The Trouble With Irshad Manji

re:#43 by hindvi
``The history of the west is an example as is that of Hinduism in the southern Indian state of kerala, which on HDI ranks as high as many developed countries, despite a far lower percapita income, thanks to universal literacy and health care, it is also the largest consumer of Newsprint percapita in the third world. it also has the best indicators for women`s development and rights and serves as a development model for the world bank.``

Kerala has prerennial problems of Industrial unrest and no big Industrial tycoon is willing to set up a shop there. It also has the distinction of having the highest suicide rate among the young.
It only goes to show HDI is an unreliable index.
Anyway, what has problems with Islam got to do with Hinduism in Kerala?
Are u saying that Hindusims is better in Kerala because that state has a better HDI? That would be laughable.
Why don`t u look into the secular fabric of kerala and learn some lessons?
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/oct/01iype.htm
Reformation would come to Islam once muslims learn to be tolerant of other religions and other`s view points. It would be instructive to see how Islam has evolved in Kerala as a tolerant religion as compared to rest of the world.
Sridhar

sac,

....... i hate to admit it because it is bad for my reputation, but i really like fareed zakaria even though i think he is a liitle too soft on islam (mind you, i didn`t say muslims - muslims are fine folks just like all other folks)............ his book ``future of democracy`` is simply wonderful even though it has failed to provide me with any ammunition against this insidious ideology that is killing us ............. fareed is being touted as a future ``secretary of state`` ! .... imagine! ......... imagine a muslim wine critic who at 28 gets to be the managing editor of ``foreign affairs``......... i hope i can find a son-in-law like him one day even if it means increasing my wine expenditure !

........ anyway, i tried to read manji`s book but (and i hope the usual suspects are not listening) it did not really hold my attention - finished it in two quick sittings and said, ``so what ?``......... it was not the lack of scholarship - god knows, i ain`t no scholar - it was just too superficial, too contrived, too shallow .......... i could have written this book after a bottle or two of cheap wine!

nevertheless, we are doomed !

Bina, I almost bought this book. It seems Manji is too emotional about her points of view, which is enough to raise a brow and make one say: OKAY....thank you.

I seriously disagree with her views for few simple reasons; she mis-spelled the Qur`an, and the fact that it was never `Islam` that discriminated `against` Jews and Christians but the `Muslims`, and for valid reasons that are already mentioned in the previous interacts.

So, yeah, the book definitely sounds like a market product.

Thanks for the thoughtful article.

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Half my grandpa`s Punjabi speaking village died fighting as members of the British Army in WWII, trying to beat the German forces. If it wasn`t for our Muslim desi ancestors, roughing it out as cannon fodder in the British Army, Hitler would be running Tel Aviv today. I have yet to meet a single gora North American who had more relatives fighting in WWII than I did. And Manji has the audacity to talk about, ``Muslim complicity in the Holocaust.”
*************************

Paging arjun_m. Romair has again put his foot in his mouth. According to him WW II was won by his Desi Muslim ancestors. Nevermind that the Indian(Pakistani) casualties were much lesser than even the American ones(Can not even compare Indian casualties to the Soviet casualties). Also Romair compeletely ignores that the Indian army had Sikhs and Gorkhas in large numbers.

Ibn, the skeptic of secularism - may I ask you - which country do you live in? If it`s pakistan, saudi or any other such pure-lands, then don`t bother to reply.

But if you happen to live in the West, please do tell us, because that would really be interesting.

Bina,

Thanks for a great article, forgot to mention that in my previous post.

I haven`t read Manji`s book, but I have visited her website www.muslimrefusenik.com, and from there it is quite apparent where she is coming from. Her website is strewn with references to her `scholastic credentials`. In my experience when a person is so bent on proving that they are smart, it is usually the opposite, they are overcompensating for a shortcoming.

Seems like nowadays the easiest way to get money and fame is to start bashing Islam. Although I am by no man`s definition a devout or practicing muslim, but it still offends me when I see Islam demonized, and for all the wrong reasons. I guess Manji thought that turning into a neo-intellectual and writing a prolonged essay on what is wrong with Islam would get her places, and it certainly has. Her website is a shameless heap of self-promotion, with references to famous people she has met and had her pictures taken with (the behavior of star-struck teens rather than mature intellectuals).

Irfan.

Re:urstruly#47

This is precisely the problem - the ``Islam khatre mein hai`` bogey that is raised whenever there is a rational discussion about the faith. As a hindu, I recognize that my religion has a lot of problems such as caste and ritualism. I get disgusted when I see scenes of temples where people are worshipping live rats. That does not mean that I want my religion to be dead. I want it to be better, more egalitarian and more relevant to my life.

In the same way, discussing the state of Islam today and the way the religion is practiced and interpreted does not mean that people want the religion dead. On the other hand, most people recognize that at its core Islam is a great religion and has a lot to offer to entire humanity, not just to muslims. Currently some people have hijacked the religion and are misinterpreting it to create the specter of global terrorism where people are getting beheaded and suicide bombers are killing innocent people even in mosques of other sects. In addition, in the past century, the Islamic world has slided into general decandance without democracy, civil liberties, scientific temper or cultural accomplishments. Why is it not appropriate to talk about this and come up with a way to get out of this mess?

``There we go again. Another educated elite muslim, another ``skeptic of secualrism``, another apologist.


Indeed, another educated Muslim, another `skeptic` of the circular secularism, and another `apology`. I don`t accept the conclusion of secularism begins I don`t buy its premise.

``Like Hamidm said - verily, muslims are doomed.``

Beyond chowk I wouldn`t attribute much intelligence to Hamidm. If you want to be on the same horse, by all means, saddle up, partner.

--Ibn

Mordant_Muslim, Urstruly, Hamidm,Amit, Mohar, ballukhan etc

talk is cheap why dont you do something to help improve the lot of the poor, like anil has done, rather than look for religous or secular messiahs

Mordant_Muslim, Urstruly, Hamidm,Amit, Mohar, ballukhan etc

talk is cheap why dont you do something to help improve the lot of the poor rather than look for religous or secular messiahs

Mordant_Muslim, Urstruly, Hamidm,Amit, Mohar, ballukhan etc

talk is cheap why dont you do something to help improve the lot of the poor rather than look for religous or secular messiahs

``Ibn, the skeptic of secularism - may I ask you - which country do you live in? If it`s pakistan, saudi or any other such pure-lands, then don`t bother to reply.``

I live in one of those `western` countries.

--Ibn

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sridhar

I cant help it if you cant read a post straight.

I said islam cannot be reformed by an individual`s effort. why dont you give it a shot try changing the quran and see how many follow you, take hamidm along if you like but I think he is too smart to go on this errand.

islamic societies can only be changed through education and socio economic development. The way Kerala has with little money, and the way the west has over the past few centuries. the so called reformation of martin luther created an even more antisemitic christianity and led to a return to a literal interpretation of the testaments, that is what is meant by a return to fundamentals and it is from there that we get the term Fundamentalist.

HDI might be an unreliable index for you but it isnt so for economists. Lastly I never claimed industrial unrest doesnt take place in Kerala, just as it does in other socialist countries.

The problem is its easy to write books and drink wine and its difficult to go out and spread literacy, education and health care in third world societies. as long as that doesnt happen ignorance, bigotry and fundamentalism will reign as they did in the west and india for millenia.

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