The Trouble With Irshad Manji

mordant,

..... i don`t know much about hindooism except what i have seen in ``indiana jones - temple of doom`` and on the discovery channel .......... but i do know a lot about islam - been one for more than forty five years ! ......... and i see a lot of muslims carry out islamic injunctions like sitting down to pee and killing kafirs ..........

........ and how do you know that there arn`t any giant rodents somewhere ?.........

malik,

you state: ``interestingly I know a lot of christians who rape women`` ...... but is the rape sanctioned by the law of the land?......... that, my friend, is the difference ...... the law of the islamic lands requires you to treat women as half-humans and ahmedis as inhuman......... why is that so difficult to understand ?

.........and your excellency i know that ``Islam is the only religion that allows a wife to divorce her husband and remarry`` - i have heard this nonsense a million times......... but it is a moot point .... the fact of the matter is that most civilized countries allow women to divorce their men regardless of what the bible says whereas most islamic countries allow their men to have four wives ............ you see the difference ?

Malik (#147):

“… in the case of ahmedis, i view them as non-muslim. and right or wrong, I have every right in the world to have that view …

A fine, fine position adopted by a mullah … where “right or wrong” is rendered irrelevant. No wonder the ummah is in their current mess. FYI: In Quran Allah uses the term Muslim for the believers … without giving anyone the right to declare others non-Muslim. This simple point has escaped most self-righteous Muslims, who act like self-appointed thakaedars of Islam … and have given the term ``Muslim`` a strong political/ideological connotation. Read on ...


On a more serious note …

The comment about mistreatment of Ahmadis reflects the prevalent position of Muslim leadership ... politcal as well as religious ... across the globe. How else can one explain laws in Pakistan that demand that an Ahmadi saying salam is posing as a Muslim … and should be imprisoned? Hundreds of Ahmadis have been locked up in prisons due to these draconian laws. Do note that such laws were passed in the name of Islam … and had critical support of the ummah and their scholars.

To further appreciate the fanatical leaning of the Muslim scholars … consider their support for death for apostasy. Death is also the “Islamic” punishment for adultery and blasphemy ... according to almost all ullema. Just ask mullah Urstruly or Naqshbandi here to verify. Imagine forming a society on basis that … if you leave Islam … you will be killed. And the ummah has a problem with Bush and neo-cons!!! Violent tendencies have become the hallmark of the present day Muslim leadership … and for the ummah to blame CIA or the Jews … only makes matters worse ...

Re: #146 by HisExcellency

``A Hindu woman is bound to one man all her life. If the man dies, the woman must die as his ``Satti`` on the cremation pyre. ``

Boss, from where did you get that info, from a madarsah?, from a friday sermon?.
Sati ``was`` a practice followed in old days by rajput women during wars to avoid getting enslaved by enemy rulers. Nobody does sati these days, infact, attempt to commit suicide is a crime by Indian penal code.

Hamidn:

``.......... i have yet to meet a hindoo who has tried to ride a rodent to work because it says so in their scriptures.....``

This has to be the worst analogy I`ve ever seen.

--Ibn

amit # 139 mohar11 #138

Thanks guys! :)

Re: #115 by nazarhayatkhan

[Be on the safe side. Believe. If he is not there, you do not lose much. If he is there, you are Ok.

I hope you believe in the search of `Ultimate Truth`.]

I can be little dishonest if it serves some useful purpose but believing in his existence serves no purpose. It does not guarantee ‘salvation’, it is difficult to believe something that set big bang on motion and then allowed men to lightly beat up their wives and many more nonsense without common sense. It is useless because the promised waiting period for rewards could be anywhere between few thousands to millions of years after death – Egyptian mummies are still being paraded in the museums instead of getting back to life for almost 3000 years. You are better off investing in Balochistan desert hoping for river Indus to change its path and pass through the area benefiting your descendants.

Re: #124 by sac

[I agree with your characterization albeit a small clarification. I don`t believe in the rituals of Islam, however it does serve as an anchoring point for me.]

That is fine. I have chosen less controversial and obscure Punjabiat or Punjabi identity as my anchoring point…:P

Re: #123 by hamidm2

I agree that at some stage, reforming Muslims and reforming Islam have to overlap and the fear of reformed ones falling back to original Islam in the presence of original Islamic doctrine is real. That is truer in the case of individuals taking one at a time. It happens all the time in all the religions. However, among Muslims, the momentum to offset such tendencies is not there. The momentum based on common sense, reason, rationality, modernity and humanism requires Muslims to change before trying to reform doctrine through new improved version. If you and I were to reform one person only, we would do all other common sense things before interpreting Quran, and other Islamic stuff.

Re: #135 by HisExcellency

I suppose you belong to the category 1[c], although you did not mention it in #135.

You have made an excellent case for 1[c] but I disagree with it on many points. A god according to monotheistic religions can not be 90 percent correct only. The admission of 10 percent bad opens a can of worms, which no serious Muslim – reformer or not – can handle it. The 10 percent are different for different people. Technically, 10 reformers choosing different 10 percent of the Islam would together make 100 percent of it bad or in need of reformation.

My second objection is that ‘90 percent good’ is not proportional to 90 percent good past and presence and makes future predictably same. Actually, despite 1[c] or your claim of it 90 percent good, it has been bad 90 percent of its 1400 year history for its followers sans ruling elite. Many people might contest this assertion and point to Abassid, Ottomans, Ummayids, and Muslims Empires of India but the truth remains that the goodness of Islam remained localized to a fighting machine in the service of rulers. The invaders to India, Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Abdali et al were not richer, more prosperous, ‘modern’ and advanced in any sense when they invaded subcontinent. Their soldier would fall for the storages of grain as US oil companies fall for oil fields these days as if grain storage was a goldmine. The desire for poorly fed to loot and plunder played more significant role in the success of Muslim invaders than spread or any superiority of religion. The true grandeur period was very short and can be summed up between three Andulasian rulers, two Abassids khalifas and two Ottomans kings.

My third objection is the persistence of 10 percent bad for so long. If it did not disappear in the last 1400 years, it is likely to stay for foreseeable future. If it is only 10 percent bad than it must contain master genes of Islam which can not be disciplined without accepting its implications on the remaining 90 percent good. It is this 10 percent that distinguishes Islam from the rest in many ways. It consolidates Islamic ummah identity through association of poor, uneducated, larger average families, poor hygienic conditions, lower saving rate due to rituals associated with one of its pillar in the name of mythic forefather named Ibrahim and so on.

My fourth objection is that you relied heavily on the current squeeze Islam is in the geopolitical arena due to fanatics, scriptural fundamentalists, political fundamentalists, Islamists etc. That is only tip of the iceberg for me. I have been saying same things before 9/11/2001 at chowk, and my interactions prior to 9/11 can be looked in the chowk files. Actually all this Islamic terrorism is rather recent and more useful for milking by the interested parties than harmful to Muslims. The biggest disadvantages of Islam have been around for centuries. It is the conditions of Muslims around the world in comparison with their neighbors unless one does not care for the miserable condition in this world for the sake of rewards in the afterworld. It has nothing to do with plundering resources in the areas dominated by Muslims, colonialism, lack of unity, lack of common markt, lack of ummah, impotent OIC etc. It has been always the result of Islamic culture practiced by Muslims. Near zero literacy rate for women, compared to 10 percent literacy rate for men for Muslims on the eve of partition had nothing to do with colonialism (somehow more discriminatory to Muslim women than men?), cunning Hindu bania, Zionist conspiracies, CIA, plundering of natural resources, lack of unity and all else. The ratio is still bad compared to rest of the world. What on earth US invasion of Iraq for oil or whatever has to do with this lopsided literacy for men?

The case for reformation among Muslim existed for centuries before 9/11/2001. It might have been an eye opener for some people.

My sixth objection is that most of the goodness of Islam is actually some of the existing practices and common sense already practiced in the area where Islam originated. The problematic stuff arose from innovations and revelations. Islam was actually a step backward for women’s upward mobility, which Khadija and many others had stated to enjoy in Mecca and Madina poetesses were testing the limits by reading poetry in the gatherings of mostly men (mostly non-relatives) and without any hijab/ pudah etc. It is absolutely wrong to award any improved role of women in the society to Muslims. The women in the Arab region (also in India and China) started ahead of Europeans to begin with and remained ahead until Islam stated applying brakes after brakes and reducing them to pieces of property of men.

My sixth objection is that from the onset it suggests most of the people than it is better to live with 90 percent Islam than anything less than that – basically strengthening their resolve based on 90 percent. I can live on 90 percent of my salary without making much noise. Similarly the enthusiasm for any reform is totally gone once only 10 percent is deemed problematic. The 90 percent factor in anything is very satisfying. Please make it 9.0 percent and I would consider agreeing with you.

`` If the man dies, the woman must die as his ``Satti`` on the cremation pyre. ``

What BS man!

Amit #145

``The Israeli-Palestinian issue is a complex one which I don`t want to get into in detail. ``


Isn`t this just super. You don`t have time to understand what is Muslims issue in Kashmir. You don`t feel like understanding what is happening with Chechen Muslims. And you don`t want to know what is driving these people to madness but you have all the time in the world to give them sermons on what is the moral behavior in a conflict? If this is your attitude then tell me one good reason why these people shouldn`t tell you take a hike.

re: #137 by amit

I agree with your views. During the socialist days of Nehru, India had a severe image problem in the West. Although the Indian government was rich, the people were poor. India was seen as a dusty, struggling country but certainly not a shining country. The West stereotyped Hindus as underfed, irrational, supercilious and fatalistic.

But as India has embraced capitalism and reformed its economy, India`s image has also improved. West in general and Hollywood in particular does not disparage Hinduism as the religion of snake-charmers.

Prosperity makes a big difference in the attitudes of other people toward you. As they say, when you weep, you weep alone. When you laugh, the world laughs with you.

Tahmed Sahib,

India may have more primitive minds but it does not have repressive laws like honor killing, blasphemy and 4 witnesses requirement for rape written into its constitution.

hamidm # 141 writes ``i know a lot of muslims who mistreat their women and view ahmedis as less than human ``

interestingly I know a lot of christians who rape women. Police blotter in my local newspaper is full of such incidents on a daily basis. Does that mean christianity is bad? No!Should we identify those criminals as ``christians``? No! Then why do comedians like you keep bringing Islam in the picture for every crime that occurs in a society?

and which society in the world is free of viewing a different group of people as ``less than human``? Jewish kabbala views people like you and me as less then human. according to that book, you and I are in this world to serve the ``chosen people``. whites have viewed blacks and ``natives`` as less than human. ask any aboriginal in australia whose kids were taken away by the state. does australian government think that aboriginals don`t have human motherly and fatherly feelings? apparently so.

in the case of ahmedis, i view them as non-muslim. and right or wrong, I have every right in the world to have that view. they can view me as a non-muslim, if they like. but i have NEVER considered them less than human. YOU on the other hand are a bigoted man for suggesting and generalizing that.

You should keep your day job of stand-up comedian and not indulge in complicated things, like engaging in a rational discourse.

re: #141 by hamidm2

Perhaps you don`t know that Islam is the only religion that allows a wife to divorce her husband and remarry. Catholicism, Hinduism and Orthodox Judaism do not give a woman this right. A Hindu woman is bound to one man all her life. If the man dies, the woman must die as his ``Satti`` on the cremation pyre.

Truth is that western societies have themselves failed to live up to their liberal mythology. In ``civilized`` UK, a woman couldn`t own property until 1870, but ``oppressive`` Islam gave her this right in 610 AD. In ``civilized`` Switzerland, women couldn`t vote until 1971 whereas Iraqi, Pakistani and Iranian women had been casting ballots decades earlier than their Swiss sisters. The ``liberal`` USA, Germany, Argentina and France have yet to elect a woman as head of state during the last 200 years of their history. In contrast, ``oppressive`` Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Turkey have elected 5 women (Benazir, Haseena Wajid, Khalida Zia, Tansu Ciller, Megawati) during the last 50 years as heads of state.

If the misconstrued ``outdated beliefs`` didn`t prevent Muslim women from becoming commercial pilots, politicians, judges, lawyers, educationists, artists and bureaucrats... then perhaps these outdated beliefs are not that widespread anyway.

I mean, how many Muslims actually apply the strict Taliban/Saudi code? My guess is less than 5%. The rest have learnt to appreciate the superior substance of Islam without getting distracted by the problematic 10% part.

Re:PM#143

Please look at my comments in their proper context. If you look at my exchanges with vertex and urstruly, I had mentioned that these acts (suicide bombings, beheadings of civilians etc) are an inhuman and unethical way to fight political battles and they go completely against Islam. Hence their perpetrators should not associate islamic symbols with these unislamic acts, which they currently do. To this urstruly was replying that since the US, Israel are democracies and the people elect their government, all the civilians are responsible. Hence committing these acts do not go against islamic principles. That is why I asked him if this was the right way to push your cause and if it was getting any results.

The Israeli-Palestinian issue is a complex one which I don`t want to get into in detail. However, we know that in 2000, the two sides led by Barak and Arafat were very close to a deal brokered by the US. There were some issues with right of return etc. but otherwise Palestinians were getting their own country on entire West Bank and Gaza. The remaining issues could have been resolved with some further diplomacy but Arafat chose to walk away and launch the new intifada. Somehow the thought of just accepting West Bank and Gaza as a permanent solution was not acceptable to him. Since then, it has been devastating for the Palestinians, with Sharon coming to power and all the violence and hardship they have had to endure.

If you think that the Palestinians have actually gained from the intifada, I disagree with you totally. Even the Palestinians will disagree with you on that. Sharon is grabbing prime land in West Bank and building a fence that has virtually made the Palestnians live in giant prisons. They cannot go to work, get an education or make a decent living. They face humiliation every day in their life. Their young people have no future to speak of.

I also take exception to your insinuation that the success of the countries that I cited has been at the cost of muslims. That displays a victim mindset that is completely divorced from reality. The West, India, China etc are succeeding due to their hard work, focus on economy and proper management of resources. The conflict with the muslim world is a drag on everyone, although not a major one yet. Nevertheless, most of the world would be happy to have lasting peace with the muslim world, since that would free up their resources to concentrate on development and other activities.

Re:Modern_Dharma#134

Speaking from my personal experience, most educated, urban hindus don`t really want to spend their time on religion and religious issues. I think hindus are well aware that religion, in general, has its limitations and it is futile to look for all answers to our modern world problems in ancient scriptures or practices. The religious teachings are a good set of general principles to guide your life, but not much beyond that. Of course, it is fun to participate in Dussehra, Diwali, Holi and the occasional visit to the local temple when the Mrs gets spiritually motivated to do so :-). Also, if you are single, then there are additional perks in participating in these events :-). Beyond that, who has the time to spend on this? There are better things to do like acquiring education, career etc.

correction: poat#138 is addressed to Modern_Dharma