The Doll’s House

````I have been ‘tolerating’ ``them``, but I get no credit for it. In fact, I should be grateful that they let me live in the same premises, butcher animals, eat them. Not only am I permitted these liberties but, should I be in a personal crisis Middle-Everybody-Except-Klutzes- (MEEK) type situation, they will decide my fate in front of a television audience.

Many MEEKs had to go through this humiliation. Everyone knows about the case of this young woman in a village whose husband, MEEK-007, was called a Klutz when he went missing during the Bongo Festival. When it was recently discovered that he was in a Ladonia jail, he was brought back. Meanwhile, when he had disappeared, MEEK-007`s family decided to sell the daschund, Molly. Molly seemed happy enough with her new MEEKs and is now eight months pregnant with probably the neighbourhood GIR`s litter. SPCA busybodies deemed that since she was not carrying daschund pregnancies, she should return to MEEK-007; he has refused to accept the litter. So Molly will have to keep the litter under a tree,10 days after her delivery. That is all the time SPCA will give her.

. . . and so on and so forth.

Farzana, we all have the right to ask and say what we feel like, because being Indian is increasingly about being whatever you choose to be. But where does this Hindu-Muslim ff stucome into the picture about a group of people being ``phuslaoed`` into getting on television? Do we need to investigate whether the producer of the Zee show was from Jamia or JNU or BHU or wherever to cast more religious aspersions?

Not your best, and I don`t understand what you are trying to say. I don`t know about you, but here in South Delhi, next to Lajpat nagar, prime ``refugee resettlement colony``, we get to hear plenty of azaan too. So what?

Happy Dussera too. And please appreciate - it is nobody`s case that Indian politics or religious animosities or anything are pure bi-polar. So how can there ever be a mainstream, boss?

I would speak on something about Rafiq Zacharia since you chose to juxtapose his views out of the context here:

``If you place this problem before Dr. Rafiq Zakaria, he will still spout the famous words of his book title, ‘Indian Muslims: Where have they gone wrong?’ He will see the problem of the laws, not of the exploitation by the media. The book is making the right noises so I am going to use it here. ``

Now you are picking on Rafiq Zacharia by putting words in his mouth. You are absolutely Wrong about his imagined reaction! Rafiq in the interview to M.J.Akbar at CNBC Asia last week voiced his concerns which is absolutely contrary to what you want him to say. He said that the real problem right from the very begining of freedom struggle is that the print (and now the visual) media has tried to sensationalize the voices and opinions of the fanatic muslim and hindu elements and has brought undue attetion to them thereby increasing their importance. There has never been a ``survey`` regarding what the majority muslims want and has tried to turn the shrill of the fanatics into the opinion of the majority. The Media has failed to highlight the fact that majority of the muslims do not approve of the opinions that the so called leaders claim to speak on their behalf. He said that his case is a clear example- Why does the media not highlight the fact that 99 percent of muslims voted for his candidature despite there being some extremist elements standing against him in the elections. I am sure he would have something similar to say about your shrill on the matter (I have recorded that interview in parts!)

``Co-operation here means going along with the majority tide; reconciliation means reconciling yourself to whatever is in store because that is the only way to save your butt and, if you are lucky, then drown yourself in the prosperity of a fraud. ``

That is out of context and an extremely uncharitable remark. Rafiq said that he lost all the hope after Gujrat carnage of muslims but is now regaining his confident with the Indian democracy after the change in the Government. He said that despite all the confrontation that we had during partition most of the living has been peaceful because majority of the hindus are secular. So Rafiq is talking about empowerment of the muslim community through adherence to the democratic process of the country than through jihadist confrontations. ( I know that this is not liked by the admirers of OBL and call it as bending down to please the majority!!)

``The parents come in for censure as well: “(they) must give up their traditional outlook of sticking to the worn-out methods and norms and not keep their children away from all forms of modern education.” If 70 per cent of the people live in the rural areas, what modern education will they have access to? And would he have the courage to talk to Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi who has been crying aloud for adding astrology and Vedic studies to the curriculum? If those are scientific scriptures, then every community has a right to theirs.
However, this madrassa education is such a gross exaggeration that it is not funny. Muslim institutions have regular classes and teach regular things. Besides, let us not forget that those of us who have been to convent schools did sing catholic hymns. Was this a part of our modern education? ``

Again out of context. Two wrongs do not make a right. OUR suicidal Jehadis do not give BJP or RSS goons a right to kill innocent muslims!!

``Ideally, Gudiya should be suing the BJP and the Indian Army for not giving her the right information. But she cannot cast that stone for she is expected to walk on the shards to welcome a man who is hailed as a hero only because he spent some time in an enemy jail.
Who is the real prisoner? Who are the real prisoners? ``

Well! Let us not create imaginary enemies where there are none. The fact remains that women dis-empowerment in rural communities is a complexer issue which has more layers apart from the community/religious values.
So does the prison that Gudiya (or anyone else) prefers to live is first ``created`` by BJP and the Indian Army!!

More on it after I have finished his book.

I would speak on something about Rafiq Zacharia since you chose to juxtapose his views out of the context here:

``If you place this problem before Dr. Rafiq Zakaria, he will still spout the famous words of his book title, ‘Indian Muslims: Where have they gone wrong?’ He will see the problem of the laws, not of the exploitation by the media. The book is making the right noises so I am going to use it here. ``

Now you are picking on Rafiq Zacharia by putting words in his mouth. You are absolutely Wrong about his imagined reaction! Rafiq in the interview to M.J.Akbar at CNBC Asia last week voiced his concerns which is absolutely contrary to what you want him to say. He said that the real problem right from the very begining of freedom struggle is that the print (and now the visual) media has tried to sensationalize the voices and opinions of the fanatic muslim and hindu elements and has brought undue attetion to them thereby increasing their importance. There has never been a ``survey`` regarding what the majority muslims want and has tried to turn the shrill of the fanatics into the opinion of the majority. The Media has failed to highlight the fact that majority of the muslims do not approve of the opinions that the so called leaders claim to speak on their behalf. He said that his case is a clear example- Why does the media not highlight the fact that 99 percent of muslims voted for his candidature despite there being some extremist elements standing against him in the elections. I am sure he would have something similar to say about your shrill on the matter (I have recorded that interview in parts!)

``Co-operation here means going along with the majority tide; reconciliation means reconciling yourself to whatever is in store because that is the only way to save your butt and, if you are lucky, then drown yourself in the prosperity of a fraud. ``

That is out of context and an extremely uncharitable remark. Rafiq said that he lost all the hope after Gujrat carnage of muslims but is now regaining his confident with the Indian democracy after the change in the Government. He said that despite all the confrontation that we had during partition most of the living has been peaceful because majority of the hindus are secular. So Rafiq is talking about empowerment of the muslim community through adherence to the democratic process of the country than through jihadist confrontations. ( I know that this is not liked by the admirers of OBL and call it as bending down to please the majority!!)

``The parents come in for censure as well: “(they) must give up their traditional outlook of sticking to the worn-out methods and norms and not keep their children away from all forms of modern education.” If 70 per cent of the people live in the rural areas, what modern education will they have access to? And would he have the courage to talk to Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi who has been crying aloud for adding astrology and Vedic studies to the curriculum? If those are scientific scriptures, then every community has a right to theirs.
However, this madrassa education is such a gross exaggeration that it is not funny. Muslim institutions have regular classes and teach regular things. Besides, let us not forget that those of us who have been to convent schools did sing catholic hymns. Was this a part of our modern education? ``

Again out of context. Two wrongs do not make a right. OUR suicidal Jehadis do not give BJP or RSS goons a right to kill innocent muslims!!

``Ideally, Gudiya should be suing the BJP and the Indian Army for not giving her the right information. But she cannot cast that stone for she is expected to walk on the shards to welcome a man who is hailed as a hero only because he spent some time in an enemy jail.
Who is the real prisoner? Who are the real prisoners? ``

Well! Let us not create imaginary enemies where there are none. The fact remains that women dis-empowerment in rural communities is a complexer issue which has more layers apart from the community/religious values.
So does the prison that Gudiya (or anyone else) prefers to live is first ``created`` by BJP and the Indian Army!!

More on it after I have finished his book.

Farzana,
As usual, a bold article, fit to send the fur flying. As always, I found myself agreeing with a lot of things that you say, and also disagreeing with some of the things that you say. Responding to your article will require an article in itself.

Here`s my take:
``* Why has their population growth slowed down by 2.9 per cent while the Muslims’ has gone down by 3.5 per cent? ``
That is misinterpretation of statistics. Hindu population has a lower rate of growth than Muslim population and the slowdown would be lower too. It is like saying percentage of illiterates in the US fell slower than the percentage of illiterates in India. Overall, Muslim growth rate is higher than that of Hindu growth rate - this is a fact. Both rates are falling, yes, but the Muslim growth rate is still higher than the Hindu one.

``* Why do they harp on Muslim men marrying four times when bigamy is more common among Hindus?``
Because bigamy among Hindus is illegal, but four wives is allowed by LAW for Muslims in India, that`s why. If the law were the same for all (one, two or four wives for all), there would be no issue. The issue is about having common laws for all citizens. It is a plain wrong - but the Congress is too pseudo-secular to tackle this issue, hence the BJP (despite its evil intentions) is able to cleverly capitalize on it by tapping into the existing pool of resentment among Hindus regarding this law.

My god what anger and what venom !!!! One can take a magnifying glass and fine fault with every stroke in a Picasso painting. You end up reducing everything to a Hindu - Muslim situation. Probably, if you slipped in the bathroom, you would find a plausible theorey to blame the RSS.

The Hindus believe (So I have read and noticed since I am not a Hindu) that there are many paths to god, and no path can be an exclusive path. So where is the question of Islam conforming to Hinduism ??? It is the only major religion besides the Jews that does not believe in conversion. However like all other religions, Hinduism has its faults and problems. Noone is denying that. So do all the other religions.

The fact is that despite whatever you may say India is the only country between Italy and Japan that has had a genuine consistent democracy for the last half a century. Most Indian Muslims that I have spoken to are happy that they have stayed on in India after Independence. I know a lady who was a Pakistani citizen (she now has a Canadian Passport), whose parents and brothers/ sisters live in Pakistan, but she prefers to stay in Chandigarh. Her children live in UK and Canada. She is much happier out here. Its a matter of choice.

So luckily, not all Muslims feel the way you do. I for one am very proud of our President, all the Khan actors, our top fast bowler and sensational ladies tennis player. I would request you also to read the latest Outlook Magazine that has its main lead story about the Indian Muslim. However if you feel that `Bal` sahib is behind the article, then its no point reading it !!!

Enjoy :)

---

``I have been ‘tolerating’ Hindus, but I get no credit for it.``

No Hindu in Pakistan or Bangladesh gets credit for tolerating Muslims either. Is it not one

fundamental factor of the minority majority confrontation?

``The world was made to see how easy it is to make a spectacle of the Indian Muslim.``

I think you are leapfrogging from on individual`s misfortune into making a universal rhetoric.

Gudiya`s is a tragic situation, but assigning Zee TV`s commercial/tasteless/lurid act the same

strength as national decision is rather too contrived. If at all, I would imagine showcasing of

BJP Muslims by the BJP and others is closer to qualify for such a leap. They are individuals who

by individual choice choose to be brand ambassadors to an unequal and opposite worldview.

``Arif who was called an absconder by the Indian Army was hailed as a hero on his return, not for

what he did on the front, but merely for returning as a PoW. The subtle message being that he is

a nationalist and therefore acceptable by the majority community.``

Again too little happened and you are staking too much into the incident. Remember Nachiketa the

air force pilot. He too returned to a hero`s welcome from Pakistan? It is merely a national

quirk, or a quirk of nationalism, that a when a soldier returns safe from enemy territoty, in a

single piece. I doubt if it was a case of showcasing Indian Nationalism includes Muslims?

Besides, methinks, you are reducing his suffering in the light of the new suffering that he has

visited upon Gudiya.

``Why does he not count them as a part of a potential brain-drain? Why are they held up as

examples of wasted youth when they probably suffer from the same problems as anyone else? What

does he mean by lost hope of any prospect in India when there are many more Hindus moving

overseas to better their lot? If some Muslim youth go to the Gulf countries, then they are doing

so for the same reasons.``

Again, I doubt if Zakaria meant the pool of semi-skilled to unskilled workers going in droves on

Muslims Only visas as the example of Indian Muslim Youth betraying India. It is merely the labour

pool migrating to the part of the world that pays better wages for the same set of skills. They

exploit the fact that several Gulf countries prefer those of Muslim persuasion. How is this brain

drain? It is the same as saying Bangladesh is losing its best brains to India because of those

who cross over to india, often illegally, are doing so because their country does not have the

wherewithal to hold and nourish their talents? On the contrary, they are the same lot as the

Muslim youth, or for that matter Malayalees, who move to the Gulf. Brain drain?


``Why is joining the RSS a patriotic gesture that will instil discipline and joining a Muslim

organisation a regressive move?``

This, according to me, is the false fulcrum of this entire rant. You weaken the ``Hindu

mainstream``, whom you are perhaps addressing, or in any case forms a bulk of your audience, by

calling them ``those who believe, think, and are allied to RSS and Golwalkar.`` If you had quoted

Gandhi, perhaps it would have been closer. Anybody, perhaps even a mystic like Auribindo, or

Tagore...anybody other than the exact person and organisation that has quickened the currency of

your contention. It is laughable to say that Indians consider joining RSS an act of ``patriotism.``

And yet, perhaps, there is a larger number of Hindus who might think joining SIMI maybe be

unpatriotic, because of peculiar reasons that connected SIMI to some terrorist activities.


``Sure. Now may I ask on what basis do a number of Hindus have any business to suspect this? If I

am supposed to feel ashamed for what someone does in another part of the world, whose language I

cannot understand, whose food habits and clothes are different from mine, who even looks

different, then I have every right to find terrorists in my backyard from the majority community.

``

Well, again you weaken your enemy...or the opposite viewpoint deliberately to come out more

strongly in your contention. Are you suggesting that many Hindus in India suspect Muslims because

of terrorism in Chechya, Isrtael and elsewhere? This is ridiculous. The Bomaby blasts, the blasts

in Coimbatore, the blasts in Delhi? Are these accomplished by ``someone does in another part of

the world, whose language I cannot understand, whose food habits and clothes are different from

mine, who even looks different?``

I think the suspicion alluded to is very true, and sadly true. However, the reason is not as

remote as you suggest. It is only when it hits home closer that this suspicion becomes a

pervading malaise. Not right, of course, but there it is.

``Why can Indian Muslims not be suspicious of the acts of Hindus because of the doings of L.K. Advani, Uma Bharti, Praveen Togadia, Narendra Modi, Bal Thackeray? Why can we not suspect that the majority are aligned with these people who I consider terrorists?``

I do not think anybody can constuitionaly disallow such a suspicion. But then, it snakes back to the other fear you voiced earlier. It is the same as leadinhg a witchhunt for all who were once members of the SIMI, because at a much later date some SIMI members were found to be radicalised enough to be part of some nefarious plot or the other.

``If Islamic money is supposed to be pouring in for the jihad in Kashmir, then where is it coming from in the North East? What about the dollars collected for the VHP in Silicon Valley by so-called professionals?
What about the dollars collected for the VHP in Silicon Valley by so-called professionals?``

There again you make a very tenuous connection on the basis of a rhetorical question, wilfully ignoring, one might say, the scale, size, and scope of the two issues. And then, connecting VHP to trained militants blowing up buses. If at all, the VHP thingy will be easier and more clearly compared to funds for proselitisating that comes from the US to indian shores rather than money for military training. Are you saying proseletisation through nuanced and often prolonged bribery is the same as artmed uprising?

And what is achieved by the question: If Islamic money is supposed to be pouring in for the jihad in Kashmir, then where is it coming from in the North East?

Suppose it is coming from Chinese Shintos...then what? If it coming from the Burmese Junta...then what? I mean how does it tie up with the entire issue at hand...which is the pressure of the Hindu mainstream to coopt Muslim minority in India on their own terms, rather than on the terms of the latter?

Farzana bibi, as some one said elsewhere on chowk in an earlier era you need to get a life....your diatribes are getting how should I put it painfully B_anal.........


o.k, oaky - you have a column to fill and it is called fly in the soup - but must you resort to the usual bored_in_a_mid-life_crisis_woman_stirring_my_luke_warm_tea imaga of yourself and pour out these ``oh !God! what do i do? I a need a colum to fill but I am a bored_in_a_mid-life_crisis_woman who needs something more than luke warm tea to stir me`` routines......

come on lady you can surely do better than....give us a good turn....there now....

If 70 per cent of the people live in the rural areas, what modern education will they have access to?

70% of Hindus live in the rural areas too, but you don`t see them sending their children to patshalas or ashrams, do you?

Again as usual the lady picks up an issue and deviates the matter to something else. One would never understand what she wants to say!! Neways njoy lady having good number of interacts to your credit spewing venom as always.

Oooh this lady belongs in the land of Jihad. Lets have a collection to buy her the one way ticket to Pakistan she so craves. Where the Hindoo has been wiped out and she will rest in peace.

We can set up a PayPal account. I will give her twenty dollars right now.

In the meantime I have been inspired to write a poem.

There was a young Muslim called Farzana
Who hated Hindus and Bananas
She said one was yellow
To the Hindus said Hello
and ran like a horse to Pakistana

Well I know it does not rhyme but we cannot all be true poets.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Farzana

This was a very very brave article. And I know that the Indians will be coming in force on this because this is essentially baring it all. You have broken one of the greatest claptraps of the modern world. That just because you are a liberal and a moderate, that you will also be a conformist and deny the basic calling of your identity.

But as I said, the Indians will be coming out on this on pure tangents of disinformation and personal vendettas. Ignore them as you ignored the Pakistanis, including myself on your last article about Jinnah.

Great Work, and I am certain, in terms of interacts this will outdo all the articles on chowk.

FV,

If you don’t like the neighborhood, move to Bangalore or some other more westernized city. If that’s too seeped in Indian/Hindu way of life also for your refined tastes, just move overseas or wherever you feel more comfortable.

Learn some real skills and focus on making honest living rather than continuing your non-stop e-Jihad to entertain India haters.

Farzana

You tell the way it is. Let all the insecurities in the form of venom flow on this board. Truth hurts. Ouch.

Good job. Someone should forward this to Sir Vidia and Mr Rafiq Zakaria.

Our old friend Farzana is back with her usual mixture of fact and fiction. India is a free country and Farzana has every right to put her spin on reality.

For those of us who are more interested in reality, here is a ``press release`` from an indian muslim organization with all kinds of claims to moderation and nationalism. I wil make no comment on it, you can work out its implications.


http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20041004&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3

---

Heed Us, Or Perish
The AIMPLB is the true protector of the Shariat

KHALID RASHEED



It’s high time that those Muslims who call themselves ‘progressive’ and who continue to criticise the working and philosophy of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) go in for self-introspection. They should enquire whether their profession, beliefs and aims in life are in accordance with Islam. A Muslim who believes the Shariat is incompatible with today’s progressive world cannot be considered a true follower of the Prophet. To have complete faith in the Shariat is the basic requirement of Islam. By taking a strong and firm stand from time to time, the aimplb has proved itself to be the true protector of the Islamic Shariat.
For those who feel humiliated by the board, they would do well to remember that we take all decisions in compliance with the Quran, the Hadith (holy book containing sayings of Prophet Mohammed) and other Islamic laws. No one who calls himself a Muslim can go against the directives of the Almighty and no one can say that the board has ever gone against the commands of Allah. There are many misconceptions about the role of the AIMPLB. Its main aim is to protect the Shariat in India. We keep a vigil and ensure that whatever regulations and rules the government makes for Muslims is in accordance with Islamic laws. We also guide Indian Muslims according to the Quran and Hadith.

Our other objective is to unite the entire Muslim community. The board continuously makes efforts at bringing together the Sunnis, Shias, Deobandis, Barelvis and Agakhanis, among others. The main ulema from these different sects have been brought under this singular banner since the ’70s. This is the organisation in which all the Indian Muslims have unflinching faith. All decisions are taken only after reaching a consensus.

The board is aware of criticism from various quarters but its members stand by all the decisions taken so far. In the Shah Bano case, the judgements given by the high court were against Islamic law, as a result of which the sentiments of crores of Muslims were badly hurt. The board had only taken the initiative to persuade the Indian government at that time to pass a law in Parliament against the decision taken by the court.

As for those who believe that the Babri Masjid issue is beyond the board’s jurisdiction, I can only say that they remember that mosques and maulanas constitute a potent part of Islam. And anything which is a part of Islam automatically comes under the jurisdiction of the board. Ever since the board has taken up the Babri Masjid issue, confusion has lessened and no board member has ever given any provocative speeches on this religious issue. Regarding the recent furore over the issue of family planning, the board has made it clear that family planning is not permitted in Islam. The Shariat has been interpreted by the most well-read and authentic imams and ulema and we cannot go against their conclusions.

---

(The author is AIMPLB member and deputy imam, Idgah, Lucknow.)

Dear Farzana:
Newsmedia these days, especially the electronic media, is more about entertainment and very little about information. Gudia`s story is a melodrama built for the modern day media and I wont be surprised to see it on the big screen soon. I too find it disgusting. But why bring in religion, isn`t it enough to treat it as a human tragedy?

``Why is joining the RSS a patriotic gesture that will instil discipline and joining a Muslim organisation a regressive move?``
I would have agreed with you during the BJP rule but with Arjun Singh looking for a khaki nikar in every bureaucrat`s desk drawers, I can`t. In fact the pendulum has swung to the other extreme to my liking, with the army issuing instructions forbidding women to wear a bindi (I would be surprised if you dont occasionally wear one yourself as a fashion accessory).
As for madrassas, I it is too simple to lump them all in the same category. Many of them provide as good, if not better, education than the public institutions, others think that there job is to train only future mullahs.

One may or may not like Naipaul (it`s hard to like a curmudgeion!) but I dont think it is fair to compare him to a racist and a bi_got like Golwalkar. If he is a racist, it is in the strict meaning of the term as he is less than charitable towards the blacks in his land of birth. Naipaul showed his contempt for hindus and Indians (An Area of Darkness) long before he turned his gaze on muslims and islam. And while you may have something in psychoanalysing his fantasising about his homeland, he is not a convert nor is his ancestry in any doubt. And he is not the only one complaining about the Saudis. From what I understand, it is the schools and masjids funded by them that are trying to turn the Indian Muslims away from dargahs and peers and towards a more rigid form of religion.

As for Rafique Zakaria, I think I should read his book to find out why you dislike him so much.

gujju1:
``Pop quiz. Name the creature that displays the following characteristics``
..Easy, creatures in gujju`s fantasyland!

Dear farzana

I sympathise with your predicament for i have been in the same. The things you say are largely true. thankfully i livid in delhi and not in bombay, i did visit it once under thakeray`s raj and i was saddened by how this great and cosmopolitan city had become so communally vicious.

but your tone is not right, this tone cannot lead to a dialogue but only to sensationalism. the same things could have been said in a more conciliatory way, after all these things are common to the subcontinent and indeed to humanity as a whole and not just to hindus. you will offend hindus, many of whom are liberal, also you will make those who are on the border line more defensive no human likes to be reminded of the weaknesses of the group he/she identifies with, it has to be done gently. we have to engage in a dialogue not recrimination. those who are in the right camp will completely disregard this.

human beings when they are in a majority dont even realise what the other has to suffer this is universal human nature. awareness has to be created not hostility.

good article farzana, nice flow.

- my camel in jaisselmeer was also named michael jackson. other was named kaloo to contrast with michael who offcourse is white.
- you represent anguish of a well-off muslim background person in india.
- you are mainstream since most of your gripes about ganapti etc are shared by the mainstream

What a pathetic display of arrogance and hatred!
I am sure Frazana had her share of Madrassa venom backed by some saudi sheikh.

First Gudia epsiode: Let me tell you that I dislike Zee TV as much as you hate, due to of course my own share of reasons (biased coverage, pathetic standard of sit-coms), but that`s another matter.

``Arif who was called an absconder by the Indian Army was hailed as a hero on his return, not for what he did on the front, but merely for returning as a PoW.`` The sarcastic tone in the above statement, definitely raises question about loyalty to India.

Any soldier, irrespective of his religion, who has suffered on enemy territory and comes back home, deserves the respect, praise and glory. Again since you`re not ready to consider him a hero, there is again a question if you really consider Pakistan ``an enemy`` in case of war. It also looks like that you want to discourage any Indian muslim joining Indian army.

About the star-hunt on TV: ``What he was doing was playing to the gallery, showing that his family had ‘progressed’ from hiding even their nails to expose much more``
Well, this shows your idea about modernity. If you think that showing your nail to public doesn`t suit you, you`re free to cover it and roam around like veiled ghost, but why you are so pissef off when someone just because she is muslim wins the star-hunt show? May be you`re jealous that you are more beautiful than her but never got a chance to show off. You need to rethink where you are, and where you are headed.

``Sir Vidia says Arabs are “not fine people”:`` Can you list a few qualities of fine people?
Here`s my take: Honesty, courage, character, respecting every form of life, art.
Now you tell me, have you seen any of these in any of the conspicuous arabs?
I haven`t. What I have seen is, arabs sitting on oil, not doing any work for food, hiring indian, pakistani and bdeshi servants and maids, aged 65+, lurking in Hyderabad and Orissa to marry 9 year olds, until some Nari Utkarsh Sanstha gets hold of their collar.

``I wake up not to the sound of the azaan but the dhin-chik, dhin-chik from some Hindu pandal or the other.`` Where do you live Farzana, beacuse the India I have seen have mosques with microphones and they start 5 oc`clock in morning. I was lucky enough not to stay near one of those.

I heard, music is anti-islamic as per some mullahs, I am not sure if it`s really true. But you are really annoyed by the sound you should seriously consider relocating to some other area, city or probably country.

``Dr. Zakaria’s problem is that he comes up with the same old clichés and his solutions sound more like homilies than workable answers. On the Muslim youth, he says, “They have become rudderless; they have lost hope about any prospect in this country.” Why does he not count them as a part of a potential brain-drain? Why are they held up as examples of wasted youth when they probably suffer from the same problems as anyone else? What does he mean by lost hope of any prospect in India when there are many more Hindus moving overseas to better their lot? If some Muslim youth go to the Gulf countries, then they are doing so for the same reasons. ``
Beacuse I have seen muslim youth sitting idly on the street, not attending schools, but never misssing mosque prayer. I feel sorry for them that their priorities are messed up. They need science more than religion. You also seem jealous of NRIs, majority of them being Hindus, naturally of course since Hindus are in majority and higher overall literacy rate. It`s simple enough to understand, I don`t know how else I can help you.

About Zakaria you wrote, ``And would he have the courage to talk to Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi who has been crying aloud for adding astrology and Vedic studies to the curriculum?``
Now the poor guy was poiniting at some problem to find some solution, and you related that with completely irrelavent subject. Astrology and vedic studies are considered as science, and whats your argument against it? Are you for kowledge or against it? Isn`t it good to have one more optional field to stydy on? You would praise USA for having 20000 universities most of which offering 300+ courses. I don`t see anyone forcing astrology down anyone`s throat. This reveals your dislike about anything Hindu, even though valuable.

``However, this madrassa education is such a gross exaggeration that it is not funny``
Can you tell me what is the standard of science and math is in the best of the madrassa? Schools are designed to build citizens who are strong, knowledgable, self-reliant and law-abiding, who can compete with the best in the world. Other than what salahuddin did back in 1300s, I don`t see anything that madrassa teaches.

``The whole ‘belong to the mainstream’ idea is dangerous``. Whats wrong with it? There are countless types of people in India living and worshipping the god they respect. Why muslims can`t fit in? Attitude of intolerance and ungratefulness towards the land you live on, is the minimum any country can ask from you. Seems that you have another definition notion of country. Why don`t come forward and say that I don`t believe in Indian constitution?

On Islamic terrorism vs. Hindu fundamentalism :
``Now may I ask on what basis do a number of Hindus have any business to suspect this? If I am supposed to feel ashamed for what someone does in another part of the world, whose language I cannot understand, whose food habits and clothes are different from mine, who even looks different, then I have every right to find terrorists in my backyard from the majority community.`` Isn`t targeted killing of Hindus in Kashmir, forget bdesh and pakistan, enough to convince you about Islamic terrorism? Name me one Hindu terrorist gang that have taken up AK47s on the name of religion. Youre amazing!

``Why can Indian Muslims not be suspicious of the acts of Hindus because of the doings of L.K. Advani, Uma Bharti, Praveen Togadia, Narendra Modi, Bal Thackeray? Why can we not suspect that the majority are aligned with these people who I consider terrorists? ``
So what`s your point? You want to be suspicious, so be it. What you`re gonna do? Raise terrorist on your backyard? Go ahead, someone will come out with another POTA and you will have your share.

Why do you also pull CIA in the mix? CIA has nothing in its heart for India, believe me. All it cares is about american interest.

Now for the quiz:
``* Why can they not have good leaders to guide them? ``
I agree with you on this, India needs good leaders.

``* Why has their population growth slowed down by 2.9 per cent while the Muslims’ has gone down by 3.5 per cent? ``
Come on, you know the trick behind this, don`t you? The plain simple fact is Hindu growth rate is under 20% whereas muslim`s is 28%. Now you come out with second and thrid derivative or even try Bernoulli`s equation to dazzle some, but it wouldn`t change the fact.

``* Why do they have panel discussions discussing ‘Hindu bashing’ and why do they fear being overtaken by the Muslims and yet accuse the Mussalmans of whining and suffering from an inferiority complex?``
Beacuse discussing real problems is a sign of mature democracy. I encourage muslims to discuss their problems, or even better, be part of national discussion forum if they like, and find solutions to that.

``* Why do they grumble when it comes to reservations for Muslims when there are whole sections of tribal and backward castes that get it and indeed deserve it due to the flaws of history? ``
Because the whole idea of reservation is wrong, mind you, I am not Brahman; in that it looks for correcting historical wrong. Extending a wrond idea to muslims, who by being muslims, haven`t suffered in 2000 years is not only wrong but unjust and illegal. Andhra HC has a verdict on this.

``* How can they dare to point fingers at Muslim regressiveness when they have not been able to improve the lot of their own people that has given rise to the Dalit movement? ``
Because bad is bad, wrong is wrong and a spade is a spade. Dalit movement is purely political driven by Mayawati`s and Lallus, there is no social extension to it.
And what do you think, just because someone else is sick you want to stay sick?

``* How can they make a noise about the sad plight of Muslim girls when statistically there are more instances of female infanticide, child marriages among Hindus than cases of Hyderabad girls being forced to marry Arabs? ``
Can you pls. quote the source of statistics? Again sickness is sickness, wherever you call it? But it all depends on the reliability of the source.

``* Why do they harp on Muslim men marrying four times when bigamy is more common among Hindus? ``
Bigamy is illegal, frowned upon, discouraged and conisdered an evil.
In Islam, polygamy is enocuraged, worshipped and sanctioned by mullahs.
Your take?

``* How can they talk disparagingly about Muslim ghettos when India is divided along regional, culinary, caste, status lines?`` Ghettos are symbol of separatism that`s why. If you think you are separate from this country you pack your bags and go to Pakistan.

``* Why are there no discussions on the problem with Hinduism? ``
Why are you interested with knowing problems of Hinduism? Unless of course you either want to cure it or cut it. I think you wish the later.

``* Why is a Hindu saying that the Gujarat genocide was bad considered a liberal and a Muslim saying so a communalist?`` Anyone saying Gujarat genocide ``bad`` is not enough, it`s in the context of Godhra that triggered it. How do you want to take the death of 58 childerns and women otherwise? I don`t justify the violence. But when you can accept Godhra as an accident why can`t you accept the folloing episode as an ``accident``? How can someone murder 58 children and women in an ``accident``? If you have a theory of Modi being a perpetrator, there is also a theory that Godhra mosque incited local muslims to stop the help for the victims and delayed the fire-fighters, how do you feel about it?
Looks like double standards to me.

``I am amazed that today we have educated people talking about the dangers of ‘secular fundamentalists’. ``
If you know what secularism means and history of it, you wouldn`t have said this. Can by any stretch of imagination think of teaching saudis or lets come close, pakistanis ``secularism``. Can you think of a pakistani journalist rediculing some maulana and bashing muslim history in pakistan? Then what`s wrong with calling psecs, psecs?
So if you`re in Pakistan or Saudi, secularism is bad for you and if you`re in India its the most prized jewel?

Back to Gudiya, ``Gudiya has to go through mental torture and be made a tamasha of.``
I pity Gudia, but then there are 100 billion Indians with their own problems. Its the responsibility of Gudiya`s parents, friends, social aquaitances and local social/religious leaders to make sure she was guided right. If she can`t wait unmarried for 8 months for her husband, then how can you think of blaming government and army for that? Sue her parents and people around her.

Overall, I think Farzana, you`re better of outside India. You seem terribly incensed with the realities around you. There is sharp contrast between the image of India that you like, and what it actually is. Also there is anti-india undercurrent with the hint of ill-will.
Farzana, whatever bad you wish for India, India is on the rise and will be, and I am not sorry for you.

On a lighter note-

Last time it was about ``real`` Jinnah, this time it is the ``false`` Rafiq Zakaria- there is a common thread here and I am aware where it comes from!!!!!
Guess!!!

Farzana,
I cannot make out if this was a criticism of Rafiq Zakaria & Naipaul or an indictment of the society at large. There is much to criticize about the society but there`s no use doing it along the lines of hindus versus muslims. There is hyper-religiosity in the air as a whole, with hindu and muslim festivals becoming brasher and more in-the-face and provocative. Singling out muslims for criticism while ignoring what everyone else is doing is a sure sign of bigotry. However self examination and self criticism are important and necessary. This may be what sets Zakaria and Naipaul apart from each other.
As for the Zee TV episode, I have noticed that you have a tendency to pick out an isolated incident and generalize from it. What the TV show did is pathetic and soul-less. What the Panchayat did by denying the woman a say in the matter is worse still because it has real consequences to the woman. Religion enters into it only to the extent that a hindu widow in a village would not have remarried. Draw your own conclusions.

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Farazana,
What is objectionable about your article is you advocate restricting individual choice. A young muslim women likes to dress to look good, and you see that as pandering to the majority? How warped can you get? This is the essential tragedy of muslims in india. A women who wears the burka is derided by the progressives (I am guilty of this), and one who chooses to be normal is betraying (or worse) her religious identity. And the tragedy is that people with all the priveleges of upper class indian society like you , want to keep muslim women in a straight jacket. Shame!

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>> Zee TV virtually dragged these people to the studios and conducted an on-camera panchayat where these decisions were taken. Gudiya remained a mute doll, forced to accept words of the Shariat being mouthed by those present.

The world was made to see how easy it is to make a spectacle of the Indian Muslim. Put them on TV, discuss their strange laws <<

Yes, it is better to sweep such issues under the rug. No tamasha, no discussions, no pointing fingers at anyone... especially by Hindus.

Author is also right about the media bias when it comes to discussing ``Hindu`` problems. If I wasn`t psychic, I would have never come to know about dowry, female infanticide, caste-wars, atrocities on dalits, etc. There are hardly ever any news items on tv/magazines about these issues. Outside India, no one is aware of these strifes in Hindu soceity. Right?

Also, since no one discusses, there haven`t been any protests and no measures have been taken to tackle dowry problems or female infanticide. Instead, Hindus like to pass time by highlighting ``strange laws`` of islamic world.

Author has highlighted the best way to serve justice in case of any religion related problem is, to keep quiet. Or silently protest. Or let the same-religion media discuss the issues such that no one hears about it, protest when no one can see them and pray for a change.

I agree with the rest of the article as well... after ``silently`` discussing the main problem, we should vociferously point fingers back at others... especially those who dared discuss ``our`` problems... because we are an entity in ourselves. Oh, and don`t waste time in trying to be logical or correct or.... even have a focus. We need all that time to ramble at leisure.

I am providing the link to the outlook article that I was referring to in my earlier post.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20041004&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1

Another thing that I want to comment on is that Mohammad Arif and Jagsir Singh were captured by a Pakistani patrol just after the Kargil war. There was no communication about this by the Pakistan Govt. to the Indian Govt. Both soldiers were last spotted in a town before their capture. In such a case the Army has an automatic procedure to declare a soldier as a deserter, when his whereabout is not known. It could be argued as to whether this rule is correct but in the Army rules and procedures are followed. Farzana article without saying explicitly tries to give a communal angle to Arif being named a deserter by the army which is baseless.

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as i said a nice article articulating frustrations of a well-educated modern person of muslim community who is kind of ashamed of her background (as is exemplified by her attack on zakaria) and feels overwhelming guilt about enjoying ``mainstream`` things like all the festivals that mumbai enjoys with zest.

one dilli girl transferred from miranda house in dilli to st. xaviers college. at the end of one acedimic year she was totally overwhelmed. The year started with Govindas doing their pyramids, followed by the 10 day Ganesh Celebrations. Interspersed were all the local hikes by taking the local train to Kasara into some old shivaji fortress. Then it was the Navratri (number of underage abortions skyrocket after about 2 months) Dandiya Ras. Diwali was a relatively lame affair (comparatively). Then there were all the local fests like the Bandra Fair and Mahim Urs, Chrismas and New year, a month of Ramdan side-walk eating on Md. Ali (jinnah) road. Whos got time for Holi (which she found very civilized as compared to dilli) since there were all the college festivals like malhar and mood-i etc.

she actually enjoyed all the fun, its the exams she had to tolerate.

but for some of us, we yearn for minimalistic bairagi simplicity which is not mumbai city. may be some sandy place (jaissalmeer ?) nothing wrong with it. i myself went deaf from the dhols in ganesh immersion celebrations, though i put-up with it because i was completely spellbound by a group of young ladies doing a kind of techo-bhai dance in the procession.

the religious nonsense one has to put-up with to reach simpler truths.

.............personally i cannot get too excited about the plight of indian muslims and the bushmen of kalahari - i wish them well, but we have enough troubles of our own ........ however, they do seem to whine a lot ......... they had their chance to pick up their boria-bister and lota and move to god`s side of the border in 1947, but they chose to stay and take their chances with the horrible hindoos - serves them right! ............ their friends and neighbours who moved to karachi are living in the lap of luxury and eat cake-russ three times a day............

``female infanticide, child marriages among Hindus than cases ``

actually it turns out that sikhs have highest skew in female-male birth ratio, followed by hindus, muslims, christiand and jains have the most females being born. surprisingly, jains pay hefty dowries.

i got this info from a very secret hush-hush ``hindu`` newspaper and a some news channel called ndtv which the mainstream has supressed by shouting loudly at it and throwing gende-ke-phool. come to think of it, the investigative reporter, who took a camera to several abortion clinics in delhi was muslim (based on her alleged name, but it may be a ploy, how dare a real muslim report on a hindu issue like female fetus abortions)

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I don`t mean to disrespect Indians, but everytime I read something like this I fall down on my knees and thank God that I was not born in India. What a cesspool. Our Pakistan even though a squalid hellhole in its own right seems to be a fresh gust of wind from paradise, when compared. I thank God for giving us this sweetest haven on His earth. One day we will make our country proud and strong

mouj baRhay ya aandhi aayay, diya jalayay rakhna hay
iski khaatir har dukh jhailaiN, ghar tau aakhir apna hay.


whereas I see no hope for Indian Muslims. After 58 years of independence 20% Muslims have just 2.5% representation in government and beaureaucracy whereas in Pakistan every minority far exceeds in its representation in government. In India, Muslims will be further marginalized as they are losing their citizenship rights at the hands of a shortsighted and meanspirited majority and as I see that everybody is jumping into the bandwagon of anti-Muslim hatered as a global trend. The conflict of civilizations is a concious choice that people are making at this time because they think that at present Muslims are weak and would not resist any assault on themselves and they will collapse like Soviet Empire or something. This political discontent is sure going to effect the geography soon as well. You can only hate and marginalize a group and push them against the wall to a certain extent, after that the reaction begins and that far exceeds action. Yes you can bomb 200 schools in a day and kill 9000 children like flies but then Beslan happens. And yes you can slaughter 100,000 Muslims in Kashmir, burn thousands of them alive and rape them in Gujrat; yes you can destroy their mosques and graves; yes you can destroy their countries after countries and bomb their cities to oblivion but beware if you can`t kill them now you will just make them stronger. Yes it is your time now but tide always turns.

urstruly,

``Yes it is your time now but tide always turns`` ............ can you give some estimate of an approximate time when the tide will turn .............. is it going to be at 10 am tomorrow morning, or, let`s say, next october, or is it going to be in the spring of 2040 ............. any estimate will be appreciated ...........

.... thank you, kindly ..............

hamidm

was it 9/11? just think.

Farzana,

That was well written.
Frustrations of many indians be it on social or political issues cannot always be coloured in communal terms.
I`m sure there was no communal angle when diana was killed being chased by Papprazis. Try not to inject your frustrations which are also a represntative of general muslims in india, always through the same angle. We indians in general are over-expressive about our respective religions, languages etc. Ask a north indian living in southern india or vice versa about adjustments to various things. Ask a desi grocery shop owner in US why he has to diaplay american flag after 9/11. The minority vs. majority issues are common throughout the world. Yes the degree varies certainly. Some adjustment to majority is always required everywhere.
We had the partition of india for the same reason, as some people were not willing to adjust to a changed reality. Your problem is that muslim community which remains backward due to its own reasons alos is unwilling to look at skihs, jains and christians who are growing and developing faster than majority community. Indeed partition, in the minds of indians have created some problem for the muslims in india. I`m against this nonsense of proving one`s loyalty to a nation. But reality anywhere is largely a fleeting emotion caricatured by events fresh in the minds of people. I`m sure sept. 11 has created immense problems for US muslims who are having to prove there loyalty to US in more ways then one.
On a different note though, do you believe that Gudiya would have been allowed to have her own say if Zee were not present?
Adios

congrats in advance FV, you will hit another century of interacts.

This was bound to happen...most Hindus on this board have begun to talk for all of India, even when some may not be living here...

I have posed questions to you in your capacity as Hindus because Indian Muslims are posed questions for being Muslim...IMs are looked on suspiciously not merely for terrorist attacks in Coimbatore and Kashmir (though, WHY should they be???) but also for any acts of Islamic terrorism in the world. IMs are asked why we don`t have good leaders; I ask you who are the Hindu leaders you are proud of, and don`t tell me Mahatma Gandhi...give me contemporary names among `Hindu` not Indian nationalist party leaders. If you constantly keep harping about how IMs should belong to the mainstream as though they are some creatures from outer space, then I wish to know which Hindus do not belong to the mainstream and which do...we are told you cannot brush all Hindus with the same brush, right? (Muslims of course you can...)

And while attributing arrogance to me, no one seems to have noticed that some people do not even believe one should discuss the `problem` with Hinduism, when it is open season for everyone to hold forth on the problem with Islam...

Re. Arif Mohammed and everyone`s sudden love for him as a PoW, how much discussion was held about his time in prison? Shouldn`t there have been more pertinent points raised about this than this personal life? And Arif too got media-savvy.

I am glad someone brought up the name of the other PoW, Jagsir Singh. Isn`t it interesting that no one thought it fit to probe too much into his personal life, get his wife back and hold a televised court on the matter?

If some of you can look beyond the `venom` in this article, you might see some sense in the questions.

PS: The `tolerate` Hindus was clearly a tongue-in-cheek swipe at the constant refrain of Hindus being a tolerant lot...but here who looks at tongue and who looks at cheek??

PPS: This article is not about Pakistan; all Hindus obsessed with it and therefore discussing it here are kindly requested to pack their bags and move there...
- - -

hamidm2:

You are funny and I like you and all that, but what is being discussed here is not whether Indian Muslims should have moved to Pakistan (Mumbai/Delhi can give Karachi a run for its money where the lap of luxury is concerned, and both Dr. Z and I have tasted it)...it is about why one group is expected to be like the rest in order to belong. I agree that the rest of the world have enough problems of their own...but we have some of ours too...so if this is whining, then so be it...of course the fact that people are doing their bit of whining while responding to someone who needs to get a life is very revealing to me...surprises never cease.

farzana,

that is one interesting piece of work. excellent article.

you mention that

``Why are these questions not asked in a loud voice by Muslims who are part of the mainstream? ``

I would suggest that the reason these questions are not asked is that these questions are not even coming to the mind of an average IM. The community is ALWAYS defending itself against all the stigmatic punches that are thrown at it from all over the media/politicians/organisations, hence counter questions are not raised or the questions themselves are not questioned.

as regards the literary publications of zakaria family, the less said the better.

rani, I agree with you completely. You put it the best

#38
Wow! Is that Urstruly in disguise?

Thanks FV,

It is really very interesting to see the real ``Indian educated religiously tolerant secular mindset`` when people who claim to be so secular blast you for putting your questions out and volunteer to open paypal account to throw you across the border. no where you mentioned your alegiance to Pakiland and this can only be attributed to the hindu syche which is still stuck and not ready to accept Muslims as a part of indian nation unless they adopt ``the hindu culture`` I am making gross generalization and there are quit a few indians who I am doing injustice to by puttingthem in same catagory but the mood here in the replies really unveils the hypocrisy of tolerance and secularism the Indians so proudly cliam.

#6 HN

A generally balanced reply despite farzana`s tone, except the last two points

VHP dollar funding is not used merely for proselytising its connections were found to the Gujrat Pogrom.

Secondly Hindus in india do look accusatorily at muslims for acts of international islamic terror and for Kashmir terror. infact that was the refrain of many hindus in gujrat who were interviewed post riots. vajpayee captured this mood on his goa speech when he said some thing to the effect where ever they are they spread terror. farzana is right in saying that Indian muslims have little to do with these acts or with those in Kashmir. though yes after the 92/93 pogroms in Bombay they supported the the bomb blasts secretly for they felt hindus too must feel some repurcussions and interestingly no riot took place after that in Bombay.

And to tell you the inside scoop, most indian muslims did not previously sympathise with each other until the rise of the Mandir/BJP movement in 1989. Often the cosmopolitan bombay muslims would evince little interest in the plight of the muslims of UP who were being subjected to repeated riots by the PAC, trader community and RSS/Congress, those riots were engineered quite often to get rid of muslim competition in business and get votes for the desired party, the common hindu rarely rioted against the common muslim or vice versa. This changed once the pogroms occured in bombay in 92 and 93.

neither did the rest of Indian muslims sympathise with Kashmiris, their grieviences were known only to themselves. even today the kashmiris dont care much about the rest of india`s muslims as evident in their actions.

the relationship of the indian muslims towards kashiris is subtle, they sympathise with the kashmiri`s sufferings and would like them to be given autonomy and some kind of easing in their border with pakistan, i.e. whatever makes the kashmiris happy with out having them secede from the union, confederal arrangement, joint governemnt whatever. No indian muslim wants to see India Partitioned, they love it as much as Hindus but they are not blind to its faults nor do they want the blot of traitors to be smeared on them. they just want the kashmiris to be happy, since they to have felt that sting of indian police forces too.

Also the pakistani establishment doesnt care much about indian muslims (as evident in hamidm`s remark). Infact Kuldip Nayyar once wrote in a column that when he told a Pakistani bureaucrat that pakistan`s actions in Kashmir hurt Indian muslim because it helps the Sangh to whip up anti muslim sentiment and riots, the bureaucrat replied that that is the price indian muslims will have to pay for pakistan`s sovreignity. they have repeatedly shown this atitude since the Lahore resolution of 1940.

But since the rise of the bjp and increasing antimuslim communalism and violence in the 80s muslims have started to develop some sympathy for each other, but this too is limited, in the sense that more than sympathy it is fear, muslims in delhi after the gujrat progroms suddenly started buying hoses in muslim localities and land prices jumped in Okhla, Nizammudin etc.

Farzana,
Your ignorance to answer my questions and comments in my earlier post only shows that you`re not only rhetorical but your article is completelty void of facts and based and shaped by your mal-formed ideas about India and Hindus.

You`re turning this site from the one discussed by ``intelligent and moderate pakistanis`` to a one where fundamentalists reign in with their pre-conceived notions about about India, Hindus and non-muslims in general, with post after post hailing your ``brave, courageous, exemplary and clinical`` performance of putting up 2600+ words of hateful attack.

You said:
``This was bound to happen...most Hindus on this board have begun to talk for all of India, even when some may not be living here... ``
My take:
Whom do you suggest Hindus should talk about, TIMBUKTOO? How does it matter if I stay in India or not? If you have any truthful fact supporting your ``scholarly`` essay, why don`t you post it?

You said:
``IMs are looked on suspiciously not merely for terrorist attacks in Coimbatore and Kashmir (though, WHY should they be???) but also for any acts of Islamic terrorism in the world.``
My take:
This is baseless. Nobody blames IM for terrorism in far lands.
But IMs get hurt when we blame people responsible for terrorism in the outside world, who, as it turns out, are mainly muslims. IMs need to introspect if being a muslim is a better qualification for sympathy than being a terrorist, good enough to condone it.

You said:
``If you constantly keep harping about how IMs should belong to the mainstream as though they are some creatures from outer space, then I wish to know which Hindus do not belong to the mainstream and which do...``
My take:
Where do you come from statements like these, Hindus that belong to or those that don`t, to mainstream? I missing the logic, about how it`s connnected to the question of Muslims and mainstream. Can you be a bit more clear please?
What`s about this brush that you can paint people with? I smell your boast about muslims being able to be painted with some fanatic brush.

You said:
``And while attributing arrogance to me, no one seems to have noticed that some people do not even believe one should discuss the `problem` with Hinduism``
My take:
Posting an article which spreads lies and twisted truths, and ignoring to reply to the questions raised, while still maintaining that you are dead right, is called ARROGANCE in journalistic sense.

You want to discuss the problems? OK Let`s start. Start listing what are they and what`s your problem with that. I am sure it would be another derivative from mullah manual.

You said:
``I am glad someone brought up the name of the other PoW, Jagsir Singh. Isn`t it interesting that no one thought it fit to probe too much into his personal life, get his wife back and hold a televised court on the matter? ``
My take:
Why can`t you see someone in peace? The poor guy doesn`t have any problem in his life. His life didn`t succumb to the pressure of relatives and didn`t believe that ``producing babies is the greatest service to the nation where we are major race in the world now``, like Gudiya did, or may be Gudiya wasn`t even allowed to think about that.

You said:
``If some of you can look beyond the `venom` in this article, you might see some sense in the questions. ``
My take:
Unless you reply to the questions with facts, and reveal the source of statistics that you claim to be true, it remains a piece of senseless jumble of words.
``Sense`` in it? you`re kidding! don`t you?

You said:
``PPS: This article is not about Pakistan; all Hindus obsessed with it and therefore discussing it here are kindly requested to pack their bags and move there... ``
My take:
And hindus kindly decline your request as you should seriously reconsider the relationship between your intellectual and physical position and probably move to some ****stan, as you are more likely to find like-minded fellows there.

Farzana, nothing personal, just you seem to be driven by emotions combined with religious zealousness with contrived ideas of superiority complex. Nobody blames IMs of having inferiority complex, at least, not me, honest.

But I really doubt if you really IM. If you are really in India, you seem to be more ISI(Saudi) funded, mullah managed, winked by some D-gang sympathizers.

You seem to
-have belief in facts that are contrary to evidence,
-being irritated or annoyed by things around you,
-distressed, disoriented, and uncertain about and yourself and your role in society,
in psychology these are called, delusion(psychotic belief), vexation, identity crisis.
I am not a doctor but can see that you really need help.

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Hamidm

I am a great admirer of your wit especially the ``one eyed prophet`` classic of yours but please could you stop using that pet phrase of yours ``horrible Hindu`` it isnt funny.

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Farzana Versey

Quote:

`` it is about why one group is expected to be like the rest in order to belong.``

Like it or not, answer lies in what Mr Jinnah did. For some (who are more vocal), from the majority community in India, what Mr Jinnah did was nothing short of betrayal. Since he betrayed (as per some) in the name of a community so certain things are expected by `some (who are more vocal)` from majority community. Meaning, some from the majority community expect certain things from minority community as betrayal (in the eyes of those some, from majority community) took place in the name of minority community.

Farzana - Thank you for penning this insightful and eye-opening article. This is an account of a non-hindu living in the ``shinning`` India. To even imagine myself living in that stiffling environment day in and day out of my life, gives me shudders. Your ``Muslim Mirror vs Hindu Mirror`` was right on the mark.

Great Job.

Hello FV:
You better wake up early rather than noon during the pooja then you could hear azam. You like to drink puss of cow (thats what a cows milk is....yes puss). I hope harshadbhai and deepakbhai are ``majama``.
You are blinded by hatred for hindus. To some aspect your hatred might have a good reason but generalizing hindus is as wrong as generalizing muslims for backwardness.
I believe that Babri Masjid is a dispute between Hindus and Muslims. There are many ways to solve the dispute including philosophy of might is right. But there are also people like sankaracharya that believes that we could settle it out of court. Many disputes are settled out of court with blessing from both the sides. Why is this wrong. If either party does not agree than there is always court. So, Sankaracharya is saying lets discuss the dispute. If we can settle than well and good. (Please dont go about whether Sankaracharya is the rightful representative of hindus or not).
I agree that there could be a more eco-friendly way of Ganesh Visarjan. People should be careful not to offend or hurt anyone during holi by using eco-friendly color and not oil paint. But these activities like Tajiya are where a particular community take part as whole. Thus, one should not be opposed to it.
I havent read the book from Guru Gowalkar. But an average Hindu might expect that like any nation is that if a foreigner comes to a country he adapt himself to it not the other way around. He learn the language being used and obey the laws. Try to assimilate like Parsis have done. Though a foreigner should not be subjected to any injustices. What Hindus expect from non-Hindus is please dont ridicule our Gods. We dont want you to worship our Gods but please show respect to it. Dont start bashing that Ganesh Visarjan/Holi/Govinda should be stopped. There have been numerous cases in the history of India where Hindu temples have been replace to Muslim Masjid or Christian Church. Hindus does not want that to happen again. Hindu culture is a very huge umbrella where eventhough Bengali and Gujarati customs are different but they still fall under the umbrella of Hindu culture.
Your accusations of being ``sub-ordinate`` is completely untrue. No hindus want to rule or govern over a muslim or christian. Can you give me an example when this has happened in recent past?
I dont know the fantasy of V.S. Naipaul but it is a fact that Indian muslims are converted people. They could have converted for any reason being fear or belief.
I cannot understand your paragraph titled ``Islamic terrorism vs. Hindu fundamentalism``. I believe that every Indian should be given a right to free speech be it Bal Thackeray or Narendra Modi or Laloo Prasad or Hurriyat. As long as people dont cause physical or social harm personally it should be okay. I think you are trivialising terrorist activities by including like of togadia.
You can live a mainstream existence even if you follow the religion actively. I dont know how you assumed that one cannot live a mainstream existence by following a religion. Its prejudical against one who is following religion actively.
You will have to define good leader. I think Manmohan singh, ABV, Mufti, Nitish Kumar, Digvijay singh are all good leaders as they want progress of India.
Journalist (even though I dont think you are) should not play with numbers until they have knowledge about statistics. 3.5, 2.9, 78.5, 13.5 are numbers one could easily interpret in their own way.
I am against policy of reservation if it favours one religion because one could easily say a ``sahada`` without meaning.
Muslims regressiveness is a problem so is treatment of dalit. RSS, VHP are very much against the treatment of harijans which is meted out even today. There is still a long way to go but the first step is to acknowledge the problem. Some hindus have acknowledge it while many still needs teaching. But one cannot treat backwardness of India by only treatment of harijans, muslims backwardness is also to be tackled. Your view is that one should not point fingers unless you have solved all your problems. Both are problems and both can treated simultaneously.
Similarly plight of any indian girl should be a concern. Infanticide is biggest sin in India. Killing of unborn child is a sin be it a girl. I dont know how or who is trying to tackle this problem. But does it diminish the problem of arabs marrying teenagers in hyderabad. No, it should also be tackled with the law.
India is divided as per the culinary lines. This is a very childish argument, so I wont answer that.
The reason the secular faces are hindus while discussing a problem in Islam is because there arent many brave muslims to discuss the problem. Only after the killing of innocent children in Beslan the Arab world trying to talk about terrorism within them. There are organization like arya samaj, rss, even Indian government who are discussing the problem in Hinduism. For e.g. Women getting rights to inheritance.
Killings in Godhra, Gujarat, Marad, Akshardham, Kashmir, Bombay and also killings of BJP follower in Bengal by communist are all crimes. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that Hindus are liberal and Muslims are commie.
Arif is a hero because he choose his profession to be an armymen. He would have laid down his life for his country. Dont trivialize his sacrifice because he was caught. Just read the first paragraph of your article. After that you will realize that Dr. Zakaria is right that Muslims should solve the problems with co-operation and not confrontation. What has hindus done to Gudiya. Because of zee tvs broadcast all hindus are evil.
India would love to have secular leaders but not psuedo secular leaders like the communist or congress party for whom if hindu priest is killed its a normal murder but if a nun is attacked then there needs to be CBI investigations.
There needs to be a law in India that theieves and robber of a particular religion should not loot of people of other religion otherwise the criminal will also be considered communalist.
Hindsight is always 20/20. There was no need to include BJP in the mess and your zealous nature included them along with Army. It was unfair that she got paraded in front of a TV channel. If she wants to sue she could do that against the TV channel.
I hope some of your questions were answered and my 80 minutes have not gone in utter vain.

Farzana,

Sincerely, if you took up cricket and played for India (I`m only hoping), you`d knock out Mutthiah Muralitharan`s and Shane Warne`s records in no time. This is one big favour you can do for your country.

SPIN is your nature and SIN is your credo. ``Rape thy mother(India)`` seems to be the motto here.

Islam has not allowed a non muslim to prosper as Sanatana Dharma allowed other religions to prosper.
(Dare to Compare the achievments of Hindus in Pakiland to that of Muslims in India)
Yet, you have a problem with Hindus !!!

You say Beatrice Lamb has RIGHTLY observed....
Ok, Farzana perhaps this Ms.Lamb did not consider Parsis / Jews of India.
Or may be she`s talking about those living in India but not willing to TOLERATE the MAJORITY culture (actually the NATIVE CULTURE....well well you are still not sticking to the outdated AIT or AMT perpetrated by your favourite ``let`s pimp our mother`` JNU wallahs, right ???)
Ever heard of the saying ``More Catholic than Pope`` ??? That`s what some IMs like you do.

Questions to Farzana:
1) ``Hindu in Pakiland`` Vs ``Muslim in India``.... who do you want to be ?

2) ``Freedom of religion to non Hindus in India`` Vs ``Freedom of religion to Hindus in Islamic countries`` (which one`s better ? why ? leave Turkey aside - don`t be so cunning, or am I asking too much)

3) Tolerance of Hinduism Vs Tolerance in Islam (which one do you think is better and why)

4) Why is ``respecting`` the culture/religion/language of the land such a scary thing for you ?
(you quote Ms.Lamb...
Any religion that does not want to be encompassed, embraced and indeed absorbed and perhaps ultimately transformed by Hinduism finds Hindu tolerance somewhat too demanding since it is conditioned upon a basic acceptance of a Hindu view of life and Hinduism’s peculiar genius for absorption.” )

Our president EMBRACED the native culture and yet continues to be a muslim. If there`s any transformation, it`s for the better. Won`t you agree ??? Or did you want to LEGALLY get married and DIVORCED without a trial ??? Or how about realsing that you are the 4th wife of Mr.Khan and LEGALLY unable to challenge him ??? How about Shah Bano ?? Mainstream - now you know what it is ???

Babri Masjid was a structure built by a pathetic apology of a human being over the deadbodies of the natives insulting the native culture. Your blood should boil when you think of this beastly rape to Indians. Yet, you don`t care.

You have a structure in Mecca & Masjid and all the lands where infidels have been wiped out. We have our lands/temples in India. We will build the temple at the same spot where bast*rd Babur raped a culture. You can either join us or join the Rapist. Your call !!!

If you don`t know the pain, I wish you`d go to a Mecca and Madina which has been ravaged by some other religion (say Christianity) - with a church standing on their ruins and feel the pain. Not you but the next 100 generations of Muslims. Won`t you feel like building a Masjid there ? Fair question, right ??

IMs have a history of creating trouble in India when some incident happens in Far away Islamic lands (Palestine, Iraq, Turkey?? etc).

Post partition, IMs have lost nothing (infact they gained much) but Hindus did. As an example, if Hindus had ``X`` sq Kms of land (say from Afghanistan to Kanyakumari.. and Pakistan - incl to B`Desh incl), post Invasion of they lost 20 %. Post partition, they lost another 25%. NOw with Kashmir they will lose another 10 %.

YET YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HINDUISM`s TOLERANCE !!!

HONESTLY FARZANA, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HINDUISM`S TOLERANCE !! A DIFFERENT KIND THOUGH ... WE SHOULD BE MUCH LESS TOLERANT. THAT WAY WE WOULD HAVE PROTECTED OUR LANDS FROM ARAPIC NOMADS AND THEIR STAUNCH FOLLOWERS.

You have a problem being an Indian, you have a problem being woman... you actually have a problem being a Human being. You should have actually been a Houri for your Jihadi heros. (Ha, nice post I guess... may be you will find a job application in a Madarassah)


Do us a favour - Please do not talk about Hinduism and it`s philosophical schools of thought with out knowing what they are !!!

Thankyou everyone... your comments will really help me convince those who think that muslims and hindus can live together.. If this is how you respond to someone pointing a finger through an article then I can only wonder what would have happened if someone would have said something on your face. I have heard alot about how Gujrat was an exception not a rule and that the urban middle class is tolerant. Given that most on this forum claim to belong to this class, it comes as an eye opener that even they, given a chance would comeout of their shells once faced with truth. It was all great and tolerable when a muslim woman was talking about condoms and rights of women, but as soon as the topic switched the reality of the ``enlightened`` people comes forth. Majority of posts are personal attacks and on her nationalism and religion trying to tarnish her image yet not many answer the charges. Very tolerant indeed

Farzana #38,

``This was bound to happen...most Hindus on this board have begun to talk for all
of India, even when some may not be living here...``

Could you please scroll back, look at the interacts prior to this post of yours, and
figure out what fraction of the respondents are Hindu ? Seriously, do it. Then tell us
how many INDIAN non-Hindus broadly agree with you (sorry, Pakistani wah wah`s
don`t count as much on this thread - no offense to anyone from Pakistan) on this
board. It may be instructive.

Once you are done with that, please give us a list (even a vague list will do) of
things that non-Muslim Indians can do to improve the life of Indian Muslims. You
will surely appreciate that any obfuscation here would make your grievances
appear less than genuine.

fv,
.... sorry, i love you too .. so carry on ..... but i must say that muslims in general are not exactly model citizens when they are a minority ..... even here, in the great melting pot of america, they are the proverbial bone in the kebab ..........

hindivi,
........... sorry, bit i can`t drop the ``horrible hindoo`` unless you can suggest something better .......... how about horrid hindoos, or heeng-laced hindoos, or hanuman`s horde ..... naaaa - nothing beats the ``horrible hindoo``...............

....... i have nothing to say, but i wanted to add to the number of interacts

I love the Pakistani Wah Wahs on this thread. The almost orgasmic relief that Indian Muslims are unhappy. :0)

re: this article
This article starts out to analyse the predicament of IMs who, according to the author, are forced to join the mainstream and get co-opted.
Then, there is talk about hindu fundamentalism and quotes from Sir Vidia, and Guru Gowalkar`s (and not Golwalkar as wrongly spelled) book ``We Or Our Nationhood Defined``.
BTW, this book is out of print and few in India have even heard of this guy (whereas everyone knows who Gandhi is) and a miniscule have read this book (published in 1936 i think).
Then the author brings in the Gudia episode, BJP, Zakaria....
Now i know why my head is spinning.
Sridhar

Excellent article. You touch on all the poignant points. In the ``great democracy`` India, being a minority is a curse. Either you have to become part of Hinduism (which as a Sikh I refuse to be, but the BJP and other communal parties would very much like me to be) or you have to be considered a foreigner and a traitor for as long as you live. Moreover, in this very ``democratic nation``, it is so difficult to voice your opinion in the mainstream media for fear of being called a traitor.

I understand and appreciate your views. We need more vociferous people like you out there. Well done.

Simran

BaRa shor sunte thay pehloo meiN dil ka
jo cheera tou ikk qatra-e-khooN na nikla

... where are the champions of freedom of speech...

re:#20 by hindvi
very well said.
But FV does not know the language of conciliation.
Sridhar