The Trouble With Irshad Manji

hisexcellency,

you say, ``In contrast, other religions of the world contain so many mythological beliefs (such as Holy Trinity, Reincarnation, etc) that Islam`s inconsistencies (about role of women, minorities, etc) seem trivial in comparison ``

....... nonsense!.......there is no harm in believing hogwash like the holy trinity and reincarnation because these are private fears and superstitions that have very little impact on society in general ........ on the other hand, outdated beliefs about the role of women and minorities leads to discrimination and persecution .......... is that so difficult to understand ? .......... i have yet to meet a hindoo who has tried to ride a rodent to work because it says so in their scriptures, but i know a lot of muslims who mistreat their women and view ahmedis as less than human .................let`s not obfuscate

amit,

......... no need to coddle the jihadists...... like i said before:

................. there are a lot of well-meaning apologists, like fareed zakaria, who believe that if you change the economics and the politics that somehow, miraculously, the muslims will change .............. their theory says that if we allow the mullahs to take part in parliamentary politics and then raise the per capita gdp above the magic $4000 threshold, then people will stop trying to blow themselves up and flying planes into tall buildings ............ fat chance! .........

............ islam is different ..... just take a look at the muslims in north america - they make more than 4000 a year and get to vote every four years, and yet they continue to pine for the khilafat and given half a chance would be out their running around the desert in their night clothes slaughtering jewish tribes ........... it is an insidious ideology, an ill wind....

re. amit #128:
``Do you really believe that the suicide bombings, bomb blasts and beheadings are actually doing any favors to the political struggles of muslims? Is it enhancing the stature of Islam in any way? ``
Yaar, two problems here: One, you`re lumping together actions performed with completely different motivations and rationales, just because they have the common denominator of being perpetuated by ``Muslims``-- never mind that some of the Muslims doing stuff like relieveing folks of their heads were-- and probably still are-- really not very religiously persuaded at all-- for them Islam being little more than a politcal focal point.

re. enchancing the stature of Islam, do you really think that those Muslims (merely `cultural` or otherwise) could give a damn that they are not enhancing the stature of Islam in the eyes of a rest-of-the-world that they have come to see as unjust oppresors of Muslims?

Your language, particularly that which follows, in oddly inclusive, making no distinction between those that support such militant means of statement making, bargaining and/or retaliation and those that don`t -- let alone distinguishing between the different motives and degrees of jsutification among those that DO support such means. You write (caps mine):
``
``It may give YOU momentary satisfaction that you are able to inflict some casualties, but the only real thing it is accomplishing is getting even harsher responses and a lack of sympathy for your causes. Since the muslim world is weaker in terms of resources, that means death and destruction for the foreseeable future and a waste of your youth. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a perfect example of how this cycle of violence has completely ruined the Palestinians, when they could have had their own state by now.

I`d be interested to hear a more complete thesis on how the Palestianians would have achieved a state that would be anything less than an insult added to injury.

And it`s completely untrue that the Palestinians have been completely ruined BY their means of resistance to the occupation. Unless, again, you have a cogent thesis, opposing those of Chomsky and others, that the ghettoization and systematic dehumanization of the Palestinians has been quite deliberate state policy.

Neither is it true that this `violent struggle` -- in which, yes, three times as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed in the latest chapter-- has failed. Or perhaps you have some way to explain Sharon`s decision to pull out of the Gaza Strip in terms other than that of fear of more Palestinian reprisals in the form of rockets, bombs etc.

`` YOUR societies are becoming weaker by the day, your economies are going down the drain and your religion is getting a bad name all over the globe. America, Israel, Europe, India, China and Russia are all doing pretty well and prospering in the midst of all the chaos, but look at the Islamic world. There isn`t even one success story that you can point out.``

Well, there IS Turkey, where the army has allowed the islamic party a freer hand lately. And then there`s Malaysia. Indonesia isn`t exatly rotting either.

But it`s odd that you don`t seem to consider that a significant part of the reason many Muslim nations languish in the backwaters of civilization has exactly to do with the fact the nations you cite as success are `successful`.

Brucelee:

``Are you suggesting that we should never talk debate conceptualise or reckon with any aspect of religion in case we “muddle one’s understanding of it”?``

No.

``And you have no problem with “pinning down” things like secularism when it suits you.

I don`t pin down secularism because it`s precursor is itself undefined.

``I reckon you are a pompous intellectual fraud ;-)``

Maybe?

--Ibn

Re:tahmed#many

Chachaji, a picture is worth a thousand words......:-)

Good stuff...keep it up...

Re:#135 His Excellency

Bravo....you have hit the bull`s eye. This is exactly the right way for the Islamic world to move ahead. Islam offers a way of life. In that sense it is also an ideology that competes with other religions and ideologies in this world. The only way you can win that competition in today`s world is by showing results, i.e. it can actually improve people`s lives. Can you imagine if the Islamic world was as advanced as the western countries? People all over would be trooping over to their local maulana to convert, just as they troop over to the US embassy to immigrate. Nothing works like success!!

Ibn
//...Is it against the spirit of Hinduism to discuss what can be attributed to Hinduism and what cannot be?....//

I don`t know man - I have no idea about this ``spirit-of-hinduism`` thingy. But from what I have seen - you can throw anything to hinduism and chances are it will stick. Weird - ain`t it? :)

So yeah - if you want discuss about spirit of hinduism, or any other such exotic topics - you can do it. I don`t think anybody will stop you. Just that nobody I know has done it before. Nobody cares either.

++++

//...Given the interdenominational world we share, blah ..blah....//

``interdenominational world`` ??? Would you please ..... never mind :)

re: #114 by sameerJB

Your analysis is quite correct but it is not complete. There is an influential category of reformers that you didn`t include.

This category (let`s call it 1[c]) comprises Muslim bureaucrats, businessmen, educationists and Westernized politicians. Reformers belonging to this category believe that:

• There are indeed problems with orthodox Islamic doctrine but these problems constitute only 10% of the Islamic message. The remaining 90% of the Islamic message is still consistent and relevant to the 21st century. This is evident from the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially in Western countries, despite 9/11!


• The inconsistencies within Islamic message do not affect the core beliefs of a Muslim. A person can disobey the 10% inconsistent/irrational aspects of orthodox Islam, and still continue to live his/her life as a good Muslim. In contrast, other religions of the world contain so many mythological beliefs (such as Holy Trinity, Reincarnation, etc) that Islam`s inconsistencies (about role of women, minorities, etc) seem trivial in comparison


• If the Muslims are facing crises after crises in the world today, it is not because they don`t follow Islam strictly on a 24x7x365 basis. It is because they lack the economic, political and military power to deter aggression and assert their rights. To acquire economic, political and military power... Muslims need to unite among themselves, acquire education and technology. The OIC and Arab League must not become bickering grounds. The Islamic countries need to trade more with each other. Any group that tries to divide Muslims along dogmatic lines (e.g. Shia vs Sunni, Non-Ahmedi vs Ahmedi) and ethnic lines (Kurdish vs Arab/Turkish) must be silenced.


• In this world, Might is Right! The mighty can write the rules that suit them, and re-write those that don`t. The rhetoric about freedom, democracy and enlightenment is just a smokescreen that the Western civilized nations use to justify their lust for oil, global influence and imperialistic designs. At the end of the day, they are just as human as the Muslims are. Not a higher species, but just more powerful at present. Reducing the power imbalance between West and Islam is therefore a necessity for Muslims, even if they have to reduce this imbalance through proliferation of WMDs.


• Even if the Muslim states have to temporarily make peace with their enemies in order to build their strength, they should do so without any religious or moral qualms. Islam is a practical religion and the Prophet Muhammad was a worldly man who understood the dynamics of power & politics. Muslims need to remember that their permanent interests are economic + military + political power... and not the 24x7x365 adherence to Quranic teachings.

To summarize, this group of reformers believe that there isn`t much wrong with Islam (atleast 90% of it). The only thing wrong with Muslims is that they are disunited, poor, uneducated, militarily weak and obsessed with the idea that somehow more Islam will compensate for lack of unity, wealth, military power and education.

So the recipe is that we assume that everybody who claims to be a Muslim, is a Muslim. We don`t concern ourselves with how many times that person prays every day, or whether that person believes in Hazrat Ali or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Instead, we focus on those aspects that help Muslims acquire sophisticated weaponry, modern technology, a thorough education, economic security and political unity with fellow Muslims.

hamidm: and this picture of God as a Flying Old Man is not bad either.

and here is the laughing God (OK, laughing buddha - close enough).

and finally....drum roll... the Muslim God (a distorted image of himself).

amit, rshridhar, ashutosh, mohar11

Is it against the spirit of Hinduism to discuss what can be attributed to Hinduism and what cannot be? Given the interdenominational world we share, is there a need for highly intelligent and educated Hindus like to you to grapple with this issue? Among the Hindus you know, do you see a willingness to take up this challenge?

re. amit #119:
I think we all agree that harming innocents even out of vengeance is a no-no; and killing or maiming them is heinous.
However, I wonder how accurately one may term those wilfully employed in the service of invaders, for chiefly monetary gains (both the employers and employees) `innocent`. Unless I am doing it with a gun put to my head, I pretty much have to concede that driving a turck, or even cooking meals for, Halliburtons clients pretty much makes me a party to the war itself, and I`d be disingenuous to claim that all I was doing there was sitting quiet, minding my own business ... am sure you get the drift.

Incidentally, did anyone read/listen to the accounts of the Italian AID WORKERS captured and later released? Pretty educative, I`d say!

Re:urstruly#121

The trouble with your logic is that it assumes that everyone in a democracy is responsible for the acts of the government. That is plainly ridiculous since you know quite well that literally half if not more people in the US are against the Iraq war. A democracy is not a constant referendum of every policy executed by the government. The elected representatives can and do make mistakes based on their legislative and executive powers, as a result of which they lose elections.

Even putting aside ethical considerations, the question is are you getting the results that you want? Do you really believe that the suicide bombings, bomb blasts and beheadings are actually doing any favors to the political struggles of muslims? Is it enhancing the stature of Islam in any way? It may give you momentary satisfaction that you are able to inflict some casualties, but the only real thing it is accomplishing is getting even harsher responses and a lack of sympathy for your causes. Since the muslim world is weaker in terms of resources, that means death and destruction for the foreseeable future and a waste of your youth. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a perfect example of how this cycle of violence has completely ruined the Palestinians, when they could have had their own state by now. Your societies are becoming weaker by the day, your economies are going down the drain and your religion is getting a bad name all over the globe. America, Israel, Europe, India, China and Russia are all doing pretty well and prospering in the midst of all the chaos, but look at the Islamic world. There isn`t even one success story that you can point out.

Note that I am not questioning the political basis for these struggles. All I am saying is that the means employed are not working and are actually making you weaker. It would be much more effective if you firstly take away all Islamic references to any of these political struggles, so that the religion is not dragged into this. Secondly there should be serious negotiations to find solutions to some of these problems especially the Israeli-Palestinian problem, where the contours of a solution are fairly well known. If fighting is necessary at all, then guerilla war should be resorted only against military/political targets. I know that people get emotional in a conflict situation but sometimes it is necessary to step back and see if what you are doing is working or not. At least the US has elections to get rid of Bush, what process does the Islamic world have to change strategy?

amit,

``People start associating Islam as a religion with these acts, creating even further enmity against Islam. Since Islam explicity forbids such acts, the adoption of Islamic symbols to commit unislamic acts is a travesty of the faith and muslims need to get vocal against these acts. Ends do not justify the means.``

I agree with much of what you say however as far as perceptions of non-Muslims towards Muslims is concerned, I don`t think any amount of vocalization from Muslims would help. Quite frankly, if people need an excuse to hate, they`ll find one no matter how fringe an example. The American govt used OBL as an excuse to invade Iraq...and to this day people are buying that line.

The `only` voice that would be considered acceptable is an obsequious and pliant one. Some Americans simply don`t want to hear about Muslim grievances. And this demand or desire for Muslims to vocalize a (pro-war) stance against terrorism is more akin to a demand for a public penance.

I have no problems calling OBL a ruthless murderer to good hearted people such as yourself, however when the demand comes from others who support murderers in their own right...then I have to hesitate.

Now it still remains to show why the double standard applied to Muslims is acceptable. I mean, I have yet to hear anyone demand or recommend the same kind of action from those who values Western principles. And to a very large degree, the conflicts targeting some Muslims are quite heavy on the ideological rhetoric.

-Cheers

hamidm: I got problems with God too. How come everyone else gets to do creative artwork on God muslims dont? I think the statue below is pretty neat, actually.