mittarji (for always being a perfect gentleman), (Ashutosh_Gandhi (no, your 80 minutes were not wasted!), kaurasach (for changing his mind in all his posts, but…), Maharana and HN (hope some things are made clearer reading the interacts!), jang (for sharing my camel with me), antihypochrist (the incident you mentioned was wrong, but since people accuse me of using religion for no reason at all, you should realise that it need not have had anything to do with prayer timings), Gandiv (for some of the vilest quotes, which I will use).

I was the one posing the questions that needed to be asked, in my opinion. If they do not suit some, they call them lies and twisted truths. People read several papers, visit websites…the writers are under no obligation to reply. If we occasionally do, it is out of choice.

I will respond to a few points from one post which more or less captures the ‘spirit’ of the discussion…

[About the star-hunt on TV: ``What he was doing was playing to the gallery, showing that his family had ‘progressed’ from hiding even their nails to expose much more``
Well, this shows your idea about modernity]

Read my full quote. My main grouse was that he was being hypocritical because he thought it would sound good. I clearly mention that his wife was sitting right there beside him wearing a sleeveless kameez, so what was this nonsense about not showing nails? I am amazed to read one sensible interactor say that I want to put Muslim women in a straitjacket…please…this young woman or anyone can wear what they want, just as I can, but her father should have seen the stupidity of how he came across…this is what people do to become part of the mainstream.

[``I wake up not to the sound of the azaan but the dhin-chik, dhin-chik from some Hindu pandal or the other.`` Where do you live Farzana, beacuse the India I have seen have mosques with microphones and they start 5 oc`clock in morning. I was lucky enough not to stay near one of those.]

I used these examples, including those about certain Hindu festivals, to tell people that you cannot get anymore mainstream than that…you are surrounded by it. Btw, the dhin-chik is not about pujas, as someone implied, but the ‘Kaanta lagaa’ stuff that these pandals play…

[You also seem jealous of NRIs, majority of them being Hindus, naturally of course since Hindus are in majority and higher overall literacy rate. It`s simple enough to understand, I don`t know how else I can help you.]

I am not jealous of NRIs…I just do not see how they can sit and talk with so much authority about what is happening in my country and telling me that I don’t know a darned thing about it. How you can help me? Either return to my country or do not try to take away my right to say what I want to about any community, religion I wish to speak about.

[Astrology and vedic studies are considered as science, and whats your argument against it? Are you for kowledge or against it? Isn`t it good to have one more optional field to stydy on? You would praise USA for having 20000 universities most of which offering 300+ courses. I don`t see anyone forcing astrology down anyone`s throat. This reveals your dislike about anything Hindu, even though valuable.]

We define knowledge differently. There is still a grey area of discussion whether these are sciences or not…if you want many courses, then you cannot have problems with madrassas…the children there learn to move their head back and forth several times…scientifically speaking, this should make them more flexible.

[``However, this madrassa education is such a gross exaggeration that it is not funny``
Can you tell me what is the standard of science and math is in the best of the madrassa? Schools are designed to build citizens who are strong, knowledgeable, self-reliant and law-abiding, who can compete with the best in the world. Other than what salahuddin did back in 1300s, I don`t see anything that madrassa teaches.]

When I said madrassa education is a gross exaggeration, that is precisely what I meant…there isn’t much of it; you can learn about the Ramayana and Mahabharata from comic books or from a teacher, some Muslim kids learn about their religion in madrassas. I had mentioned Muslim institutions which teach other subjects too (though the Darul uloom madrassa in Lucknow apparently does have regular education). You would not dismiss the schools run by the Anjuman Islam or Saboo Siddique or of course Aligarh Muslim University as madrassas, would you?

[``The whole ‘belong to the mainstream’ idea is dangerous``. Whats wrong with it? There are countless types of people in India living and worshipping the god they respect. Why muslims can`t fit in? Attitude of intolerance and ungratefulness towards the land you live on, is the minimum any country can ask from you. Seems that you have another definition notion of country. Why don`t come forward and say that I don`t believe in Indian constitution?]

Now you know why I said dangerous? Look at your own diatribe and look at what I had quoted after my statement. Belonging to the mainstream automatically means IMs are not thought to be a part of it. Why? When you talk about approx 150 million people living, working here, what do you mean by “fit in”? Fit in where? How? And YOU talk of intolerance of IMs! May I know how Hindus express their gratefulness to India? Will you ask Uma Bharti, Togadia, Narendra Modi, Thackeray to come out and say they do not believe in the Constitution of India? You know what they have done.

[``Now may I ask on what basis do a number of Hindus have any business to suspect this? If I am supposed to feel ashamed for what someone does in another part of the world…then I have every right to find terrorists in my backyard from the majority community.`` Isn`t targeted killing of Hindus in Kashmir, forget bdesh and pakistan, enough to convince you about Islamic terrorism? Name me one Hindu terrorist gang that have taken up AK47s on the name of religion. Youre amazing!]

This was my question. But thanks for putting your foot in your mouth and conveying what I indicated…every act of Islamic terrorism stops at the IM door. Re. Kashmir: read up on the genesis of terrorism there. And AK47s are not the only symbols of terrorism. The whole idea of Hindutva is extremist, and you know who has done what with which brand of weapons.

[``Why can Indian Muslims not be suspicious of the acts of Hindus because of the doings of L.K. Advani, Uma Bharti, Praveen Togadia, Narendra Modi, Bal Thackeray? Why can we not suspect that the majority are aligned with these people who I consider terrorists? ``
So what`s your point? You want to be suspicious, so be it. What you`re gonna do? Raise terrorist on your backyard? Go ahead, someone will come out with another POTA and you will have your share.]

See, there! This is arrogance. I can’t do a thing when Hindus are suspicious. And I can’t do a thing if I suspect Hindus…I can’t do anything, right? Just be called a terrorist.

[``* Why can they not have good leaders to guide them? ``
I agree with you on this, India needs good leaders.]

No, I asked you about Hindu leaders, leaders that represent the Hindu community just as you and your ilk ask us to find good leaders from among the Muslim community. India is not automatically a Hindu nation, therefore it is time you saw the difference.

[``* Why do they have panel discussions discussing ‘Hindu bashing’ and why do they fear being overtaken by the Muslims and yet accuse the Mussalmans of whining and suffering from an inferiority complex?``
Because discussing real problems is a sign of mature democracy. I encourage muslims to discuss their problems, or even better, be part of national discussion forum if they like, and find solutions to that.]

Right. But discussing ‘Muslim bashing’ is immature and whining, right? What if I say ‘Hindu bashing’ is not a “real problem”, but just the latest tearjerker?

[``* How can they dare to point fingers at Muslim regressiveness when they have not been able to improve the lot of their own people that has given rise to the Dalit movement? ``
Because bad is bad, wrong is wrong and a spade is a spade. Dalit movement is purely political driven by Mayawati`s and Lallus, there is no social extension to it.
And what do you think, just because someone else is sick you want to stay sick?]

The question is about pointing fingers. The Dalit movement is not a mere political weapon. The whole neo-Buddhist movement was started by Dr. Ambedkar. (Indian Constitution, remember?) And if you are unwilling to accept the problems of caste and backward people, then you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

[``* How can they make a noise about the sad plight of Muslim girls when statistically there are more instances of female infanticide, child marriages among Hindus than cases of Hyderabad girls being forced to marry Arabs? ``
Can you pls. quote the source of statistics? Again sickness is sickness, wherever you call it? But it all depends on the reliability of the source.]

Google. Malayala Manorama Yearbook.

[``* Why do they harp on Muslim men marrying four times when bigamy is more common among Hindus? ``
Bigamy is illegal, frowned upon, discouraged and conisdered an evil.
In Islam, polygamy is enocuraged, worshipped and sanctioned by mullahs.
Your take?]

‘Just because someone else is sick you want to stay sick?’ (!!)

[``* How can they talk disparagingly about Muslim ghettos when India is divided along regional, culinary, caste, status lines?`` Ghettos are symbol of separatism that`s why. If you think you are separate from this country you pack your bags and go to Pakistan.]

I will have to take the whole of North East India, the Dalits, Bengalis, Sikhs, Parsis, Chinese, Bastar tribals, Malayalees, Gujaratis, vegans, vegetarians, pork eaters, beef eaters, lotus eaters, Gurumayi devotees, catholic missionaries, Bene Israelis, Malabar Hill and Malegaon…each is a ghetto of sorts. I will leave the Brahmins and Kasmir behind…theek hai? Then I would like to see who will be blamed for what… now you may wake up from your dream…I am still here, but you are not. Surprised?

[``* Why are there no discussions on the problem with Hinduism? ``
Why are you interested with knowing problems of Hinduism? Unless of course you either want to cure it or cut it. I think you wish the later.]

Curiosity. And how does one cut a religion? Share your experiences, please.

[``* Why is a Hindu saying that the Gujarat genocide was bad considered a liberal and a Muslim saying so a communalist?`` Anyone saying Gujarat genocide ``bad`` is not enough, it`s in the context of Godhra that triggered it. How do you want to take the death of 58 childerns and women otherwise? I don`t justify the violence. But when you can accept Godhra as an accident why can`t you accept the folloing episode as an ``accident``? How can someone murder 58 children and women in an ``accident``? If you have a theory of Modi being a perpetrator, there is also a theory that Godhra mosque incited local muslims to stop the help for the victims and delayed the fire-fighters, how do you feel about it?
Looks like double standards to me.]

I am glad I wrote this article.

Man I wrote a long ass post to Hindvi which was actually sensible and it got lost.

Simran Bibi:

``And btw, I have no need to prove to you or anyone what my nationality is or what my religious leanings are. ``

Taan kee hoya, das tey deyo. Saanu kee patta tussi kedey passey dee gal kardey ho ;)

#106 by stuka:

[Abey, post 104 is not mine. Heck I don`t een know what the hell Marhabba is and I have no frikking Saudi connection.]

LOL...imagine being saddled with my post of all the people in the world! I don`t know what Marhabba is either, that was just to convey the extent of my Saudi leanings :)

Jang

if it is bhakti poets who created this impression then the Babri masjid/ Ram Janambhoomi issue should be easily solvable because the Babri Masjid was built in 1528 and Tuslidas wrote his opus Ramcharitramanas in 1631 Samvat. had there been a demolition or even an attempt at demolition then tulsidas would not have forgotten to elaborate or atleast mention a matter of such importance to a Ram Bhakt.

and i never called Hindus stupid please dont stuff words into my mouth. Only somebody who indulges in such generalisations deserves that epithet. i said
``It is a rallying cry for them to gather votes, once they come to power they forget about it and as soon as they are out they suddenly rediscover it, i am surprised more hindus dont realise what they are doing and instead become emotionally traped.
``