“Final” solution?

gandiv (#9):

problem with kachawadis like yourself is that you dont want to see. you want freaking research/citations to confirm the atrocites in Gujarat. you choose to be ignorant when hindus are killing muslims but would cry a thousand tears if few kar sewaks are given their due treatment.

ISI etc can go to any prison or kaala paani, i dont care. but the fact is that the murderers of VHP/Bajrang Dal should be bought to justice which is highly unlikely in the ``secular`` state of Gujarat.

The Times of India Online
Printed from timesofindia.indiatimes.com >Cities >Ahmedabad

---

`I`d worship Hitler, not Gandhi`

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2004 06:37:18 PM ]

AHMEDABAD/VADODARA: When asked about his perception of Gandhi, a mass communication student, Vishal Desai, says that he would rather worship Hitler than him. This was just one of the many grossly irreverent views of the youth who have all but forgotten about the man they were told was the Father of the Nation.

Gandhians attribute the disinterest of the youth towards Gandhi to the lack of efforts made by the government, schools and parents to give the right perception of Gandhi.

Says Gandhian Jagdish Shah from Vadodara, ``An impression has been created among youngsters that Gandhi`s only goal was to give India Independence, and that he had no role after that.``

``Unfortunately, the leaders who took over the reins of the country after Independence were such that one would not have any respect for them,`` he adds.

Shah also holds teachers and parents responsible for Gandhi not remaining a towering figure among youngsters.

``When I was a student, teaching was a passion. Teachers spent time with the children even after school and suggested extra reading outside the syllabus for a better outlook. And given the kind of image our education gives of Gandhi, it is only understandable that they don`t have respect for him.``


He adds that parents on their part couldn`t care less about what their children learn at school or if they are getting the right values.

``The younger generation does not really know Gandhi or his values and just sneer at him. The only source of information, the textbooks, also give a very stereotypical description of Gandhi`s contribution. The authors themselves have not researched sufficiently before writing about Gandhi, and end up making him seem like just another national leader,`` says Gandhian Jitendra Desai.

To create some understanding about Gandhian thought, the Gujarat Vidyapeeth has begun taking tests on the subject among nearly 25,000 students every year.

``We also are planning to do a project with students of class 1 to 12, where books and other material on Gandhi will be circulated and his ideology will be discussed. It is imperative that the youth know why Gandhi came to be known as the Father of the Nation,`` Desai adds.

Historian Dwijendra Tripathi feels that too much is made about whether Gandhi is relevant or not. ``Why don`t people understand that he was relevant for his times? He mobilised people to fight and had the courage to bring the freedom struggle from dinner tables to streets,`` he says.

``He was also the first one to talk about nationhood. Gandhi has not failed, we have failed to understand him,`` he adds.

Human rights activist Rohit Prajapati on the other hand holds the distortions in history books, deliberately included by the BJP, as responsible for Gandhi`s image taking a beating among youngsters.

``It is one thing to interpret facts of history in your own way, but quite another when you distort the facts themselves,`` he says.





Phone Card

© Bennett, Coleman and Co., Ltd. All rights reserved.

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Gandiv:

WOW! I am surprised at your response. Well, I am glad you took my post in the right spirit. I am Indian before I am Hindu and that actually means something to me insofar as fellow Indians are concerned.

Gandiv

Left for dead doesnt mean dead. by the way I am not implying hindus as a whole are responsible for this. I have lived all my life among Hindus and know better than that. but some hindus in gujrat have done this, while others have either chosen to turn a blind eye, why is it so hard to acknowledge this?

#46 by Urstruly

yo .... are U one of that crowd ? you know ..... ``jews escaped`` rumour crowd ?

I am really busy now so can`t really go through your link and can`t give you info regarding all possible jewish surnames.... I can only recall what i read at the time following 911.

Goose stepping morons like you would be better off reading the facts before subscribing to internet rumours. Well ..... Unless, of course, if you are a cunning liar who creates lies in order to propogate your agenda.

I for one, would not dishonour the memories of innocent victims of 911 ( which includes many jewish people ) by subscribing to vicious lies.

Stuka,

I didn`t mean to jusify the killings of innocent citizens in the name of religion. I take back my statement and apologize.

All I wanted to do was to bring in some facts that these self-appointed analysts and judges of humanity find safe to ignore and picture the whole story from a intereted view point.

I also condem Nazism as much, may be more that probably you do. So don`t bring in the divine justice on hapless people just due to me. Thanks for your pulling me back though.

``My take:
1. Did you ever have your folks returning home from Mecca and being burnt or bombed by religious thugs??? ``

No relevance to killing people who had nothing to do with the killing or burning in the first place.

``2. Have you ever asked what was the fault of 58 innocent childrens and women in S8 of Sabarmati express??? ``

Same as above. No one is saying have mercy on killers. But I don`t want Hindus in Europe or America to be killed because some nutcase Hindu was arrested for trying to sell a missile to undercover FBI agents.

``3. Did you ever question the provoking announcements from the Godhra mosque at the time of riot that stopped and delayed the fire-fighters alongwith their water tanker, that could have stopped the car from burning??? ``

And that supports the killing of Muslims in Ahmedabad how?

``4. Do you know why the local muslims of Godhra acted against police the next day when police were there to arrest the culprits??? Mind you this was even before riots occured. ``

Was the aftermath limited to Godhra? No. Nuff said.

If this moron is a Guju, then the Earthquake that hit this state of killers was Divine Justice. The preemptive kind :)

Gandiv:

Dude, did you learn English from Rapidex English Speaking Course?

Hindvi said ``left for dead``. ergo, the woman survived.

As far as the rest of your specious logic is concerned, know this..I have no reason to debate someone like you who holds death by assosiation as legitimate. All I can say is that I personally will do everything in my power as an Individual and Hindu to debase, destroy and eventually exterminate wannabe Nazi thugs like you.

If this involves lobbying the US for an invasion of Iindia if some freakazoid like you or Thackeray or Modi takes power, then God Willing I will do it.

Till that point I take satisfaction in seeing you Chaddiwallas getting knocked out of power and scream impotently.

Regards

Correction:

Dost mittar

Like the author of this article Rakesh Sharma is not a totally balanced guy. the author ofcourse is an extreme example, i.e. one who believes 9/11 was a conspiracy to defame muslims. Rakesh sharma when I spoke with him about the BJP and India/Gujarat (this was when the BJP was still in power), said look at what the US is doing to the muslims in America, i.e. patriot act etc! and a few indian muslims there agreed!

Hindvi,

Here`s what you wrote:
``Bilkees Beghum from the Godhra relief camp told a tale that seemed to confirm a recurrent pattern in most places, according to survivors` accounts. She was stripped, gang-raped, her baby was killed before her, she was then beaten up, then burnt and left for dead.``

How the hell Bilkis told the ``story`` to reporters when she was already burnt and dead?

You haven`t bothered to read the article that you quoted, have you???

Sri # 42

Of all the victims of 9/11 including world trade center, the pentagon, and all jijacked planes I found only one Adler:

Lee Adler, 48, Springfield, N.J.*

And I found only two Cohens:

Florence Cohen, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin Sanford Cohen, 28, Edison, N.J.*

This is the official list of victims:

http://www.september11victims.com/september11Victims/victims_list.htm

I have sifted thru this list several times and found that most the dead seem to be of Italian origin, persumably Cathlic, who are quite common in NY-NJ area.

Hindvi

you are preaching to the convert. My point was that in Pakistan we also have problems which are as serious as that in India or may be more because they are systematic rather than spontaneous.

Urstruly

you have no idea of the kind of humiliation women underwent in gujrat. in some villlages they were strippped naked and made to run through the main street (infront of other hindu women) then they were made to pe, and finally raped. in other places they were stripped and raped sometimes infront of their children and male members of their families including fathers and brothers. in large numebrs of cases they were simply burnt. the mutilation of their bodies while alive and then later when dead attested to the extreme hate and urge to humilate on the part of their assailants. They also meant to terrorise the victims in running away and leaving their land/property. The economic boycott of those that remained continues till today more than 2 years later.

In some cases they continue to live in the same villages though in most cases the muslims just dissapeared leaving behind their gutted property and land. few rape victims have come forward mostly they are those who lost their children, husbands or were horrificly burnt , those who had a chance of getting married or whose families survived have not reported, if you have the time read this.

Link:http://www.geocities.com/shrawan_k_s/Communalism/Gujrat/TheSurvivorsSpeakX.html.htm


.

I am posting an excerpt of the report here below from


http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/TanikaSarkarJUL02.html

``Women have been killed in very large numbers. At the mass grave that was dug on March 6 to provide burial to 96 bodies from Naroda Patiya, 46 women were buried. Bilkees Beghum from the Godhra relief camp told a tale that seemed to confirm a recurrent pattern in most places, according to survivors` accounts. She was stripped, gang-raped, her baby was killed before her, she was then beaten up, then burnt and left for dead. For variety`s sake, other women also had acid thrown upon them, and then burnt in fires. A womens` fact-finding report sums up the usual procedure: ``..rape, gang rape, mass rape, stripping, insertion of objects into their body, molestationÖ a majority of rape victims were burnt alive.`` Before they were finally killed, some were beaten up with rods and pipes for almost an hour. Before or after the killing, their vagina would be sliced, or would have iron rods pushed inside. Similarly, their bellies would be cut open or would have hard objects inserted into them. A 13-year old girl, Farzana, had a rod pushed into her stomach, and was then burnt. A mother reported that her three-year old baby girl was raped and killed in front of her, while elsewhere daughters reported on the rapes of their mothers, now dead. Kausar Bano, a young girl from Naroda Patiya, was several months pregnant. Several eyewitnesses testified that she was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword to disgorge the foetus which was then hacked to pieces and roasted alive with the mother.

At Fatehpura, young girls were paraded naked. After they were rescued by a Muslim ambulance service, they travelled to the camp without a stitch on them. Other victims arrived naked at camps, too, after acid had been poured upon their clothes, which they tore off in agony from their burning and peeling bodies.

Medina Mustafa Ismail Shaikh reported from Kalol camp: ``My daughter was like a flower, still to experience lifeÖThe monsters tore my beloved daughter to piecesÖthe mob was saying, cut them to pieces, leave no evidenceÖI saw fires being lit. After some time, the mob started leaving. And it became quiet.``

It had become very quiet, for the voices of children could not be heard. A very large number of parents, especially mothers, had to see their children die in excruciating agony before they, too, were tortured and burnt. At the mass grave for 96 people, they buried a six month old baby. Fatimabibi, who came to Delhi to testify to the violence, kept repeating dementedly: ``Innocent (masoom) tender babies were crying for water, they filled them up with petrol and then lit them up.`` At Randhikapur village, a young pregnant woman first saw her baby cut to pieces. Then she was raped and her foetus was ripped out and killed. They beat her up and left her for dead. Four year old Asif died of 90 per cent burns after several days` of agony. Before he died, The Hindu took a photograph of his bandaged face, out of which his large, beautiful, fully aware eyes were blazing out.``

Dost mittar

Like the author of this article Rakesh Sharma is not a totally balanced guy. the author ofcourse is an extreme example, i.e. one who believes 9/11 was a conspiracy to defame muslims. Rakesh sharma when I spoke with him about the BJP and India/Gujarat (this was when the BJP was still in power), said look at what the US is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan !!!

I then changed the topic.

Jang,

You said:
``So, I would like to understand where the Gujratis stand? This is the ``peaceful`` community, full of Jains who dont even want to kill a bacteria.``

My take:
1. Did you ever have your folks returning home from Mecca and being burnt or bombed by religious thugs???

2. Have you ever asked what was the fault of 58 innocent childrens and women in S8 of Sabarmati express???

3. Did you ever question the provoking announcements from the Godhra mosque at the time of riot that stopped and delayed the fire-fighters alongwith their water tanker, that could have stopped the car from burning???

4. Do you know why the local muslims of Godhra acted against police the next day when police were there to arrest the culprits??? Mind you this was even before riots occured.

If your answer to all of the above is ``NO``, I don`t see anything wrong to blame the aftermath.

As far as bullying a Gujarati is concerned, pat yourself, you`re lucky you haven`t seen the correct one.

#1 by stuka on October 5, 2004 11:23am PT


``Yes. Four thousand Jews stayed home and Mossad did the 09/11 attacks to blame Islam. ``

In the days following the 911, this internet rumour really baffled me. Thankfully I am neither a liar nor a lazy idiot. I simply went to the CNN website and looked at the names of 911 victims. I was baffled how many Jewish names were in that list. The cohens, the Adlers, etc, etc,

filthiest b@st@rds propogate lies.