The Trouble With Irshad Manji

fartex

``Well, I think a skunk has every right to tell an asshole it stinks``

Do you tell yourself that when you look in the mirror?

The introspection has started here!

You are a brave man vertex, haemmoroids and all, the reform of your religion has begun with you ;-)

Mordant_Muslim

``Easy. Religion should not be pinned down due to its complexity. To prescribe a working definition to a religion would muddle one`s understanding of it.``

Are you suggesting that we should never talk debate conceptualise or reckon with any aspect of religion in case we “muddle one’s understanding of it”? That is a recipe for slippery sliding and denial of any kind of judgment.

And you have no problem with “pinning down” things like secularism when it suits you.

I reckon you are a pompous intellectual fraud ;-)

re stuka#97:

Just trying to give the new mutant on the block a chill pill from his own pharmacy!

re Sameer#114:

I agree with your characterization albeit a small clarification. I don`t believe in the rituals of Islam, however it does serve as an anchoring point for me.

re soulat #120:

``People change; religion does not change.``

No sir. People change and correspondingly religion has to change too if it has any chance of surviving.

later
-sac

sameerjb,

....... if i had my druthers i would go out and kill god with my bare hands, but unfortunately that is not possible because i don`t know where to find him ........... alternatively, we could go out and tear down all churches, masjids and temples to fat rodents, but that is not possible either because there are billions of idiots out there who, for whatever reason, need their superstitions like i need my espresso ......... heck, i can`t even stop mrs hamidm from pulling out the prayer rug a couple of times a year and making a spectacle of herself in front of the children !

........... given the circumstances, you have to do both: beat some sense into the muslims and, when they are not watching, change their precious religion ............ islam, as it stands today, is totally incompatible with modernity, decency and good personal hygiene - did you see the picture of those terrorists sitting in a jail cell in yemen brushing their teeth with a twig? ................. there are a lot of well-meaning apologists, like fareed zakaria, who believe that if you change the economics and the politics that somehow, miraculously, the muslims will change .............. their theory says that if we allow the mullahs to take part in parliamentary politics and then raise the per capita gdp above the magic $4000 threshold, then people will stop trying to blow themselves up and flying planes into tall buildings ............ fat chance! .........

............ islam is different ..... just take a look at the muslims in north america - they make more than 4000 a year and get to vote every four years, and yet they continue to pine for the khilafat and given half a chance would be out their running around the desert in their night clothes slaughtering jewish tribes ........... it is an insidious ideology, an ill wind....

............ therefore, islam must be changed along with trying to change the muslims ......... it is easier to change the muslims but there is a danger that when you are not watching they will revert to the book - so we must change the book ......... in one way it is a blessing that the book is written in arabic and most muslims can`t understand arabic so most of what they think is islam is based on hearsay and therefore they can be easily manipulated ........ so you work on the muslims around you that you can influence and convince them to give up their silly ways .......with a lot of hard work and perseverance you will have some success ......... of course, some tough cases like urstruly might require extreme measures ! ....... but long term relief will only come if you change the underlying philosophy .........

.......... but how do you change a book that itself claims that it is the final word of this invisible god and cannot be changed ?.......... i know it is bizzare catch-22, but it a real hurdle that has to be overcome ..........one way would be to find the six chapters that the goat ate and send the mordant archaeologist on a desert hunt for copies of the koran that usman hid under his bed .............. but while he is doing that, it might not be a bad idea to get together a panel of folks to come up with a new interpretation to replace the hanafi-ghazali-maudoodi version .......... but i don`t know if irshad manji would be a good candidate for the panel - people like her are okay cheerleading from the sidelines ............

#118 by amit

I agree with Amit here. One of the central messages of hinduism is that God is present in every living/non-living entity and hence everything is sacred. But Worshipping rats is really stretching that message beyond its logical limits.

Hence worshipping rats is a strict no no - no matter what. It`s simply un-healthy and has a potential for creating somekind of epidemic. That temple should be sanitized and cleared of all the rodents. if locals make a fuss, then put a statue of a rat :)

Here is an example how you can never say never to reforms in religious issues.

Amit

I think Vertex in his number 90 has adequately answered your contention. Everybody has to die one day. That is an inevitability no one can deny. But let us suppose that you are given two options as to your prefernce in the way you will die. One option is beheading on a video camera and other option is for you to die in an inferno caused by a precision bomb while you were having dinner with your family. Which one would you prefer? Would you prefer that somone say ``allahoakbar`` or ``in the name of freedom and democracy`` before your neck is smoten with a knife or you are torn into pieces by the precision bomb. Would you even care what killed you or why? Obviously, you would not prefer any of these ways over the other. You would rather prefer to die peacefully in your bed with your loved ones around you. That is the reason killing a human being unjustly is wrong. So the question is what is then the justice? What is a just killing then? In every situation one party is the aggressor and other is the aggrieved. One party lies, initiates aggression and transgresses and other is the victim. In modern world no one is innocent. Especially in a democracy. In a democracy, since the government is by the people, the people have the power to control the government. Government represents people. Any transgression thus done by government is actually done by the people when they sanctioned it. In the past the nature of government was different. There used to be kings and monarchs. People could be forced into fighting expansionist wars; king or despots were not under any obligation to inform their people of the reasons why he stoked them into the infernos of war. In that situation, people could be given benefit of doubt of being forced into a predicamnet. Islam in that case emphasizes to make distinction between combatant and non-combatants. But when a democracy committs an act of aggression then it is a premeditated, deliberate, and publically well debated matter. Government is under strict obligation to inform people as to what is at stake. Every person in the democracy thus have a stake in the decision that they make. Every citizen is responsible. If they sanction a just war, they are responsible; if they sanction an act of aggression they are responsible. That is why democarcy demands an extra vigilance on part of people to control the excesses of its government. There is accountability in democracy; and sometimes the one who is holding you accountable may not be a fellow citizen, it might be the victim of your aggression. I do not think that in such cases Islam`s moral and legal code regarding non-combatants can be invoked. Unless we find the root cause of a conflict and separate transgressor from the victim, all we can say about collateral damage or dying women and children is that shit happens.

Re:rshridhar#111 and ashutosh#102

I was merely expressing my revulsion at the sight of worshipping live rats that I saw in a video clip about a temple in Rajasthan or Gujrat (I don`t exactly remember). There were literally hundreds of live rats all over the place. People were offering sweets and flowers to these rodents. There was a legend of some sort about why people were worshipping these rodents. I do not even want to think of the composition of the ``prasad`` that was being doled out by the priest!! God only knows how many holy rats had ``blessed`` it. While I am quite familiar with hindu philosophy, it is one thing to think in the abstract. It is another thing to actually witness unhygenic, dirtly rodents being worshipped. It just grossed me out completely while I was watching it.

Re:vertex#99

It is appalling and shameful to deliberately harm civilians in any conflict. No matter who does it, wether it is Israelis, Palestinianas or US, it is wrong and inhuman. Now if you take an unethical, inhuman act and associate religious symbols to it, like the suicide bombers chanting Quranic verses prior to the bombing, it creates a double whammy. People start associating Islam as a religion with these acts, creating even further enmity against Islam. Since Islam explicity forbids such acts, the adoption of Islamic symbols to commit unislamic acts is a travesty of the faith and muslims need to get vocal against these acts. Ends do not justify the means.

#117 by nasah
``Manji is pointing to that Islam -- a Western Islam -- different from the superstitious supernatural ritualistic dehumanized Oriental Islam..... ``

Now we have a new sect ``Western Islam`` started by Manji and this fatbrain ``nasah`` is the PR man for that. So what we have in western Islam dummy? Namaz in Church? and Haj in Vatican?
People change; religion does not change. Islam is still the same people have become fanatics. You don`t change religion, you change people by various means.


This is better than the whole discussion on this board.

A Russian, an American, and a Taliban were talking one day.
The Russian said, ``We were the first in space!``
The American said, ``We were the first on the moon!``
Not to be outdone, the Taliban said, ``So what? We have a space program, too, and we`re going to be the first on the sun!``
The Russian and the American looked at each other and shook their heads.
``You can`t land on the sun, you idiot! You`ll burn up!`` said the Russian.
To which the Taliban replied, ``We`re not stupid, you know. We`re going at night!``

rsridhar
//....such things like rat worship are often shown on Westerm media TV channels to defame hinduism...//

I don`t think western media is out to really ``defame`` hinduism - for them, it`s just a juicy story since it`s so weird, from their perspective.

Anyway - that`s bound to happen when you are trying to be ``all encompassing`` - all kinds of stuff get practiced and accepted.

there is indeed a dire need for a Western Reformed Islam -- its reformation would be considered complete -- when an Orthodox Muslim Organization would declare it a Non-Muslim Organization.......

Manji is pointing to that Islam -- a Western Islam -- different from the superstitious supernatural ritualistic dehumanized Oriental Islam.....

Sameerjb # 114

(I dont believe in the existence of god)

Be on the safe side. Believe. If he is not there, you do not lose much. If he is there, you are Ok.

I hope you believe in the search of `Ultimate Truth`.

NHK

rizwan,

you ask, ``Why is Quran able to inspire people at individual level and all ove the globe? ``

let me take a shot at the answer : a) because they don`t understand arabic, b) because most of them cannot read period (ummi and all that) , c) because they haven`t read any other book, d) because people like you keep on telling them how wonderful it is, e) because they are afraid of death, f) because they read the reviews on amazon.com, g)because it is funnier than catch-22, h) because they have a death wish and want to blow themselves up, i) because they don`t have cable tv

.......... i think the answer is a``ll of the above`` ..... what do you think ?


yawner or sleeper: a vice presidential debate ......... they should take both these guys and out back and shoot them to put them out of their misery ............ no football game on tv either - maybe i will read the koran ........... that`s right! another reason to read the koran - it is more inspiring than a vice presidential debate .............. that is my final answer !!!!!

We are thankful to Bina Shah for introducing Manji to Chowkies. I have not read her book which I could not find in Pakistan though it it is not banned peraps. Can anybody help me having this book? Or can Beena Shah, very kindly, loan this book tome? After all I am also a Shah.
Manji or her elk can have little impact on Muslims as Islam is the religion of the Ummies for which free reasoning and rationalism by its adherents has been made an anathema by the Mullah though the Prophet had based his Islamic Dahwa on his character and reason and the Quran says,``those who do not use `Aql` are worse than animals``. More later.

There are at least two kinds of people wishing reforms; [1a]those who wish to reform Islam and [1b]ones who wshe to reform Muslims. Out of these two, those who wish to reform Muslims are more liberal, more secular or less Islamic. Islam is not important for them.

There are at least two groups of people wishing to refrm Islam; [2a]those who think that Islam is inherently good but corrupted by the varied and wild interpretations from the scholars over the centuries who were on the payroll of rulers and twisted it to suit best the emploter/ ruler. Others [2b] think that Islam is tribal, Bedoin, Arab and in its original form might have suited the Muslim converts but now it is way out of sync with the modern world and society. Both of these groups have same target but they do not see eye to eye.

Where do hamidm and sac fit in these four categories? I guess in 1b and 2b. I am 1b for the easiest reason. I dont believe in the existence of god. Anything propagated now or in the past in the name of god, to me, is obsolete and north worth shaping life around it.

Most Pakistani liberals, particularly those in Pakistan belong to 1a and 2a categories. They can`t go as far in public as people living abroad can, as seen on chowk. Irshad Manji has not make a clear break from category 1 to 2 like Ibn warraq or Salman Rushdie. she is a believer, both in god and mohammed`s prophethood. She can`t ask for rational reforms like category 2 people except treading the murky Islamic methodology of Ijma and Ijtehad. That is like accepting the supremacy of Islam and testing the limits through Ijma and Ijtehad knowing well that when it comes to resisting change, Islam is notoriously well entrenched with high thick boundry walls. It is much easy to leave it and then chip it from out side. The dome will fell upon reformers if they try to break it from inside, crushing reformers before anybody else.

re:#93 by amit
Rats are worshipped by some tribals. In some areas, snakes are worshipped. But, these could at best be attributed to the ignorance of the people who indulge in such acts.
Hinduism, in its all encompassing embrace, did not exclude these tribal belief systems either. If it had, India would have not one but several religions called Vaishnavism, Shaivism etc. These are today just belief systems under the broad umbrella of Hindusims.
The fact is: our sages and seers saw whole cosmos as a manifestation of Divinity. The God is in every atom. So, however despicable rat worship was, sages condoned even that!
As one goes up on the spiritual ladder, one realizes the folly of such practises but then one has to first learn to count before one can do calculus, right?
Rat worship never killed anyone. But look at the harm a beautiful religion like Islam is doing through extreme teachings of Wahabism. I do not know what u will prefer but i will anyday accept rat worship to extremist religous beliefs.
BTW, such things like rat worship are often shown on Westerm media TV channels to defame hinduism. Needless to say, it is a pathetic attempt.
Sridhar